Forum Post: If You Think Unions Are Bad...
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 13, 2012, 5 a.m. EST by TrevorMnemonic
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“Let me tell you about ways in which unions have improved workers lives: weekends; breaks at work, including lunch breaks; paid vacation; sick leave; Social Security; minimum wage; Civil Rights Act/Title VII, which prohibits employer discrimination; 8-hour work day; overtime pay; child labor laws; Occupational Safety & Health Act; 40-hour work week; Worker's Compensation; Unemployment Insurance; pensions; workplace safety standards and regulations; employer health care insurance; collective bargaining rights for employees; wrongful termination laws; age discrimination; Employment Act of 1967; whistleblower protection laws; Employee Polygraph Protection Act; Veteran's Employment and Training Services; compensation increases and evaluations; raises; sexual harassment laws; Americans With Disabilities Act; holiday pay; employer dental, life, and vision insurance; privacy rights; pregnancy and parental leave; military leave; the right to strike; public education for children; Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011; and laws ending sweatshops in the United States.
This is a partial list. We are talking about a movement whose basis is social and economic justice. I don’t understand what is going on in this country, except that it is an effort— they call it “Right to Work”—it’s about an effort to create a “Right to Work for Less.” A “Right to Less Benefits.”
Congressman Dennis Kucinich stood up strongly in the face of the full scale attack on unions and workers that is taking place in Congress and across the country. Speaking at a hearing of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Kucinich reminded his colleagues that unions are responsible for a long list of workplace rights that all Americans benefit from.
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=278750
If you think unions are bad and are somehow ruining the economy, you are falling for GOP propaganda. You also have to take into account that unionized labor only makes up 6.9% of the private sector, a record low in many years. If you hate unions, go work at Foxconn.
The assault on unions is an assault on the American worker.
A worker, who stands on his own, has little power, especially within an economic system that has a "normal" unemployment rate of 5%, against his employer when it comes to setting his wage and benefits.
unions are with OWS.
Yes they came around after a couple months. Here in my city union reps came out and protested with us.
All unions shall be with you on the May day to make the history.
Great post ,Watch all the Scabs come crawling out of there holes.
Excellent post. Thank you.
See, just because I don't support Obama doesn't mean I'm a bad guy. We share a lot of the same ideals, the only difference is I agree with the ACLU that Obama has committed war crimes and has done much to damper our civil liberties.
"I'm not disgusted at President Obama personally. It's President Obama's policies on civil liberties and national security issues I'm disgusted by." - ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero
I don't think you're a bad guy. I just think you have blinders on, and can't see the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is that the Obama administration is a continuation of the Bush war legacy. Believe me, I see the threat of a Romney or Santorum presidency. Which is exactly why I do not support them in any way and speak out against their bullshit.
The bigger picture is the Supreme Court appointments coming up. I have no issue with you about your assessment of Obama, though I feel it is too infused with hyperbole. My issue is that by not voting for him, you in effect do vote for Romney or Santorum, who are not only much worse, but would also pack the court with fascists, and that it is a danger that can't be ignored in good conscience.
I hear ya. But I think your not voting for a third party president is why we will continually have Obama's and Bush's. That argument goes both ways. Haha. Vote Obama if you want. I'm not trying to stop anyone from voting for who they want. I just want people to be aware that all the problems about the US are not directly related to the GOP, but a majority of them are.
I think we really need a third party. I think we should work damned hard to make one that's vibrant and powerful and can win elections. Until that mission is accomplished, however, we have the reality of the present to deal with, and voting for a non-viable third party candidate today is, by default, a de facto vote to pack the court.
I'll let my voting record show thank you
Unions are key to a thriving middle class. But some in the 1% do not like the trouble a thriving middle class causes. We are much easier to control when we are disorganized, fighting each other, and needy.
Median wages are the same as they were in the 70s, when the ruling class decided that this whole middle class thing was for the birds.
We need to quit fighting each other and look up and recognize our real enemy. Then we need more organization and more union members. All jobs should be union jobs. "Union Made in America" would be a wonderful thing to see more of.
Lets get the money out of our government, while we're at it. Votes not bucks should be running things. And there are some very well to do people and corporations they hide behind who are in the rears with owed taxes, big time. And we need to revoke the loop holes that THEY created to make robbing us blind legal.
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
what does "2010 never again" mean?
Also I'm glad to see we agree on something. I remember our last run in you were kind of a heckler because I do not support Obama.
In 2008 Obama was swept in by a whole bunch of voters enthused by hope and change. Righties immediately sand bagged his ass and only some, not a lot, of hope and change came to fruition.
So a few million snotty, petulant, ignoramuses didn't vote in 2010. Which gave the President and the world a teabag congress and several states Governors and legislators who hate government, unions and the people, creating the total fucking mess we see now with "Weeper" Boner and WI Gov Walker. Really Bad consequences, from a historically stupid 2010 voting blunder.
30+ years of RW corruption and entrenchment can't be reversed in 1 1/2 years. Now, because of 2010, it will take even longer.
Unite and Win! Unite and Win! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Ah I see. I would have to agree that everyone should get out and vote smart no matter what the situation.
I just watched this speech Santorum gave, it was probably one of the scariest speeches I've ever heard in my life. He kept talking like a preacher and talking about instilling the law of God, which seems to be bigoted from Santorum's words, in our laws in our country.
It was fucked up. But yeah there are a ton of clowns like him in office now. They want to force their version of their religion on people. It's fucked up. Reminds me of the fascist clown's that want to put their religion's Sharia Law into effect.
1st Amendment. No law shall be made respecting a religion.
Freedom from religion.
This Con primary is an excuse to cover, smear and pummel. They don't expect a win.
Despite a less than reliable base, Obama remains a shoe in.
The FAA bill that was passed by the Senate last week and now goes to the House is anti-union. Many here are aware of the measure and it's implications for union workers in the airline industry. That being said, here are a couple of links:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/06/senate-passes-faa-bill_n_1258430.html
http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/2473-Senate-Passes-FAA-Bill-With-Anti-Union-Language
That FAA bill will be a jobs boon to this country. It will create a whole new industry. The increased productivity will send wages through the roof.
And don't forget that to get some jobs, you MUST join the union. Like the teachers in Georgia. You can not be a teacher w/o being a union member.
Bear in mind that unions only exist because business owners have tried to oppress workers' rights. In an ideal situation, where social justice exists, unions would be unnecessary.
I got you some flowers.
Unions can be and sometimes are corrupted like any other institution. What you state is true. They have great value. Managed well, they can be a valuable representative for the employed. However, with this power, they can also overreach and become abusive. Even to their own membership. Blindly supporting unions can be irresponsible. They need to be held to the same standards that we should be holding to companies, our government and many other institutions.
I live in a right to work state and it is not the end of the world. In fact it allows for the democratic process and keeps unions from becoming too powerful, which is something that has happened in the past. And I am not anti union. When i worked for an employer where there was a union, I joined because I was reaping the benefit of having one. Then I worked for a company where the employees had voted not to unionize, and the company treated them fairly in response.
However, I am also aware that there is a powerful and well funded group that has the goal of stripping unions of power and attempting to outlaw them. I think it does behoove us to know who they are and to strip their power through votes against them or boycotts of their companies as appropriate.
What on earth gives you the idea that unions can become "too powerful"?? That is the most absurd and ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Unions are run by good people, I've worked in around and for them my whole life. They are mostly thankless, working for very little out of the goodness of their hearts just to provide representation for the working class. To say these people are capable of corruption is to say there are no good people left in the world.
History. Read it. It might surprise you that the leadership of a union can be taken over by criminals, that then coerces union members.
Whether it is a church, a union, a government....anything.....when you put people in charge and give them power, eventually some person will abuse that power in their self interest. It is why we have a government in three parts: checks and balances.
That's two parts.
Legislative, executive, judicial
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This only pertains to public employee unions.
Why are they necessary?
Unions exist to protect workers from unfair and oppressive management. Who is it that unionized public employees need protection from?
Is it the same people most public sector union supporters want to run healthcare?
Seems odd, doesn't it?
It's obvious public sector unions exist solely to funnel taxpayer money into the dnc's coffers via campaign "donations."
All this does is corrupt the system further, make public services less effective and more expensive than it needs to be, and allows the perversion of bargaining since most of the time the union is bargaining with the same pols they helped get into office.
It is insane.
FDR knew it was insane. Forget me, was HE wrong?
(remember, this is only about public sector unions)
I would consider a lot of politicians to be oppressive management.
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Today unions cause more problems than they solve:
People come from around the world to attend university in the US. They are free to pick from among the best that they can get into.
When was the last time someone moved to Detroit, Philadelphia, or Atlanta because they have good public primary and secondary schools?
The teachers’ unions have done more to hurt the future of children in these cities than any other organization including the local gangs. The unions own the local officials that write the rules and set the salaries. It is an irredeemably corrupt conspiracy.
For education the US is among the top three nations in the world in cost per student. Because of Unions and the Gov public education monopoly we rank 27 th in math and science. This statistic is even sadder when we realize that the poorest among us are subject to the worst union-run schools. The rich can afford private schools that go out of business if they do a lousy job (The Obama children go to Sidwell Friends at $32k per year) .
Let me tell you about ways in which unions have improved workers lives: weekends; breaks at work, including lunch breaks; paid vacation; sick leave; Social Security; minimum wage; Civil Rights Act/Title VII, which prohibits employer discrimination; 8-hour work day; overtime pay; child labor laws; Occupational Safety & Health Act; 40-hour work week; Worker's Compensation; Unemployment Insurance; pensions; workplace safety standards and regulations; employer health care insurance; collective bargaining rights for employees; wrongful termination laws; age discrimination; Employment Act of 1967; whistleblower protection laws; Employee Polygraph Protection Act; Veteran's Employment and Training Services; compensation increases and evaluations; raises; sexual harassment laws; Americans With Disabilities Act; holiday pay; employer dental, life, and vision insurance; privacy rights; pregnancy and parental leave; military leave; the right to strike; public education for children; Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011; and laws ending sweatshops in the United States.
The hammer was a useful tool for thousands of years but has been all but replaced by the pneumatic nail gun. There are still some hammers around but they are largely obsolete for the big important jobs. The same is true with unions in the US. They have been replaced by modern labor laws, the rise of professional employment, instant communications, and global competition. The last bastion of the union is in Gov where they can bribe and bully state, local, and federal governments, but even that is changing.
My town used to have the worst trash pick-up service you can imagine. It was expensive, they frequently did not show up and when they did rubbish and crushed trash cans lined the streets in the wake of their service.
8 years ago the city fired the union workers and hired a private hauler. The cost went down, the people are actually nice to us, they put the cans up on the sidewalk after they are emptied, and I swear that if I cut up an automobile and put it out front they would figure a way to get it in that truck. The workers make more than the union guys did (mainly because three of them do the work of six union guys). And this is all because unlike the union guys they know that if they do a lousy job the city just fires them and finds a better service.
You're suggesting your story means that all union workers are assholes and don't do good work? It seems that is what you're trying to imply.
Hammer's are still greatly needed in today's world. Look at a carpenter.
I don't agree with unions on everything, but they have done more good than anytime they have done bad.
I'll quote Dennis Kucinich here with an example of what I mean, "When the teamsters wanted to drill in Alaska I voted against that, so it's not like I'm a slam dunk with unions on every issue."
Can we live without the expletives?
The workers are not the problem. The problem is the corrupt and greedy union organization and their control over government.
Sure hammers are still around by they are only used to drive a fraction of the nails, and even nails have been replaced with screws in many applications. By any measure hammers are obsolete.
Not only have unions become obsolete but some of the remaining hangers-on are doing great harm. The example of the union-run public school monopolies cannot be overstated. They are harming little kids in ways that will affect them for the rest of their lives. They are stealing a good education from them.
How do private sector unions control the government?
Use facts and links to back your claims, please.
What about public sector unions (NEA, AFT, AFGE, AFL-CIO)? Are they allowed to control the Gov?
Answer my first question.
Also provide links to back your claim about public sector unions controlling the government. Did public sector unions make the bailouts, the patriot act, and wars happen too?
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Unions are a disaster, they reduce my dividends and my bonuses.
Lets be honest about this,
if a union miner is killed in a poorly designed mine, he is replaceable
just like my great-great-grandfather's farm workers were in alabama in 1860
You are being facetious. I like the chuckle you gave me.
How do unions reduce your dividend and bonus earnings?
please ask JesseHeffran
Do you work 20 hour days? Do you get vacation time if you work full time? Do you make more than 7.25 an hour? Have you been turned down for a job for being black? Did you have the right to education as a child? Is sweat shop labor legal in America?
Let me tell you about ways in which unions have improved workers lives: weekends; breaks at work, including lunch breaks; paid vacation; sick leave; Social Security; minimum wage; Civil Rights Act/Title VII, which prohibits employer discrimination; 8-hour work day; overtime pay; child labor laws; Occupational Safety & Health Act; 40-hour work week; Worker's Compensation; Unemployment Insurance; pensions; workplace safety standards and regulations; employer health care insurance; collective bargaining rights for employees; wrongful termination laws; age discrimination; Employment Act of 1967; whistleblower protection laws; Employee Polygraph Protection Act; Veteran's Employment and Training Services; compensation increases and evaluations; raises; sexual harassment laws; Americans With Disabilities Act; holiday pay; employer dental, life, and vision insurance; privacy rights; pregnancy and parental leave; military leave; the right to strike; public education for children; Equal Pay Acts of 1963 & 2011; and laws ending sweatshops in the United States.
please ask JesseHeffran
You are a hard person.
Well thankfully many federal employees have unions even though it seems somewhat wrong since citizens, who pay them, have no say in their benefits or compensation, which are in the majority of the cases, far better than most citizens have.
GO DC!!!!
We need much more and larger government until everyone has a federal union job!
private sector unions are justified, though the government needs to keep the field balance (i.e. Boeing not allowed to move to SC). But how do you justify public sector unions where the democrats are in the tank for giving them whatever they want and they are breaking the states budgets with their pensions.
Could you use specific examples so I can better answer your question?
I think it was Connecticut's Gov. that agreed to a deal with the state union last year where current state workers agreed to a wage freeze for 2 years followed by 3 percent increases for 9 years and a no layoff pledge for 4 years. For a state with a budget deficit, the union has them by the balls. Labor costs, which are probably a huge chunk of their budget, cannot be touched.
Unless they turn their budget around, there is a good chance that once that 4 year no layoff pledge is over they will start laying people off to compensate for those 9 years of 3% wage increases. And those laid off won't be the least productive workers, they will be the newest.
I am not anti-union at all, I used to be in one. But this is just one way that union action can backfire. In this case at the expense of the newest workers.
The topic of discussion was mainly for private sector unions since they get their funding through products and sales, completely different from tax payer dollars.
I am not familiar enough with problems in Connecticut to offer a solution. But here in my state, as of this year, we have a state surplus of 414 million. because our local government doesn't pass laws that put itself in a situation like Connecticut seems to be in. That is the biggest step. I'm sure the problems in Connecticut are not due to the union but due to the governor and such passing bills that don't work out too well. One solution come up with in my state about a year or so ago to cover spending was a 2% tax increase on restaurant dining. Sales have not gone down in restaurants either and we have that surplus now. Last month my state recently implemented an income tax cuts plan.
I think passing HR 2990 would be a good step to create funding for the country which could be used to also help states in trouble as well as actually lower federal income taxes.
Also unions are not perfect, but they've done much more good than they have ever done bad.
As Dennis Kucinich has said himself, "The teamsters wanted to drill in Alaska and I voted against that, so it not like I'm a slam dunk on everything with unions."
in public sector unions, the union members are forced to pay dues, the dues are used for political lobbying and elections (almost 100% to get democrats elected). The government (legislation, government) then is on one side of the bargaining table the union on the other. But the elected officials have been helped in their election efforts by the very people they are negotiating with.
Stop trying to sell unions.
If they were so great,,,, everyone would want to join one.
Your selling a dead cat.
(George and I work the same union job. I'm proud of what I do in the factory. I do quality work. George stands around and picks his nose all day. George gets paid the same union wage as I do. I hate George.)
Congrats, you are falling for fascist GOP propaganda.
Go work at Foxconn or a sweat shop in China and try again to tell me how unions and labor laws suck.
If unions were very good,,,, EVERYONE would want to join one. You dont make a good case.
(In 2011, the union membership rate--the percent of wage and salary workers who were members of a union--was 11.8 percent, essentially unchanged from 11.9 percent in 2010, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. The number of wage and salary workers belonging to unions, at 14.8 million, also showed little movement over the year. In 1983, the first year for which comparable union data are available, the union membership rate was 20.1 percent and there were 17.7 million union workers.)
Your status of 2010 compared to 2011 doesn't have a case against unions. Remember we still have weekends, over time, and all the other good things unionized labor achieved.
Republicans in New Hampshire are trying to get rid of lunch breaks being required by law. The GOP also wants to get rid of unions. Hmmm.... Go work in China and tell me how terrible labor laws and unions are for America.
Why would you suggest anyone go to China? We are in America and Americans dont like unions. If Americans agreed with YOU then that number would be 99% work in unions. As you can see your 99%'rs, dont agree with you.
Big business does not like unions. Which is why so much industry has been moved overseas where people don't have labor laws and work in poor conditions where they are mistreated and taken advantage of.
Foreign countries with massive poverty levels and poor working conditions don't really have labor laws or regulations.
And yes, some regulations are not good. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about labor laws that protect the workers' rights and give them good working conditions and benefits. I'm not talking about the type of regulations that make it difficult for small businesses to operate and trade agreements that send jobs overseas. I would agree that some regulations need to be reworked and improved.
But you're suggesting getting rid of all regulation and labor laws.
In what post did I to get rid of regulation and labor laws? Regulations and labor laws are in every state and those that have NO UNIONS. There are federal regulations too. There is still a lot of manufacturing in America. There is still a lot of companies that pay well. They must pay well to compete for good workers. Dont take this as fact,,, but,, I would guess there are far more companies that pay equal too or more than what a union would ask for. When I was younger I worked some factory jobs and never once thought I needed a union or to pay union dues. With only 11% of the workforce in unions you have to ask your self how so many communities across the country that have factories also have expanding new homes development. Lots of factory people in our area have very nice houses, cars, etc. Saying that we need unions is hog wash.
You can pick your ass, George can pick his ass, but you apparently can't pick George's ass.
Tell George to get off his butt and get to work. Your supervisor should do the same.
Supervisor is in the parking lot drinking beer and smoking dope. Probably with one of the union bosses. Havent you been watching the news?
I missed that part.
I know you missed that part. You were sleeping on the line.
You're funny!
Absolutely. People cannot be trusted to make good decisions for themselves about membership in a representative union, so we need to make that decision for them. They are attacking unions by letting people decide to join or not.
I personally have that ability already with my work. I can choose to pay dues or not. Also I'm not just talking about the "right to work" bill which is what I'm assuming you're talking about. I'm talking about this massive attack against unionized labor by the GOP all together.
Speaking at a hearing of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Kucinich reminded his colleagues that unions are responsible for a long list of workplace rights that all Americans benefit from.
And look where they have taken us. Attempting to artificially inflate the value of the work that people do and adding regulations that impede efficiency DESTROY businesses in the long term. You want an 8 hour day with breaks and benefits, make yourself skilled enough or valuable enough for it to be BENEFICIAL to a business to hire YOU over someone else or you take what you have to offer elsewhere.
Ignorant.
Like I said, Go work at Foxconn and tell me how awesome it is to not have labor law regulations.
I don't NEED "Labor Law Regulations". I did the things in life to make myself valuable enough for an employer to want to treat me very so as to keep me. That makes my employer money. He has the right to treat me however he wants and I have the right to take my services elsewhere. But I guess you sheeple don't understand that philosophy. Poor you need "protection" from big, evil, intelligent people.
That is one of the dumbest anti-union justifications I have ever heard.
Like I said, go to countries where they don't have labor laws. Ever notice that companies here in America love utilizing poor working conditions in those countries. Apple for example goes through Foxconn, check the link I shared. You think they would love to have corps like that here in the US. Then they could save on shipping costs.
This is the USA. We don't utilize sweat shop labor in our country because we have standards. They're called labor laws and regulations.
And that is why our jobs are going bye bye. That's what happens whe you ARTIFICIALLY inflate the value of labor making it cost more than it has to.
We have labor laws because our country believes in human rights.
How to reduce the number of jobs sent overseas. Pass labor laws into trade agreements.
The USA is one of the biggest markets for sales, if not the biggest. The job market will never go bye bye. We make too much money for the 1%.
AGAIN with telling employers what their workers are WORTH. Artificial inflation of a worker's wealth is a path to destruction.... look at the American labor market. now you believe we should tell companies in other countries what is "right". You want foreign countries to make labor more "valuable" than it really is. Try this. Every time we make laws/regulation to "make things better for the worker", especially pay wise, then that higher pay really isn't worth all that much. Here is a novel idea.... Manufacturers DO NEED labor. If they do not offer to treat you as you feel you should be treated, or offer to pay you what you THINK your services are worth, don't produce for them. Go elsewhere. if nobody will work for them, they will NEED to offer more compensation and better treatment.