Forum Post: I Think Thomas Jefferson Should Be The Official Inspiration For This Movement
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 9, 2011, 5:13 a.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
After seeing the fake post of someone defecating on an American Flag, and having seen that lie thrust on the Occupy Movement, I think it is imperative that we stand staunchly behind Real American Values; not the trumped-up, Psudo-American, Neo-Fasciest values of Corporate Oligarchy, but Real American Values. I think Thomas Jefferson held clearly to the same vision as the Occupy Movement, and we should embrace that! It is a great starting point!
What are we fighting? "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Benito Mussolini
We are fighting propaganda. Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans. read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
"Manufacturing Consent" by Herman and Chomsky -- highly-recommended reading.
Read my book. Its on my blog. http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Chomsky is a phony. I met him in person and he's an asshole.
Whenever trolls say someone is a phony, an ---hole, or whatever felicitous turn of speech springs from the font of all their wisdom, you can probably verify that the guy/gal is the real thing. Conversely, when they wax eloquent, to the best of their ability, on someone like Ann Ryand, you can pretty quickly find that those ideas come down to what all these people's ideas finally come down to, a pretentious and verbose justification of privilige and narcisim; or what I shorten to simply, "me".
Thanks. That sounded like a compliment and now I know what a troll is. I thought trolls were in fairy tales, like all americans want.
Throwing your vote away -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
In the privacy of your own mind without anybody else knowing your thoughts, please try examining the subject that will be mentioned many times every day and night. Did you guess? Could it be the media favorite? Did you guess, its -- THROWING YOUR VOTE AWAY.
The other side of that coin is to vote against yourself. That the purpose for the media (the government propaganda arm) to force 98% of American voters to vote against themselves instead of voting for the Green Party. I intend to explain why I'm choosing the Green Party instead of the Libertarian Party. They are the only 2 national parties.
I'm going to make a youtube to explain this subject that will be easy and entertaining to understand. It should be available Monday because today is for watching the second most favorite American entertainment, NFL football.
Remember the peace dividend? The dividend was for -- who do you think? That dividend was more than $5 trillion and you never heard of it, is that what you're thinking?
Wow, after an inciteful remark like "Chomski is a phony" I'll be sure to never read your book and if I come across a copy, which is highly unlikely, I'll donate it to a use that can save a few vauable trees from being turned to bathroom uses.
Send it to OWS, they need toilet paper!
If I can find a copy I will!
Oh yeah, great post! I love it when someone takes the goons to task. Did you study political science?
I have studied a number of things in an interesting and eventful life - please remember that, "may you live in interesting times," is reputed to be a Chinese curse. But I was never able to endure the trap of academia. My fondest memories revolve around running free, free, free - over endless expanses.
Right On. Check out the Pink Floyd "Animals" lyrics I just sent you further down this thread. Are you a fan? The music Really applies to the movement. Every song, but I just sent one. If you haven't heard it, give it a listen. I'm positive you'll agree.Enjoy
"Comfortably Numb" is my favorite. It consoled me through many a long year of dismay at American apathy! I love Pink Floyd!
I'm gonna set up a Pink Floyd post, there music warns us of some of today's woes. I find Roger Waters (the lyrical genius) to be very prophetic. Many of the lyrics appear tailor made to the movement.
Ditto!
Music to march by!
Think anyone at OWS is old enough to have any Floyd on their iPOD's?
Music has been commercialized so badly, there's just no groups out there right now that can deliver Pink Floyd level innovation. I suppose it gets harder to create new shit as time goes on, but these days popular music is manufactured on shows like American Idol. Could you imagine a Dead Kennedy's emerging in this made for TV land devolving culture we live in?
Show me one sentence from Chomsky you think makes him brilliant. I only know him personally and he lied to me.
Did you meet him? Did he lie to you? boo hoo in love with a jerk.
Chomsky is part of government controlled dissent. He nevers bucks the government on anything that would get the masses into the street. He's only radical to the intellectual coffee shop crowd. He and his controllers stay far away from any issue that would break the propaganda trance (great phrase).
That first sentence is so contrary to fact that I didn't even read the rest.
Pink Floyd's album "Animals" is a musical version of "Animal Farm". It tells of Sheep, Pigs, and Dogs (three basic personality types). BTW and it's not talking about animals you find in a barnyard, but ones you meet everywhere you go. It is one of their more obscure albums, and a telling commentary on human nature, as well as Awesome music. Here's the lyrics to "Sheep", courtesy of Roger Waters and the band. I don't know if you're a fan, you may be too young to be very familiar with their music. If that's the case, check it out.
Sheep (Waters) 10:19
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away; Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air. You better watch out, There may be dogs about I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen Things are not what they seem.
What do you get for pretending the danger's not real. Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel. What a surprise! A look of terminal shock in your eyes. Now things are really what they seem. No, this is no bad dream.
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want He makes me down to lie Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by. With bright knives He releaseth my soul. He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places. He converteth me to lamb cutlets, For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger. When cometh the day we lowly ones, Through quiet reflection, and great dedication Master the art of karate, Lo, we shall rise up, And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream. Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead! You better stay home And do as you're told. Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
I'm not familiar with that work, but I will be soon - thanks for the tip! This time "the times, they REALLY are a'changing!" Dylan, of course, who remains to me primarily an enigmatic figure. I prefer Floyd.
I love some of your posts, so please don't take any of this as insulting. You need to educate yourself on the concept of left gatekeepers.
One way to look at it is from the standpoint that we are all herd animals. Fox exists to herd the troglodytes. CNN exists to herd the masses. DemocracyNow, Chomsky etc. are tasked with herding the progressive masses. They are pied pipers tasked with steering dissent in acceptable directions.
nondeguerre, Pink Floyd's album "Animals" is a musical version of "Animal Farm". It tells of Sheep, Pigs, and Dogs (three basic personality types). BTW and it's not talking about animals you find in a barnyard, but ones you meet everywhere you go. It is one of their more obscure albums, and a telling commentary on human nature, as well as Awesome music. Here's the lyrics to "Sheep", courtesy of Roger Waters and the band. I don't know if you're a fan, you may be too young to be very familiar with their music. If that's the case, check it out. Here is a sample.
Sheep (Waters) 10:19
Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away; Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air. You better watch out, There may be dogs about I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen Things are not what they seem.
What do you get for pretending the danger's not real. Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel. What a surprise! A look of terminal shock in your eyes. Now things are really what they seem. No, this is no bad dream.
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want He makes me down to lie Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by. With bright knives He releaseth my soul. He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places. He converteth me to lamb cutlets, For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger. When cometh the day we lowly ones, Through quiet reflection, and great dedication Master the art of karate, Lo, we shall rise up, And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.
Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream. Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream.
Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead! You better stay home And do as you're told. Get out of the road if you want to grow old.
This is a novel way of looking at Chomski! It has never been my impression that he is sold out, but that he is simply too academic in his criticisms to have ever effectively stirred people to action. I'm sorry about the flippancy. There are so many trolls on this site now that I sometimes have difficulty sorting the wheat from the chaff. You may be right, as I don't claim to be an expert on his work by any means. I find him too dryly academic myself to have much patience with his writing. I am concerned however that we should try to focus on the problems at hand rather then infighting - not that I am accusing you of that. It's just that, as Tilouese (sp) pointed out very well, we are running out of time to make tangible affects on the failing world order; a huge task that will require all of our focused energy, including Chomski, and DemocracyNow - both of whom are, I think, very much in our camp regardless of minor distinctions. Division is the enemy. We have plenty of serious antagonists out there without alienating those who are essentially with us. Otherwise we stand the risk of being very much alone. Thanks.
It took a mere letter from a US Senator Joe Liebermann to Amazon.com to kick WikiLeaks off Amazon’s servers. Other large mega corporations such as PayPal, Visa, MasterCard and Bank of America, followed suit and froze payments for WikiLeaks, starving it of a lifeline of money for survival, collectively and effectively strangling it. Imagine if that was your own web site or your business (or if FaceBook did that to your facebook account.)
When the US government froze Libyan accounts, it did not request a court of law to pass a ruling. It merely requested US banks to do so, and the banks happily complied. Imagine if that was your bank account. When the Founding Fathers created the Union and wrote the constitution, they saw government as the great threat to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. They instituted checks and balances on government. They were so fearful, they passed the 2nd Amendment so that the People could forcefully reclaim their rights from an errant Government.
Little, however, did the Founding Fathers foresee the rise of Mega Corporations. The recent Supreme Court Citizen’s United ruling finding much of McCain-Feingold unconstitutional highlights the limited protections the Founding Fathers gave Americans private enterprises. Putting aside the incendiary question of whether what WikiLeaks did is right or wrong, the WikiLeaks strangulation shows that government can use private mega corporations to do what it cannot do through legal means. Like the slaying of Thomas Beckett, government claims deniability. It does not cost government money: politicians did not even have to pay Amazon, PayPal, Visa, MasterCard or Bank of America to do the deed.
Even more so than government, Mega Corporations wage a war that is the selfish interests of their executives. We are all familiar with principal-agent problems, but when the principal is the American public, the problems are magnified. Money votes for corporations, not the American public; and when the government uses mega corporations to do its nasty deeds, it is really an Orwellian twist. The oligopoly of Mega Corporations has become Big Sister, and Big Sister is watching us.
Mega Corporations = Mega CorpoRATS = Mega RATS. A democracy can not allow the development of power centers that overshadow democracy itself.
Too big to fail = too big to exist.
Damned right Brooklyn! We need to take back that flag and own it, and if the state attacks us force them to trample it under. That's exactly what they are doing to us now anyway! Lets let the world watch!
I was working at amazon.com as a laborer when all that went down. While working one shift shortly after Wikileaks was dropped from amazon's server the warehouse system went down. My friend and I were so hopeful that the hacktivists were behind the shutdown -- they weren't. Thank you for this -- required reading for all Americans.
you're welcome, but I actually copied it from somewhere else.
This is a very penetrating comment. I don't know why I overlooked it the first time around. Thanks for this excellent insight!
So....have we established that Government is the corrupting link?
Nope.
The greedy/corrupt are the link.
with the Congress leading by selling us to Big Corp and Banks! It s the government that is THE corrupting link in the process writing the laws and selling them to the highest bidder.
No.
I agree with all of this, but don't see the relevence to my post regarding Jefferson. Thanks anyway, it's right on about the takeover of our government by vested interest.
WikiLeaks harbors treason.
I thought I already replied to this comment, but if I didn't - I must say you hit it on the nail here!
Thank you for that perfect summation, nichole. It seems there is very little more to be said.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ This is what we aren't fighting Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans.
Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.
Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.
It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.
Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.
There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.
One persons truth is another's propaganda, and vice versa. This argument can be used for you as easily as against you.
The truth is the truth. Is there water in the ocean? In your theory when you claim there is no water in the ocean, that would be the truth. That is ridiculous.
I guess that's not the truth because under your theory it would be impossible to be ridiculous. Pure American hypocrisy and nonsense.
America has been destroyed for this exact reason.
If I claimed that and believed it then it would be my truth. I'm glad you used such a ridiculous extreme. It really shows the mindset here. just like so many other absurd suggestions on this sight, conspiracy theories, etc, it shows just how absurd some peoples truths really are. People arguing a point have their "facts" to back it up, even when they are saying the opposite thing. Both think they have the truth, but their own perceived truths are different. Sorry I stated something that you actually were required to have higher brain function to understand.
Nobody owns truth. Saying, "It would be my truth," makes no sense. Most people say that and I take them at their word, they believe it. They believe complete nonsense.
Making ridiculous comments to me insults my intelligence. Either I choose to ignore buffoons, or I might respond to their insult. Our society can choose to be politically correct or we can ridicule screwballs who are destroying our society.
Sitting in the park expecting utopia is crazy. OWS is a crazy protest because the OWS remedy for the crime family government taking bribes in plan view is a worthless protest by lazy, ignorant people expecting utopia. I learned this first hand by making 7 trips to the park and listening to a large number of protesters.
I say there is water in the ocean. That is true. Its not my truth. Its true because God created the ocean by God's decision to put water in what would otherwise be dry holes such as God didn't create any water on other planets. Water is unique to earth as far as we know.
There may or may not be water on other planets, but there is no proof either way.
i believe propaganda is a subjective term. those the don't understand the history and the logic behind an argument simply discard the information as propaganda. when one sees propaganda everywhere, then that says a lot about the person's lack of understanding. that is why it is imperative that those who live in a democracy find truth for themselves, and when you find truth, seek out the critics of said truth. both sides of american discourse believe they are right and dissenters are wrong. it is up to the individual to understand the history and the logic of both arguments, not demonize one and exonerate another.
Bingo. I lived in South Korea for years. True propaganda floated through the air there in balloons, sent by the North. Propaganda there is just the Norths version of the truth, and was nearly the polar opposite of the Souths. It was two view points of a "truth".
Exactly. One mans arguing point is another propaganda. Perception really is everything.
what you said just means you agree with one side more then the other, but if you truly understand a side, you should be able to convince others of its logic in your own words, not threw the use of talking points. for instance when i think of unregulated markets, I think of unregulated social interactions. If my friends and I wanted to go to a public space and throw the biggest ho down of our lives, there would be cops there to regulate us out of the public space, same should go for investment manipulation which is more of a disruption than any ho down. those activities should be policed.
Actually my comment was addressing a typical overreaction by people when hearing opposition and the habit of becoming overly defensive.
bu i do agree with you about regulation and the double standards.
my bad, i guess i miss understood and started to get defensive, but it was nice communicating with you. cheers.
No, one person's truth is not another person's propoganda. That implies truth is equivical, and therefore not truth. Did you go to the university of bullshit, or what?
Look at the post above yours. Ditto.
I did, it doesn't mean anything.
Yep. That's where that last sentence applies.
Talking with you is a Mad Hatter's Tea Party. The Difference - Lewis Carroll had a wit. I won't waste anymore time on it.
See, that's YOUR version of the truth. Mine is much different. To me it's trying to have a conversation with a single minded, and mostly ignorant person. Equally as frustrating I'm sure. Whatever one of us would say about the other would be propaganda, and it could be that NONE of what either of us says is really true, but it all would ring true to some people. Therein lies the conundrum of "truth". The OWSers have been the worst people I've seen to date about the single-mindedness that what they are saying is the only possible truth and they are simply incorrect, but can't admit it.
That's exactly right. Most people haven't heard this definition of Fascism, from the mouth of the creator of Fascism.
And it's what has been happening here. We are suffering under fascist tyranny.
Yes, although it's a less blatently aggressive form, at least so far in the US itself. The rise of organizations like Blackwater are very alarming.
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776.
That man could turn a noble phrase. Thanks
We must once again pick up that flag; that flag trampled into the dust by oligarchy and vested interest, and hold it and what it once stood for high! The founders of our nation clearly spoke for the voice of human liberty. We need not invent a new creed, but simply renew, with a loud and unified voice, the creed of our ancestors.
The Declairation Of Independence is still the greatest political manifesto ever written.
Those who don't believe that must simply look at the history of humnaity held in chains. It was not just Blacks who were enslaved then, but people everywhere. The press gangs of England kidnapped poor Englishmen and forced them into maritime service, at starvation wages. The peasantry of Europe was forced into slavery; many Whites who came to this country did so under a contract of indentured servantry, another word for slavery, although they could work off their "indenture" after seven to twelve years of hard labor, and start again with nothing. That was the difference between Black and White slavery.
America has stood as a great beacon of liberty before, and it can again.
I say long live the inspiration of Jefferson and his movement for freedom. Let it guide us forward! Let us pick up that flag out of the gutter and once again hold it high!
Well said.
We are on the same page DKA, and we will NOT be defeated - no how many liars and naysayers confront us, we will NOT be defeated!
There is a rumbling starting under our feet. It is the awakening of humanity from their chains. It is a global movement for freedom, justice and truth, and it will no longer be silenced. It is our souls crying out for freedom, and it will not be silenced!
Now that is what I am talking about Folks.
Enthusiasm.
Yes the dam is going to burst and the flood will be upon the corrupt.
Deal with it you greedy bastards, OH and your pet trolls too.
We offer equal opportunity reform.
There is a power to truth, the way it keeps reasserting inself throughout history, and in daily life. It is not just evil and corruption that have power. The power of truth is slow to rise, because it takes an awakening of the consciousness, but when it does arise it is like the tide, unstoppable.
Well generally speaking when the truth needs to rise up, it is because the people have been beaten down just a tad bit too far. Then the corrupt are lucky if they only get a severe ass kicking.
LOL!!! Well said! Once the people's awareness has been focused on the right targets - look out baby!!!
All the more reason that they should really be rethinking their asinine insane stance.
I think they are commited. As Shadz said so accurately, it has been a slow coup de' tat. They know the stakes, and we are now engaged.
Yeah their committed alright and they really should be when we regain our government. Too bad the facilities won't be as nice as they could have been for their stay.
Yes, they are committed. They didn't expect people to rise up, but now that we have we are commited too. That is what keeps me coming back to this forum, even though I have so many things pulling me away. We cannot afford to falter, we cannot afford to fail. We simply can't.
I stand with the yong people of the world that want a future. I cannot accept the apocalyptic vision they are thrusting on us. I would rather die.
I know what you mean. The rape of this country and the rest of the world must end. If the corruption does not get stopped the world will end and badly. Best to die cleanly fighting for hope.
Have you ever read Cyrano De Bergerack? (sp) If not, do. It is a contrived sort of play, but the meaning is tremendous, especially his last remark about his white "plume."
You know the truth, and because of that you are free. It is that simple. Material goods cannot set you free. The soul is a bird and must fly, and the wind it flies upon is honor. I know that sounds trite or sentimental, but it is true. The cure for a dark age is the light. That is all.
I can not disagree with those sentiments. If you have nothing to live for then what is the point? If what you live for is yourself then again what is the point? Love and honor have meaning and they provide a good reason for living as well as a good guide for living..
Without them, life simply isn't worth living, in my opinion. If we sacrifice those things for security than we have neither love, honor, nor security. It is a canard, a fool's choice.
You would make Jefferson proud !
Thank you for that. We are Americans, we have a great tradition. Let us have the courage to lift up that tradition again. We can and will yet again spark a Rennaisance of freedom and descency. All we need is to have the courage to hold that flag high, and to never let it fall, never let it be tranpled by greed and cynicism!
I like Thomas Paine myself. He didn't own any slaves. Fore me, it comes down to character and principle.
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
Free people shouldn't act or live like slaves...
Tom Pain would be great with me - perhaps more divissive with others - but I'll carry Tom Paine's flag any day! Personally, I agree with you - Tom Paine was the chinks!
Someone who owned nearly 200 slaves is not a great pin-up for a movement seeking a change a system that is precariously slopped towards a few people.
I would suggest that rather than championing a dead President, or flaccid ideologues like Michael Moore or anyone else, people should place more emphasis on themselves and their own ability to come to the best conclusions for themselves.
I agree about the slave issue, but Jefferson inherited slaves (was not in a position to free them). When he was in a position to do so, he did. Furthermore, his "wife" whom he couldn't actually marry due to it being illegal at the time was a former slave. He was with her openly, something almost unhead of in those days. If we're looking for someone who's life was unipeachable on every level, I'm afraid we won't find anyone. You're right about thinking for youself - that is essential. But there are a lot of people out their that would like to paint this movement, as a buch of commies, or dirty hippis, or whatever, and Jefferson would be a very good choice, I think, to silence those critics,and rally people to our cause. Besides, I happen to admire him greatly. For his time he was about as far sighted as anyone alive. Thanks for the post. Martin Luther King would, I think, also make a great rallying figure.
I am new here, just wanted to say Gypsy, I like the cut of your jib. Good stuff!
thanks
I did wonder if there might be more to the story, so thanks for filling me/us in.
I am certainly familiar with his various quotes, and they certainly were not only ahead of his time, but unfortunately ours.
If we had adheared to that vision we wouldn't be in this disasterous mess.
Thanks David. I got a few things about Jefferson wrong because I was working from memory. He didn't free all of his slaves, but he married one (to the extent that that was possible considering it was illegal then), lived with her for twenty-three-years and they had a family. He worked tirelessly to have slavery abolished under the constitution, and drew enough people to the cause that he was to some great measure responsible for the Civil War. Sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Let's hope OWS has a fate more in line with it's values. Cheers!
"Flaccid idologues like Micheal Moore." He is perhaps the most courageous man of his generation. Imagine just some working class guy from Flint taking on the whole power structure and actually scoring a few impressive victories! My God, we hold the achievements of others in low regard!
Moore is a hypocrite. He trumps up socialism and believes he has all the answers for how the world should be. Yet he lives the life of a wasteful American consumer, living the high-life in an expensive home, sending his children to private school and so on.
You will have to fill me in, I am not familiar with his achievements, beyond the money he has made from his documented, lopsided documentaries. I would suggest a better example would be Nader. Someone who has a string of achievements and hasn't used them to propel himself to the height of opulence.
I think in a way you have a point, maybe. I don't think he is brilliantly educated, but he came from a working class background - his uncle was pivital in the union movement in Detroit during violent clashes with the police; Michael almost singlehandedly ran a paper called The Michigan Voice, spreading truth about what was going on with the corruption and moral failure of this country on a shoestring, when nobody was listening in the 80s, making almost no money himself at all.
When the auto-companies "outsourced" (God what an Orwellian term) their plants to Mexico, leaving Flint practically a ghost town execpt for crimimal activities, he took his savings, got a camcorder, made "Roger and Me," and really in many ways started this movement. If you haven't seen "Roger and Me, you'd love it! It's hysterically funny and a tragic expose' of the heartless visciousness of the ruling class. I forgot you were from Britain - perfectly understandable not being aware of his background and contribution.
He was just a poor, often unemployed guy, a "nobody," and that is why his accomplishment is all the more heroic in my eyes. He didn't stop there either, but took on the Bushes with farenheight 911, etc. Practically nobody had the guts to take on the Bushes. They saw every critisism as a personal vendetta - witness Valery Plame. It is also clear to me that he was tempermentally unsuited to such a task, being a retireing, mild mannered sort of guy, who would I'm sure have been much happier just fishing with a cold beer. How can you not admire that courage. And his documentaries are, in my opinion, first rate:)
Fair enough.
I did see Bowling for Columbine, which I thought was poor, but I plan on watching his capitalism film, though I don't think I will be swallowing his position.
Nader got the ball moving back in the 60s when he took on GeneralMotors, who tried to destroy him by sending beautiful woman after him, it didn't work. He got a large sum of money out of them in court and used that to start the financing of his consumer protection career, which has countless victories such as getting ingredients listed on food products, seatbelts in cars etc. That I am aware of Moore doesn't have any victories like this and it is a shame Moore is better known these days.
Nader is also popular with the "real right" as well as the "real left", while Moore is despised by the "real right" and increasingly shunned by the "real left" who see his books such as "Stupid White Men", where he says he will only employ black people from then on - a department he has failed in miserably - as childish pandering.
I agree, he's uneven - Bowling for Columbine was his low water mark. Watch Roger and me, it's his most personal, deeply felt, and accomplished film. Cheers:)
OK, plenty of places it can be watched on-line :)
Oh, and by the way, I really concur about Nader! He's been great, but I was really angered at him for awhile over the defeat of Al Gore. I'm one of those few who felt that Gore is a fine man, and his defeat was a national tragedy. Of course he did actually win despite Nader's campaign - even though he lost! It is that kind of sabotage of the democratic process by undue influence that we here are, finally, determined to stamp out. The Bush Administration was the worst thing to happen to this nation since the Civil War. I don't blame Nader, and I am over my resentment, but God the result of all that was mccabre! We must not inadvertantly allow ourselves to fall into the same mistake again! Great to talk to you.
This movement would never survive if we turn our backs on this genius! He's one of the giants who's voice always speaks to us from the past.
SO, in my thinking, if he's not inspiring this movement then we wouldn't be:
We the People -or- Equal
This is one of Thomas Jefferson's biggest contributions to us. And this one is FOREVER, we never scrap it, we don't revise, reform it, or any way ever change it.
Equality is not something that a government can grant or deny a body of citizens; for this right is unalienable.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." - - The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
David64 what were you thinking when you wrote your post? You just want to scrap the past and be the condemned who will now have to repeat it.
Those who forget the past are CONDEMNED to repeat it!
Also, are you Perfect?
You have mis-read my comment and have assumed positions for myself that I don't hold. If you want to hold Jefferson up, you can. I am not going to. My life is not a collection of other people's utterances. I have my own constitution and abide rigorously by it. I don't feel lifting up people like Jefferson and Moore (as some OWSers are) helps the situation the world is in.
Re. being perfect. I am not sure why you asked this as I didn't suggest I was, nor did my comment elude to that - I made a suggestion that you could take how you want. If anything your comments are more presumptuous. Anyway, the perception of perfection is subjective. The intention of my post was to suggest people be subjective, rather than just adopting other's positions.
So, what your to missing from your posts is just how do you arrive at your own conclusions. I know you don't just sit there re-inventing the wheel and dreaming these things. I would hope that you have read some history and can appreciate what it teaches us.
I am standing on the shoulders of giants so I don't have to repeat the past but rather move into the future.
Dreaming - that is one way you could describe how I come up with things. I just think and arrive at conclusions. These are largely based around myself as I have more and more come to the realisation that trying to change the world (that everyone else lives) is not only the wrong approach, but presumptuous and all the rest of it.
I know some of what happened in the past and certainly it seems that some of it is coming around again.
Your are very interesting in how you do all this solely on your own.
What are the thoughts you have that allow you derive your perfect conclusions?
And I guess in this view we can't learn from each other?
I didn't say my conclusions were perfect, but my aim is to come to the correct conclusion in factual matters. Many people like to get into bubbles like liberalism or conservatism and will spout the sometimes factually incorrect lines of their figurerheards - O'Reilly, Olberman et. al. Such people will quite happily go through life believing something that can be proved wrong, but are unable to confront because of their belief system.
Then you have the matter of how things should be in the world. I don't have too much to say in this department as it is one where you can never be right and there is no reason I or anyone else should have the best answer of how things should be in the world. I can however see when things are rigged and so on and think it is important for them to be confronted.
Then you have the realm of things that may be true or not, but can't be proven, e.g. "spiritual matters", past events, things beyond the current scope of our abilities etc. This latter is my favourite realm for thought and discussion. I am particularly interested in breaking concepts and humans behaviour down to their most basic facets, drives etc. from which perspective the world looks very different.
I have learnt from some people, I just don't revere them for it. Nor have I ever indulged in role models or idols. As a young child I completed a questionnaire asking for my role models. I didn't understand why people would have any and so put myself. My thought being that no one can influence yourself to be you better than yourself. I feel that people's reliance on other people in what they think, adopting their ideas and all round acquiescence to other's will is a major part of all problems relating to human interaction with each other and our environments. I find that the machinery which we find ourselves surrounded by is geared towards what others think being of more value than what you yourself think. I found that school, from the earliest age thoroughly suppressed exploration and encouraged mental dependence. It is for this reason that it should be no surprise that many of the brightest minds, such as Albert Einstein, were berated in the schools they eventually dropped out of.
I think I now understand a little better what your saying. I really think this more or less is about balance. Sure, you have to decide for yourself and find your own truth. But, you can't downplay that we really are essentially products of our environment. So much so, that your upbringing can not be ignored in understanding who you are. Your parents affected you in a huge way and you can't escape it, you must deal with it, good or bad.
Anyway, I think I understand more, you internalize more and it seems you have healthy skeptism which is always good no matter what others say. Frankly the truth is always relative and at any point you can never be 100% positive of anything people say or propose. The one truth which is not in dispute is 1 + 1 = 2. Mathematics is a pure science in that it completely and utterly knowable. Politics deals in huge gray area and thereby is easily deceiving.
Good for you. Keep learning, the truth can be found, and it is knowable.
It's just relative.
With all due respect for the profundity of the moment I humbly ask, What about a few modifications to the paragraph,such as replacing "men" with "humans" or replacing "Creator" with "moms & dads" or nothing at all and adding just a few minor things like "well-being" "education", and "clean environment" to the unalienable rights?
I don't see a problem with it. The framework is there and the interpretation is pretty clear. I think the words you suggest are completely valid. The bill of rights, necessarily added later, details these rights much more clearly.
I think for me the part that charges me up is: Unalienable, that word packs one hell of a punch. We are born with these rights and no person shall ever take them away. Personally these are rights I will always be willing to die for.
Good post julianzs
Everybody get a flag, and hold it high in celebration of our founding principles. It's not only the right thing to do, it's the best protection against the cops.
Found this in the archives and thought it's a great thing to re-post at the moment.
Our common heritage is calling out to us, the voices on the million Americans who died in WWII and the Civel War are calling out to us -those who have stood up to tyranny everwhere are calling out to us!
Let us renew the dream. Let us be the force for world liberation, just as our creed has always made us to be the force of liberation!
Come on people, let's relive the glory of the struggle for good! It is our American destiny. Let's turn to it once again, face the forces of the enemy within as well as without, and lead the world to freedom! We have the power. We ARE the power.
This movement would never survive if we turn our backs on this genius! He's one of the giants who's voice always speaks to us from the past. He should always be in our hearts.
If he isn't inspiring this movement then WE wouldn't be:
We the People -or- Equal
This is one of Thomas Jefferson's biggest contributions to us FOREVER, we never scrap it, we don't revise, reform it, or in any way ever change it. It stands as a self evident truth. Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
THOMAS JEFFERSON - - The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
What can I say? Has there ever been a greater statement of truth, or of the rights of man?
No, because he stood at a crossroads. Freedom has power because Jefferson defined it for all time. Unless happiness becomes sadness.
Good post GyspyKing, this one needs to have life again. This cycle needs riding and we should forget these giants!
The Puzzler
Thank you. As I have said before, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel. Thomas Jefferson had a vision we can adhere to. The problem has been apathy. Plato said, 'The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men."
We must take back our democracy from the evil men who were allowed into power through our apathy.
Where the heck is the ACLU and Occupy's lawyers, that they haven't already filed international appeals and been granted court injunctions against this vilolent oppression of our Constitutional Liberties? Can anyone update me on this?
Can we keep a little bit of James Madison ? ;o)
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. July 4, 1776.
Could there possibly be a more trenchant, or more eloquent statement of our cause than this?
I think it can not get better than this. But I'll try. Difficult to beat those guys who wrote it. Thanks anyway!
Oh, that wasn't a challange, it was to simply to applaud you for posting this! I doubt anyone could ever spell it out more clearly than it was spelled out here! Thanks!
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
You got it! Prophetic! That is the essense of the great anti-governmet de-regulation lie. I wish people could see that government, if unhindered, in a democracy, is an instrument of the people. It is the government corrupted by private-interest, the mega-banks perhaps formost among them that is the enemy of justice and prosperity.
Dogs Serve Pigs To No End. Most highly paid lackeys that vote for the party of Lincoln fall within this group. This song is about them
"Dogs" by Pink Floyd, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HxHwuiDPgk
Dogs (Waters, Gilmour) 17:06
You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need. You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street, You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed. And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight, You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking.
And after a while, you can work on points for style. Like the club tie, and the firm handshake, A certain look in the eye and an easy smile. You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to, So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in.
You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder. You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older. And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south, Hide your head in the sand, Just another sad old man, All alone and dying of cancer.
And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown. And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone. And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around. So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone, Dragged down by the stone.
I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused. Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used. Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise. If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze?
Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend. And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner And everything's done under the sun, And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer.
Who was born in a house full of pain. Who was trained not to spit in the fan. Who was told what to do by the man. Who was broken by trained personnel. Who was fitted with collar and chain. Who was given a pat on the back. Who was breaking away from the pack. Who was only a stranger at home. Who was ground down in the end. Who was found dead on the phone. Who was dragged down by the stone.
"Dogs" by Pink Floyd,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HxHwuiDPgk
here here! I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed) 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
He saw the issue like a hawk 235 years ago. Thanks for the great post!! I'm so glad the people good with computers can dig up facts so quickly. I denies the liers time to distort and manipulate the truth. It makes me giddy!
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
-Thomas Jefferson
Great! Lets amend the Constitution so that he will be FOREVER bound by that document from visciously praying upon his fellow man, and on the earth itself!
And I am not reffering to honest business practice, or the persuit of wealth within reasonable bounds here. One of the trolls favorite ploys here is equating business criminality with honest business, and I'm having no more of that distortion! Just try it guys. I'll pick you apart like a lint pile!
Here's a link to another that is inspired by the idea of this thread:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/univeral-declaration-of-human-rights/
Hmmm... I'd be careful with that...
-"The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits."
-"Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%."
-"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society."
Doesn't sound like your kind of guy...
The flag, the flag, the flag - now more than ever. Get them somehow, and let the world see our authorities trample them while trying to stamp out our freedoms.
Jefferson made one of his slaves his girlfriend. Her name was Sally. I often wonder what she thought of that.
They were together for 23 years openly and he took her with him to Europe. From all the testements I have read, they were in love. I don't know - I wasn't there.
He is the embodiment of our best aspirations concerning individual freedom and liberty...
No he wasn't a perfect man, because there is no perfect man.
If we wati for someone perfect to rally around idealogically, we will wait forever. I am particularly struck by how not only his philosophy is in line with what we want to achieve, but that there is simply no way for our opponents to smear him (and by extention us) with all the misleading lies they have used in the past to discredit progressive movements. Thanks:)
Jefferson would be an excellent choice. The right wing conservatives that pretend to love the country, the Constitution and the Founding Fathers have stolen him from his rightful place. On the Left.
Why don't we use his words?
Why not, and when asked, tell people we are Jeffersonians and want to restore true democracy. We could carry a number of flags at every occupy site and demonstration too. Our democracy is now without question reduced to a compete travisty.
This movement would never survive if we turn our backs on this genius! He's one of the giants who's voice always speaks to us from the past.
SO, in my thinking, if he's not inspiring this movement then we wouldn't be:
We the People -or- Equal
This is one of Thomas Jefferson's biggest contributions to us. And this one is FOREVER, we never scrap it, we don't revise, reform it, or any way ever change it.
Equality is not something that a government can grant or deny a body of citizens; for this right is unalienable.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Clearly the current path -- driven by capitalists in private sector and capitalist toadies in elected positions -- is not working, and is not sustainable.
Just like parents tell their kids: We all need a time-out.
We need to take stock of where we are, how we got here.
And then identify the basics. Getting back to basics is essential. The rest of this is crap.
Bailing out banks and corporations clearly did little to fix fundamental problems.
It probably reinforced the bad behavior of Wall Street crooks. Nothing more.
Get back to basics. What does our world need to prevent falling off a cliff in a few decades?
We are consuming natural resources that will eventually be depleted.
We are a planet with a skyrocketing population -- now over 7 billion. Which means there are fewer resources per person, but it also means more customers to the capitalist machine -- more customers for for-profit prisons, more customers for goods, services, and such.
We can't continue. Billion dollar bonus packages to spoiled Wall Street suits who aren't building a frigging thing, except a deeper financial hole that we have to dig out of.
None of this is sustainable.
Time out!
You are so right! Unfortunately, calling "Time Out" won't in and of itself solve the problem. What we are disgussing is a way to unify people to our cause so that when we say "Time Out" the powers that be will be compelled to get out of the way and allow that change:)
You're right, the question is, how do we regain the power to make changes. I think reestablishing the power in the people who see the need for change, rather than corporations and the super-rich, is the most probable method of creating the swift change that is, as you say, so desperately needed. We need a rallying call to arms (figuratively) and I think Jefferson would ralley people from every region of this nation. Then we need to act - see the suggestion of everyone burning their credit cards for a start. That's a shift in power.
I like the shifting cash from banks (that no longer adhere to the principles of the Glass-Steagall Act) to credit unions. That should get their attention.
Yes, and I really think we should have a national credit card burning day, or maybe blow them up with firecrackers on the 4'th. Twould also certainly get their attention. If even 20% of Americans participated it would have a huge impact.
Grow-up. What isn't working is the huge amount of socialism in this country as well as the extreme greed from lazy assholes like you. You imagine that you really know better than everyone else who isn't part of the stupid OWS movement. You are a complete fool if you think anything that the OWS has proposed would work in real life.
Well, we do still have the problem of narrcisistic sociopaths to deal with. I think that should be part of our agenda. What is your opinion, being an expert on that subject?
Find the nearest mental institution for intellectual imbeciles such as yourself, GypseyLoser, and stay there for a long, long time.
Grow-up. What isn't working is the huge amount of socialism in this country as well as the extreme greed from lazy assholes like you. You imagine that you really know better than everyone else who isn't part of the stupid OWS movement. You are a complete fool if you think anything that the OWS has proposed would work in real life.
We'd still be in Viet Nam if it were not for the citizens who spoke up and said "Enough!"
Hmmmm... sounds like you are more a part of the problem than part of the solution.
Hmmm, if you're so smart, maybe you could be more specific. Please enlighten us. What issues do you think are off-base? What is it that you think won't work? Pleeeez Pleeeez inform and enlighten us with your wisdom.
I had other posts here, wonder what happened?
The premise of the Declaration and the Constitution is that men are rational beings who cannot be ruled without giving consent. Thomas Jefferson eloquently explained human equality by noting that “the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately.” In other words, men are not animals and should not be treated like animals.
As for the text of the 13th amendment—“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction”—the framers did not define slavery because it was universally understood to mean a person holding another human as chattel.
In fact, the language of the amendment was based on the prohibition of slavery in the Northwest Ordinance of 1787, which read: “There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the said territory.” By drawing on the language of the Northwest Ordinance—one of the first laws passed by the first Congress—the 13th amendment affirms the self-evident truth that all men are created equal.
Jefferson, among others, were strong enough in their opposition to slavery that the nation was eventually driven to Civil War, a human cataclism, that resulted in abolition. Our history is our own, we must look at it with a cold, discerning eye; yet there is a great deal about it worthy of embracing - and to do otherwise is simply to cede that ground to the false-patriots who really care nothing about it, other than to wrap themselves in the flag as a pure tool of ultra-cynical propoganda.
TJ knew slavery was wrong from the start. He also knew that it would have to be dealt with by a future generation. He truly was a man of the Age of Reason (as Thomas Pane called it) or more commonly known as the enlightenment.
He did free some his slaves upon his death unlike Washington who freed all of his.
So, just to get it straight, slavery was heavily steeped into our culture during the founding of this country. So, for those who want to characterize it any other way are ignoring the true history of how it went down.
Jefferson Davis on the other hand, the leader of the Confederacy, not only condoned it but encouraged it. The south during that time was getting filthy rich on the backs of these slaves. Their motive was clear----MONEY.
It was the main reason they initiated the civil war. Most here know how that went. The south destroyed itself over this greed.
Agreed completely. No one man or woman can singlehandedly reverse the evils of their age. Modern Americans benefit from a lot of slave labor in third world countries. All any of us can do is to do our best to end such practices, as well as exploitation of labor and the environment at home. I don't think it is possible to say anyone wearing a shirt made in Guatamala, or Thailand, is automatically too tainted for their views to be taken seriously. Our nation has been responsible for more enforcement of dictatorship and of slave labor than most of us would like to even make ourselves aware of. That does not mean we should not work to redeem ourselves. That was the legacy of Jefferson; the effort to transform an unjust society into a just society. That must be our legacy as well. Their is no higher honor.
Your comment is exactly correct. For anyone who believes slavery is over for good hasn't looked very far. It still is alive and well, Essentially it's fueled by our desire to have more, which in this age, that means money. It really explains why we love our fellow Americans but we just love the money more. We sell them out in a heart beat for money. Cheap labor equates to slave labor.
Of course there it is, TJ knew this 200 years ago. If read the history and check it out for ourselves it won't hide from us. It's easy to see it once you know it's there. In the modern age we just don't talk much about it and basically we pretend it doesn't happen. It's hard enough just to get Americans back to work for a living wage. Why? **
........................Follow the money. ...................then you too may be enlightened.....
It's great to hear someone who has taken the blinders off! Only in the unflinching persuit of truth can we attain freedom.
And that is why it can be so elusive. I really and truly believe this movement at it's core has to be about AWARENESS of the TRUTH.
You and I both know it's not that easy and finding the truth can involve a great effort. The only ones who really will do it are highly motivated. That's where it starts------> we have be motivated.
Personally, finding truth in this life is one of my highest goals in this life. I was born for it and growing up during that insane Vietnam War woke me up. Once I was awakened I could trust the truth only if it was checked every way possible.
Great thread my friend, you hit the bulls-eye. We need to stand on the shoulders of giants if we have any chance to make the change we want.
..........................................Good Luck!!!
Good luck to you and thanks for the very enlightening talk.
My pleasure.
Thomas Jefferson was right!
This should be our slogan.
Damn right! Aside from the greatness of his accomplishments and his legacy in the amazing endurance of the American idea, he is, symbolically, a profoundly uniting figure. The legacy of Jefferson allows us to hold our flag high, in spite of the terrible way this country has turned its back on those ideas in the last 65 years. I say grab that flag and hold onto it to the death!
Thomas Jefferson was right!
When was the last time you've truly read the Declaration of Independence?
Replace Great Britain with the Elite, members of the government, and some private organizations, and we are in a very similar situation.
The Government must be made once again into our government. It is after all the government Jefferson helped to create. If by "some private organizations" you mean corporations, they are the problem, in the sense that they have systmatically attacked the rule of the people expressed through government. All the anti-government propoganda we have been fed in the last 30 years is a consious attempt to destroy government by the people, of the people, and for the people. Make no mistake; concentrated wealth is the problem, just as it was for Jefferson.
yeah but I'm trying to use terms more appeasing to the opposition. Private organizations sounds worse than corporations and essentially means the same thing. I'm using their tactics to help them see what's happening.
Don't say Job Creators. Say that some are private organization money hoarders with tendencies of oppression and abuse of levels of poverty and desperation to take advantage of workers, as well as in some cases to outsource overseas to utilize sweat shop labor in poverty stricken areas.
Yeah, I see your point. Thanks.
I'd vote for Thomas Jefferson
Yeah, not only did his ideas allign with the goals of OWS, his patriotism is beyond dispute. Thanks
Thomas Jefferson not only owned slaves, he believed that peoples of African American descent were genetically inferior, incapable of love. If you read excerpts from his Notes on the State of Virginia, written in 1787, he writes "[it] is the preference of the Oran-ootan of the black woman over those of his own species." Clearly he believed that African Americans engaged in bestiality. He did not marry Sally Hemings, the slave with whom he had many children, and only freed those slaves that were his own mixed-race children after his death. He started his affair with her when she was around 15, and their children served as house slaves in Monticello, fully unacknowledged by Jefferson. So, as far as economics goes, Jefferson may be a perfect source of inspiration. But I beg you not to have a blatantly racist, violent man become a figurehead of this cause. Of course all movement leaders are full of contradictions and troublesome pasts, but Jefferson did not even recognize the humanity of African Americans, and as this movement seeks to unite all those disenfranchised people who desire change, I think he is the last person to look to.
tl:dr version; guy was crazy racist. No good, do not pass go, find someone else.
I would like to address this issue further. You have some valid points, but I cannot accept the notion that he was racist, or violent. On what do you base that? He was the formost champion of abolition in his day, and the implication that he raped Salley Hemings, or violently abused slaves (if that is what you are implying by violent) has no historical basis that I am aware of. If those were his attitudes it would make no sense that he would have worked for the abolishment of slavery. He also freed many of his slaves, and was by the standards of the time very progressive on that entire issue. As I have pointed out elsewhere, we all own clothing produced by slaves and the fact that we are not in close proxemity to those slaves does not absolve us of complicity. It may even make it worse, because we are not on hand to allieviate suffering if we should so chose . It seems to me that you make every negative point regarding the man, and then say that "economically" we should admire him. That suggests to me that you haven't devoted sufficient study to his life to make a really informed judgement. Could it be that you simply don't want any part of a white man's legacy? If so, I could understand that, but please lets look at people with at least some attempt at a balanced perspective. Finally there are very complelling practical reasons for turning to one of the founders of America's democratic legacy, in terms of its unifying power, and Jefferson was the pivitol figure in insuring that legacy, and protecting it from the inrodes of amassed wealth and privilage.
You must be joking, TJ would never have supported OWS...NEVER!
Why would TJ support a movement bent on abolishing the 'Constitutional Republic?
As far as I'm concerned this movement does not advocate that. It advocates permaently removing money from politics, and the reform/abolishment of the corporate charter, along with fundamental ethical reforms bringing it back in line with the enlightenment, the inspiration for Jefferson and others of our founders.
Really, do you see 'Marxism' as a path to 'enlightenment'?
Just more black and white, unimaginative thinking, on the part of those so cynical that they can't comprehend new avenues to human advancement, and probably aren't even interested in advancing the human race. Of all those who post here, I find these types the most pitiful.
We are not members of the 'United Federation of Planets', and you don't wear a 'Star Fleet' uniform, do you? Nope, for better or worse I live in the real world on Earth and in this real world most 'things' are black and white, and very little gray where black and white meet on the 'truth' spectrum.
Never pity one so ahead of the curve like myself, just admire one's boldness to go where no one has gone before....
Next I'll be hearing from the Klingons.
You might be, they are known to hang around 'Uranus' but you may have to get your head out of the way to hear and see them.
Isn't he one of the fondling fathers?
Quite rude aren't you?
I agree Thomas Jefferson had many beliefs similar to Ows. I would like your comment on http://occupywallst.org/forum/republicanism-and-the-constitutional-republic/
Didn't Jefferson keep slaves, tho?
I think Thom Paine would be flippin happy about this movement. I think he would have started it.
Tom Paine was GREAT. But I think Jefferson had more influence on the actual framing of the constitution; still a really radical document in support of the liberty of the common man, and is unassailable in his patriotism. By the way, he freed atleast some of his slaves and even married one.
And you've done the history of Thomas Paine?
What do you mean "done the history." I have read a lot of Paine. He was a very courageous and intelligent man, whom I have the highest respect for. I still think Jefferson is a more uniting figure to rally around. His views and his great historical profile are powerful symbols of the kind of nation the founders intended to create, and the kind of nation we want to restore. Thanks for the comment, I love Thomas Paine.
I mean done the history of... when we go in search of the focus is narrow. To expand our vision of the past we must repeatedly ask ourselves, is this a true and accurate vision? And then we delve again. Thomas Paine was highly influential as a writer in terms of garnishing support for the cause of rebellion but beyond that... well... he's not a Jefferson.
Yes, Paine was brilliant, but not as high profile, and even more radical than Jefferson. I think Paine's vision might be threatening to a lot of people, whereas Jeffersons was tempered by an extremly rational facility behind a passionate agenda for the improvement of mankind:)
I love history... The Paine popularity was to eventually wain.
Perhaps his flaw was his justified anger. As a philosopher, or visionary, even justified anger, when commited to a person's published thought tends to diminish their credibility. Just a thought:)
Nah, it was more than that.
What more?
Jefferson wanted an agrarian society where political power could not be amassed without owning and farming land, which was then a great equalizer of wealth. Of course then we didn't have the benefit of a financial industry, providing the service of absorbing the capital from the rest of the population in the form of debt. Thank Hamilton and the central banks for that. Don't talk about redistributing that wealth though. That would be class warfare.
After reading your comment more carefully, I think I agree with most of it. Yet it's written in a way that is so nuanced as to promote ambigity. Please try to present arguments in a more direct form. Clarity is the essence of good writing, faciliting communication - the purpose of writing. Please read George Orwell on this subject. There are many forces that promote ambiguity in written discource, and they all serve the purpose of deception. So, although I think I agree with you, given the manner in which you wrote this comment, I cannot be certain. Your advocation of the power of central banks, however, is completely off base and contrary to prevailing thought here.
I think these observations are of limited relevency to the question at hand. Hamilton helped write the corporate charter, the biggest mistake of an otherwise admirable carrer. The agrarian issue has simply been altered by time and technology.
Have you read Jefferson's will then to determine who he owed?
Man, I get tired of this point! He owed primarily because he freed his slaves, and you try to use that noble and self-sacrificing conviction to somehow discredit him! Shameful!
The question of of a Jefferson as hypocrite is very complicated. On the cerebral level he was obviously opposed to it. On a pragmatic level, abject slavery did not exist because virtually all of the slaves at Monticello were white. Many of the visitors to Monticello commented on this and their words have been preserved.
True, it is a complicated issue - I think if we are looking for an inspiration free of any blemish we will not even be inspired by ourselves.
On the level of critical thought, Jefferson was one of the greatest philosophical minds of all time; he was fully possessed of all the tools of a pure philosophy. And believe me, there are tools; one is either possessed of them or one is not.
But man cannot live on the cerebral alone... (unfortunately).
What I was studying was the development of a cultural mindset that is hundreds and hundreds of years old. Jefferson occupies a place as a voice in the national discussion of this particular era. How he and others arrived and where they are are going, and why... that is the question. (And no, it is not the result of "Enlightenment" philosophy. This is a definite fallacy.)
Since the question of Jefferson as hypocrite is the weapon of today's antagonist; it is vital that we address it, at least on a personal level. I had to ultimately conclude that Jefferson was indeed a hypocrite on more than one level. And this is but one the many reasons, I defer to Washington as supreme.
But... Jefferson's hypocrisy, I believe, is ameliorated by a true love and respect of Sally Hemings. And that, too, is something that has never been welcome in the national discussion.
Interestin points. I think that almost all people are subject to one form of hypocrisy or another engendered by the state of their times. I mentioned before that American clothing is largely produced by slave labor, and yet the factual nature of our existance would make it very difficult to produce our own clothing. I don't agree that Jefferson was not a product of the enlightenment, and I wonder what could lead you to that conclusion. The events and thought surrounding the first American revolution are very complicated and worthy of much study, but I stand behind my vision of Jefferson as a uniting figure. It was his thinking that has been behind the remarkable endurance of this nation. I don't purpose a revolution to overthrow those ideas, but to restore them.
I'm with you 100%. It's just that I believe European "Enlightenment" philosophy as a theory is a very shallow and entirely false interpretation of the then existing mindset. Or to restate that, it was a little consequence or influence.
Again I point to John Adams. Adams owned thousands of acres of land that was farmed, as did Jefferson. To say the only reason that Jefferson owed 100k while Adams had 100k at the time of their deaths, both on the same day, just does not make sense. Again, Jefferson loved to spend money and loved Monticello about as much as he loved any human. He also loved to acquire things, Adams was much more pragmatic in financial dealings. Both collected books, a shared love and interest. When the original library of congress burned, Jefferson was in need of money so he sold his collection to the library. Jefferson was so indebted that he received authorization from the state to have a lottery to raise funds (something that was done quite often during that time) It did not do well, but out of respect for the man he was allowed to stay at his beloved Monticello until he died. I am not trying to belittle Jefferson's importance in our history, nor deny his rightful place in our history, but it is disingenuos to say that his financial downfall was due to freeing slaves.
Adams established the corporate charter, n'uf said. I beg your pardon. That was Hamilton. I'm getting tired and better log off
I think Jefferson's agrarian ideas are well documented and can be debated. However this is only a fraction of an intellect that transcended self and gave all mankind a bigger picture of the world. That self governance is the natural state of humans. Perhaps that has a collateral with agrarian philosophy.
You must realize that this somewhat romantic vision of an "agrarian philosophy" was popular even then right?
Thomas Jefferson - “I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”
John Adams - “Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or will ever do good.”
James Madison - “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.”
That's right - to justify our cause we need turn no further than the founders; Jefferson being, I think, the most alligned with the cause of OWS.
Maybe with the decentralizing, "states rights" people in OWS, but Jeffersonian ideas of democracy are not what everyone feels most aligns with OWS.
Oh, how so?
A lot of the Founding Fathers believed the same thing and so do/did most of the intellectuals of our time.
Albert Einstein "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure.”
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
I give full credit to GypsyKing. ESPECIALLY THOMAS JEFFERSON IS GREAT STARTING POINT. That can definitely unify all of us.
Thomas Jefferson: "I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our Constitution... Taking from the federal government the power of borrowing."
Thomas Jefferson: "This issuing power (of money) should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
Thomas Jefferson: "A government big enough to give you everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have ..."
Abraham Lincoln: "I have two great enemies, the Southern army in front of me and the bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one on my rear is my greatest foe." He stopped bankers' debt-money plans and instituted debt-free money system, but got assassinated shortly after.
I have two posts on this subject and it's my highest priority item:
[1] http://occupywallst.org/forum/to-all-ows-supporters-worldwide-one-unified-demand
[2] http://occupywallst.org/forum/government-of-the-world-you-know-it-we-know-it-sto/
Now tell me exactly, each of these quotes: what exactly were they referring to, what was the impetus?
What is the subject of this thread again?
haha...
http://www.nycga.net/groups/political-and-electoral-reform/docs/amendment-28-to-the-constitution-of-the-united-states-of-america
You need to actually take a look at current law. All of these protections already exist. Also, you need to correct the punctuation errors.
When you post the links to the irrelevant laws I will look.
I didn't write your piece... do your own research.
Post evidence when you make a claim.
haha.. it wasn't me that made the claim; it was you... also review your punctuation.
You wrote "You need to actually take a look at current law. All of these protections already exist"
Links.... I would even accept even naming the laws, but you didn't even do that.
Citizens United v the FEC is a great place to see where we have no protections but you can start clear back in 1886 with Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 U.S. 394 (1886). Do I need to find more?
Where are the "protections" you claim we have?
Now you claim to know what I have read. Try reading both decisions and get back to me. The first never speaks to the Corporation's right to free speech, instead the Court skirt the issue, the second the court never dealt with the 14th amendment and instead ruled on the merits of the claim.
Your turn. Where is the evidence support even one of your claims?
Buddy, you've never even read that decision. So who do you think you're fooling?
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Im sorry, what is this post in relation to?
Freedom of speech somehow gives some the impression they can throw all their civil manners away.. this reflects badly on the nation. the world is watching
Ah, I will try to tone down whatever anger sometimes arrises in me from the incessant pestering of the trolls, who have become better at pulling us in and discipating our efforts. It can sometimes push me to the brink. That is, I imagine, their aim. It's like dealing with a classroom of juvenile delinquents. But point well taken.
It was mostly the trolls I was referring to .. with their grotesque verbiage it's a wonder how they ever became the "elite" ?
I think most of them are just hired on prison release or something.
Exactly! Thomas Jefferson undoubtly was referring to Article 5 when he spoke of "a revolution every 20 years" and with article V it is a legal rebellion.---------
Occupy needs to realize that if things are as bad as they are, they must abandon all those trumped things and focus on invoking the law of the land NOW!
Using Jefferson as official inspiration might be too much for the socialist bent Occupier who appears very sensitive to image association. I would suggest Russell Means, he states very properly in a recent video, referring to modern Americans, "you have a near perfect document, all you need to do is enforce it".-----
It is an issue of legal procedure and massive confusion created by infiltrators taking official position for the last 40 years, and the needed confrontations. Hopefully Occupy can realize what is happening with the lack of strategy and compensate by looking to the existing social contract, the one that their official opposition is supposed to be abiding by but has not.
Would Russell Means, as much as I admire him, provide the unifying figure necessary to educate and influence the nation to our cause that Jefferson would?
I think Russell Means could inspire unifying figures because his loyalty to the United States Constitution cannot be questioned. The principles of natural law in the constitution partially originate with Indigenous Americans and Means is fully qualified to separate the principles of the constitution from the treasonous actions of elements of the U.S. government. Soldiers will respect him, they know he is a scholar, and know quite well that the constitution has been violated by top figures in the chain of command including judges.
I'm for him in every way. I think most people, to my deep regret, are not as familiar with him as with Jefferson. I wish Leonard Peltier wasn't forgotton, and still languishing in prison for a crime I do not believe he committed So many years ago now! There's so much injustice it's hard to know where to start. I guess I chose Jefferson for practical, as well, as idealogical reasons, and so we can take back the flag, a very powerful symbol. Thanks, and all my respects to Mr. Means. Oh, I spent an evening with Leonard Crow Dog and his sons many years ago - very interesting conversation.
You might not know this, but when people came to William and Marys college looking for Jefferson, they were most often redirected with, "You will find him down at the corner with the Indians." Using Russell Means is appropriate as official inspiration because he is absolutely an American, he is not of the white dominated system that is the problem but understands Jefferson and history better than most people.
Great! Let's use him as well! But for God's sake let's reclaim the flag and it's original values! And I think this movement should also look at the deplorable conditions on some of the Native American "reservations." I have had many "Indian" friends, mostly from long ago because I have relocated many times, and I think they should help lead in the effort at environmental restoration. They know more about it than the scientists, in my opinion. Thanks for the comment:)
What could be better than fighting the law of the land with the actual law of the land?!!!
Please allow me to rephrase that for clarity; "defending the law of the land with the actual law of the land?!!!
Thanks.
If Thomas Jefferson was alive today, I'm not sure whether he would be laughing or crying because of the sheer stupidity of the OWS. Does the OWS really think that someone who helped establish capitalism would join forces to destroy it? Saying that Thomas Jefferson would support the OWS is a pathetic attempt to gain credibility from great thinkers-something that the OWS lacks.
Jefferson didn't help establish capitalism. That is one of the typical untruths so pervasive from you trolls; whether out of a desire to mislead and pander to the uneducated, or simply because you are to lazy and arrogant to educate yourself I don't know, and don't really care.
I didn't' say he did you stupid dumb-ass. He and the founding father modeled the government as capitalistic. Read a history book that goes into KNOWLEDGEABLE depth about this. It is the OWS that panders to the uneducated, lazy and arrogant. You are intellectual imbeciles. ii.
Mao is really a better inspirational figure for you chuckle heads
Jefferson would not have gone along with the direct democracy idea of the movement. All of our founding fathers were dead set against it. Which is why they created the Republic. Which we have lost and why many are so angry.
A very important question. You are right, they didn't. But they did not have access to Computer tech. On the other hand I think direct voting via computers is subject to tampering. Also, I don't like the faceless, impersonal aspect of it. Yet again, on the other hand, it would be a far more direct implementaion of the peoples will. My thoughts aren't resolved around this issue yet. Direct voting would have to be subject to rigourous checks and balances, and I'm not sure how we would go about achieveing that. Such a complicated question? Great post!
Only two things need to be done to return us to the Republic that has lasted so well for 200+ years. Repeal the 17th Amendment to make senators accountable to the states, and fix campaign finance laws, where only citizens can give money to candidates or parties, in small amounts. Also barring rich individuals from funding their own campaigns, and stopping the ability of campaigns to take on loans.
All very good ideas, but Roosevelt reformed this system once and the 1% got the upper hand again. We must somehow make these fixes permanet. I am open to some form of more direct individual envolvement also, but that must be approached very carefully. I am in favor because I believe in the purest form of democracy applicable, and also because I think it would revitalize people's connection to their own power through the vote. Complicated questions!
Wilson regretted the 17th Amendment years after it passed, because it increased the corruption. Really, America existed for 100s of years where people were happy with the best government in the world. We have bastardized it in the name of empowering the government to do more and more. Democracy is only a way for 51% of the people to screw 49% of the people. It is a dangerous way to go.
People empower government, special interest corrupts it, and by special interests I mean ultra-concentrated wealth.
Right, so take out special interests, ALL OF THEM, and keep our republic. No need to regress to a democracy.
That is a valid view in my opinion. The system worked pretty well before it was completely corrupted. As I say, my mind is not completely made up on this issue. In order to reform the system we may need to resort to some pretty radical tactics. Those who are now really in power won't just give it back because a few of us ask for it, but I'm sure you are aware of that. Thanks for the very interesting discussion. I'm sure if we could talk face to face we could come to mutual agreement here:)
How about charging the two parties with violations of the RICO statutes, and crimes against humanity in the courts by a mass tort case? Think you could get a couple million or more people to sign onto it? You couldn't get the law enforcement to do anything about it, but breaking up the parties would be a better way to go. Here is something funny Its an old british show its really funny. But this particular episode will illuminate why ordinary means will never get us where we need to be. its worth watching it is hilarious. http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/8JkKGAGewpA/
Thanks
Jefferson was a man of paradoxes. He died poor and violating most of the principles he espoused.
He was a free thinker, whose thoughts were dynamic and subject to change to meet tactical objectives. He died poor, but definately DID NOT violate his principles. And what is the crime of dying poor anyway? I didn't see Jesus or Ghandi dying with vast accumulated fortunes. That is a false measure of a human life.
He held slaves, he was frivolous, he manipulated the press against his opponents, he schemed within the Washington administration, and he never married again but was screwing a houseslave.
Everyone at that time in Virginia owned slaves. See my comment about the enslaved people who now produce American clothing, for example, a situation that whether we like it or not implicates us all in slavery. He freed many of his slaves. He fought tirelessly for a reform of that condition. He was anything but frivolous - every politician manipulates the media against their opponents - you are doing it right now. And he never married the houseslave he was "Screwing" because interracial marriage was illegal at the time. They were together openly for 23 years and had a family. Any other ways to prevent this movement from adopting the inspiration of an unparellelled figure of national inclusion? You must certainly see the powerful political symbology of going back to out own traditions in fighting this fight. The false allogation of being unpatriotic has been used against progressives, successully, many times in America. We ARE the patriots, and we shouldn't forget it! By the way, I don't take exeption to anyone advocating Paine, or Whashington, or Martin Luther King, or Ghandi, or even Martin Luther. Fine, but those who advocate Hamilton are almost certainly trolls with the agenda to misdirect this movement. Hamilton wrote the corporate charter.
How many times did he redo his house? Do you know they were going to have a state lottery just to pay off his excesses?
If everyone in Virginia held slaves then we should probably not model our ideals after any slaveholders in Virginia.
You have inherited a society with certain values. I assume you are here to try to change those values. Should we then discredit you because your society is dominated by corporate tyranny, simply because that was the condition to which you were born, and disregard your efforts to change it. Let me tell you, if you can find a society devoid of evil and find someone who perfectly represents that society devoid of all evil let me know. I will be glad to support them over Jefferson.
It would be better to mold the movement after Abraham Lincoln juxtaposed with Martin Luther King.
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Jefferson, yes.
Also Martin Luther King, Jr., and his commitment to non-violence.
SCLC is willing to do training and training video for Occupy use. Since we're "leaderless" there's no way to get anything done....
That would be excellent.
Yes, I agree.He proved that you could spend to prosperity. Of course when he died he left a hell of a debt for his family to pay.
That's because he didn't focus all his energies on acquision, yet he left a far greater legacy than that of simple wealth
Now contrast to John Adams. He Acquired wealth, did not indulge and left just as strong of a legacy.
No, he did not leave "just as great a legacy."
No, I think he was much more a believer in the kind of centralized money and power that we have now, and that Jefferson so strongly opposed
Regardless of what you may want to believe regarding differences in philosphy, Adams was more pragmatic and frugalm where as Jefferson had a taste for the finer things, regardless of who had to pay for it.
The reason Jefferson died pennyless was in great degree owing to the fact that he liberated his slaves, the basis of most wealth in the colonies at that time. To reduce everything of value in mankind to the mere acquision of wealth; to see that as the foundation of human values, is exactly what OWS opposes. It is an essentially narrow and self-serving vision. Thus, I think Jefferson was a greater figure than Hamilton.
He only liberated his children.
However he did refuse to beat slaves or otherwise badly mistreat them.
One assumes that policy impacted profitability.
Yes, you are right - got me there - I made that assertion from memory. He only liberated some of his slaves. Sorry about that mistake. Yet he consistantly voted against the slave trade, and was a strong abolitionist. Duing the context of the time has was as radically against slavery as anyone, he even married one and had mixed race children. By the way, we Americans now wear clothing produced by slave labor, and I don't see that many of us making our own clothes.
I can just imagine my wife and kid trying to sew.
And we've got a damn fine sewing machine. Classic Brother with a half-dozen attachments for doing buttons, installing heavy zippers and the like.
They know where the needle is. Maybe not how to thread it.
(I've done sail repairs....)
Right, we live in a system that requires separation of labor. Is a truck driver going to come home after a week on the road and on his days off sew his own clothes? I don't think so. We are all tied to the reality of our times, regardless of our best intentions. Many have protested working conditions in these forign sweatshops, including myself, but there are simply too many issues to tackle. That's why we need to focus on one at a time. I say we have a day where EVERYBODY burns their credit cards. Then go from there.
Specialization of labor.
B+ for effort.
Btw: I haven't had a credit card, ever. A couple of company ones, but that's different.
We don't owe a dime to anybody.
Neither do I, but a lot of people do.
I think first...you need to read about Jefferson. He would be diametrically opposed to you if you knew anything about him. I've read 6 books on the man. You got your info on TMZ
What makes you think you know anything about me, or where I get my info. If you read six (wow) books on "the man," maybe you could make an actual point, backed by substanciating evidence - not taken out of context, rather then merely making thinly disguised ad-hominm attacks.
Just quit peddling your ignorance here. You are wrong.
Still no substance from the man who read six books here, just more ad-hominm attacks.
well he was a slave owner and many days I feel like an owned slave
anyone else?
You have no idea what it would be like to actually be an "owned slave". There's all the difference in the world between coughing up a few dollars a month in taxes but otherwise living a life of comfort and privilege vs. being a piece of human property controlled by whippings, beatings and rapes, deprived of all rights whose only function is to perform backbreaking labor from dawn to dusk. Your comparison is repugnant to anyone with any knowledge of history and civil rights.
You have no idea what I know or where I've been.
Okay, so let me ask you to clarify your comment about "many days I feel like an owned slave". What prompted you to make that statement and what is your point in making it? What, specifically, goes on in these "many days" in which you feel that it is either labor all day under physically, mentally and emotionally painful conditions or face a whipping, or starve? Are there no other options available to you? Do you make enough income to not only feed, clothe and house yourself but to save and to enjoy recreation and enough leisure time to pursue self-advancement? Do you have the right to gather with other workers and negotiate the terms of employment with your employer if your employer is being abusive or exploitative to the point of keeping you in a fixed subservient position?
I make plenty, I have multiple pieces of real property paid for outright.
I also see how much I am taxed on everything into perpetuity.
This makes me a slave, even without anything financed.
Then to see huge entities getting nearly a billion bucks back on their takes on profits of over 500 billion bucks, well, how else is there to see it.
btw.... have you ever been held prisoner during wartime situations?
I didn't think so, so don't try and tell anyone they don't know about slavery or anything like it.
Have you been a prisoner of war? If so, yes, I would say that qualifies as an "enslaved" state of affairs, generally speaking. But you initially said that you feel like a slave on "most days", which I would presume is the present tense and I seriously doubt you are a prisoner of war now. Or that you have ever been. Because surely if you were, you would not make such an ignorant statement as paying taxes makes you a slave. I would think you'd be most pleased to be alive and happy to chip in your share for being in a country that, until recently, provided you with the security, stability and oppoertunity to prosper that you did not experience as a POW in whatever country it was.
Is this slavery?
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2011/11/11/pkg-savidge-veteran-fraud-suit.cnn
Mind you, the citizens paid the banks, UPFRONT, for these benefits the banks, in turn, stole outright, AND UPFRONT AGAIN, from our nation's vets.
nearly 2billion bucks, one can buy lots of tedious ditch digging with 2 billion bucks... if the money is free and stolen from the people
aren't they enslaved by the fraud perpetrated upon them?
yes
Your ilk attempts to create a confusing, obfuscating slippery slope of inversion in the word "slavery" for ultimately selfish purposes. Such as arguing that taxes are slavery and thereby not only minimizing the experiences of ACTUAL SLAVES but in overdramatizing your own personal butthurt. And such as insinuating that maybe ACTUAL SLAVERY "wouldn't be so bad" compared to the faux definition of "slavery" that you equate with things such as taxes, being on welfare or taking out a loan. All of which you frame as "choices" that people make that are their own fault if they are trapped in, thus paving the way for the faux-philosophical debates you people engage in about whether it would be acceptable for people to "choose" to sell themselves into slavery now. It's all an attempt to collapse the distinctions into a flat, neutered definition and its ultimate goal is to justify one group of people being "free" to enslave others. It's very transparent and people aren't buying it.
really? nothing to buy, it's obvious and factual and that is why The People are rising.
really? nothing to buy, it's obvious and factual and that is why The People are rising.
People are rising against those specific members of our government who have pushed and enacted policy that frees big business to concentrate mass wealth in a few hands, not protesting government as a big abstract entity.
you do what you do
you see what you see
I have my own eyes an hands
and is slavery actually illegal in the USA???
in many ways it is not
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289
You are ignorant and need to watch your mouth.
He also freed his slaves and married one; not officially because that was illegal at the time.
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What exactly are "real" american values? What does that mean? I am really asking. Not being argumentative.
This is such a vast country, with values brought from all over. We have many faiths, many colors, many traditions, many values.
I have never been very patriotic because I have always felt that the underlying "Value" of America in general is greed.
We started right out by coming to a new country, expecting free land, hunting gold, enslaving the native populations and stealing the land. And it seems we still haven't got enough. Until we learn to be content we shall never have value.
I mean the founding values of this country, inspired by the enlightenment, that brought forth the notion of a society concieved to further the cause of freedom and justice for all, against an historical backdrop of almost universal oppression by an elite then called a monarchy. That idealistic vision has been replaced, as you say, by a vision of greed, and that is what we are setting out to change - to go back to the original values of America. You might want to read Jefferson and study the enlightenment. Thanks for your post - I completely understand you disillusionment.
Good idea to study the Enlightenment, to determine what served to influence, but also study the reaction to it on all levels. Is it possible the the Founding Fathers themselves were possessed of a greater enlightenment and if so where did it originate?
What is "enlightenment"?
Goes back to the Greeks, and specifically Socrates and Plato. Socrates has been slandered as a right-wing elitist. Nothing could be more untrue. The Renassance (SP) resulted from reviving classical ideals, so did the enlightenment.
What is enlightenment?
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Greed has indeed impeded mans progress, I agree completely.
well we'll just have this all solved once you guys remove greed from human nature! 5 min?
No, it's an understanding that goes back to Jesus, and before. The struggle will continue, but we need to appeal to the higher lights of human nature.
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You mean George Jefferson, right? The dry cleaner guy who used to have a comedy show? Surely not Thomas Jefferson.
Yes, he taught us to move on up.
You should read rather than watching the television. I seriously doubt, based on that comment, that you have read six books in your entire life.
I seriously doubt, based on that comment, that you have ever had a sense of humor.
I do, but it doesn't include "The Jeffersons."
i think people dressed up like thomas jefferson are kind of sexy, but not as sexy as a man who dresses up as matha washington as his normal attire.
Thanks, I think this comment is the dummest comment I have yet seen on this forum, and I have seen comments so dumb it makes your hair stand on end.
lol. its not fuckin easy dude.
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We are all slaves, to outmoded and fear-bound ways of interpreting the human expierence.
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What the devil are you talking about, or should I even bother asking?
Real American values are sickening. You wave the flag with your propaganda. Waving flags and shitting on flags are the same hypocrisy.
Was Tom a hypocrite? He did own slaves.
He was a hypocrite. But he was one hell of a writer and thinker. A truly multifaceted person. He did see the problem with slavery and knew that someday this problem would fester into a major confrontation.
He knew what the ideals were and that essentially was his gift to us. When he said..........................................All men are created Equal.............
He knew exactly what that meant and what it would mean. He was very smart and wise. Thomas wrote constantly as well reading in many different languages. A true genius.
Knowledge Is Power. That's what he wants us to know now. We can do this. We have all the advantages of these modern times we live.
America, it is time to wake up! And yes, let's stand on the shoulders of these giants first. We must learn and understand our history. Let's appeal to Reason!!!
Puzzlin, that's the best summation I've seen.
Not a problem. I know a thing or two about TJ.
Thanks!
I always been thinking that they didn't know how to get rid of slavery without crashing their world to pieces and did the best they could, like if they thought if they gave the right foundation, someday we all could and be a better place than they started. I think that the Constitution is just coming into its teenagerhood but not fully matured yet, but we don't want to kill it just because its got a little angst. We want to see it come to an adult, and live its potential.
Absolutely, I agree with that characterization. Politicians can't be too radical in their times or they are voted out. They compromise. Jefferson didn't think we could end slavery in his time. Lincoln didn't think so either, at first, and then when he saw the perfect timing he sprung the emancipation proclamation right in the middle of the civil war when essentially it was at the center of what ripped the south and north apart. It was big elephant in the room. The south was at it's peak with slaves. Their were more blacks then whites in the south at the time. The south was rich on the backs of slaves. Very rich. The civil war decimated their wealth and rightfully so, that was blood money made from slavery. We almost lost our country over slavery.
Now, it's almost surreal we could have done that. But then again, there was Hitler, so what may be hard to believe can be very possible. We are certainly not immune from it today. The human insanity is all around us.
Good Luck !
They were no more capable than we are of ending capitalism.
Real American values are sickening? After a statement like that we have nothing further to say to each other.
Was Tom a hypocrite? Excellent question... Tom's slaves arrived in various ways; many were inherited by his wife, and for that very reason he was not at liberty to sell them. He did attempt on at least two occasions to introduce legislation that would have emancipated all. But there is another aspect of this: many of them were the product of third and fourth generation miscegenation - they were family. As a serious student of history and a genealogist, I can tell you beyond all doubt, that Jefferson believed he had fathered at least seven and possibly eight children with Sally Hemings.
Was he a hypocrite? Yes, and I'll tell you why. He was outspoken in his life long philosophy, and yet had also lived well beyond his means; he was heavily indebted and therefore did not feel he was possessed of the financial ability to free them, even in death. My own feeling on this is that Jefferson saw need to keep up with the Jones, both in life and in death, in the form of posterity.
Washington, on the other had, freed all upon the death of Martha and pensioned many for life. Ultimately, in writing his will, he chose to heed all past criticism and put honor above wealth. Is it a spurious honor? Yes, it is, in the sense that Washington was a man of varied means; there was other wealth to be devised and bequeathed, and, he had no children of his own.