Forum Post: I want to Occupy the Military
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 10, 2012, 10:58 a.m. EST by 4TheHumanSocietyProject
(504)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I was thinking about joining the military to educate the men and women of what is occurring in the world and try to enlighten them. I believe when shit hits the fan we will need the military to come to our side of the fence. Please do not rant or say something with out thinking about this very deeply.
You assume incorrectly that the rank and file in the military require your education and enlightenment and its a breathtakingly arrogant statement. It reveals your naïveté and classism and unfortunately, there are many people just like you in the OWS movement.
The US military is composed of people that are representative of the US population at large. There are conservatives, liberals, idiots, geniuses; the law-abiding and criminals. It may surprise you that there are poor and wealthy people serving.
It is obvious you don't know anyone in our military so perhaps you should take the time to get to know your fellow citizens before making statements like this-or identifying with a movement like OWS.
Well stated (Iraq vet--2004-05, 9 years of service, and I'm not a dumbass, I'm a lawyer who loves OWS). For the record, I served as an enlisted guy (not an officer).
Awesome! Please review and comment upon this.
http://algoxy.com/ows/soldiersinquiry.html
elanuslecurus@lycos.com
I read that, even though your color scheme makes it really difficult to read it. Your basic premise is:
Article V actually says this:
So if Congress doesn't deem it necessary, or it more than two-thirds of the state legislatures don't deem it necessary, then nothing happens. that's what the Constitution says. So how has Congress acted unconstitutionally for the last hundred years?
Article 5 convention NOW!
The information is here,
http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
They have claimed that they deny a convention because the states were not asking for it in the same year, or about the same amendments, or it can only be on amendment, or the states have to apply in the same year on the same amendment.
In 100 they've made a huge mess. They are guilty, not worth trying to figure out HOW guilty WHEN. They gotta' go if they do that crap.
Here are the laws violated in the process.
Federal law regulating oath of office by government officials is divided into four parts along with an executive order which further defines the law for purposes of enforcement. 5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office congressional members were required to take before assuming office.
5 U.S.C. 3333 required you to sign an affidavit that you took the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not nor will violate that oath during your tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law,
5 U.S.C. 7311, which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense for anyone employed in the United States Government to “advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government.”,
18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: removal from office, imprisonment, and a fine.
Executive Order 10450 specifies a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
The definition of “advocate” is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311.
According to Executive Order 10450 (and therefore 5 U.S. 7311) any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331 which alters the form of government other than by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311. Such alteration without amendment is criminal violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 and 18 U.S.C. 1918.
In 1939 the supreme court violated Executive Order 10450 specifiing a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311
http://www.foa5c.org/file.php/1/Articles/Coleman.htm
Acts relating to campaign finance are also unconstitutional and comprise “the alteration…of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means"
With statements like you've made, it would be very easy to identify you as operative of cognitive infiltration. Congress must immediately call a convention to propose amendments to the constitution, period, or be formally unconstitutional.
I asked you a simple question about the topic that you're promoting. You're going around trying to get people to talk about something, and then if somebody asks you about it you declare them to be "cognitive infiltration"?!?
If Congress, or the state legislatures, don't feel the need for an Article V convention, then will be no Article V convention. Article V is clear on that. Congress and the state legislatures have not called for one, so there hasn't been one. Pretty simple stuff.
You say that "In 1939 the supreme court violated Executive Order 10450". What gave you the idea that an executive order, from the executive branch, affects the judicial branch? Have you ever taken a civics class? The President doesn't get to order the Supreme Court around. That isn't how it works. Have you actually read the Constitution?
Article 5 convention NOW!
TechJunkie wrote:
Have you actually read the Constitution? END------
Yes, and "emergency orders" is not constitutional Some are unconstitutional if, citizens deem it constitutional. A judge is a federal employee, they cannot take unconstitutional actions . . . period.
When you do not discuss the proof here separate from that,
http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
you display your selectivity in your attack upon those working to defend the constitutional. You are providing comfort and aid to those who are usurping the constititution, working to conceal treason.
Free speech is abridged. If it wasn't the citizens of the states would be crawling all over their legislators. You try to justify the people deprival of information as reason to allow state governments that are infiltrated to ignore the need for defense of the Constitution.
Your intent is very clear.
You don't get to decide what is unconstitutional and what isn't. That's the function of the judicial branch.
I'm increasingly certain that you have never taken a civics class, and that you don't understand how the Constitution, or our government, actually works.
Article 5 convention NOW!
As a citizen, with other citizens, we can deem any unconstitutionality one that will be resolved by amendment. The supreme court can only interpret, and when that is unconstitutional, the citizens can amend and secure constitutional performance of the court.
The infiltration thinks very highly of you for pretending you cannot see unconstitutional actions, let alone pretending schools actually teach enough to understand. The supreme court, 1939 wrote;
The Constitution grants Congress exclusive power to control submission of constitutional amendments. ..."
http://www.foa5c.org/file.php/1/Articles/Coleman.
A outright violation of their oaths. And from about that time on, our nation has been loosing its consitutionality in a big way.
Why was that ruling an, "outright violation of [Supreme Court justice] oaths"?
You clearly haven't even taken the time to read the Constitution if you think that citizens, not the judicial branch, are the arbiters of constitutionality.
And if you had taken the time to read the Constitution, then you would know what would have to happen for an Article 5 convention. That hasn't happened, and that's why there hasn't been an Article 5 convention.
Your position against the constitution is well shown. Your support of the status quo is obvious.
Article 5 hasn't happened because we haven't has a constitutional congress since the civil war began. Meaning you are ignorant or a traitor. Which will it be?
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep.html
When the Southern states walked out of Congress on March 27, 1861, the quorum to conduct business under the Constitution was lost. The only votes that Congress could lawfully take, under Parliamentary Law, were those to set the time to reconvene, take a vote to get a quorum, and vote to adjourn and set a date, time, and place to reconvene at a later time, but instead, Congress abandoned the House and Senate without setting a date to reconvene. Under the parliamentary law of Congress, when this happened, Congress became sine die (pronounced see-na dee-a; literally "without day") and thus when Congress adjourned sine die, it ceased to exist as a lawful deliberative body, and the only lawful, constitutional power that could declare war was no longer lawful, or in session.
The Southern states, by virtue of their secession from the Union, also ceased to exist sine die, and some state legislatures in the Northern bloc also adjourned sine die, and thus, all the states which were parties to creating the Constitution ceased to exist. President Lincoln executed the first executive order written by any President on April 15, 1861, Executive Order 1, and the nation has been ruled by the President under executive order ever since. When Congress eventually did reconvene, it was reconvened under the military authority of the Commander-in-Chief and not by Rules of Order for Parliamentary bodies or by Constitutional Law; placing the American people under martial rule ever since that national emergency declared by President Lincoln. The Constitution for the United States of America temporarily ceased to be the law of the land, and the President, Congress, and the Courts unlawfully presumed that they were free to remake the nation in their own image, whereas, lawfully, no constitutional provisions were in place which afforded power to any of the actions which were taken which presumed to place the nation under the new form of control.
What you posted is so crazy and schizophrenic that it's barely worthy of a response. Firstly, I'm trying to respond and ask you questions, but you keep getting more and more extreme with your name-calling. I'm not calling you names, so please stop calling me "ignorant", "traitor", "infiltrator", etc. Very few other people are even attempting to respond to you, and presumably your goal is to get people to talk about this stuff. So please just cut it out. I'm just another user of this forum like you, I'm not a government agent.
The rest of your post reads like a bad knockoff of the DaVinci Code. Abraham Lincoln took over all three branches of government during the Civil War? That isn't how our government works. Are you saying that our government has been secretly under control of an Executive Branch conspiracy for the last 150 years?
The infiltrators and usurpers of the constitution would love your posting! That you would call a deceased scholar, Bob Hardison (barefoots world), a true patriot a "schizophrenic" would particulary delight them.
Bob Hardison, there we go. That was exactly the information that we needed here in the pilot base where we're flying the drones that are circling over your house right now. The drone pilots and all of the psy-ops guys have been waiting for you to confirm the source of your forbidden knowledge so that we can take the next step.
Article 5 convention NOW!
Your efforts to marginalize only show that you have no way to be anything but against the constitution, because I am obviously supporting it.
Preparatory amendment is needed in order to conduct an article V convention with full constitutional intent.
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
Article V has the potential to be the ultimate democratic event in America, true information, fair campaign finance and secure voting systems are needed to conduct democracy on that level.
I did not say you were a dumb ass. It is pretty obvious in my opinion that everyone can further there education through interaction with other humans.
It's always amazing to me how people cannot understand how their remarks are insulting to others? I heard a news report where Gingrich effectively characterizes African Americans as the welfare class, when in fact their unemployment rate is only moderately higher than the white unemployment rate, the majority of people on welfare are in fact white, and there's plenty of African American millionaires, intellectuals, and so on (and most African Americans are in the middle/working class).
I'm not saying your remarks are analogous to Gingrich's remarks, but they do have one thing in common. I'm quite sure Gingrich believes his remarks were well intended, accurate, and useful ... and I bet you think the same of your remarks.
Newsflash: the remarks you made above, in your original post, are not useful, they're insulting, and grossly inaccurate. We're not perfect, we fuck up, say stupid things, but the mature adult (upon realizing he or she said something stupid and insulting) simply apologizes and moves on.
The unemployment rate for blacks is nearly twice as high as whites and considering that whites are around 70% of the population while blacks remain around 13%, it stands to reason that there will be more whites on welfare. Look at the percentages of each group to get the true stats. Per capita, blacks have higher unemployment and welfare recipients than whites. A large part of that is due to the lack of a good education in the black neighborhoods, but another part of the problem is the current state of the black community itself. No one ever wants to acknowledge the problem for fear of being labeled a racist, but that is why the problem is not likely to be fixed any time soon.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t02.htm
You are right. The major problem with our society is NOT racism but the utilization of the "race card" to intimidate people of a different political opinion into not going against your opinions. The best example is when anyone opposed Obamacare they were called racist because Obama was black... half black.... Instead of debating the differences of political policy opinions on the subject you heard the entire Democrat/Left side of the political aisle accuse them of being racists.... )The race card) Then we STILL have Sharpton, J. Jackson and others preaching the black hatred of white America and their constant utilization of the race card. But their reasons are not to further the elimination of racism but to keep it stirred up so they are not designated as having pointless, outdated viewpoints. And because we have the left side of the political arena constantly utilizing the race card to intimidate the right side, we will never solve the problem of the higher unemployment within blacks or other minorities, and we will never solve the problem with the high cost of entitlements, nor study how the entitlements are probably keeping the poor people down. What I mean is how long has America had government sponsored welfare programs? Since the Great Depression and before. Have we ever reduced the people enrolled on welfare or solved poverty in the US? All entitlement programs do as they are ran currently is increase people's dependency on the government, increasing the size and cost of the government, which consolidates more and more power in the hands of the few people in the federal elected offices and some of the super rich. AND this is not just the supposed evil white rich guy on wall street or the evil racist republicans. The power is consolidated on the establishment politcos in DC and those who donate the most money to their campaigns on both sides of the political aisle.
You are completely correct in my opinion. However, I am trying to change what I can.
You can't change culture. It has to come from within and over time.
Well as Gandhi said be the change you want to see in your environment.
[Deleted]
i think he should join up - then let us know how it works out!
That implies that one would want to change. Changing direction is much harder than continuing on the current path. Fortunately (or unfortunately), we are not quite at the breaking point where people will actually get out to fight for the change yet. OWS is a core group of like minded people, but the vast majority don't see the cliff ahead...yet. I only hope that when they do, it won't be too late. Folks need to get over the political divide as that is only speeding our eventual demise. Both "sides" are too rigid in their beliefs, whether misguided or not, and are unwilling to compromise for the greater good. It is in that rigidness and insistence on seeing people as only conservative or liberal that we sow the seeds of a bleak future.
Its people like you that give me hope. I thank you for your conversation.
The unemployment rate for African Americans is 15.8%. That means 84.2% of African Americans are not considered unemployed (using the same metrics as we use when calculating the white unemployment rate). Good job, you've demonstrated that fucktardation lives on in America.
You said that "Gingrich effectively characterizes African Americans as the welfare class, when in fact their unemployment rate is only moderately higher than the white unemployment rate". White unemployment is at 7.2% and black unemployment is at 15.8% which is more than twice as high of a percentage. Not moderate, not a bit, not slightly, but over 100% greater. "Fucktardation" is a reactionary a-hole who can't add ^^^..
You can always play with statistics right, and we can see what side you're slanting the numbers on. 84.2% of African Americans, and 92.7% of white people are unemployed. This is in fact a moderate difference, in the context of Gingrich's remarks. Yet he frames the statistic in a way slanted to create a racist misconception about African Americans.
In other words, Gingrich is an ass hole, and since you support his remarks (and the racist stereotyping intrinsic in those remarks) ... you get the picture.
And again..."No one ever wants to acknowledge the problem for fear of being labeled a racist, but that is why the problem is not likely to be fixed any time soon." Keep that head in the sand. I am sure the ills of the world will correct themselves as long as you keep ignoring the problem.
Twice as high is not a "moderate difference", sorry. That isn't "playing with statistics." Unemployment for blacks is twice as high as for whites. That's significant.
I'm not saying this to defend Gingrich. I just can't believe that you would double down on your false assertion after multiple people have corrected you. Unemployment among blacks is twice as high as for whites. That's significant.
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Well let me explain what I know. Well it is impossible for me to offend you. Whatever happens in the world is real. What ever you think should of happened isn't real. You are not disappointed by the world. You are disappointed by your own projections. If you meet a person and say they are a wonderful person.Then they turn out to be different then suspected you get mad. You say she isn't that wonderful... it is your own projections that you are upset about not them. They do not hurt you ... they are normal to there values... Just because someone is different then you shouldn't mean you can get upset. You are only getting upset with your judgement on that person. Do you understand? My value system is different then yours. I do know that anger is a second hand emotion that is derived from disappointment. Actually getting upset and angry only hurts me it hurts no one else. I have decided to not get upset with other peoples actions because I can not control other people. Nor do I want to control anyone. I apologize if my words have led you in the wrong direction. I ask that instead of making judgement calls on me you should just ask where I may be failing you in clarification.
You didn't go to one of those Waldorf schools as a child, did you? Because that is the most incoherent, passive-aggressive, ethnocentric, judgmental and privileged statement I have seen in a long time and only someone who was brought up thinking everything that spills out of their mouth, regardless of how inane, is valid and worthy.
You seriously need to check your privilege and stop trying to "enlighten" others.
Well I do not understand where it is I failed you. If you would like to have a conversation about your disagreement with what I have said please let me know.
Dude, you're right about one thing, dumbass fucktards cannot insult me (and I have really thick skin anyway, so even quasi-intelligent people can't insult me). As to the rest of your rant .. bla, bla, bla.
I do not want to insult you at all. I just want to have a conversation. No one wants to have one they all want to hate on me for what I believe it seems like.
I find it a great example of the failure of the OWS, when someone who has not served in the military thinks they are the next great white hope of our nation and can assume to know what is best for the people within the military, let alone the also arrogant assumption that they are somehow representing 99% of our population. People in the Military are not a bunch of idiot lemmings. They are respectable people who willingly volunteered to serve our nation and provide security for all of our citizens, even those who sit in a park vandalizing personal property, treating area business owners poorly by abusing their property and disrupting their business, by conglomerating a bunch or people in parks where violent crimes take place and then are not reported to the police, where total lack of respect for the law takes place on a daily and hourly basis.
I am sorry if I have mislead you. I do not believe in doing wrong against the law in violent manner. I do not think soldiers are dumb. I think they are brought up in our current value system. I believe most of the human value systems found in today's society are very primitive.
@ 4THSP : I think that you'll be interested in : http://occupywallst.org/forum/vet-soldier-says-the-military-is-waking-up-to-fema/ . fiat lux ...
Why would you be so crass in your assessment of this person? If they feel that they have a opinion to offer that this individual would help the people, why would you be opposed to that? It seems to me that you are being offensive to the men and women of the military in saying that they couldn't hear this person viewpoint and discern what is correct and what is incorrect and the decide what would be the best course of action for our nation. The military is a prime example of classism, because the rich can keep there children out of harms way, including when there is a draft, so don't bring that issue up unless you are willing to admit that fact. The republican presidential candidates are currently using attacks aimed at pointing this fact out currently, so don't say it's an OWS thing. So, yes the military does represent the population at large, but it is manipulated by a group that doesn't represent the population when corporations are the main beneficiaries of military action. If you have evidence of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan being beneficial to America as a whole, please share.
@fabianmockian "If they feel that they have a opinion to offer that this individual would help the people, why would you be opposed to that?"
I'm not opposed to anyone voicing their opinion; in fact, I encourage them to; however, it is offensive to assume that by the mere fact of serving in our nation's military soldiers are somehow unaware and uninformed of current events and issues.
"It seems to me that you are being offensive to the men and women of the military in saying that they couldn't hear this person viewpoint and discern what is correct and what is incorrect and the decide what would be the best course of action for our nation"
You share with 4TheHumanSocietyProject an astounding ignorance of what the actual function of any military is and a total lack of comprehension of what soldiers can and cannot do-the primary example being that they have the option of deciding and acting upon "the best course of action for our nation".
FYI even Mao, Fidel Castro and Ho Chi Minh expected-no, demanded-that their soldiers follow orders without question or face the consequences. It's not unique to our military by any means.
"The military is a prime example of classism, because the rich can keep there children out of harms way, including when there is a draft, so don't bring that issue up unless you are willing to admit that fact"
So I can't point out someone's (or even your own) classism because you believe the military is comprised solely of the lower classes? Not only is that a ridiculous position but you are wrong-the military is representative of the US population, which even you admit in subsequent sentences.
"So, yes the military does represent the population at large, but it is manipulated by a group that doesn't represent the population when corporations are the main beneficiaries..."
You can say that about anything (ie local governments, universities, hospitals, etc) in our present society. You and the OP seem totally uninformed about our nation's military and your participation in this movement does not bode well for OWS as you bring your privilege and outdated prejudices with you. Take a trip though our country and live among citizens from different backgrounds. You will learn much about our country.
I sincerely hope you educate yourself.
You make no sense, because I can't tell whether you like the military or that those serving have their own opinions or whether you agree or disagree with the fact that the rich and/or powerful have used their influence to keep their offspring out of the military. This is a fact, not speculation, but I never said that all rich people keep their children out of the army, but I do believe the smart ones do when there is a war nowadays. I know that the military is supposed to follow orders without question, but I also believe that Bush ruined that by sending our armed forces into a pointless unjustified, illegal war. But the military has shown dissidence in the past and played a major role in getting us out of another unjust war Vietnam. Look into that and educate yourself, because although I am not certain of what you said, but you sound like you are ignorant to the fact that regardless of your opinion towards OWS, those in power these days do only seem to benefit the rich. And I see by your profile, you are a troll, so please stop wasting the adults time.
@fabianmockian I see you're resorting to personal attacks rather than facts. This isn't about whether I like the military or not, its about the mistaken assumption that soldiers are unaware of current events.
It also isn't about President Bush or Vietnam, either. President Obama has shown himself to be even more willing on trample on the Bill of Rights and has engaged in extra-judicial murder (even of US citizens, no less) but like all mindless drones, you seem to be focused on beating the dead horse that is our former President instead.
Vietnam? You clearly were not around when the Vietnam conflict was going on because just like the OP, you fail to see that just as in the US population at large, opinion was divided within the military. Many soldiers protested against our involvement and many supported it.
LOL @ u-I'm calling troll ON YOU as it seems you're of those sock puppets that's part of the US version of Operation Earnest Voice.
Nice try but no cigar, kid.
No. you made no sense and you still don't. It seems to me that you were trying to say that the military are not allowed to think on their own in your previous post and now it seems you're saying that the military can make up their own minds. Which one is it, because you are sounding like someone with split personalities.
That fact that military personnel were divided on their stance about Vietnam is proof that you were wrong or are right, depending on which stance you are taking today (I guess this would be what makes Mitt Romney so relatable to you). And the fact that the pentagon spends so much money on public relations, which creates generals like McChrystal who undermines the civilian control of the military (the President) and celebrity generals like Patraeus serves as further proof that the military does if fact have their own opinions and are willing to exert them.
But the main reason you make no sense (to me) is that you seem to arguing in favor of my initial point, which was that people who are involved in OWS should be allowed to join the military and share their opinions with those already in the military, because the people of the military can make up their minds. So, tell me how does your opinion differ from what I was saying in the first place again?
So, next time you post, please be clear about what you're trying to say or don't say anything, because you not only confuse yourself further, but you are wasting everyone's time.
I think everyone should be enrolled in the service for at least 2 years. It'll teach them responsibility, independence and value.
Well, I don't know about the value. Well, maybe I was expecting a little to much with the independence. Ah damm, I don't know about the "being responsible" either.
I really don't know what to say about this - I am embarrased for bringing it up. I guess I was looking it from a "I am an American" perspective but I don't know how many people out there are "loyal to America" anymore.
Well, maybe the older folks are - I know for sure the WW II vets along with the Vietnam Vets and a lot of the Iraq/afganstan vets were.
Well maybe most people who have already served are considered "loyal to America" and for what it stands - now remember I said "most". OK
I think you touched on a very important fact Steve. . Loyalty. The people who have served our country have shown and continue to show their loyalty to this country and this is exactly why we should not only have leaders who are for keeping taxes low on the rich (of which many of our leaders are part of), because it appears to me that their argument is to put profits above all else, including the profits that can be made in conflict. If our current leaders really cared about the people of this nation and its security they would never have gone into Iraq, because there was no benefit in doing so and no one has come out and proven otherwise and no one has provided proof that there was ever a known benefit that the Bush administration saw in going into Iraq. In my opinion, Bush only served to undermine our military, because those serving nowadays have to be wondering if our involvement anywhere in the world is justified when we just waged an almost 10 year war that was started on lies and netted nothing for us. No security increase, economic burden increased, lose of liberties. How could anyone in the military not question the Commander and Chief after Bush? and how could anyone in the military not be concerned when candidates running for president our saying things like: "I would send troops back into Iraq immediately. . . "
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Well I do not think I said anyone requires my education. If I did I made a mistake. I simply implied that I would like to share and talk to them. I am fully aware of the people in the military and I know people in the military.
Actually you did: "I was thinking about joining the military to educate the men and women of what is occurring..."
Again, you should sincerely interact with soldiers before making assumptions that do not correlate with facts and hopefully you will educate yourself before attempting to educate others.
And on another note, expecting soldiers to "come to our side" "when the shit hits the fan" is rather ambiguous. To do what, exactly? Soldiers have specific skills and unless you're referring to having them passively resist any actions against fellow citizens, I suggest you re-examine the implications of what you are saying.
Actually you did: "I was thinking about joining the military to educate the men and women of what is occurring..." < please show me where I said it is required. I did not say It is required for me to educate anyone. I believe I can educate people on a lot. that is my opinion and I am entitled to it. I do sincerely interact with soldiers. I can expect whatever I want. I do hope that they will passively resist actions. What I do not understand is how people do not get that killing people or arresting them does not work... The facts present this... people still kill people and commit crimes even when we arrest people and kill people. The environment that they grew up in or the value system that created them is still very much alive. Until we fix that there will be more criminals and more justified killing. I believe war is the maximum expression of ignorance.
you specifically stated in your opening comment that you felt you needed to join the military to educate the men and women within.....
as for military members resisting actions... when you enlist or get commissioned you VOLUNTARILY sign on a dotted line and pledge an oath to serve the nation and to obey all orders... research the pledge that you would be required to take prior to joining the military. If you cannot abide by that oath, then do not join....
You truly are naïve but worse, arrogant. I don't think you even understand what the purpose of a soldier, an army or the military is. The US military is not, at this point, arresting or killing US citizens. If you want to discuss how our government has defined the role of our military in other countries and the legitimacy of such actions, fine; however, I strongly suggest you not join the US military for your own safety and sanity.
Also, not debating semantics here. You are well aware of what you wrote and it's meaning.
I am well aware of what I wrote and it is not what you are stating. I did not say us citizens. I did not even specify that what I am talking about pertains to just America. The reason I didn't specify is because there is no specifications I am applying that to every single human. You keep making all of these judgment calls on me and you do not ask me any questions. So I am going to ask you. Why do you think I am naive but worse? Why do you think I am arrogant?
Your privilege does not allow you to consider that you are wrong; like francismjenkins wrote: "the mature adult (upon realizing he or she said something stupid and insulting) simply apologizes and moves on". For some reason, you are incapable of doing just that.
You are either:
Not very bright
Cannot express yourself properly in English nor properly comprehend the English language, or
Both
On second thought, go ahead and join the military; it may "enlighten" you in ways you do not foresee.
Well where is it that you feel I am wrong?
It may be an interesting experience for you but I doubt you'll have much success changing opinions. People don't seem to change their mind on things very easily. Look at this forum, we offer a point of view, facts and opinion to each other. You'll see the same people posting the same message in a different way and getting the same type of response over and over. No one changing at all.
It may be possible to influence some that haven't formed opinions yet, but you'll be working against authority figures that will be doing more "educating" they you'll have time for.
You probably are the only person who responded in a educated manner. I do understand your point of view. That seems to be a issue with a lot of people. They refuse the facts.
Thank you. I suppose it's one of the many problems of our species, we argue to win not to learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J6-WEALcts
I find it a great example of the failure of the OWS, when someone who has not served in the military thinks they are the next great white hope of our nation and can assume to know what is best for the people within the military, let alone the also arrogant assumption that they are somehow representing 99% of our population. People in the Military are not a bunch of idiot lemmings. They are respectable people who willingly volunteered to serve our nation and provide security for all of our citizens, even those who sit in a park vandalizing personal property, treating area business owners poorly by abusing their property and disrupting their business, by conglomerating a bunch or people in parks where violent crimes take place and then are not reported to the police, where total lack of respect for the law takes place on a daily and hourly basis.
The military is a culture separate from the rest of US society. We have our own norms and rituals that are not likely to be influenced or changed by one soft hearted protester. We are fully aware of what is going on in the world and know right from wrong. You seem to think that an armed revolution is coming; that may be, but rest assured that we who have sworn to defend the nation and the Constitution will do what is right.
well I do not believe that is so. If they know what right and wrong is why do they continue to kill? Do they even know why we kill? does anyone think about it?
This reply of yours has to be the most asinine statement you've made so far.
"why do they continue to kill? Do they even know why we kill?"
Do you even know anything about Human life on the planet Earth? Were you raised in an institution? Have you been sheltered?
If your answer to any of these questions is yes,then I'm sorry and I understand,otherwise you've got some serious issues.
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LMAO,killer reply. 4TheHumanSocietyProject needs to learn about the world and the difference between reality and his ideology.
Take a copy of Black Hawk Down and use CGI to insert a skinny kid in a Hari Krishna robe passing out daisies to the rebels.
Yes,great analogy that's exactly what we're dealing with here.
Well I am not a sheltered kid. I think I know why people kill. I think I understand why people kill. I know a a lot about the human life on planet earth... so I think. I think that you know what you know cause you have been taught it through your trials and tribulations so to speak. When you were born you had absolutely no idea how to kill or why to kill. You knew nothing at all what so ever. If you believe that is incorrect then I am sorry. Do you know why you hate other people? Well I believe you do not hate anyone. You only hate what you project. If you meet a person for the first time you make expectations and if that person doesn't do what you want you get mad at them... That seems a little crazy in my opinion. The other person grew up and the things they do may be OK to them because that is what they were brought up around. Sure people all have the power of choice but it is apparent that they have no power over what they know to make that choice. It is society that is what teaches people what to do and what to say. Do you understand what I am saying? If not please ask me more questions
This is really simple,you make it all so needlessly complex.
If someone comes up to you on the street and tries to kill you,are you going to defend your life?
The answer is just as simple.
Yes but not by beating him or shooting him. If I die I die. I will not kill because it is just prolonging us uniting in peace.
If defending your life means killing another person that is the perp,you wouldn't do it? Does your life mean that little to you?
I don't think I gave you a fair situation. Your instincts would take over and basically you would not be intellectualizing the encounter,neither would anybody else (unless you were a trained soldier or police officer).
So that really makes this all moot.
No my life has much value to me. In my opinion you are asking me to be afraid for my life. I refuse to live in fear. I also refuse to kill. I understand that the reason people kill is because they are taught to kill. Instincts are a product of both experience and intuition. Whereas intuition is a continual process of environmental information filtering, instincts are the resulting beliefs created by the data processed by intuitive functions. We instinctually know from experience, for instance, to seek shelter during harsh weather.
This is funny. I KNOW 100% for sure that if you had a wife or husband and or a child and someone was entering your home with a weapon to do you and your family harm you would either be a coward and not defend your family or you would take responsiblity for your family and do all things within your power to protect your family's lives. Even if this meant taking the life of another human being.
Given the reasoning, but not logic, of your statements, you are saying that you think we should just disband our military and refuse to stand up to terrorists or nations like Russia, or Venezuela or N. Korea or Iran or any other nation that is totally anti-America and just allow them to enter our borders and take us over because dying without fighting is somehow a greater good than protecting the lives and property of our fellow country men. I paraphrase... but no greater service is ever done than laying down your own live so that others may live.
There are some basic survival instincts that every human is born with. If you don't have these then it would be considered a birth defect. One is the fear of the unknown, which when you use your imagination you can easily understand that. Another is a basic self-preservation instinct. If for what ever reason your life seems to be threatened then adrenaline will start pumping, your heart rate will increase your thought process will increase, your senses will be keener, and you will naturally become more aggressive. This will either cause you to run in most cases or if that is not option then your instincts will force you to fight. Does not matter who or what it is you will fight tooth and nail for your own survival. So when you say "I also refuse to kill" you really dont have a choice in that because when it comes down to the wire, most likely you will kill or be killed of course. In conclusion everyone has the ability to kill, it is not something we are taught to do.
I am sorry but I do not believe that. Of course you have the abilty to kill. However having the ability to kill and killing are two different things. I have seen the research on both arguments. Instinct or product of design. I am more about product of design. There once were birds that pecked at there young. They are now extinct. There was once alligators that did not defend there young. They are now extinct. All evolution is exactly what the word means evolution. A baby learns the voice of its mother in 7 seconds from the moment it is born. From the very second you are born you are learning continually. That is what I believe. It makes more sense to me. The research for instinct does not sit well with me. I have thought about it over and over again. There is other men out there like Jacque Fresco who believe in the same things. There is not enough information to explain instinct for me to make a logical assumption that we are born with it. The whole fighting thing well if you are born into a monk family it is more then likely you will never fight. If you are raised in a Buddhist community it is more then likely you will never fight.
So to in your concept of learning by design, the people who refuse to fight to protect their families, offspring and their fellow citizens, they too are extinct. This just leave the aggressive type of people to continue in their own ways. This is no different than how France and most of Europe treated Hitler... appeasement and refusal to stand and fight almost led to the total destruction of Europe and the consequences would have been even more horrific if Hitler would have won WWII, where all jews and minorities in the world would have been exterminated. At some point there is a MORAL imperative that you stand up for what is right and protecting your family and your nation is one of those instances that dictate you stand up for yourself.
If we continue in the manner you speak of the probability of us all killing ourselves is extremely high. I believe we have the intelligence and know how to come to a peaceful resolve and work on things that have importance to the well being of the human race as a entirety.
You have to realize we are not so evolved from our predecessors. Now I will admit we are taught things such as how to kill. But it is undeniable that we are born with instincts. If you don't believe me then try something on a new born. Hold it level in your arms then quickly drop your arms but do not drop the baby. They baby's arms and legs will fly out. This is a basic instinct that all babies are born with. We lose that after about a month. This is completely true you can look it up. My father performed this on all of my brothers and sisters ( he is a doctor) to make sure there was nothing wrong with us.
Well Our species is very intelligent. You learn how gravity feels immediately. once the bottom of your brace leaves you try to re brace yourself. I do not believe that is instinct but what you learn from gravity alone. Your body will react based on your 5 sense. That is what I have learned. If you do not want to believe me that is fine. Just think about it for yourself. Draw your own conclusions. Research it, think about it,so on in so forth.
Because you are not paid to make decisions at the lower levels. You are paid to follow orders and if you do not you get in major trouble for it.
So it probably is a bad idea?
It depends on what or opinion is. I personally don't think so when it is within reason.
Well I can follow orders no problem. I was just thinking about maybe talking with some people in the military and maybe helping them along there way in life. I have more of a Jacque Fresco belief system.
Talk on TED?
I do not know what TED is.
Google it. TED.org. Great website.
What do you think the job of the military is? Don't be so naive. Killing is a part of human nature and the military is a tool of the government to carry it out. We the people elect the government and they start the wars, not the military. Don't like war? Vote for a pacifist; but in case you haven't noticed, nearly every member of Congress keeps funding the military and keeps sending us of to dirty crap holes to fight.
The job of the military is to protect the united states of America. I am fully aware of how the current society works. Killing is not apart of human nature in my opinion. Because humans have no nature. They are born and taught everything they know. If you were born into a monk society you would never kill. If you were born into a Buddhist community you would probably not kill. If you are not exposed to killing you will probably not kill. I am fully aware of the situation we are currently in. I do not believe that we have to do it any longer because scientific study's prove other wise.
What do you say to the millions of middle class Americans, both civilian and military, who make their livelihoods from our country's military spending?
Well I believe in a Resource based economy. There is plenty of resources on this planet to feed and shelter everyone on earth. There is plenty of resources to have every person go to school and learn more about there environment and science. They can learn about whatever it is they would like to pursue. I believe money and military only slows us as a human race from becoming a non violent race that plans to move throughout the universe. Or as some scientist call it a type 1 civilization.
Since the dawn of human civilization there have been wars and some kind of currency. To think that would change now is pretty naive.
So like I said, if you actually dramatically cut military spending, millions of members of the middle class will be laid off. So these people are just out of a job? Civilians and soldiers alike , who once had good paying jobs with benefits, are just laid off?
Something like this in no way whatsoever reflects the views of the 99% and you are much more likely to turn people away from Occupy if you attempt to "educate" them.
Well why do you think that there has been war since the beginning of time? I really like to think about these things. I think that in the beginning of time men had no idea of what was going on. They just did things and didn't use logical thinking. I mean who could blame them? they didnt know any better. So we continued waging war. Over time our brains have evolved and we have become more civilized human beings. I believe there is a way to have a world without violence. I believe this is possible because I know that if a baby is born knowing nothing he can be molded any way we see fit. For example if you are born in the amazon you become a amazon head hunter. If you are born in a Arab nation you become a Muslim. If you are born in America you become a assortment of things. if you are born into a Buddhist type society you are more then likely not going to be violent. We need to come together and reconstruct our society. If we do not do these things the probability of mass extinction by humans is very great. That is the only point I wish to make. This is all my opinion based on the research I have done on Dali lama, Albert Einstein, Gandhi and Jacque Fresco. If there is anything you do not believe please feel free to look it up or ask me if I can help.
People kill others and start wars because they inherently care about themselves and their people more than other groups. It is an evolved trait that will never be broken.
Well when a baby is born there brain is a blank canvas. Scientists have proven this. I do not want you to believe me, look it up for yourself.
I would love to see a link to an article where this is proven.
Human's have very basic instincts, and one of those is self-preservation. This will often lead to killing and leads to many wars. So yes no matter how you are raised everyone is capable of killing. You may not know it but it is written in your genetics.
you're the mush headed product of your mush headed teachers.
Well my teachers are Gandhi, Albert Einstein, Dali lama and of course Jacque Fresco.
That is a great idea. I would encourage you to join the Army. Spread the message. "Sgt, sir, I WILL enlighten YOU sir." You do like Bread and water? Report back.
I can envision this person trying to find time during breaks in PT, or breaks in training, or during Police Call, or KP (If they still have that) trying to preach that OWS represents 99% of the people and that the other troops need to start ignoring the lawful orders of the military chain of command because the military is owned by the 1% lol
Not in that manner. I do not mean like that. I am positive there is times when you have friendly conversations with other troops. I believe this job we have is a salesman type job. I do not believe I wont find a way to relay my message to other humans. I just have to find a way to relate to them. So please if you can have a educated discussion about this. I also said military, I never said army.
""" At the end of the day,,,,, more will be,,, SAID,,,,, than DONE. """" i dont want your discussion. I want proven examples. If you can show by example, it is far better than having a friendly conversation. I wish everyone on here would SHUT THE HELL UP,,, including ME and set good examples. If they are good,,, everyone will WANT to do it.
Well I have many examples of what I do. Instead of protesting I occupy volunteer groups and help those in need. I do not hate people, I accept who they are and see where I can benefit them. I attend OTG meetings at Occupy Orlando. We have healthy discussions and I have recently got them to make a volunteer group. We exchange ideas and go to the city hall meetings to push upon the company's that are building new things to hire from in the area. We are very involved in our area. I can only be the change I want to see in my environment. I can not make anyone do anything. I can only show people and discuss what I have done and hope people will do what they feel is right.
Your service is probably appreciated. However, you dont mention, but I would suggest YOUUUUUUU start company(s) and hire from the area. Then allow your employees to start company(s) and help them then hire employees. Show them the amount of time an owner must do to comply with local, state and federal laws, regulations, taxes, etc. Show them that most owners spend every waking moments looking at EPA rules and DOL rules and IRS rules and on and on just to make a buck. Then show them the employees will probably rob from you and take what is not theirs. Running a company is typically far more difficult than the guy that goes home at 5:00 understands. Corporations must pay taxes on,,, equipment, property, utilities, FICA, insurance, raw materials, transporation, etc and etc. Help those people by example and your rewards will be much greater.
I am well aware of what it takes to run a company. I am a retired 1%. It takes fucking over every one you can to make the money you need to be rich. My father is a multi millionaire. As long as we continue on the path you speak of there will be inequality in the world. It will probably lead to the destruction of the human race. That is something I refuse to stand by. I do not enjoy other people suffering so I can make a buck. I do not enjoy raising prices to make sure my employees get a little more and the other guy gets screwed. I do not accept that the only way of life is the doggy dog world of business. I believe in a resource based economy. I do not mention the things I do. I believe you should ask me as you have been doing. You should not jump to conclusions or make judgments. You should think as a scientist would and ask questions and make assessments on what the answers are. That is all just my opinion. I do not mean to offend you. I just have my way of looking at the world and you have yours.
If YOU had the answers, you wouldnt be on here. I dont have to be a scientist to know you dont have the answers. Saying that, I'm not sure why you objected to by suggestions about help people start their own company(s)????? I didnt just to any conclusions I simply suggested that it would be much better to teach a man to fish rather than give him one. Donating your time is GREAT but you will die and then what will they do? Teach them some examples and allow them to return the favor to others. I didnt suggest they bite other peoples ass to get what they want,,,, just set good examples.
Well you should think like a scientist. I am not not passing judgment on you so I would ask that you do not pass judgment on me.. I do have the answers to a scientific approach. It is called the venus project. It may not be a perfect world but is a much better world in my opinion.
I think thats pointless. you are assuming that the people in the military are mindless drones created to do nothing but follow orders. As the son of a military officer and a prospective officer myself i can tell you that we are just as "enlightened" as anyone else. we have just chosen a job in which we are sworn to defend the constitution. people in the military are just like everyone else. please don't assume that we are kept in the dark by the "military industrial complex" its just insulting to us and does not help whatever case you are trying to propose.
I agree, and offer my thanks to you and your father.
Well I did not say you were mindless drones. I see people in the streets every day that have no clue about what is going on. Please do not get upset with your assumptions. I think personally that 90 percent of the world does not care to look past there feet. So no this is not about the mindless drones in the military as you speak of. this is about humanity. Who will we need the most when things get bad. Who will we need to lay down there weapons and not kill anymore? I believe that is the military. This is all my opinion and I do not mean to offend you in any way.
in your post you assume that we have no or little or skewed knowledge about the world
"...what is occurring in the world and try to enlighten them."
i assure you that anyone in the military is just as enlightened as anyone else. we all have access to the same information. why have you chosen to "occupy" the military if most people don't look past their own feet? why not educate people in schools and in churches and sporting events?
Well once again. I believe that 90 percent of the world does not have a clue. Because look around you. People still kill people. We still have war. We still have starvation. we still have people that hate. When you really think about it we all are at fault. That is why I would like to go into the military to maybe help people remove hate from there hearts to become better people. Just like I would want the people in schools or churches. I used the word occupy to relate to occupy wallstreet.
so you assume that people in the military hate? in having trouble discovering why you have singled out the military. in response to war, starvation, etc. those are natural parts of the anarchy that exists in the international system. people have been murdering and killing and starving and warring since the first days of man. its no ones fault. its the nature of man to do those things, horrible as they are. what do you hope to accomplish should you "enlighten" the military? what is your end goal with that action?
I really have a hard time understanding why you do not read what I write. I said... 90 percent of the world... Not 90 percent of the military... the world. Then I said thats why I would like to go into the military to maybe help remove hate from there hearts. Just like I would want the people in schools and churches. I believe you are wrong to say it is the nature of man to do those things. It is not the nature of man. there is no nature of man. We are the product of our environment. When a baby is born they know nothing. Through time they watch tv and other people. They go to school and learn from there parents. They continue to pick up and learn things as they go along in life. The way I see it when man was born in the beginning of time they had no direction. They used trial and error to figure things out. All of that has led us to this point where we are. Now we have the ability to change all the bullshit that makes our corrupt and sad world. People steal and kill out of necessity at first. That is what destroy a man. They are not givin what they need so they go on what they have been taught throughout society. What works you could say. So they steal and kill and hate because they need to at first. Then it becomes a way of life. You do not have to believe me. I really just want you to think about it and draw conclusions on your own.
Hey, go ahead and do that.
Boot camp is nice this time of year.
haha. I detect sarcasm. I really want to have a educated discussion about this. Maybe bring to light something I fail to see.
The soldiers of the world are blinded by patriotism. If they could see, they would refuse to follow tyrants.
I deleted all my other comments. You touched a nerve, and I reacted with comments lacking respect. For that I apologize. Let me try again.
First, there are some erroneous assumptions underlying your statement.
I am ex-military, my daughter is currently active duty, and I know a lot of people in the military. There is a culture in the military that you likely don't understand. These people would never fire en masse on US civilians unless they were called in by local authorities to counter very large numbers of armed insurgents seeking the violent overthrow of the government which they are sworn to uphold. Even then, I doubt many of them would fire on fellow citizens. The entire subject is moot because OWS is a non-violent protest movement and it is not even close to having a large enough number of supporters to spark intervention by the military.
The National Guard would be called in well before the military due to posse comitatus. While the members of the Guard used to be blatant amateurs with poor discipline (Kent State, 1970), they have since been reshaped into a profession force via their role fight along side the professional military in the Middle East. Again, OWS is non-violent, and it hasn't even begun to be as large as the protests of the 1960's.
Due to it's non-violent nature and relatively small size, the primary force members of OWS will face is that of the local police.
I do support your suggestion in regards to opening fruitful dialog with the forces of government that we face, but the appropriate force to work with are those of the local police. By and by, these people are just like you and I, but they have seen a lot of violence, and that colors their views. This view is reinforced when OWS protesters denigrate them and coll them names for doing their job. It would be much more productive to enter into fruitful dialog with them as you suggest. They are, after all, part of the 99%, and removing the 'us vs. them' mentality that separates them from our movement will go a long way to reducing the sometimes extreme tactics they employ.
Most local police are very approachable if they are treated with respect. Try approaching one and asking, "Excuse me. I'm just wondering. How do you see this movement ?" to open dialog. Most local police also have a 'ride along' program, and you might better understand their perspective if you accompanied a few on their normal patrols.
I appreciate you trying to have a more civilized conversation. I did not intend for this to be directed as a problem only dealing with military alone. I should of cleared up my conversation to be more like there is a overall problem with the world and no one seems to address it in the military. I believe our value system as a entirety is very wrong. It is socially acceptable to lie. Then it is socially acceptable to kill other people.I like to say if you do not want terrorism stop participating in it. No one seems to want to know why people are doing the killing. No matter who you kill it seems as if the value system doesnt die. What created such evil men is still alive and kicking. I mean it seems to me as if the entire worlds population is a direct product of there environment. It is extremely hard for us to let go of our value system and pick up a new one because it is all we know. I am not trying to insult anyone at all. I am trying to conversation ideas between humans. To educate and to be educated. There is a lot I fail to see because I haven't seen it. I assume I am apart of ows because I am of the 100% human race. People in our current value system just do not care. When I say do not care. I mean they waste resources that can be utilized in sheltering the many. Its like why smoke cigarettes? It harms your body and everyone else around you. There response is i do not care I am going to live me life. I do not understand how killing your self slowly is living. Or those who drink alcohol it destroys your liver and eats away at your muscles. Also the wasted resources and money it takes to produce and distribute such a unessential items could shelter and feed the world on a daily bases. Thats right.. People do not care. I believe there is something terribly wrong with this world and there are many ways to describe why I feel this way. I believe you are correct In your ideal of approaching men and women of badge to discuss with them the movement. I also believe that this movement is violent to a degree. Yelling and screaming fuck you pigs is a form of violence which should be avoided at all cost. They provoke the police as much as the police provoke them. Gandhi would probably not approve of those such things. This is all of course my opinion.
Civilization, society, morality, the economy, and all our other institutions are like living breathing creatures that evolve over time; each carries DNA dating back to our origins that was incorporated in response to changing conditions.
Man's violence dates back to his earliest days when physical action was paramount to our survival. He killed to gain food, and to protect family. Lacking any moral compass, early man figured out that he could gain food and resources needed for survival by taking them from another. Many animals do this as well. As civilization emerged, the mores of the individual were projected onto society, and it was acceptable to kill for protection or to gain the resources needed to survive. When men are near survival, they accumulate without being constrained by immediate need; killing so he can steal resources that allowed him to survive for 1, 2, or 10 years was justifiable due to the uncertain conditions of the future.
Nation-on-Nation warfare reached it's pinnacle in the period between the Napoleonic Wars and the Nagasaki bombing. This was the period of Carl von Clausewitz's "total war" under which civilians and their economic capacity (cities, factories, infrastructure, communications, etc) were considered legitimate targets. Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) was the ultimate outcome of total war, and society has modified it's DNA and mores in response to its implications. The US military, in particular, has spent zillions to develop strike capabilities that allow precision engagement of enemy forces with minimal civilian casualties. Total war has been excised from our DNA.
Today, we seek to move conflict over resources from physical warfare to economic competition, and we are using the Internet to eliminate the Us vs. Them mentality inherent to Tribalism and foster the emergence of the World Citizen. As part of this policy, we use our military to contain the use of military power while we provide assured connectivity of the citizens and integration of economic systems.
The globalization initiative is going very well. The people of the former USSR were freed and integrated without ever launching our nuclear forces. We have seen the emergence of global initiatives regarding the environment, our shared resources, and our economies. China is being integrated very rapidly. The only areas that remain are in the Middle East and Africa. The Middle East is coming on board quickly via the Arab Spring, and the remaining holdout, Iran, will be integrated shortly ( I predict it will happen just after their May Parliamentary elections). Africa will come next, and it won't be nearly as difficult as the others.
Once we have a global economy and citizens, we will expand our discussions regarding the environment and other shared resources. At that time, we may well be prepared to discuss some alternate form of allocating them rather than profit. I can't say. Nevertheless, large scale warfare will fade into our past and be replaced by only an occasional intervention to stop a bully from picking on the smaller kids of the playground. These bullies will emerge from time to time simply because of genetics, and they need to be handled using the only tool they understand: force. Nation on Nation warfare, however, will cease.
What I have described is the evolution of our society, our mores, and our institutions regarding war. This is how society always changes; we retain the DNA that serves us and excise the DNA that causes us harm. Wholesale revision of our DNA based on our arrogance in believing we fully understand it is just as dangerous as wholesale revision of human DNA.
Change is coming and it will continue, but it will be by evolution rather than revolution. Have patience. Your efforts are likely best spent in promoting the current steps underway than by trying to force change that will only come by evolution.
Now that is a educated man. I do believe that it is a evolutionary thing However we have the brains and technology to stop everything right now today. It is up to us to push that upon the people. We can not just sit back and hope it will eventually happen. We must put our minds to this as men had put there minds to putting a man on the moon. This is a logical problem that with logic can be fixed. The power to change the world is in each every one of us. We as a people must develop the tools to do so. We must not get angry with others. We must understand them and try to help them see they are all capable of great things. We must show humanity we all can be leaders.
We have the knowledge and technology to start modifying human DNA. Should we do so ?
Knowledge is not understanding or wisdom. We humans have a long history of using our knowledge and technology to do things that are disastrous and only gain understanding and wisdom in the aftermath (assuming we survive). Consider DDT and nuclear power, for example. DNA has evolved in response to conditions predating history that we know little about and what little history we know is not fully understood. To mess with DNA sans understanding is hazardous to man.
I am a student of history, and to my knowledge no civilization or society that was engineered has survived the inexorable power of the evolving form. Socialism and communism are perfect examples, but there have been many others both large and small. There is usually great harm done to people when they are imposed, and great harm when they crumble. Democracy and Capitalism are the evolved form; we didn't engineer them, they evolved over a very long period of time.
I understand where we're evolving to within the scope of my lifetime, and I choose to focus my efforts on sharing that understanding and trying to get people on board with moving to this next step. Responsibility for evolution to the next form will fall on my children and their children which follow.
I am absolutely positive we are on the path to a better, more fair, less violent, and responsible civilization, but it will take time. All I can do is help us take the next step.
Oh yea...they'll support out work, lazy, smelly, drugged out hippies. I suggest you guys storm Paris Island
If you last all 9 weeks of basic training, it will only be because you learned to follow orders.
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A lot. However that is irrelevant. The world faces generally the same issues. I believe every human has the ability to teach something new to other humans. I should of been more descriptive in my comment. I am not saying this problem lies within the military only. I really do not think I said that at all. People in the military or outside of the military are generally selfish and only care about them and there family.
Interesting view. Would that include, for example, the New York Fire Department ?
Well it would depend. There is many variables. People in the new york fire department do great things by saving people in the situations that they deal with. I am very grateful for that. Can they do more? Probably. I am not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I would ask that people stop calling my names and judging the shit out of me. I would ask that you think about what I am saying and ask questions where you disagree or want clarification. as you just did about the fire department. I just do not believe in the monetary system. We are just as free as our purchasing power. I do not believe in spending money on irrelevant things such as mind altering substances or food that may be harmful to my body. I would much rather spend my money on others. Others that need food and shelter. I do not think I am trying to be religious. I honestly believe the current way of life is probably going to lead us to extinction.
I think you should join the military right away. I think the Marines could probably use your services the most and there would very definitely be some enlightening going on.
Do not do that or you will spend a larg part of your life in the S tockade .
Plus, you will put yourself in a bad position. It will be against your self interests when OWS calls for militarry spending cuts. You might lose your job because of OWS actions.
I was thinking about that also. I probably would get put in military jail.
"We are the 99 percent!" is the populist cry of the Occupy Wall Street protestors and their compatriots around the country. The slogan is meant to highlight the growing wealth gap between a small amount of super-rich individuals -- constituting only 1 percent of the entire U.S. population -- and the other 99 percent of us. Where does this figure come from? The statistic that's frequently quoted by protestors and the media claims that the richest 1 percent of Americans control a third of the country's total wealth. But is this true?
First, it's important to make some distinctions. This statistic is specifically referring to wealth, not income. Income is how much money you earn in a given year. Wealth, also known as net worth, is the cumulative value of all of your assets minus your debts. What qualifies as an asset? Cash in the bank, investments (stock, bonds, CDs, 401(k)s, IRAs, etc.) real estate, jewelry, art, collectibles and anything of tangible value. Debts would include outstanding mortgage debt, student loan debt and credit card balances.
It's important to make a distinction between income and wealth because income inequality and wealth inequality aren't equal. According to research originally done by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, the top 1 percent of income earners took home 17.67 percent of the total income -- less than a fifth -- of everyone in the U.S. in 2008 [source: Alvaredo et al]. To qualify as the top 1 percent of earners, you need to make a little more than $500,000 in cash income in 2011 [source: Rampell].
Wealth inequality is far greater. According to an analysis of Federal Reserve data by the Economic Policy Institute, the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans control 35.6 percent of the total wealth of the country -- more than a third [source: Allegretto]. Even more incredible is that the richest 10 percent of Americans control 75 percent of the wealth, leaving only 25 percent to the other 90 percent of Americans.
Why is the wealth disparity so pronounced? Because it's easier to get richer when you already have a lot of money. Wealthier people can save and invest more of their money, while people of humbler financial means spend most of their paycheck on food, the mortgage, credit card bills, utilities, child care and all of the other costs of daily life, which leaves little to invest in the stock market or feed that 401(k). The Economic Policy Institute points out that in 2007, at the height of the economic bubble, half of Americans owned no stock [source: Allegretto].
Tax policy also further widens the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us. Earnings from capital gains -- the sale of stock and other investments -- are taxed at a lower rate (15 percent) than regular income [source: Appleby]. So people who make a lot of investment income get to keep more of that money than people who rely exclusively on wages.
Interestingly, the wealth gap in the U.S. is nothing new. According to the Economic Policy Institute, the wealth gap has increased by a mere 2.2 percentage points since 1962 [source: Allegretto]. The rich, apparently, have always been a lot richer. What's more alarming is that income levels have grown at increasingly uneven rates in recent decades. According to a 2011 report by the Congressional Budget Office, the income for the top 1 percent of earners grew by 275 percent from 1979 to 2007, while the income for middle-class Americans (the 21st through 80th percentile) grew by less than 40 percent [source: CBO].
For more information on money and wealth, see the links on the next page.
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Hmmmm.
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If you join today, and are enrolled for 3 years, when you return there won't be anybody to report to because this movement will be "dead".
I do not report to anyone. If this movement dies the problems it touches on will more then likely not. I do not serve anyone. I act based on what is not needed and what is needed.
We live in a world where our social system is old, our language is old, the way we acquire goods and services is outdated, our cities are detrimental to our health, chaotic and a tremendous waste of resource, and most of all our politics and values no longer serve us.
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Murder is not okay, whether in uniform or street clothes.
I am fully aware of that. I can refuse to shoot people at my own discretion. =)
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And then you get court marshaled. You get in trouble for not following orders and are punished quite severely for it.
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No he really wouldn't. Also. Even if he would caring a gun, trying to spread his philosophy wouldn't help much either.
It was to my understanding that you can refuse to carry a weapon if you like.
Only in the make-believe military, kid.
Well I actually know of a person that did that. If he lied to me then so be it. He refused to take his weapon on missions and did just that.
OK, if true, that is totally made up. Ask someone who is actually serving to verify the veracity of that statement.
Because when signing six copies of your contract it asks if you are willing to operate a firearm under direct orders and if you say no, the interview is terminated and the recruiter says "OK good luck don't let the door hit you on the way out".
True but if you don't follow orders you get in deep shit am I correct?
Yes. you are correct.
Ok thank you. And to your above post about the kid going on missions. Why the hell would he go on a mission without any protection?
He didn't believe in it. Like I said this is what someone told me. I will talk to him when he gets back from DC. Maybe I can get a name of the person and do a interview or something.
I can understand that but if you is going on missions into battle zones it makes no sense to not take a weapon even if you don't know how to shoot it. I would definitely get the details
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please dont go to war your too smart we need you here!
I wont be leaving.
you dont need to think at all. this what they said in army. how this strange idea comes to your mind? http://occupywallst.org/forum/bradley-manning-an-indie-film-takes-up-his-plight-/
Does any one have any comments?
Consider, that 'US-Leftists' (as distinct from "Wet Liberals", tho' they'd be welcome to join!) might have to (re)take an Organisational Lesson from the "Astro Turf" (cf. False Grass Roots) Tea Party and do some Real Grass Roots Organising, so please watch the following very important and revealing documentary film : "The Billionaires' Tea Party" ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_WC0FINmA !!
ad iudicium ...
What makes you think that they do not know?
because people are still stealing, hating, killing, dying of hunger and etc
Again, what makes you think that they don't know this?
Have you investigated the number of kids that join the military because they do not feel as if there are any other options?
Yes. I understand that. I am sure there is people that think like you do. I am sure there is all sorts of situations. I am just addressing that occupy doesnt work in the military to my knowledge. They are more about protesting on the streets.
" doesnt work in the military to my knowledge. They are more about protesting on the streets."
I do not understand what you are saying here, could you further explain?
occupy people for the most part protest in the streets and talk to people in the streets. They really do not reach inside the military. better? if not let me know.
So, you want to join the military to talk to the people in the military about OWS? Am I following you correctly?
Well not just OWS. Everything I can possibly think of. How every action we do affects the world.. How everything we know up until now we have been taught through our environment. How we should strive to help those in need all around the world. How we can use clean products instead of polluting. How anger is a second hand emotion that usually stems from disappointment. How we really never get disappointed in anyone it is our expectations of that person that we get upset with, our projections of what we believe they ought to do. The list could go on.
You must be a troll. I cannot believe anyone with any real world experience can be this naive.
It's clear they have no real world experience if they think weapon is optional in the US military.
I have read this person's posts today and I am in utter disbelief that someone can be so disconnected from the real world. It must be nice living a sheltered life where nothing bad ever happens and if it did, I just need to change the channel.
Please elaborate. I am not a troll. I would ask that you explain what you do not agree with. So I can explain myself better. Sometimes I make mistakes.
So.............like a missionary then?
What exactly does it mean to be a missionary? I thought that was religious thing. care to explain?
It is a religious thing. :/
good luck with your quest.
I am not doing any religious things. I just look at what is real and isnt real.