Forum Post: If native americans could function without money and are for the earth, then why can't we?
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 3, 2011, 10:36 p.m. EST by warriorjoe7
(232)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If native americans could function without money and care for the earth, then why can't we?
And no don't even tell me that they were barbaric and uncivilized. Just because their civilizations were not exactly like ours did not mean they were uncivil animals. They lived a WAY WAY WAY more sustainable lifestyle than we ever could with the system that we are trapped in right now.
You know what's really important? Not possessions, not houses, not ownership of land... personal relationships and all that goes with having solid ones. If you belonged to a tribe you were going to get all the physical things you needed, and the one thing that makes people thrive is a sense of belonging. Look at an indigenous tribe in Papua New Guinea, they have nothing modern and they can still be happy in life, because being happy has nothing to do with what we own. I know it's hard to believe because we've been brainwashed to thin that we will be happier with this product or with that. Its like the rich are coke dealers and once they get us to buy into the fact that their coke (consumerism) is the answer to our happiness we get hooked, to their advantage, and to the detriment of the earth.
The only advantages to our modern way of living that have come about is that our physical health is better (at the expense of our menatl health because of the craziness of the system) and that we are able to travel great distances in short amounts of times (but wouldnt we be better off if we had the strongest relationships all in one place... where we grew up.)
I don't endorse capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, theism or any of the large -isms. People should be ruled by someone that they know, someone who has to look them in the face every day. I would call this tribalism. Now we don't have to go back to playing cowboys and indians. We still have modern technology! Surely there has to be a way to combine the indigenous way of living with modern technology incorporated. Maybe we can learn something from the ancient ways of our native brothers and sisters.
The Northwest tribes had the potlatch. This is where we get the word "potluck". The federal government made them stop giving things away because they wanted the natives to starve or come to them for food. Anything to interrupt their continuity.
They used hypnosis as a part of their tribal structure. Relationships were naturally made the most important part because they depended on one another for survival. It was also a part of keeping their oral histories, which they used the WInter Solstice to create some chronological accuracy with. The unconscious mind or use of it in European society was the reason for the crusade. To abolish it.
We can learn a great deal from them, but most Americans are too scared of themselves to acknowledge the unconscious mind because of genetic memory from the crusades. If we we not afraid to work with the unconscious mind, we would find that doctors and psychologists would probably be too afraid to offer the treatments required to simulate what Native people did in order to make a modern semblance of tribal society.
My wife is an indian, her uncle is a medicine man. He injured his foot and instead of going to see the "scared" doctors, he decided to heal his foot traditionally. He lost half his leg and almost his life, he was fortuante that the "scared" doctors that he initially didn't go to were available. This stupid stereotype of indians being these mystical creatures is false.
I have been told by native people and i tend to agree that 'indian' is a racist term. People living in India are 'Indians'. Yet you have the Washington 'red skins' the Cleveland 'Indians' and the Chicago 'Blackhawks' in sports which is tantamount to the culture basically endorsing and promoting racism as a socially acceptable thing.
I'm not accusing you of being racist, many people use the term, it is unfortunately pretty common, but the majority of natives i know feel it to be disrespectful.
[Removed]
The Indigenous medicine people have great respect for aspects of modern medicine IF they are using their cognitive processes. Anger and fear really get in the way otherwise.
Indigenous medicine is best for prevention but can work on aspects of immunology and mental performance as well as stimulating cell growth where needed. It is subtle and often takes time to work.
Their herbal knowledge was severely damaged by the genocide here because that was carried differently that with their general oral histories. Many of those people were lost quite quickly in the colonization. If there were herbal medicines more effective than those we know today, this is why.
Yes, it is false, we are all mystical creatures.
The fact that you don't know what your mind is doing for a considerable portion each night while you are sleeping leaves the door open on that possiblity.
I have to ask what qualifies you as such a source on Native American ancient medicinal practices. Are you one of those new age hippies that just knows? Or are you going to claim your great grandmother was a cherokee princess, so that makes you an expert on "Indian" secret ways. Really because I am so tired of the hippie indian stereotype that Indians lived in utopia till the white man came.
I was raised by Medicine people. They have provided amazing demonstrations of what their very deep forms of hypnosis can do. Somnambulism, look it up.
Of course no one knows because it used to be men with rifles would show up and kill the Indians if they showed any sign of using their traditional spiritual powers.
Really thats a historical fact? Every man with a rifle would shoot traditional indians, please name me all the times in history this happened with specifics. You can't because the stereotype of every Indian massacre being a wounded knee or Black Kettle massacre were not as common as modern hippies think. In fact in North America mass slaughter of Indians was very uncommon, but you won't beleive someone who actually knows something on the subject, just make up your own history. "Medicine" people what tribe is that?
You are using too many cognitive distortions to reasonably continue. I will answer all and point out the distortions. You are restating and misrepresenting what I actually said.
"Really thats a historical fact?"
Distortions 1, 2
Oral histories of Indigenous people. Books are easier to burn than people and they used to burn those too.
Every man with a rifle would shoot traditional indians, please name me all the times in history this happened with specifics. "
Distortions 1, 2
You cannot be serious. I shall demonstrate with a counter question. How many times did that happen and it was not written down. Local Indignous people were hunted from the back of pickup trucks until 1925 in this part of California. It's not written down.
You can't because the stereotype of every Indian massacre being a wounded knee or Black Kettle massacre were not as common as modern hippies think.
Distortions 1, 2, 4, 9
In fact in North America mass slaughter of Indians was very uncommon, but you won't beleive someone who actually knows something on the subject, just make up your own history. "Medicine" people what tribe is that?
The Chumash Coastal Band of California Indians. I know more about them and their missing past than anyone you can find Native or otherwise. You assume I state mass slaughter. That did happen but no more than about 15 people at a time. Most often it was the lone Indian. There were manhunts here for the reasons I said in 1876, all covered. I've made 2 hours of video about it with many facts, it's online. Not likely you are interested in substance of fact tho. There is also an element of 12 as well.
COGNITIVE DISTORTIONS
Oral histories of indiginous people? The same ones that talk of Bigfoot, witches, and all other superstitions.
I am from Norhtern California and I would really like to know what example of indians getting hunted in pickup trucks are you refering to in 1925, I know Ishi was found around that time. Ishi as I recall, although his family was killed by white men, was welcomed and fed in the 1920's. The shocking thing with him was he was the last wild Indian on record. That story alone proves "every" man with a rifle did not shoot indians. THe rest of your statement is not worth reading.
I realize that knowledge of unconscious programming is not worth anything to you.
How does it feel to fit in with those that work to protect the secrecy that is used to destroy the constitution? You fit in nicely with the elements peoples heads from the facts of paedophilia and mass murder of 9-11.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/09/1024519/-Threats-from-the-Invisible-Industry?showAll=yes&via=blog_481394 http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/ http://boingboing.net/2011/02/18/hbgarys-high-volume.html http://revolutionmessaging.com/2011/09/21/how-to-weed-out-astroturf-identifying-fake-public-support/ http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/16173.html http://veracitystew.com/2011/02/25/astroturfing-the-season-of-disinformation-video/ http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/04/25/cv-election-truthy-memes-twitter.html
A fitting response, because I disagree with you I caused 9-11. Because I pointed out that you really have no clue what your talking about I caused 9-11. I still haven't got this bullshit "shooting indians from pickups" answer. Typical OWS supporter clueless and angry about nothing. I got you pegged to a tee and you know it hahahahahaha
Laughing at mass murder is not nice. Here are facts about 9-11. This is not the usual. Facts here.
http://algoxy.com/conc/fema_deception.html
You've provided nothing whatsoever to counter what is basically a well known fact of genocide.
I'm so far from typical that you cannot really call me a supporter of OWS. I do support people that are willing to go into the streets and do things that bring attention to the corruption.
It is very likely you cannot even recognize law such as the constitution or civilizations need for it. Ignorance such as you display is a great aid to the nwo.
[Removed]
Did we not have an almost identical conversation earlier today? For someone with such a poor understanding of Native American culture, you seem to enjoy throwing around terms like "Cherokee princess" and "hippie" and figuring out ways to combine them between new strings of words.
What could you possibly hate so much about the idea that first nations people were spiritual and peaceful? Or do you just hate hippies so much you can't acknowledge the influence of Native American culture on the movement?
It's funny I made this comment before I got into it with you. Little did I know an hour later a hippie would be claiming to be an expert on native americans becaue they were a quarter indian. I know you were going to say Cherokee too. Like I said you guys are a dime a dozen
Penicillin, a wonder drug discovery, by a "white man".
oh wow, so now all white men are superior to indians (sarcasm)
"We can learn a great deal from them, but most Americans are too scared of themselves to acknowledge the unconscious mind because of genetic memory from the crusades."
Not to be rude, but that doesn't make much sense. Vast majority of crusaders died or were assimilated. Very few came back to Europe and I really doubt the most shell shocked went on to reproduce. We're mostly the progeny of those that stayed home.
Hmmm, you describe crusaders and what they did not do.
I describe the populations too traumatized by the crusaders actions to recognize why they acted in such a way.
In the crusades that are a part of written history, the crusaders did not leave Europe except for crusade into the middle east.
But I would agree that the populations of today are the "progeny of those that stayed home". My point is that their ancestors are also trauma victims of the crusades and have passed down a fear of recognizing the unconscious mind for what it is.
[Removed]
http://www.pvpulse.com/en/news/world-news/bolivia-set-to-pass-historic-law-of-mother-earth-which-will-grant-nature-equal-rights-to-humans#.TtMnNw27aLT.facebook this is how the indigenous spirits lead!!!!
like
because they woulda done stuff like this... http://www.pvpulse.com/en/news/world-news/bolivia-set-to-pass-historic-law-of-mother-earth-which-will-grant-nature-equal-rights-to-humans#.TtMnNw27aLT.facebook
this is the right thing to do, indigenous people have a lot to offer, lets listen
please spread it whereever u can justme
indigenous people need to present the world with a new system of government (better than we have now) based on what you had before the white faces arrived. Make the system carefully to include everybody with fairness, Indians have a legitimate claim to these lands better than the Jews claim to Israel. When the fed gov collapses next year the Indians can present their plans for a new government and currency to go with it. In this way they can get their land back, all of it, except for a few reservations for the money lovers to live in. Design a new gov (before next years collapse into Marshal law, and present it to American people to vote in by popular vote. If the system of government is good, this slavery that the Europeans brought you will finally end. The Indian nation will live in peace. Pry for peace byt comit to remove evil from around you.
jjuussttmmee wrote: indigenous people need to present the world with a new system of government (better than we have now) based on what you had before the white faces arrived.END-----
The Indigenous American people contributed massively to the US constitution. In fact, the white faces could not even use some of the very best of it. They had to allow their belief systems to dominate to defend from the unreasonable fears they learned.
jjuussttmmee wrote Design a new gov (before next years collapse into Marshal law, and present it to American people to vote in by popular vote.END----
Article 5 is designed exactly for that. It is the ultimate democratic control over the republic.
Here is strategy that will do exactly as you say should be done.
If protesters were directly defending the constitution and doing so coherently under it by demanding it be followed by congress and call a convention, then law enforcement would be in a different position.
They know something is wrong and some do not like it. They cannot do anything like what protesters can do. Their social circle will not allow it under the unconscious fears that social systems have after 9-11. They want to defend the constitution but cannot! If you have a list of crimes by congress relating to 100 years of violation of oath and constitution by failing to call an article 5 convention when requirements were met, and cite that to cops at the steps of congress. They are going to know that your level of law enforcement is exceeding theirs because of their oath and your freedom.
If you are assembled, peaceful and decent, with that strategy, the Occupy act will kick butt and many, more people will support it. A list of what congress has done to evade law and prevent an article 5 convention.
Federal law regulating oath of office by government officials is divided into four parts along with an executive order which further defines the law for purposes of enforcement. 5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office congressional members were required to take before assuming office.
5 U.S.C. 3333 required you to sign an affidavit that you took the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not nor will violate that oath during your tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law,
5 U.S.C. 7311, which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense for anyone employed in the United States Government to “advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government.”,
18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: removal from office, imprisonment, and a fine.
Executive Order 10450 specifies a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
The definition of “advocate” is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311.
According to Executive Order 10450 (and therefore 5 U.S. 7311) any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331 which alters the form of government other than by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311. Such alteration without amendment is criminal violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 and 18 U.S.C. 1918.
In 1939 the supreme court violated Executive Order 10450 specifiing a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311
http://www.foa5c.org/file.php/1/Articles/Coleman.htm
Acts relating to campaign finance are also unconstitutional and comprise “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
CONVENTION PREPARATION http://articlevconvention.org/showthread.php?15-What-initial-amendments-will-improve-and-empower-the-conditions-of-a-convention
About article 5
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Article V conference, Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-other attendee video comments http://vimeo.com/31464745 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
i agree but also I get the feeling like those in power really do not care
No they don't in fact our demise within their profit might be totally okay with some of them. All the more reason to focus on the needed unity.
Check the convention preparation thread I started to gather appreciation for what it means to be ready to amend our constitution.
Our native brothers and sisters live as part of the ecosytem. The same way as human lived 5000 years ago.
"We used to think agriculture gave rise to cities and later to writing, art, and religion. Now the world’s oldest temple suggests the urge to worship sparked civilization."
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text
And the construction techniques got worse and worse as time went on, finally it died out after 3,000 years.
We see stone totems. Icons not edifices of solar and celestial alignment like stonehenge.
People bigger than life and all the deadly fearful creatures of a natural world.
An effort to defend by styling worhip of physical power.
Compare to the South Pacific Islanders or the Native of the Northwest. Their totems were stylizations of frightening mythic figures, mostly faces, expressions.
I see the former as an effort to externalize the focus of worship and the latter to internalize it. Both similar intents. Protection and empowerment.
Conclusion: Internalizing works better.
Then Europeans colonized with externalized imagry depicting spiritual power and persecuted lethally the North West Natives for gathering at potlatch who were only acting for survival and continuity.
Is there a message here?
Long before Europeans landed on these shores the 'Natives' (who were immigrants at some point themselves) built cities. They had architects, stone masons, potters...They had a ruling class and a warrior class, in some areas the 'governing body was matriarchal, they also had slaves.
They had a religious group, which in some cases held sway over 'government'...we, Americans didn't invent the issues we face today, we are repeating them. Other cultures rose and fell, the question is are we falling or are we still on the rise? If we are falling, can we maintain a 'holding action' long enough to forestall the fall?
we already fell, we are on the ground dying, we owe more debt than we can repay in 385 years if we stop borrowing today and paid 100 million dollars a day in interest. We are way past the tipping point. They have built camps to house us when they declare Marshal law and round up the "USELESS EATERS" to be put in German style concentration camps. Boy the US citizens really had their collective heads in the sand on all this. How sad.
Some of us have been 'yelling' for over 40 years. We were ignored, ridiculed, and at times shunned.
The point I was making is that the pattern we are following is visible in our histories.
The city states of ancient times gave way to societies of hunter gatherers as often as they gave way to new forms of governing. Which way shall we finally go? If it is to be a new form of governance, then what form will it take? Or will we simply create a new era of the dark ages?
lets hope it is a "light" age
I am hoping we can adjust our current system to meet the needs of the current age and move forward into 'light'.
our current federal system is a system run by a private company the federal reserve. They manipulate the markets up and down and do insider trading to get huge sums of money. Time for a general strike. Remember a slave has to produce more than it takes to support self to have value as slave. When slaves go on strike they are worth less than the cost of their keep, and will be eliminated
PandoraK wrote: the question is are we falling or are we still on the rise? If we are falling, can we maintain a 'holding action' long enough to forestall the fall?END-----
Good post and point.
Without understanding exactly why our society is failing, we cannot hope to do much. All of these issues are behaviors, and those originate in the mind. Accordingly Occupy the American Psychological Association because they are obviously negligent.
For Christs sake, they should be posting here dammit!
Yeah, they should, shouldn't they? A few moderate voices with some insight would go a long way to reaching understanding.
I was speaking with a young lady yesterday evening and she was telling me that her doctor might have prescribed her placebos for what she termed panic attacks. I asked her if the placebos worked, and she told me until she found out that they weren't real medication they did. I told her first the doctor gave you a name for what was wrong, then he gave you a way to fix it.
What is wrong...it needs a name so we can find a way to fix it.
We're trying but I'm thinking that we're doing it by trial and error.
I think that our populations are doing a number of things unconsciously. One of the most important is dissociation, people are forgetting everything difficult to justify the escape into corporate comfort and false security.
They are dissociating the severity of the environmental damage that is occuring on a daily basis. No wonder the nwo wants to destroy us. Of course they caused the problem so they could, but geeeeeeee, do we have to cooperate so well?
Denial is a pretty comfortable place, until it isn't any longer...some of us haven't been comfortable for a while, some of us are no longer comfortable, some of us are struggling to remain comfortable and some of us may never become uncomfortable.
The only thing I am sure of is, once you've become uncomfortable you can't go back to being comfortable in denial...so the numbers of those expressing, ready to express and will be soon ready to express their discontent are mounting.
Hopefully when we have enough numbers we'll have a plan in place to move forward with, whether it's to adapt our current system to meet our needs or to move into a new system with all the pitfalls inherent to it.
We're going to be amending our constitution. There are no decent proposals for any new systemand America fully knows that by now.
OWS is using art and spiricial acitity to parke civlizition again. That is why OWS does not need dements and just need actions.
go Joe, perhaps the white buffalo has returned and the Indians will get their country back.
Then perhaps you and those that agree with this statement should pack your sorry asses up and move to where your ancestors came from. Lead by example.
i am where my ancestors came from, what is your point? I posted on a different thread and Joe was inspired by what I wrote so he started this thread, I was the first to post and was encouraging him to take the idea and run with it
and where is it that you are located? it cannot be the united States unless you are 100% North American idian, but then again, they can be tracked as coming over the Bering sea, which would make them migratory as well and not "indigenous"
The "American Indians" are immigrants too but from a lot longer ago. No one lived here 15,000 years ago after the meteorite struck in the Yucatan peninsular. I read the DNA results done on Indian populations in the US, and where the DNA came from. But the point is mute really. I champion the Indians rise back to power, how wrong is that for American Indians?. I am in the US and would like to see the Indians develop a replacement form of government BETTER way better than what is now in place, and is fair for everyone, and has the HEART out gov is sorely missing. Local control rather than global (by 15 families control) control which is easier for a small group to control the whole world. When they have a better solution then let them present it to the voting public for ratification by public vote and the reservations will disappear and all the land will be Indian controlled (by gov) land once again. A new fairness will appear and internal problems will shrink (if all is done right) there will be HEART in gov for the first time.
Sorry, I cannot subscribe to that idea as it makes no sense at all. the Indians are not indigenous and therefore do not have a claim to this land either. It does not matter that they were here first, that is moot. the American Indian also conquered lands through war with other tribes and their form of government is as corrupt as any. Explain to me how a place like Cherokee N.C. can have a casino run by the Cherokee tribe and it brings in millions upon millions to the casino and the profits that are to be distributed by the council, yet there is so much poverty amongst the residents there (Cherokee nationals as it is a reservation). Reminds me of OWS, where is the money?
It makes no sense to you because it won't fit into your mind with the other things that are there now. It's ok you can expand your mind if you will open it a little bit. Really thou who cares about land claims? Look to the future and find a way to be happy there, with everyone, living in a fair society. Then design the laws necessary to achieve our dreams. Casinos were a pay back for Indians and it goes against free markets, so for only them to have Casinos is clearly a pay off for something, and wrong!. Good FAIR leadership is needed everywhere. I see an opportunity for the Indian nation to do something good for everyone and themselves, by beginning the design process for a new form of gov. that would be first tested on the reservation then offered to the general public to vote for or against adopting the new set of laws and a new federal government, run by the people not foreign banks. But don't forget if they can keep us divided we will never do anything good for this country. They want us divided, in as many division as they can. Class warfare race warfare religious divisions. This country should stand as one, not a bunch of fractured groups that do constant infighting and have no time to supervise a corrupt government.
Agreed!
They may have used money but we do not. We use "legal tender", money is a commodity that takes time to produce. Legal Tender is printed out of thin air.
Thank you so much for posting that; that is exactly where we need to go... back to the circle.
Its so sad that it seems a majority of Americans can not even fathom an existence outside their greed ridden egos that is based on principles of respect and compassion, not stuffed toys and dollar bills.
All the degrees of separation between people their children and their relatives and other community members... its not natural. You can buy a special potty patch for your dog nowadays so you don't have to walk him down the frightening streets at night... no wonder everyone is so miserable and obsessed with cash, they have nothing else.
Once upon a time there were no fences. More people died early in childhood, natural selection, which provided balance between humans and the environment. When the food became scarce many tribes either moved on or starved out enough so the environment could support the numbers.
Humans have grown in an exponential rate and we will soon have to deal with it.
I would love to belong to a tribe. I would enjoy being able to trust those around me and be able to count on them in times of need but I may have to wait until I get reincarnated.
Money is good. The bad thing is the way it is handled.
Because the tribe in New Guinea know little else. And you can't really want what you don't know or created up to that point.
Overpopulation makes it impossible for us to live the way indigenous people lived but surely we can take inspiration from them and try to blend some of their ways into our own lives.
We do a lot of striving, but I'm not sure what for.
Not only, money, but in history there once was no 'jobs', yet everyone 'worked'. No small part of josephocracy was influenced by the 6 Nations, Iriqouis Federation and other aboriginal structures of governance. They had 'better' Democracy hundreds of years before us. http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Joseph-Solution/307138385979022#!/pages/The-Joseph-Solution/307138385979022 [sorry I can't find the Like button for your Post, only the like button for the Replies???]
Wouldn't a Cooperative be the modern equivalent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative
I think OWS itself could technically be considered a cooperative. And after reading about it, I think it would be possible to build a society around alot of small cooperatives assisting one another. I don't think it would work on a large scale, because it would be harder for everyone to have a voice. But alot of small cooperatives who do business with eachother doesn't seem like a bad idea for the future.
DE-centerlizing control of the people to local areas would throw off the oppression and Tierney of the banks that force us to borrow money to operate the government
Those native Americans did get smart by opening all of the casinos and they are getting their revenge on the white man by taking one dollar at a time. I don't blame them one bit.
I really like this idea. Many studies have shown that people with close relationships with the people around them, makes for a happier and more caring people. We need to wake up again and see how important our connection to the Earth is. We are shielded from our own environment. Shoes for our feet. Umbrellas to protect us from the rain. We need to establish a new and more personal connection with our true mother....Earth.
What happens if I get an Ass like you in my tribe? Can I scalp you ?
sure you can try, or you can just talk out your ass as you are doing now. For you would get your ass whipped.
But in truth I don't think the natives operated that way. I am sure there were disagreements, but they were civilized enough, hell I don't ven think they had the death penalty and they definitely didn't have prison on a large systematic scale.
they didnt seem to have much of anything actually lol!
and yet were surprisingly happy and content with their lives without stuffs
really ? how do you know how happy they were? did they have some kind of telephone poll asking them how happy they were on a scale of 1 - 10? oh yea - they didn't have telephones lol!
http://www.pvpulse.com/en/news/world-news/bolivia-set-to-pass-historic-law-of-mother-earth-which-will-grant-nature-equal-rights-to-humans#.TtMnNw27aLT.facebook warrior joe, please read and share ur sentiments
The first thing we would have to get rid of is individual land ownership. Allowing any person or group to own the land air or water that another person or group needs to survive is slavery.
Who would make my iPhone then?
Machines already make your ipod... what? do you really think that people actually hand make your ipod? Open it up and look at the size of the components. Even with extremely high magnification the human hand of the overwhelming majority is not still enough to do the precision work of putting it together.
So the question then is who might design it? Well i will tell you, the creators of that technology enjoyed designing it. it gave them great joy to do so. I know because I have patent applications myself and I am in the middle of making a new online service. Creating these are fun, and if I was independently wealthy, or I didn't have to worry about money or my basic needs, I would gladly create more. I know tons of technical people who feel the same way. People do not need money to work. They just need there needs met. (disclaimer: some unhealthy people are there to take take take, but tis dysfunction should fade slowly, probably not completely, as we fade into a more stable fair and humane society under a new system.)
And again from my original post..."Surely there as to be a way to combine the indigenous way of living with modern technology incorporated. Maybe we can learn something from the ancient ways of our native brothers and sisters."
First, I like the idea that I'm going to have a lifespan beyond 30 years. And do you know why they only had 30 years? Because life sucked back then. Don't romanticise Native American life. It was hard, very hard. Winters were cold, people starved a lot back then, died of horrible diseases, etc. God forbid you ever get injured for anything other than a scratch. A deep cut only requiring a few stitches in a sanitary hospital today could easily mean an agonising death back then. Women dying in childbirth was commonplace. Childbirth was not a great thing back then, it was the single greatest killer of women.
Now we have money. Money we can trade with anyone in the world. Do you have ANY idea how hard it would be to trade with countries like Japan, if we had to physically send them beads instead of just electronically wiring money? We now have access to all the thoughts and advances of people everywhere in the world. If a scientist in China does a study that furthers our understanding of cancer, we can hear about it, and incorporate it into our own understanding.
It looks lik you didn't read my whole original post so let me fill you in with a repeat... "Now we don't have to go back to playing cowboys and indians. We still have modern technology! Surely there has to be a way to combine the indigenous way of living with modern technology incorporated. Maybe we can learn something from the ancient ways of our native brothers and sisters."
Daennera probably cannot assimilate the implications so ignores them. The unconscious mind controls the conscious capacities. The unconscious mind is what enabled the Indigenous Americans to survive despite the hardship.
When Daennera implies we should trade with Japan at all, Daennera completely misses the point. Native people would not have allowed energy to promote excessive populations. Energy is what enables and promotes populations.
The Indigenous ways of living were dominated by the unconscious. What is important to the unconscious, Love. Love controlled power and in the Indigensous society, power was for the purpose of protecting life. No one would support a leader that did not act with that paradigm. If they did, the tribe would not survive, or do so very poorly.
What we can learn from them is that needs are ALWAYS more important than wants. What the indigenous cannot teach is what the American crusade forbade them to even use in their society. Teaching the unconscious that Love is the purpose of life and that such is the reason wants are always sacrificed for needs because that protects life.
And we still need money to make all that happen. You have a chicken/egg problem here. You want people to trust that by living in this tribalistic way that all their needs will be met, BUT people are going to want to see that all their needs will be met first BEFORE agreeing to give up what they have.
Money is here to stay, and I for one am glad for it. I have no issues with some having more, even obscenely more, than others. I prefer dog-eat-dog over kum-by-ya any and every day.
Besides, without the carrot of ownership, wealth, fame, and glory; who is going to volunteer to do the really hard work in this world? Curing diseases, advancing technology, etc. If I can just dig ditches and have all my needs met, I'm going to do that before devoting 80 hours a week to making the next great advancement for human kind.
Daennera, very glad you've brought your perspective and share them.
You are correct i a couple of important areas, here is one.
"people are going to want to see that all their needs will be met first BEFORE agreeing to give up what they have."
and you are also fairly often correct in this too.
"without the carrot of ownership, wealth, fame, and glory; who is going to volunteer to do the really hard work in this world?"
What is missing in your formula is the fundamental intent of the society that people are a part of. WHY, do we exist, what is our goal?
We assume it is to go to the stars. Our leaders of science have said this and imply it. Why? Because there has been a relinquishment of the knowledge needed to be sustainable. Those saying "we will go to the stars" have decided that they are far too afraid of the unconscious mind to work with it and enable the sacrifices of want for that of needs. Those sacrifices enable sustainability.
Sustainability enables "continuity", survival. Continuity was logically the paramount interest of the Indigenous people.
So what is missing is a recognition of the confusion between wants and needs that has been promoted for profits.
The Indigenous know that nature can deliver devastating blows.
When you are in the dark and starving, freezing brother, you will be singing "kum-by-ya" with those around you just to make it with reason to the next day.
The Indigenous people are survivors and can teach us how to recover that knowledge of the unconscious, but first . . . we must accept it exists.
People weren't singing as their children froze to death. Living totally to survive is no life at all. Our society allows us a life where we can get more than just survival.
There was nothing romantic about the native way of life. NOTHING.
The statement, "Living totally to survive is no life at all." is a generalization and an assumption of another generalization. Firstly there is a point where actions are only to survive and nothing else matters. Secondly there is an assumption that IF we do not have our wants then life is not worth living. Also carried in that part of the statement is an assumption that this aspect of the statement is continous.
Altogether, the statement is a cognitive distortion and cannot be used for decision making.
Life is always worth living, so long as you are striving to improve your position. Once you decide just to live for the sake of breathing, you might as well go jump off a bridge.
Okay, that defines the generalization.
However, how did the amoeba decide that only breathing was enough? Obviously it was enough because things evolved to the point where they thought "Once you decide just to live for the sake of breathing, you might as well go jump off a bridge."
Meaning the thought of de evolving is enough to cause that sentiment.
My point is, what if you thought it was "just breathing" when really there was far more to it but it was all unconscious for you? If you were afraid of the unconscious you might choose to avoid confronting it by deciding to jump off a bridge.
How about the idea that we are all related? To the earth, and everyone and everything which inhabits it. How about the idea that all people are equal, and have something to contribute? That things should not be wasted?
I don't think anyone is suggesting we turn the clock back to the 1500s, but if this society were based on something aside from a culture of materialistic greed... we just might be living in a technological paradise on earth.
Because nature says we are not all born equal, we do not all have equal value. Nature says some will fail and others will succeed. Nature says the goal of the game is to succeed as much as one can, to acquire as many resources as one can to ensure the security of one and one's offspring. Because these laws are what ensures we as a species survives. If you remove competition and failure, we will eventually die off. I guarantee it.
That might be a good description of a monkey; its also a good description of American culture; but human beings are a product of nature and nurture, and native societies have a culture which is quite different.
Its one with less ego, more caring, more desire to help, and a real appreciation of differences between people; and if American children were taught those values, it would overcome human nature quite easily.
Let me bring something to your attention though, this species will be extinct after another 7 generations of rampant planetary exploitation and war. A new way of thinking is not just a fluffy idea, it is a matter of survival.
No, you would send us all into a tail spin of mediocrity. If we're going to survive we need better systems. More advances in science, technology, and medicine. We need people willing to put in the time and effort to make all this happen. And the only way you're going to get someone to give up family time and free time is with compensation.
Compared to people 50 years ago, have all those things, and where are we? Much worse off, looking into a bleak future.
Trying to compensate for a cultural deficit with science and technology is not going to make the world a better place. If you want to call equality mediocrity fine, but remember those words in another few years.
There is more than enough for everyone on this Planet, over a few times, we just need to learn how to share; but one too many people seem convinced that they need to fill their lives with worthless things.
Who is much worse of? Speak for yourself, alot of people are thriving right now and you insult them.
Yes there are one too many people that go a bit overboard with the money thing. But can you blame them? When one illness can cost over a millions dollars, are you really blaming them for getting and keeping as much as they can?
You create the society with the guarantee that we will want for nothing, and THEN those of us practicals will consider joining. Some of us still won't though. Some of us aren't interested in guarantees. We want the freedom to fail and fail hard. Success just isn't as sweet when you have a safety net after all.
That's the difference between you and me. You see, I'm much "better off" than a lot of people, but willing to put the plight of others (and this planet) first. I don't need a Mercedes to compensate for a lack of substance in my life, and I happily live with 3 wonderful friends because it saves on rent and is good company... and has less footprint on the environment.
I appreciate you sound a bit afraid of the idea, but if you cultivate a community of like minded friends, life is not that difficult because you can depend on each other.
Don't want it. It's just not the life for me. It's not exciting enough. Too many rainbows and pink bunnies for me.
Every day I'm bombarded with messages about how we should be working to create this crazily harmonious world where everything is sunshine and rainbows. I guess it never occurs to you folks that there might be a sizeable number of people who don't want that would it?
Love the rainbows and pink bunnies comment.
That's a fair comment, normally I'm not one to hold up a particular way of life and say "my way is better" but being somewhat practical myself, I look into the future, and what is see is that without more rainbows and pink bunnies we are literally doomed.
To answer your question, that is going to change as more and more people are made acutely aware of of the need for a more sustainable system... and the collapse of the west is more than imminent, it is happening right now.
Sustainable is fine. I'm all for saving the planet, greener energy, etc.
I'm not for guaranteeing a certain way of life. Minimum salary, machines will do all the work for us, life will be great! Except some of us would be putting bullets through our brains from boredom, but sure I guess it would be great for the rest of you.
I know technical people who fix computers for free in their free time because they enjoy it. There are plenty of people who enjoy exercising their technical prowess just because it fulfills them and makes them happy. but i am glad you would prefer to dig ditches. It would be just as important and I surely would be close to the first camp and not yours.
We DO NOT need money to make it happen. That is a farce.
I do agree with one thing you say though 'BUT people are going to want to see that all their needs will be met first BEFORE agreeing to give up what they have.'
Very much agreed... I also think that this can happen. I know of atleast on plan to address this.
I know people who do a lot of things because they like it. I know way more people who do it because it puts food on the table. They like their jobs well enough, but if given the choice they would rather be out horse riding, wood working, or any number of hobbies that wouldn't even keep them in a cardboard box. But because their job pays well, they do it and they contribute to the advancement of our society. I would really hate to see what would happen if people only did what they wanted to do instead of what they had to do.
"I would really hate to see what would happen if people only did what they wanted to do instead of what they had to do."
I wouldn't. I think we have enough automation now that we dont really need too much labor to keep us fed, clothed, and housed. And we would have an abundance of people who would gladly do those things for free if it meant all of their needs were met. People would be chefs for the joy of it. People would design clothes for the joy of it, then feed the designs into machines to do the work. Architects would take great joy in supplying housing designs. Technical people would take joy in fixing anything thatis automated and then automating new things.
The problem is, the super rich own most of the large automation, and they own the designers, architects, and chefs as their slaves via the monetary system. Did you know that 3 midwestern states can supply the whole food supply for the US year round. The rest is surplus, and we still have 3rd world ciizens starving... it's because they have no value to the rich. Their value is based on their work and production only, not on the fact that they are human and alive. Life doesn't have value anymore except to the person trying to preserve their own life. Everyone else is just numbers to be manipulated for your own good. Such is the thinking of many at the top of the ladder.
As far as contributing to the advancement of society, the super rich get taxed less on their investments than workers get taxed on their labor. The rich save money by investing other money and not by investing in labor and real value. Such is the CDS and CDOs created by the financial industry. These people control our money supply and wealth and what advancement do they create for the progress of society. They trade money on money and move it around, playing the stock market like gambling in a casino. Watching numbers and taking advantage of dips and peaks. This contributes to society how? And these are the guys who at the lowest levels make $200,000 a year if they are smart and know what they are doing.
These people would be better off iff they had a real job contributing to society, like figuring out how to harnessfree energy from the earth, or at this point, even doing nothing but sitting at home and breathing would be beter than the destruction they are indirectly causing. There jobs are about creating more wealth and thats it. Wealth for the sake of wealth, and that has nothing to do with progress.
Watching numbers and taking advantage of dips and peaks. actually they engineer the dips and peaks with money policy, and they know what they are going to do before us so their trading is all insider trading, ALL
I like how all you weirdos think we have all these mystical machines that can do so much for us.
As an engineer I can assure you that the machination we have is nowhere even in the same universe as what you say we need to keep our way of life. People may enjoy saving lives and curing people, but they only do the TEN years of secondary education for the pay. So either we go back to medicine shamans, or we pay doctors way more than others.
And what's wrong with playing the stock market? I've paid for a few houses by playing it and playing it well. Nothing wrong with making money on statistical analysis.
Ever see "how it's made?" Our ipods were designed by humans. none of them are handmade, it's all automated. Same with cars largely. One thing they are struggling to automate is the processing of beef. Those damn cows some in too many sshapes and sizes, but they have figured out how to automate chickens and potato processing. Sure it takes a few people to maintain the automation, but where it used to take thousands of chicken processing people it takes a few few large expensive machines and maybe a dozen people to maintain them.
If you truly are an engineer then I suggest you do some research on how far along automation has come in the last few years. Sure it is not far enough along to do everything yet, but as technology expands exponentially and we approach the singularity, we automate more and more. Hell automation has a lot to do with our recent shortage of jobs (and why the stock market is still up even with high unemployement.) The US laborer makes no products because machines do where the big biz can afford it, or foreign cheap labor does where the big biz can't afford or figure out automation. Hell we even import mexicans to process our beef.
Let me give you another example. Proctor and Gamble makes, soap, shampoo, toothbrushes, mouthwash, razorblades. Everything is made by machine, even the trucks are loaded by unmanned forklifts. There is a human driver of the truck but up to that point there are a few dozen people who maintain the equipment that manufactures millions in profit a day.
watch this movie about the future of food to see how automated that industry has become. http://www.thefutureoffood.com/ Please watch it and then try to tell me that we can't automate most things. I definitely don't agree with exactly how they automate food prodcution but here is proof that they can. As an engineer you owe it to yourself to watch this. so please do.
Good for you, you have houses by playing the stock market! Someone lost money on the other end. Someone not as smart and lucky as you. probably the guys who invest your mother's pension fund.
So you got rewarded for manipulating numbers and basically gambling! And this contributes to society how?
My parents don't have a pension fund. Mom created their retirement fund using the stock market too. I come from a family of do it yourselfers, not rely on others to do it for us.
Your examples make up a total of a statistical anomaly in the manufacturing world. I work in heavy industry and we do have the machines you think we do. I still need plenty of welders and fabricators at my shop to make the machines you see in your little tv programs. Never guessed how the all those machines got made, did you?
welders will be out of a job soon. mark my words. You make some good arguments but you don't want to dig deeper to find the truth. Oh well, I tried... done replying.
No welders won't be out of a job soon. It will always be cheaper to employ one welder than to have to buy and maintain ten different machines, one for each job that needs doing. The articulation of the human body is something we can only being to fathom doing with robotics. So, if we ONLY use machines to do our work starting today, we are going to have a lot of missing pieces in our ability to produce.
Didn't you just say that you owned one other house two weeks ago? Then there was that whole shpiel on needing a higher education and attending college to become an engineer. You graduated in two weeks?
You might want to rethink that whole weirdo thing.
I'm 28. I've had plenty of time to do a lot with my life. Yes that sometimes means 60 hour weeks between classes, a full time job, and rehabbing.
I own a total of six. Three being completed. One I'm working on now.
Far be it from me to accuse a "capitalist" of lying.
Why because you did nothing with your 20's except sit on your ass and smoke pot all day? Because someone, God forbid, has actually achieved something through hard work and sweat equity? Because the idea that you CAN succeed in this country by working smart completely goes against your little coup that no one without money can get ahead?
Far be it from me to call a "communist" lazy though.
Do you always react like this after you have been caught in a lie?
What are you talking about? Look, everyone knows you're batshit crazy ok. Go away little useless communist. Let those of us with some worth run this world.
BTW: I never said I graduated. I'm still in school, working as an engineer, which has been far far more instructional than school ever was and I may never get the "formal" piece of paper. And that's fine by me too. Only a fool thinks a piece of paper says anything about your abilities other than one's ability to regurgitate.
But yes I do own rental properties. They are what ensures that my household will take no hit from a job loss or illness. Haven't you ever heard of multiple streams of income? Hopefully by the end of next year I will have quit my job in favor of starting a business. Then we will have my man's job, my business, and rental properties. Should any one of those take a hit, we will still be okay as we will have two other sources of income to live off of with only one being actually needed to sustain this lifestyle.
It's not a hard theory to understand, it just takes a helluva alot of work to pull off.
happy slaves produce more
I already did make my point. ;)
Which is what? You're incapable of being as successful? You're too lazy to put in the work? Too dumb to make the best decision? Too inept to compete in this world? Or maybe you're ok with never having any security in your life. What is your point? What world do you want to live in? Sunshine and rainbows or strife?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/retail-messaging-why-is-your-pocket-empty/ -] Daennera (Griffith, IN) 2 points 1 month ago 1) No student loan debt. One very modest and affordable mortage on the house I live in. One rental property I own outright (no mortgage) and is paying for my primary home. I have about 8K in credit card debt from fixing up the rental. I should be done with that by mid next year just in time to buy another house at the tax sale to fix up and rent out. Full time job paying 38K a year with just a high school diploma to my name. Going back to school this spring, paying cash for it. 2) Solving this problem is as simple as people not getting themselves in over their heads. The only reason any of this happened is because people are willing to get themselves into debts and investments they do not understand. Nor do they keep worst-case-scenario plans on hand to weather any storms. ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink
Ok, lying weirdo.
I don't have student loan debt. And yes I own six. We had this thing called a tax sale since then. When people don't pay their taxes their house gets put on the auction block and people like me buy them for very low prices relative to value. Yes I work a full time job in manufacturing as an engineer. Never said I had a degree. What's your point?
Ah, I guess you do react like this.
Of course I react when little foolish communists call me lazy. It means they either A) don't know me, or more likely B) wouldn't know hard work if it bit them in the ass.
So what do you do with your day anyway? How many houses have you rebuilt? How many diseases have you cured? How many businesses have you advanced?
This is what we strive for at http://www.facebook.com/TheHumanSocietyProject
Thanks for your post. I will add, we got world wide communication, plus like 7 billion people to talk to. Good mental health? Try avoiding military service, which seems to be about the worst thing a person can do today in terms of getting life long mental problems. Back in the day, everyone was part of the army in that tribe. Hmmm. How great was it, a life expectancy of 30 years, and no NBA basketball? lol Well, now for my idea I thought of that got me started writing this post. I can certainly see a movement toward a no money economy developing, and it could be encouraged - bring it up at your local GA. Don't have an Occupy movement in your city? Start one. Anyway, I see a lot of people cooperatively living together at my local encampment, (for which I mostly just supply wood for and spend time chatting politics with). Money is not a complete non-issue, but the community continually provides stuff for the camp, and peopel cooperatively share what they have. Also of note, the camp is going toward solar and wind power as much as they can, something that is earth friendly, and of course could be spread to all camps. New here, probably a thread on this already? But hey, I am all for using renewable energy. Wood, which I have a lot of in my 4 wooded acres, is a renewable energy source, and since our camp is using a modern, efficient wood burning stove, it does not even pollute much. I have discussed with some the idea of kind of morphing the ows movement into a off grid campaign. In other words, have everyone live at Occupy Camps, turning off the heat at their house, if they are so fortunate to have one.
Further, some want to go anti-consumerism. In other words, don't buy anything that you really don't need to buy, since when you buy something, somebody makes more of that thing, using up the precious natural resources of the Earth. Recycling, merchandise swapping, food swapping, services swapping - all can reduce the use of money, and help our planet.
So lets say we are in a culture where everyone lives in a tent, nobody uses electricity that is non-renewable, nobody buys a car since everyone is repairing ones already in existence and sharing them cooperatively, bicycles - walking - fully electric (ultra light) vehicles, and skate boarding are encouraged heavily, tunnels connect everything locally so these last can be used in the worst of winter weather, and a bunch of other earth friendly things. Do we ever go back to houses? Start burning fossil fuels again. Start using electricity for coal plants? Nope. We take what we learned in the tents and take it back to our homes. And hopefully, many friends we have met along the way. (If you still have any friends after going stir crazy living aside them in that tent for so long. lol.)
I like this idea... a re-education camp
"The only advantages to our modern way of living that have come about is that our physical health is better"
Actually, if you look at people with addictions (alcohol, smoking, drugs, gambling, eating, hoarding, procreating, etc) and all the cancer, diseases, stress, homicides, etc. our societies overall physical health is in fact much worse than many native cultures.
The only thing keeping members of our society alive so long is as you said, technology. Unfortunately, most of our technology is geared towards shoveling greater amounts of toxins into our bodies for profit, and then spending just as much money to temporarily relieve chronic toxic symptoms.
AMEN this is becoming a new post
"Unfortunately, most of our technology is geared towards shoveling greater amounts of toxins into our bodies for profit, and then spending just as much money to temporarily relieve chronic toxic symptoms."
There is a very common theme here that can be applied to many areas other than health. It used to be: solve a real problem and make money doing it. Now it's: Figure out a problem that people will pay money to fix, create that problem or the impression that it is a problem on a large scale (excess body hair for instance,) create a whole new industry to fix this created problem (razors for every imaginable use,) optimize the profits of that industry (intentionally make the life of the razors shorter and shorter so as to create huge residual income,) cha-ching! Use the money to repeat!
Residual income based on waste (not to mention fraud and abuse) is the addiction of the filthy rich.
exactly.
problem, reaction, solution applied to business
http://ethics.wikia.com/wiki/Problem_Reaction_Solution
cancer has been around forever. so have other diseases and stress and homicide.
Look at the overall rates and trends.
Look at areas that have preventative healthcare built into their lifestyles vs our own which promote all sorts of pills, shots, surgeries, psychotherapies, etc to address many symptoms.
Look at the overall eustress vs distress in populations that stress affluence vs those that stress family values and community.
Finally look at the profitability of maintaining cancers, diseases, stress, and war. How profitable are nutritional remedies vs synthetic drugs? Why are scientific journals largely ignored when they provide evidence that certain natural remedies work as well or better than synthetic drugs? Why have mainstream (western) medicine only begun to look at alternative therapies seriously AFTER they discovered billions of dollars were invested in alternative medical practices?
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/
penicillin and the whole anti-biotic family. Cipro. lipitor and the statin family, Athritis drugs, aspirin, blood presure drugs, blood thinners. Israel is close to a cancer vaccine, and are in phase 3 trials on pancreatic cancer drugs.
flavenoids from purple grapes and red wine improve heart health.
Tumeric, Ginger, fish(w omega 3), and olive oil help reduce arthritis pain. Also an alkaline diet helps reduce further bone loss which is commonly caused by acidosis. (ironically milk is highly acidic when broken in the body and decreases overall bone density)
Ginger, gingko, plants w Omega 3, dried fruits/berries can act as blood thinners.
Oatmeal (high fiber foods), Fish, nuts, and other plant foods that help lower LDL works just as well as statin drugs
Aspirin = tree bark... Also these drugs aren't exactly safe. Hundreds of deaths occur because of this over the counter drug. Combined with painkillers the death rate is well over 40,000 people a year.
Vaccines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8nrdybZZzA
As for cancer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvzDHGLEUyw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0psJhQHk_GI
Even aids can be called into question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p-ttLfkZHQ
Mainstream Medical establishments exist to make a profit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg-52mHIjhs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TofWiovftMY&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLB20BA834CDD579D3
Also medicine has barely touched the ability to cure through EMF and practically ignores all the environmental toxins pumped into our environment through corporate activities.
Traditional Medicine is great overall for acute problems but is a very poor solution for long-term health. As Hippocrates, the father of medicine said "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food."
Sorry, drugs do more than so called "natural " remedies.
Of course. They do more damage because they only address acute symptoms.
They used a different form of money. Beads, pelts, hides, wampum, all "money"
maybe in the most technical sense but somehow the natives managed to not become greedy. they did not keep warehouses of pelts, hides, and wampum and deprive others of it so they could systematically control and enslave others. They also cared about the earth.
indian tribes kept slaves which they got from raiding other tribes.
and who is not a slave today? everyone must pay to the IRS and to the fed reserve which moneys leave the US and go to the red shield banks in Europe for interest on our debt, that control the world thru loans.
and you think you're a slave? you have no inderstanding of the word.
a economic slave by national debt, a slave with a little more freedom produces more than one in shackles. And most of us are slaves to the dollar. very few are not and those are the masters, or so they think
use a dictionary, look up "slave". first definition.
ignore the debt enslaving it does not matter to you, you do not understand. But open your mind and think and you might. Just don't open your mind so much your brains fall out. My definitional might not fit exactly the dictionary definition you like to use but I am asking you to stretch your mind around it anyway, and look for parallels to slavery.
debt enslalvement? do you spend more money than you take in?. Not everyone pay into the IRS. Lower income people must file but do no pay.
I have forsaken debt as being morally wrong. But yet my gov forces me to be enslaved by their debts, against my will. That seems wrong to me. Very wrong. Do you understand money? where does it come from? how is inflation created?
my government, against my will, borrowed money, and made ME a SLAVE to that debt. Now I am responsible to pay that money back to the bank or the foreign bank that ownes the debt. They will TAKE some of our natural resources to pay for the interest on our debt, Rather than forgiving the debt like we did for Europe after WW2....... Answer to me WHO THE IRS IS?. Are they part of the US GOVERNMENT? OR A BRANCH OF THE RED SHIELD BANK THAT OWNS THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK, and controls our money system, the company store also owns the company bank that issues company money.
were there billionaires? the money system would not allow it. There was some advantages to their systems
billionaires? their system didn't go that high.
they did have some good points to how their society was structured although some things also seem worse than ours. Can we cherry pick the best points of both systems and combine them? This is a discussion board, is it not?
here is how it will happen, economic collapse, food riots, gov collapse, riots and infighting until 10% of the current population remains alive and they form into tribal groups for survival. With only a few people peace returns as people are trying to survive and don't have much time to fight, and they all have lots of room to roam. The Indian nation re-emerges.
Wonderful story...So what now?
Sigh....some of you people just astound me with your ignorance. Indians had small, closed societies. There are now 7 billion people on this planet. I suggest you start reading some history.
[Removed]
[Removed]
Why does every hippie idiot in this country beleive indians lived in some utopian 500 years ago. Yeah in between smashing weak babies heads into trees and starving half the time it was a perfect world.
no one said it was easy or just or utopia. But there were good points to how it worked, and bad points. What they had however was what it took for them to survive with the "hand" they were dealt in the land they lived in. When the society crashes see if you can do better.
How do you know how it worked? You just make this assumption that everything was perfect because you watched Dances with Wolves. Society comes crashing down, well hasn't happened yet, doubt it will anytime soon.
Beleive what you want, but the winners usually write the populist history...
Man I bet those Indians were just savages! (sarcasm)
So your admitting you never studied any indian history because you beleive it is maniacally biased. So ok then where did you get your pre columbian indian history (Dances with Wolves and new age hippie stereotypes)
i dont know any pre-columbian history of the indians but there is plenty of history between columbus and the establishmen tof our nation... pre-columbian history for white europeans is manically based. ever here of the crusades or the dark ages?
I am sorry you make no sense. Like I said all your knowledge of any Indian history is based on TV, movies, or the common general new age hippie stereotypes. Granted the hippie stereotype is very positive and not negative, but it is still a bullshit stereotype, It's no different than someone saying hundreds of years ago indians were a bunch of bloodthirsty savages. Ultimately you have no clue what your talking about.
bullshit, you don't know what I kno and don't know... you fucking troll... bye!
I know your an idiot and I pretty much proved that
[Removed]
[Removed]