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Forum Post: Ideas Are More Powerful Than Leaders

Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 11, 2011, 12:01 a.m. EST by GypsyKing (8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

There has been a lot said lately about how this movement is leaderless, aimless, ineffective etc., none of which stands up to the rapid and real achievments of this movement in a few short months. The leaders who have made lasting contributions to the betterment of mankind, have always had at their back an idea whose time has come. I submit that the OWS movement is such a movement, and idea whose time has come, internationally, and the question of leadership is to some degree beside that point.

I have heard two very sound suggestions here for a leader of this movement. Russ Feingold, and Elizabeth Warren. I think they would both make great leaders. The only problem is, that in chosing either of them we would encapsulate this movent within the existing political spectrum; defining us as a clearly "left" leaning movement; while I think that in order to succeed we must transcend the labels of the existing political order.

I think we must succeed in two ways; establishing rules of conduct, that if violated can expell those bent on subverting the movements goals, and then actively persue those goals by ranging out into our communities to actually redress the wrongs created by the global financial elite.

Wherever people are suffering is where we should be, and in helping them, whether we ultimately succeed or fail, at least we will know what we are doing is right, and that it is of active good to our people.

If we act, and those around the world act in this way, we will attack the core evil of the system while at the same time living out our commitment. It is to truth, justice, honor, and action that we must commit ourselves: not I feel, at least at this early juncture, or if ever, to a single leader. Leaders limit movements as much as focus or define them. Above all we must remain inclusive to anyone who agrees with the essential idea that money has corrupted our democracy and our world. Together we will make that change through the sheer pressure of our resolve.

121 Comments

121 Comments


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[-] 4 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

The National General Assembly is the most powerful idea on the table. 876 leaders. RepubliCrats worst nightmare.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

@AFarewellToKings...Hey Idiot, drop the false flag bullshit. That website is NOT a part of the OWS, NOT endorsed by the NYCGA. It is a right-wing Pawlite attempt to hijack the movement. And we are sick of seeing the damn link repeated on every post. GO AWAY TROLL!

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

restraint on/ read 'em and weep

http://www.nycga.net/groups/the-99-declaration-working-group/

/restraint off

see it pays to be persistent. Congrats, you're the first one to call me a troll. I promise you'll be seeing more between now and July 4th.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

hey, i understand you don't like it. but you accuse them i trying to hijack while telling them what they have no right. isn't that you hijacking as well? respect freedom of speech homie.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

No it isn't. Pointing out their obvious Tea Party/False Flag plot is simply a public service, since the site they link to is designed to look like an official OWS website. They need to be shamed, exposed, and ignored.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

repression of speech is not a public service. it's the tactic of cowards. declaring division among party lines is counter to OWS policy, you are the one here to tear thing apart.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 12 years ago

Not like I deleted their post. It's repression of free speech for you to tell me I shouldn't repress their free speech (which I am not). Lol.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

not like you have the power to delete their post either. and yes, trying to discredit someone by declaring a party line division and assumption of ill intent without proof and when party lines are not an accepted part of this movement, you are trying to repress. new name tag, same bullshit.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

One interseting thing about a leaderless movement, is that it has never before been tried, and as of yet every genuinely populist movement, every movement based primarily upon the goal of human moral and spiritual progression, in the politcal sphere, has ultimately failed. So why must we adopt a method that is, in some sense, a proven failure.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Leaderless was tried just last (arab) spring. A NGA would have served them well.

I don't think OWS99% is about morals and spirituality. It's about the law, conflict of interest, corruption and fraud.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

You are right about the Arab Spring. That was so recent that I had not yet put it into historical context. As far as morals and spirituality, I think when we set out to reform such basic aspects of society as law, conflict of interest, corruption and fraud, we are inevitably embarking into the territory of morality and spirituality - of the necessity to find foundations for our own refformation, because the corruptability of society is merely a reflection of the corruptability of the individual.

I think that was one of the realizations that made Ghandi's improbable defeat of The British Empire with nothing but a loin cloth and a pair of sandals possible. His inclusion of all religious and philosophical belief systems, while at the same time recognising the necessity of their power as the underpining of a human transformation. The simple truth is that we can only save ourselves by changing ourselves. It might be worthwhile to read my post "We Have Seen The Enemy And He is Us."

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

it seems it's all woven togther

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

It does but it's out of context, not unimportant. Here's an anology: people in family court will get into a he said / she said squabble fest while the judge will sit there rolling eyes til it's blown over and then get back to business. This is not the time or place for morals and spirituality. It's about being divided and fighting with each other over non-issues or uniting in declaring "this shit's gotta go" I'm pretty sure that's what OWS99% did all this for, yes? We owe it to the next generations to not fuck this up. Time is short.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/876-leaders-republicrats-worst-nightmare-im-good-w/

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It is all woven together - and you can put the pieces together!

A certain number of ideas have finally come together that can give humans their freedom, through synthesis.

Another thing about a leaderless movement is, because it's is an innovation, its going to be a lot harder for our opponents to deal with. They can't simply use tried and true formulas.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 12 years ago

Rocky has a point. We're in a New Age. It's a new way of thinking. However, the philosophy of the moment is to be expressed in art and literature. The reform side of the movement is very much in the political realm, and will reflect these new values. They are interwoven, but the practical concerns of reforming the system are more easily quantified in the declaration, which is/should be an expression of our new philosophy.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

yes, agree movement of the masses must stay focused on the 99% Declaration

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 12 years ago

The Arab Spring is very inspirational. Those are the tactics we need to adopt. I still say if we march, we have to have an agenda. If we do? The people will rally behind it, and they'll run wild in the streets. Not sure how it'll all turn out for the arabs, but if we have a solid agenda, we're probably gonna do ok.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

Yes, absolutely agree, we need agenda! Dose anyone know what are next steps for NGA or delegates meetings? I heard about a Philly meeting... Today is west coast port blockade/alliance with port workers to gain back their rights.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

There were plenty of leaders in the arab springs. I cant name you them, who do you think are going to be running in their elections?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

What is your point here, you are driving at something, perhaps important, but you need to elaborate.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Im saying that you can have leaderless protests, but when the chance to take the role of leading communities, leaders emerge whether you like it or not.

Im seeing it in Tampa. most are not happy about it, but I understand its just how humans function.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

We must simply resist the way that humans have previously functioned. That's the key to the whole thing.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Resisting how humans function? Really? Did you just hear yourself?

Im not trying to be rude, but people are pack animals. Always have been. And packs always develope leaders. Like dogs.

Im more a cat, but Im a rarity :)

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I know that perhaps sounds unrealistic, but Einstein said it when he said, "Nuclear weapons have changed everything but the way people think." Our technology has advanced beyond our level of spiritual growth - if we intend to survive we must change. It's that simple - and that difficult.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Then I guess we dont have a chance. People, in their core behaviors, have never changed.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 12 years ago

You should see my cats when they hunt. I sometimes like to spy on them and study their behaviors. They work together very well as a team to ambush their prey and control the pest population.

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 12 years ago

Cats are pets, not exterminators. They will hunt, sure. But domesticated cats never really lived in the wild.

[-] 1 points by jimmycrackerson (940) from Blackfoot, ID 12 years ago

good point, thank you.

[-] 3 points by blazefire (947) 12 years ago

YES!! You have stirred my blood! Thanks for such a marvelous thread!

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thank you so much. I have read some of your posts and feel that you understand exactly what I am driving at here:)

[-] 2 points by blazefire (947) 12 years ago

Most certainly. We must understand that this is an issue for humanity. We have to step past what we thought we knew, and look for something new. We must unite. This is the only key. The lock is world peace. Occupy will come to see this I'm certain as an acheivable goal, once they realise they are ALREADY global. I'm hoping a global GA can be organised.

AND, as there is no way, that anyone would accept the idea of a world leader, we need system that unites the world without one.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

This is, and needs to be, a world movement because the issues we face are global, and systemic. The world needs to transcend old ways of thinking, and I think this movement is a catalist to do just that.

[-] 1 points by blazefire (947) 12 years ago

I agree. I cannot honestly express the strength of my conviction to that also.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

i would say the internet was the catalyst.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

The protests, kinda like a bill board, were the catalyst. Those who felt their pain went to the occupations and then decided to go to the internet. but the internet is a most valued tool.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

yeah but occupy didn't spring up first and i doubt i would have had the momentum and participation it started with if not for the inspiration of the arab spring.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

The protests were my call to action. After the tea party put all those radicals in charge, I said, "fuck it, if that is the direction my nation wants to go, let them drown in their own stupidness." I guess that makes you a greater solder than I. Also, I have no kids so my future ends with me. I did shed a tear for my nieces and nephews. although, I did warn my brother and sisters. they were too blind by public relations to take me seriously.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) 12 years ago

yeah, i have some family that operates a branch of the tea party. it's a hard sell when you're talking to people that choose to live by the zero sum ideology. i have to admit, i was more moved by the middle east protests than anything else thus far. then to see people here finally step up to the plate and protest, i got a little emotional.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

it's not zero sum. that ideology has more to do with Realists' views of international politics. For that to even be used in domestic discourse shows depravity. unless you live in a mote surrounded castle, you are an idiot to think in those terms. I believe it is supply side, trickle down economics that has us by the short and curries, which I guess is zero sum in a sense.

[-] 2 points by WorkerAntLyn (254) 12 years ago

I think you make some very good points. Thank-you for the well thought out post.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thank you.

[-] 1 points by Infowar (295) 12 years ago

So how about the idea of freedom, it is called the Philosophy of Liberty? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z1buym2xUM

[-] 1 points by FriendIyobserver (-28) 12 years ago

I am the leader of OWS. I was elected

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 12 years ago

I think this movement is a bit like a Djinni we've uncorked, and who has escaped the bottle... Right now, he's probably as much use to the movement running wild in the streets. Eventually, we have to admit, he's just a bit too wild and crazy, he becomes a danger, and thus, we have grab a cork, and do for ourselves, play within the system, in order to reform it. The trick is to find a way to bottle that magic and use it at the right time, to get our wishes-- without endangering ourselves, or compromising the soul of the movement...

I like Elizabeth Warren very much, she has a lot of personal integrity, she has a brain, experience, and her heart is in the right place. I think the declaration is a pretty solid agenda, and it uses the tools we've got. If we had a person Elizabeth Warren, who has earned a lot of clout with the silent majority, then we would be doing ourselves a good service. Of course, it's part of the compromise thing... We're all going to have to give a little, here and there, to reform the system. She's the type of person who I could trust to keep the djinni's bottle safe...

The fascists that have taken over this country are afraid of us educating ourselves. They don't want the truth getting out. They are afraid the system will be reformed, and the revolution begins in the library. They are afraid we're going to get the silent majority really inspired to get off their butts and demand change. Leaders are usually polarizing, and this movement is gloriously diffuse, it's our strength. We just don't want to be too scattered... It's a fine balancing act, but, I think I am sensing a consensus of opinion forming. It's only my personal opinion, but I think it's time to focus all the different occupations behind a common agenda... Thus, I gotta push the 99percent declaration, and I hope a lot of other occupations will decide to rally behind it, too. Just my two cents, though.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

And two very valuable cents, at that. I agree that if the CONSENSUS becomes that we are growing too diffuse and unfocused, we will need a leader. My problem is that in chosing one it becomes possible for the movement to be catagorized, and if it is catagorized as "left leaning," then they can really bring to bare their anti left-wing propoganda machine, which they have refined into a powerful mind control force over the years. These are very difficult waters to navigate, and that's why I've advocated the "wait and see" approach. If the general assembly can function to put forth a platform and means to achieve it, than we may not need a leader to build this movement into a power that can force change. I guess that's how I feel at the moment, although your argument is the most persuasive I have seen so far that we need a leader.

[-] 1 points by NLake72 (510) 12 years ago

Your argument holds a lot of water, too. Timing is everything, I suppose. My worry is that the occupation, at the moment, is only getting anti-coverage... "it's all about anarchy... Now for the sports..." The thing with the declaration is, I don't agree with all the solutions, but it identifies the problems, and that is a darn good place to start bringing people together. Getting them to abandon partisanship, debate, and compromise? Man... I think that's the true challenge the movement faces right now... And, it's like getting people to change churches... It's not a matter of giving up your loyalty, or religious perspective, but it's a HUGE step for most people to just uproot their... self-identity with one political party, or another. We gotta do it with love, and fight this war with words, that's all I know for sure.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by fansmiles (24) from New York, NY 12 years ago

People are more powerful than ideas. Ideas are projections on the back of a cave for those who cannot see of light of reality because it is too bright for there scared eyes. To see reality clearly you must overcome fear, greed and hubris. That is the eye opening. Then ideas look like the menu and reality is the feast.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

That is the process that we must all make together, to form ideas in the light of REALITY, rather than the "light" of established "wisdom." I think the ideas behind OWS would be heartily approved by Plato, while he would have dismissed our current sytem as that which he was most disgusted with, Plutocracy.

[-] 1 points by fansmiles (24) from New York, NY 12 years ago

mmm I think Plato brought the system of Ideas that we are suffering from. I prefer the sophists

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thanks for saying that. Now I can discount any future input on your part. The 1% prefer the sohpists as well, as their whole art was in using public speaking to sway the masses with empty retoric, while Plato was persuing universal truths for the betterment of mankind as a whole.

[-] 1 points by fansmiles (24) from New York, NY 12 years ago

You have been tought about sophists by the "reason" propagandists. Plato is a great problem. He created Ideas which are abstract fictions which masquerade as reality. Your statement: "Now I can discount any future input on your part" is very much in that vein. The notion that reality is understood only as input-output and that it is either right-wrong or true-false is the dualistic bias of the platonic legacy of rationalism. Rationalism is a curse. I understand your avid attachment to it since you live in this locked rationalist mind set. If I knew you'd care to open your mind, I would suggest "Yurugu" by Marimba Ani (available at half.com for $24). Enlightenment is also a myth. There is no reason to see light as any better than dark. There is no light without dark. The notion that we have to establish classifications of high and low or hierarchies is implicit in the language you use. My view is that the Greeks were educated in Africa and then appropriated what they learned, in fact, they plagiarized but missed 50% of the lessons. We now live with this half-humanity nightmare called rationalism or Yurugu.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Ideas are what leaders sue to drive the people they lead. The ideas may be all that holds ab organization together but it is the leader the funnels the people into being constructive and cohesive.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

That has been true in the past, but I believe modern technology can greately alter that picture. People already are acting in a way that's constructive and cohesive. Secondly, if this movement ever is to have leader/s, those leaders should emerge from the movement itself, rather than be taken from the existing political spectrum, from which they can be classified, derided and dismissed by the concerted power of the media.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Modern technology would allow everyone to have a say thus limiting the amount that can be achieved in the process

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

A platform must be established - which is, I think, understood by the general assembly and by the majority in this movement. Please don't forget that in August there was no OWS movement in America at all.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

What kind of platform?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Why ask me - look to the GA.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 12 years ago

Because I'm talking to you.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Well, I'm not a leader - I am just advocating that very position. People need to work these things out among themselves. That is the purpose of the GA - to function as collective leadership. It has been done before - Congress is a good example. It functioned well for about two humdred years before becoming corrupt. Now we need to reform it and set it upon a footing where it cannot once again be corrupted. But I think the idea that such a gathering of collective decision maker's can't function is disingenuous.

[-] 1 points by simplesimon (121) 12 years ago

If ideas are more powerful than leaders the population of North Korea would be able to travel to South Korea to find work. and the population of North Korea would not be starving.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It is not so long ago that Asia, almost in it's totality, was gripped in in a mideval system. All of the modern Asian systems, for better or worse, are the creation of not a hundred years duration. We have a longer tradition of individual liberty in The West to draw from.

[-] 1 points by thepistolet (28) 12 years ago

Thank you for this thoughtful explanation. I read an article today in which Elizabeth Warren was called "Voice of the 99 Percent."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-burnett/elizabeth-warren_b_1138720.html?ref=politics&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

I have been thinking about the resistance (especially in the media) to the movement remaining leaderless, inclusive, and generally difficult to summarize. The discomfort with that is very interesting.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Yes, I think there is real resistance on the part of the (corporate controled) media to the idea of this movement remaining leaderless. I think it perplexes them in their inability to attack this movement in the tried and true methods they have used to destroy other such movements in the past.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

Yes, and there is a natural way about it that seems to resonate with us all at an innate level, i think this is indicative in the extremely rapid growth of the movement. At some deep level it seems we all wish and need to belong, and feel and know we are a part. and in the current environment, that feeling or knowing is less and less.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Sorry, I didn't quite understand your last sentence.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

Sorry for not being more clear. I was just trying to say in our current corrupt system, there is no real representation of the will of the people, of the masses. This is obvious. This is why we're all at this juncture. And, that by and large people don't feel like they belong or have any say in what America is doing. Mostly they are frustrated, and resolve since too much stress just for work and provide for their family.

A leaderless movement can bring back feeling of belonging again

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Good point.

[-] 2 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

The National General Assembly is the most powerful idea on the table. 876 leaders? RepubliCrats worst nightmare? I'm good with that.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

yep, these are ideas of MS Peck about community and specifically about leadership A group of all leaders: Members harness the “flow of leadership” to make decisions and set a course of action. It is the spirit of community itself that leads and not any single individual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I find this kind of thinking to be new and empowering, and moreover, possible now in ways that it wasn't possible in the past. Very exciting!

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

i think he was brilliant man, he was heavily involved with forming communities, not as leader, but as enabler so to speak, i forget the words they used in the book, however, these communities would go through these phases, seems same like us all

even as enabler or whatever it was, he wouldn't take decisions for the group, he would let them suffer through things, getting everyone to breaking point, and then it would go into empty phase. But the group did this together as a cohesive unit. somethnig like this.. i need to refresh on it

Many complain or are concerned there's no unified message and no organization and this and that, but this is healthy sign, or if not put another way, its natural phase, he called it chaos.

my Mom had his book a different drum, i loved it, and in some sense reminds me of how Asian society operates. probably there are parallels with Aboriginal and other indigenous groups.

hope we all can study these ideas more closely...

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Absolutely! There is not one single approach that we need to follow blindly simply because that is how things have gone in the past. We are capable of following new ways of thinking. Much has been done to pave the way for these new ways of thinking. Thanks for the comment! It's really exciting to see this rennaisance ocurring right now!

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

Ideas are just words if not focused and organized to produce action.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Yes, but the founders of our constitution were very suspicious of leaders. That's why they did everything in their power to draft the constitution to limit the power of leaders. They were right in thinking thus, because concentrated power rapids evolves into tryanny. A lot of what needs to be accomplished here is the redistribution of power, along with wealth. A re-enlightenment of the idea that our pilitical systems serve us - we do not serve them. That is the founding idea of a republic.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

However, they were organized and focused. As well, they were the leaders of the day to ensure that the ideals that they put forth remained the focus and actionable.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Who is to say that we don't have some of the leaders of the day among us, or that we are all just chidren that can't cooperate? If that were true than the very conception of democracy would be invalid. Democracy is messy, but it's also powerful. You may be underestimating the power of the human spirit when it at last it's stirred.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

You will never know that because as stated on this very site hundreds of times, you have no leaders resulting in the hundreds of different factions and ideologies that most of the country would never get behind. You will never know if the future leaders are here because the basic premis of the organization is that there are no leaders.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

There is a general assembly, and that is a form of leadership. To say otherwise is, as I have said, to discount the viability of democracy itself. I would assert that this movement has already accomplished much, and that those who discount it are simply either against it's principles, or are too impatient to understand political process.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

I wouldn't disagree that the movement has accomplished some standard of success (although I would also say that it has been minimal), that being said, it can never be a collective because of the massively diverse ideologies at the core arguments making it impossible to ever be a true force of change. Certain sects could have better success than others but that is going to disenfrachise the rest who do not believe in the same course.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Well, we are in a debate regarding ideas, and whether our ideas will prevail is the question? A leader may, or may not help our ideas to prevail - I think that's an open question. Furthermore, leaders of true populist movements have always been targets, and if assassinated tend to bring down the whole movement with the inevitable outporing of rage that follows. That gives our opponents a clear plan of action.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

So it's a double edged sword but which is the duller side? The side that stagnates and accomplishes little or the risk side that may fail but if successful, could further the change that is being sought? A leader doesn't fear being targeted and can usually stand up to it based on the backing of the others in that organization if the fight is legit and justified.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I simply think it is to early along to say that the movement is stagnating and doing little. If that proves to be the case than the movement may have to chose a leader at some point. But I'll tell you this: a movement based on collective consciouness can prove very powerful on it's own. And ultimately, our hopes must rest with the simple justice of our cause anyway. As one class of worker after another is bled to death by the corporate, and banking elite, I think people will see the truth of our message

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

But that is the problem, you don't have collective anything. There are to many sects to the organization.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Yes, but I think that there essentially two unifying principles here.

  1. Get money out of government.

  2. Erradicate, or reform the corporate charter.

I think a broad and sweeping coalition can be formed aroung these goals.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

No doubt it could be but those two very important core issues are being over shadowed with the continual high jacking of the OWS name by many different groups who have way to far out there ideologies.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Ok, and you think that having a leader would solve that? All Right, now that's one of several very good arguments in favor of having a leader. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I am replying to Tinhorn's comment, "A leader at this point would not work..." because there is no reply link below his comment:

I don't agree with the assessment that this movement can't deal with this situation with or without a leader. Much of the "fragmentation" we are seening is actual infiltration by groups that would not support these central ideas anyway - while the majority of Americans do support them. So it would not divide, but stregnthen OWS to rally aroung these central, formative ideas. That would not divide the movement but define it, and I think this has to be done.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 12 years ago

A leader at this point would not work. There are to many different ideologies in here now. If you create a leader, it will disenfranchise most of the others and the orgainzation will fall apart. OWS should have created a leader/council from the get go to prevent this from happening.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Leaderless movements are ripe for a co-opting by those with better leadership and organizational skills.

Obama, the community organizer, is drooling at this. Having massive amounts of young people, real troopers, in the streets, during an election year? He is going to play this like a fiddle...

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Leaderless movements are ripe for co-opting only if those involved are uncertain about their goals, and willing to be swayed by demogogues. I think there is a consesus building here that will not be swayed. I do agree with you though on the underlying frustration that I think your statement implies. We must put forth a concerted plan of action or simply fade away through lack of effectiveness. Fortunately, I think many in this movement are aware of this problem, and are working to solve it.

As to the Obama question, as things stand, it is either him or the Republicans. Any one of that field of clowns would destroy us utterly.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Monster a vs monster b. Just that one is more well spoken than the rest. Thats the only difference.

You will see when summer comes, it will still be just as unorganized-anything towards action is deemed "politcal", and Obama will create something in the envoronoment that will spur 99% of them to go to work for him, probably for free.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

You seem to have missed th whole point of my post, which was to say that if we, collectively, come to an understanding of the problem, and will not be swayed, we can transform this situation, regardless of who is in power. Having said this, I have to add that a Republican administration is far more likely to adopt active supression than the administration we have now. Just an opinion, but one that I think is realistic.

[-] 1 points by OccupyCentre (263) 12 years ago

@GypsyKing. Thank you for this thread. The more that it can be reinforced that we don't need leaders, and don't want them anyway, the better. hchc of course is correct also. Leaders can force their way into leaderless movements and take over. We are mindful of this, and it won't happen this time. People nowadays are much more aware. There is a general revulsion throughout the Movement of people who call themselves leaders. We help each other. Leaders are people like Captain Bligh, cruel and repressive types who kill when they don't get their own way. The modern day Captain Blighs work in the banks, and they are our foe.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

When its time to vote, if you havent created another option, than you are still stuck with the same two- the Fascists two parties, or boycott.

Unless you are going to go with an established 3rd party (reformist?).

I think the majority want a thrid party out of this, but cant seem to get it going.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Not enough time between now and the next election to make a third party a viable alternative. A third party now would, of course, all but guarentee a Republican landslide. And why do we keep coming back to this, when it is completely counter to the meaning of my post?

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Please read the Declaration (the mechanics aspects) again. The NGA, by its very existence, will begin to have serious repercussions to the RepubliCrat that will be the next President. 2016, different story. the message is clear: tow our line or it's bye bye. We are patient and determined to fix this mess, yes? The NGA could exist in perpetuity to keep the government of the day in line. I'm good with that too.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Patience, coalition building, helping the injured, stamina - and we will prevail.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Time is short. The elections are to take place in March and the NGA is of course July 4th, only 206 days to go...

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I tend to believe that we will be unable to effect the next presidential election in anything other than a potentially negative way, and that the best we can do in that limited time is put up our own people for Congress and support those already in Congress with a proven anti-corporate voting record. This movement must mature for some time to be in the position of determing that outcome. Changing the face of Congress however, is I think possible, and would be a huge step in the right direction.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Sorry, I was referring to the election of delegates for the NGA, not primaries stuff. The mere presence of the NGA will have the corrupt members of congress breaking out in a sweat next summer. Are you saying you think this is a negative influence?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I'm sorry, we had a miscommunication. I was trying to say that establishing a third party challenge would probably result in a Republican victory, given the short period of time we have until the election. I'm with you about the NGA. I think it's very existance creates a lot of heat, and is very positive. If it can become a body that functions to produce a platform and push the movement effectively towards thos goals, then I think a leader would be unneccessary. I think we must just wait a little longer and see how this all develops.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Time is short friend, and thanks for clarifying. For those unfamiliar with the Resolve in the 99% Declaration:

" V. BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that IF the PETITION FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES approved by the 876 Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY in consultation with the NINETY-NINE PERCENT OF THE PEOPLE, is not acted upon within a reasonable time and to the satisfaction of the Delegates of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY, said Delegates shall reconvene to utilize the grassroots network established in the election of the NATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY to organize a new INDEPENDENT POLITICAL PARTY to run candidates for every available Congressional seat in the mid-term election of 2014 and again in 2016 until all vestiges of the existing corrupt corporatocracy have been eradicated through the power of the ballot box."

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

people trying to derail, since there maybe is underlying agenda to ultimately try to co-opt this leaderless movement of the masses.

Thank you for your efforts to keep things on track

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

If we stand firm in our convictions and are not swayed, eventually the rest will take care of itself. There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. Look back at history to see if this is not true. What we have here is a new vision that can draw support from all demographics, worldwide. Srtategies will emerge and are emerging.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

How much time do you need to say "We are for Glass Steagal, campaign refinance, and accountability".....

2 years? 4 years?

Im not sure how I got on this either :)

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Just enough time that our voice will not be a minority voice crying in the wilderness, but a storm that cannot be resisted. Time will tell :)

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

If the message is good enough it doesnt need a leader, than the people would flock to you. And this proves my point. There isnt anyone getting up and talking to the people. Its just a protest.

[-] 1 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 12 years ago

absolutely, all are leaders, action formed through consensus of the masses. People can collectively create list of Grievances, interacting via local delegates, who can communicate with the NGA, evolving the 99% Declaration. Is this the idea or?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I think this is true, but I also think the movement is evolving in the dirrection you advocate. The conversation you and I are having now is an example of how this is begining to happen.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

It will most likely be said in the List Of Grievances at the NGA. So by early July the government of the day and the one about to be elected will be 1) unable to say they didn't know and 2) unable to say it doesn't represent the will of the people. They shall govern themselves accordingly, the NGA gives them (probably) about a year. So by July 2013, the NGA reconvenes to examine it's options. This is the RepubliCrats worst nightmare.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/876-leaders-republicrats-worst-nightmare-im-good-w/

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 12 years ago

Should be happening now. No need for a reassesment either. They know what needs to be done. The time is now.

[-] 1 points by AFarewellToKings (1486) 12 years ago

Should be happening now but what's happening right now is that OWS is in the process of becoming a footnote in history. Remember the photo of the folks standing on the balcony in Wall St sipping champagne and laughing?

Patience friend, The Suffolk Resolves were passed by the First Continental Congress on September 17th 1774:

"In one of his less famous rides, Paul Revere delivered a copy of the Resolves to the First Continental Congress in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where it was endorsed on September 17 as a show of colonial solidarity."

The mere existence of the NGA AKA Third Continental Congress is all that we can do or need to do. That in itself will be a huge accomplishment, made possible by they accomplishments of OWS. The election of delegates is only about 100 days away...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffolk_Resolves

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Agreed, absolutely.

[-] -1 points by fandango (241) 12 years ago

elizabethwarren = communist, statist.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."~Hélder Câmara