Forum Post: I think the link listed below is the most important occupy-related link on the internet. . .
Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 10, 2012, 3:40 p.m. EST by therising
(6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
*I think that links like this are the most important occupy-related links on the internet: http://da.nycga.net/
Google any city's Occupy site in the country and you're likely to find a direct action working group. Every working group is important, but my personal view is that the direct action working groups are where the rubber meets the road (where feet hit the street). Whether it's a march, sit in, walk out, strike, boycott, an afternoon of handing out leaflets, a street theater performance or any other of the dozens of forms of nonviolent direct action, it's when we take action that others take notice. That's how the good word spreads, awareness arises and the movement grows in numbers and in strength. Direct action brings injustice into the light of day and when direct actions are particularly creative, noticeable or large, even the mainstream press can't ignore them.
*We need more of this. More NON-VIOLENT DIRECT ACTIONS. Would love for participation at all levels to be so high that the list of past and future direct actions is outrageously long.*. Half way down this post are 3 suggestions for what kind of direct actions some might want to take next. But first, what can protesting do?
What can one protester do? These 2 photos tell the story:
And what can a group of those individual protesters do? These 5 photos make it plain:
Tiananmen Square crowd http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/gallery/p2p-47271336/
New York http://occupywallst.org/article/november-17-historic-day-action-99/ AND http://publicintelligence.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/occupy-the-bqe.jpg
and Walmart's in small-town America: http://www.google.com/search?q=walmart+protest+photos&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#miuv=3
Americans and citizens of the world rise up and take notice when their fellow citizens take the streets, squares and public spaces. The mainstream press can't ignore it at that point.. And that's what REALLY shakes the power structure, the LIGHT OF DAY.
We collectively have the power to shine that light wherever we want to aim it. It's a powerful light. We just need to wake up and realize we ARE the 99%, that we have more in common than we have dividing us. Then we can make decisions from a position of united strength instead of demands from a position of divided weakness.
NOTE 1: I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to stand in front of tanks, perform street theater or march on picket lines. We all have loved ones we need to take care of, work to do and the daily business of life to attend to and those things are of prime importance. Even a rally of 100,000 is only made up of a fraction of a percent of the country's citizens. What matters just as much as the march is that there are people at home affirming the importance of the direct action, spreading information about the issue at hand. That's the whole point really, to get the whole neighborhood, the whole town, the whole state talking and taking action of their own in the form of decisions in their own lives. For example, people vote every day with their wallets. And the impact of that can be huge. The nonviolent direct action is the match. The rest of us are the fuel as we help by spreading the awareness. We facilitate change when we make it a part of our daily lives, not just one passionate day of marching.
NOTE 2: *I think we need to remember that part of our job, if we're someone who can get out into the streets, is to create nonviolent tension whether it's with sit ins, marches, street theater, walk outs, writings, strikes, blockades, boycotts or any other of the dozens of types of nonviolent action. Tension is not a bad word. In fact, it may be the primary ingredient of healthy change.*
Martin Luther King, Jr. and Gandhi were both experts at working with others to create healthy tension. King described it like this in his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail":
"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."
"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."
Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.
So what do we do? Well here's one person's view:
THREE SUGGESTIONS:
*SUGGESTION ONE* -- Right now, as many of us as possible should "Occupy the Capitol" -- Nonviolent direct action
From the current occupywallst.org News page: “In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, such as ‘right to work.’ It is a law to rob us of our civil rights and job rights. Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining by which unions have improved wages and working conditions of everyone…Wherever these laws have been passed, wages are lower, job opportunities are fewer and there are no civil rights. We do not intend to let them do this to us. We demand this fraud be stopped.” —Martin Luther King
full article from news page calling on people to Occupy the Capitol: http://www.occupywallst.org/article/lansing-occupy-capitol-d11/ Here we go... :)
*SUGGESTION TWO*. -- Do THIS in the U.S. http://occupywallst.org/article/starbucks-occupied-across-britain/ . Brilliant. This action really shows how you can reveal the absurdity of actions of corporations that are too cozy with government:
*SUGGESTION THREE* -- major nonviolent direct action (either summer 2013 or summer 2014) in support of these 8 items http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ . Obviously more detail would need to be filled in. And here's an overview of how it would happen. I think it would take a crowd of about 800,000 which should be entirely doable if the right steps were taken and the message were clear:
TACTICS FOR DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS (nonviolent direct action)
We should make the demands below very publicly at a press conference a few days after arriving in DC. When doing so, we should give a clear deadline of 3 days for a firm written commitment with signatures from at least 60% of members of House and 60% of the members of the Senate to pass these bills by the end of the year. If this commitment on the full slate of demands is not met by midnight on the 3rd day (which it won't be) we should be prepared to non-violently block access to all or part of the Capitol complex the next morning by traditional proven non-violent tactics. The purpose is to bring the leaders of the House and Senate to the negotiating table.
NOTE: There are always entrances because there is always a point where people who work there have to leave the public street and enter secure space. We should focus our non-violent direct action and civil disobedience on those entrances no matter where they move them because these are, by definition, always accessible.
We must adhere to the nonviolent principles set forth by Gandhi and ML King, Jr.
I think we need to understand that there is a good kind of tension and we need to create it. Martin Luther King, Jr. described it in his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail" (excerpt and link above).
*I think the intro to the American people for this action goes something like this:* http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn-a-message-to-all-americans/
AND THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
And then you give them this list (adding some detail and a date of course): http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/
I'm not in any way suggesting that now is the time for that. Tons of groundwork would need to be laid of course in all sorts of ways.
NOTE: I don't think we all have to do the same thing. I think Occupy is a fleet of powerful ships rather than one tanker. Here's why: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-is-a-fleet-of-ships-and-there-is-no-they-in/
This link is not working : http://da.nycga.net/*
Why I think that OWS and ALL Occupy Groups are so awesome - Is That They Are Not Restricted To One Issue - But Include ALL Issues - ALL Issues That tie Together To point-out/Demonstrate The ILLs in Our Society/World.
Some say this is a wrong thing to do ( mostly attackers - IMO ) as it dilutes. I Beg To Differ. It ( IMO ) "showing" all of the ILLs Shows the links that pretty much all go back to = PROFITS/GREED Over People
OWS and all Occupy Groups by showing and educating on all of the ills of society and how they are tied together - PROVIDE GOOD CLEAR REASONING FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE TO BE CONCERNED AND REASONS FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED - UNITED.
Great points. United is definitely the way to go. I couldn't agree more. Also thanks for alerting me about the link. I believe it has now been fixed. Does it work for you now?
Nope says not found - the link I copied - I will try the link at the top in the post - OK - YEP - That one Works now.
This blog ( from the link ) is like the news page on this site. That is cool. The more avenues there are on the internet to discover what OWS/OCCUPY is all about - THE BETTER The more opportunities for a discovery by new individuals the better. More avenues more discovery more forwarding/sharing - faster growing audience - faster spreading education awareness involvement actions. ALL GOOD
Like you mentioned a day or two ago I think, communication is the key. Spreading the good word.
Absolutely - nothing good happens in an information vacuum.
I'm eager to see more films about Occupy. So much footage out there.
Agree {:-]) maybe some day in a theater ( coming to a theater near you ) some day on TV.
It would be fun though. :)
Very :
Kids - This is How it all began to be corrected .................. the work continues it is a daily constant requirement ........... but yeah this is how it started and evolved to where we find ourselves today....... still moving forward on a program of continuous improvement ...................
Onward and upward!
Keep-on KEEPING-ON.
I am excited to see Occupy continue to evolve.
Yes - and grow - And Grow - AND GROW !!!!!!!!!!!!! GROW
We need the message to break through the gauze of materialism and propaganda that covers our eyes.
Yep - I think that many who have gotten a lot of possessions have found that their life is still missing something - Life/Spirit.
I think early to mid summer (are they in session then) to give us time to meander over to see the capital, something my son should see, on his summer break. in fact, I'll just pencil it now.
The list of demands must be published on website at time or before, so public knows what is going on.
Maybe we should have each of the eight be There own seperate post, (and any that we want to add) so people and lawers can further input, maybe even get congressional sponsors prior.
With end of calendar year deadline.
I like your positive spirit and can do attitude! Thanks for taking the time to read and comment. Impossible is just a word :)
But practically speaking, it would take an incredible amount of organization, planning and energy to lay the groundwork for this with Congress and with the American people. It would probably be difficult to plan and have enough support by summer 2013. It might be best to set a summer 2014 goal.
What do you think? And what will Americans need to hear in order to rise off their sofas? We'd actually probably need 800,000.
Here's some food for thought how one might approach people who are generally frustrated but don't yet know where to aim that frustration: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/our-turn-a-message-to-all-americans/
A person I admire a great deal once spoke at length about timing, so I was thinking about the time, and I know it's a reach, but Reich for Treasury ?
That would make a difference in the next few years, but I don’t see it happening.
http://books.google.com/books?id=quYQDr_HPukC&source=gbs_slider_cls_metadata_7_mylibrary
Damn! That would be REALLY cool :-)
it would scare the hell out of Wal Street
Damn right it would. Does Obama have the guts to do it? Reich and Warren could do great things.
I have been hammering this for 14 months but let me address it from your "direction"
"My" issue & NYC OWS WG
http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
is designed to educate about a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood & citizens united -
basically with the goal of removing capitalist money from government.
HERE IS YOUR ANSWER:
I agree that ending corporate personhood is of great importance.
I think communication (especially through nonviolent direct action) is one of the keys because once we get out into the world and communicate with others, we start realizing that we have more in common than we have separating us. Once that clicks, we'll realize that we actually ARE the 99% and that it's been absurd to have the system rigged to benefit just the top 1%. Once that realization sinks in, we'll be able to stand up together and make decisions from a position of united strength instead of making demands from a position of divided weakness.
No wonder no one at NYCGA would make the demand we all have a right to. Article V. From that page.
A better world is not one bound by unity bred in a finite example of achievement — we will always need to confront and dismantle hierarchical power where we see it,
Ironically, hierarchical power creates the rights used to protest.
Participation yes, but reasonable intent in this case respects the right to assemble and speak which originates with the US constitution. It respects the peoples demands, their needs, their lives.
Seeing demands met MUST BE MORE IMPORTANT than the power to dismantle/block/disrupt the hierarchical power which creates the right to assemble and articulate the demand.
Occupy is engaging in circular destruction. As it uses the right to assemble guaranteed by our supporting social contract to destroy hierarchical power, which creates the right, the circularity has returned to self destruct.
Lets test this assertion with a question. What happened to the movement? We know the needs that created the demands did not go away.
Do we really need to choose? Can't we have both. If Occupy is a fleet of ships in a powerful armada, can't some ships be attacking on one front and others attacking on another front? Hitting from the inside and out creates tension, the good kin of tension. Martin King, Jr. in his letter from the Birmingham jail out it like this:
"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."
"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."
Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.
Divided is better than disabled. But its silly that the demands are constitutional but no occupiers of the nycga will stand for the constitution and they demand their constitutional right to assemble etc.
Its cognitively inconsistent
The timing of "crisis" is designed to blow off social steam which is made/timed to make the movement look like a problem rather than a solution.
I do have a position relating to Kings writing and this strategy I've posted a few minutes ago uses it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-think-the-page-at-link-below-is-the-most-importa/#comment-891841
Great post BTW:-)
Our social contract is broken, our government is broken, our American dream is broken. The American income distribution is like a Detroit V8 firing on one cylinder.... It doesn’t matter how much you step on the gas, only one cylinder is going to fire, we know which cylinder that is.
The Constitution has been hacked. Vulnerabilities were identified and exploited. The right to petition the government was commandeered by monied special interests. The 1st Amendment now applies to virtual beings... corporations. They have more power than We the People.
Until the Constitution gets patched and the exploits removed, the hierarchical power structure works against us. The very few at the top controls the wealth and power over the vast majority of us. Equal Opportunity guaranteed to us by the Constitution no longer exists.
Excellent!
geo wrote: "Until the Constitution gets patched and the exploits removed, the hierarchical power structure works against us. The very few at the top controls the wealth and power over the vast majority of us. Equal Opportunity guaranteed to us by the Constitution no longer exists."
So true. However, confronting the tool of the hierarchical power structure is NOT going to be effective. Particularly if you are not working overtly for and promoting enforcement of the very standard, rules and laws that TOOL is supposed to be obeying.
Now we see the division in America. Those that sit around in front of televisions BELIEVING what they see and hear pay for the TOOL. They are not going to respond well to the effort to "dismantle hierarchical power" because they support and pay for it within their belief system.
Socialistic speech or intent is not going to work with them. The constitution respects the SAME VALUES that quality socialism does and they will listen WHEN the protest is carefully aligned with law and the constitution. They know that often socialistic republics work quite well. However, they also know that societal adaptations are not easy for them and they do not evolve at the same rate as capitalistic societies.
Capitalism can have theme, standards, rules and limits. America needs to end the notion of UNLIMITED capitalism.
The constitution respects the SAME VALUES that quality socialism does
No it doesn't.... let me correct myself..... The Constitution is so vague on key aspects that the US Supreme Court (depending on how the membership has been stacked) can vary its interpretation of Constitutional law to benefit the highest bidder. The 14th Amendment was supposed to be about civil rights after slavery and instead corporations, non-people, filed the vast majority of Supreme Court cases, and gained rights far more than former slaves did.
Think about the differences in interpretation of the General Welfare clause.
A whole power structure is in place because of selective interpretation of the Constitution.
Impact of free speech abridged and manipulation of educational materials-dunbing down, 1912. Norman Dodd and the Reese commission.
Transcript of inteview: www.supremelaw.org/authors/dodd/interview.htm
geo wrote: "No it doesn't.... let me correct myself..... The Constitution is so vague on key aspects that the US Supreme Court (depending on how the membership has been stacked) can vary its interpretation of Constitutional law to benefit the highest bidder."
Constitutional intent can only be derived from the prime values of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The people are the only ones that can rightfully define those. Accordingly all of the actions of the supreme court you indicate are not of the "law of the land" if they violate your human needs or cause society to operate in such away.
This is EXACTLY why we need to invoke Article V of the US constitution. From that position, the people can dictate to the congress and the courts EXACTLY how such interpretations are to be made.
With the abridging of free speech and the dumbing down, we were deprived of our ability to conduct constitutional discourse across social classes and lost our refined ability as people to KNOW OUR PURPOSES.
"the people are the rightful nasters of the congress and the courts" (Lincoln 1859).
Constitutional intent can only be derived from the prime values of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The people are the only ones that can rightfully define those.
Operationally it doesn't work this way. We don't live in a democracy. We live in a representative republic. Others are chosen with the hope to enact on our behalfs and they don't and won't. The political money/power machine is too well entrenched for 'candidates of the people' to every garnish any power. It costs millions and billions to run campaigns.
We may need an Article V.... but how do you propose to get it?
"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments,"
Think 2/3 of our reps in Congress are going to vote against their best interests? Same applies to the state legislatures.... they are picked under the same political money/power machine.
We could write thousands of petitions... but legally they have no value. So exactly how do you propose to get everyone in powers attention to this short of shutting down the country in massive work strikes to show solidarity for an Article V?
Good post. Practically accurate in most ways. It is only lacking the implementation of the IDEALS which the constitution represents.
One error. At Article V, if the states are agreeing; and my whole position is about a method to empower agreement; Congress has no vote at all.
Screw the petitions UNTIL we, the people have agreed upon our purposes and EXACTLY how the constitution serves them. We only need to assure that rights are before freedoms. Rights are what is used to preserve freedom WITHOUT violence.
Once we agree, THEN citizens of a state petition their legislation to apply and petition other states to demand congress call the convention.
geo wrote: "So exactly how do you propose to get everyone in powers attention to this short of shutting down the country in massive work strikes to show solidarity for an Article V?"
Firstly. It doesn't have to happen overnight. It just needs to happen. Albeit, we've been induced to waste a lot of time, so there is urgency.
It starts with a group realizing how they separate themselves, and their right to self determination through the constitution, from the BS manipulated world of politics by immersion in constitutional intent serving constitutional defense through Article V.
It starts with statements accepted and agreed upon by the masses, much as we see here, but with a natural form of leadership emerging because of the inherent acceptance of the simple principles the federal government MUST stand for. This agreement is carried into official offices by citizens who act as witness to the constitutionality of officials, or not. When officials are unconstitutional to a degree, a special election is justified to fill the office. The petition that justifies that for state legislators will be something that basically cannot be humanly denied.
Fundamental human purposes are the foundation of our constitution. We cannot have leaders that are not prepared to immediately accept and act parallel to those, which are basically the law.
It all about legitimate separation from and elevation over the manipulated world of partisan politics or its false structures of information.
And so there would be at least 8 new ammendments, or could they be packaged, a second bill of rights so to speak.
I would love for the public to get a look at that second bill of rights.
First things first.
Before you can hope to accomplish ANY of this, FLAKESnews has GOT to go. Along with ANY other news source that sells "shares" publicly, or privately.
Chicken and egg-In order to do that, the authority of Article V is required. The validity of what you say is the reason Preparatory Amendment has free speech before the others.
1)End the abridging of free speech 2)Campaign finance reform 3)Secure the vote
All citizens agree that amendment effecting those goals is made BEFORE Article V is generally conducted. Because of congressional evasion of duty relating to convening Article V 100 years ago,
http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
delegates must be elected and ratification of some proposed amendments are only constitutionally done through public voting.
Unabridging free speech overcomes the media affliction/attack America is subject to and enables a truer democracy.
Please explain how that will ameliorate FLAKESnews and the rest of the right wing hate speech out there.
For the public to be informed, that MUST happen before anything else.
And I do MEAN ameliorate, it's negative effect is undeniable.
Revise the 1St Amendment
shooz wrote: "Please explain how that will ameliorate FLAKESnews and the rest of the right wing hate speech out there."
Okay, the preparatory amendments we need are; 1)End the abridging of free speech 2)Campaign finance reform 3)Secure the vote. I can show that it is most logical to effect 1) by revising the 1St Amendment. Here is a draft I've prepared.
DRAFT REV. Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; Congress shall see that nothing abridges the freedom of speech and the primary methods or systems of it shall be first accessible for the unity of the people with its possible greater meaning through understanding one another in; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Congress shall see that nothing abridges freedom of the press in its service to the unity of the people; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances or defense of this constitution.
EXISTING: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
shooz wrote: "For the public to be informed, that MUST happen before anything else."
The revision will allow that. The people can independently implement the revised 1St through an official structure like this. I suggest 300 citizens.
Officially implemented, as a federal law recognized by all states, citizens would only have to gather a group with a common understanding based in facts, of information reasonably shown as vital, also showing how the presentation/perspective of such is currently lacking from the public information, satisfying the requsites public must have to invoe the law in the creation of an understanding of the vital information from which can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Citizens with issues developed in this way, and a relatively small petition qualifying, would have a right to see compulsive state and federal control over network broadcasting licensure in order to compel adequate production funding and national broadcasting to effect the education of the public on given subjects.
shooz wrote: "And I do MEAN ameliorate, it's negative effect is undeniable."
The side effect is that democracy is made truer to its ideal.
I don't really understand pseudolawyereze.
I also can't find anything that sounds remotely like a amelioration of the "FLAKEnews" effect.
That has to happen first. Even the amelioration, especially the amelioration
Or there will be NO "common understanding based in facts".
Just not gonna happen without that, and I outright reject your suggestion that happening as a side effect is guaranteed.
You have denied the FLAKESnews effect.
answering on an iPhone here.
all media issues will resolve when citizens are able to Share difficult truths widely. once they let the cats out of the bags media will look as corrupt as they are IF they do not address the issues.
How about a comment from you on what you think that effect is and what it has damaged.
You won't know if it's working, if you don't know that.
shooz, this does not cognit.
shooz wrote: "How about a comment from you on what you think that effect is and what it has damaged."
The above is 2 questions in separate context which your ambiguity tries to conceal. The effect of the; deprivals,dynamic manipulations, deceptions, misleadings and exploitations has been the imposition of ignorance and division of families generationally as well as from the knowledge needed for survival. It has damaged the Ability of Americans to share and understand what they need to defend the constitution and survive.
Dynamic manipulation of communications is what we refer to, if I were to generalize.
shooz "How about a comment from you on what you think that effect is and what it has damaged."
Seems to be 2 questions or doesn't cognit.
We do not know what we do not know. But someone else might.
Within the dynamic manipulations are both deceptions and misleadings relating to the public sharing of information, while this is happening, over generations, the populations have suffered various exploitations which empower the parasitic mentality fearfully seeking dominance.
Not another manipulative quote monkey.
You don't admit that FLAKESnews has any effect at all do you?
That's why you are unable to clearly answer the question I've asked you numerous times.
Thanks, I know that now.
[Removed]
Why do you speak in riddles?
Evasive riddles, in which you pretend not to know the meaning of the question asked.
A question I've asked you to clarify the answer to more than once.
C'mon, answer the question with clarity, instead of evasion.
shooz wrote: "Why do you speak in riddles?"
Labeling my speech in such a way shows you want people think I speak in riddles when I've basically stated your question IS NOT ANSWERABLE.
shooz wrote: "Evasive riddles, in which you pretend not to know the meaning of the question asked."
If that is true then you will rephrase your question and I will fail to answer reasonably. You've already passed an opportunity to do that.
Your question is not cognitively intact. I explain exactly how here.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-think-the-page-at-link-below-is-the-most-importa/#comment-892344
Fix it.
First they came for Fox and I didn't care since I don't watch Fox...
Shooz, you are asking for something very, very dangerous. And totally outside the original subject matter of this thread. Are you a troll?
It's the most important matter of all.
It was recognized by FDR, at the start of the media expansion.
For ANY of what he is asking to work, it's effects MUST be ameliorated.
If that makes me a troll, I guess i am, at least in your book.
Maybe this helps
. Judith Lichtenberg has outlined conditions in which freedom of the press may constrain freedom of speech, for example where the media suppresses information or stifles the diversity of voices inherent in freedom of speech. Lichtenberg argues that freedom of the press is simply a form of property right summed up by the principle "no money, no voice".[9]
In "On Liberty" (1859) John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[39] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[39]
Limitations
For specific country examples see Freedom of speech by country, and Criminal speech. According to the Freedom Forum Organization, legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights.[38] Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography, or hate speech. Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction or social disapprobation, or both.[39]
Thanks for tying but the issue remains.
1859? I reject as too quaint to be applicable. Much has happened and been discovered in the fields of communication in the interim.
Limitations?
Too many to enumerate.
What of the effects of propaganda?
What about deliberate misinformation? ( A stock in trade, at FLAKESnews.)
I'm asking to have the effects of that ameliorated before we can even begin.
A wall of separation between news and entertainment must be made.
Fox is purchased. Propaganda.
Maybe we ought to occupy FOX, being they are the voice of corporations.
How could fox news get occupied? We wouldn't want to limit their speech (or that would make us hypocrites) Just expose them, somehow.
Maybe we need a tv and media station too.
Or push for msnbc to have one show debunking fox news, daily.
Even if we could end FLAKESnews, Limbaugh and all the rest tomorrow, we still the after effects to deal with.
I've spoken to people that are hooked on FLAKESnews and they are difficult, to say the least.
I really don't have an issue censoring such blatant, deliberate propaganda masquerading as legitimate news.
Some kind of legal wall of separation between news and entertainment.....is the only way around the free speech concerns.
A better LEGAL definition of news.
Seen the film "Goodnight and Good Luck" about Edward R Murrow? He makes a fabulous speech about this. Brave guy. The level of dialogue back then on TV was pretty shocking. Makes today's news and talk shows seem infantile.
Today's news and talk shows ARE infantile.
Talk shows have an excuse. News? None.
How about a wall of separation between news and entertainment?
Sounds great to me. Corporations that utilize the PUBLIC airwaves have an obligation to THE PUBLIC. When did the fairness doctrine etc. go out of force?
Do I need to mention Reagan and Murdock?
I've also suggested that NO news organization be allowed to trade "shares".
Agree. But please give me the quick summary on Reagan Murdock. I don't know about that.
Reagan put the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine on the fast track, and Murdock bought in, hook line and sinker.
That's the short story.
For more check out Roger Ailes and Dick Armey.
Dammit. I can't believe these same names keep popping up over and over again. As Kurt Vonnegut said of Bush and Cheney, (paraphrasing here), you have to watch out for these psychopathic personalities (PP's). They don't have the gene that keeps them on a moral path. Plus they get up every morning and do TONS of stuff -- so we need to do lots to keep up with them.
Here's the full link to the article about Kurt Vonnegut's last book ("A Man Without a Country") : http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/72-72/6203-are-we-ruled-by-second-string-
The quote is in italics(see middle). It's SUPERB.
Here's my view on the solution: http://occupywallst.org/forum/what-really-pisses-me-off-the-most-is-this/
I totally agree that capitalism needs serious guardrails.
guardrails??? are you kidding??? it needs to go bye bye.
I'm for that if your alternative in net better and has likely chance of acceptance and success. What have you got?
some sort of libertarian socialism/technocratic hybird. i envision 5 branches of federal government: the legislative, executive, judicial, direct democratic, and technocratic. the economic model would be a green open source anarcho-syndical model.
Sounds fascinating. Do you have any links that would bring me and others up to speed on this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Switzerland a base model for the inclusion of direct democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
Thanks for the links. I'll check these out.
..speed limits (profit caps)
So what are your suggested next steps for those who support the Occupy movement?
Occupy needs to get consistent. Their demands are constitutional to have met, they are using their constitutional rights. If they can overtly defend the constitution and see their demands met that way, Americans will loose their attitude that media has created.
BTW, there is a definite psyops running at protests. I heard enough about oakland to know protesting in this enviroment is a LIABILITY if you are not overtly about the rights those in power are sworn to uphold.
It makes the whole event very easy to manipulate when there are no leaders. We have a mass using their rights but bashing the structure that is charged with upholding them instead of succinctly pointing at the failures to follow laws.
The current structure reeks of being designed for self sabotage and division of a people. And, there ain't no accountability from it.
Regarding the 1%: I've heard it said that the best weapon we could use against the, is to demand they follow their own rules. It is almost impossible for them to do so and they will be absolutely stymied by this.
You said: "The American income distribution is like a Detroit V8 firing on one cylinder.... It doesn’t matter how much you step on the gas, only one cylinder is going to fire, we know which cylinder that is." Wow. That is an excellent description. You nailed it.
Thanks.
It's great to be on this forum with you. Cheers.
And you. This is your generations time to step up... we (old farts) will be here to help in any way we can. We know times have changed, this isn't the sixties anymore. Your group embraces technology in a positive way, in ways many of my time will never understand. This is a definite edge.
Well, that may be true about technology giving us an edge, but to me that is only helpful if the core message is clear and heartfelt. Plus we can't just come a this from the perspective of anger. This post from a year ago shows where I'm coming from: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/message-to-all-who-support-occupy-wall-st-heres-ho/
I welcome any and all advice.
I had to laugh out loud:
"The saddest part about the concentration of wealth in this country is that it's most often just stored or used for junk. Granted, the junk of the 1% is bigger, fancier and more long lasting than ours, but the key is that the buzz they get from it quickly fades. So it becomes an addiction just like any other addiction. They're going after the dopamine buzz and it gets harder and harder to get it."
I call them hoarders. Same psychological malfunction as the old lady with 100 cats or the guy who has newspapers and cardboard boxes stacked up to the ceiling around his home. The only difference is that their money allows them to collect more expensive things and keep them in bigger homes... and they often collect homes, just to keep more stuff in.... and cars, art, servants, dollars, etc ad nauseum....
Yes our wealthy brethren are spiritually broken, some of them truly sociopathic. Heal them with love.
Right on. I think that's the only way. Strange but true. :). I know a lot of these folks and you can see the sadness and stress and emptiness in their eyes. Not that the rest of us don't have a different kind of stress. But those who are really chasing stuff (to get at some kind of permanence or immortality perhaps) are feeling so rootless and "center less" that their lostness shines right through their fake superiority. It's a hard thing to watch, someone building what they think are permanent castles of sand.
Re our social contract is broken. Yes.
Will we seek out pols such as these who contend the same in mutual support
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-fY5ZVKxFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Well said. Question, do you agree that these 8 might be a good first step to give us some breathing room? http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/ . Not the end all be all but a good start I think.
Absolutely. The question is though, same question I posed to rayolite... how do you get them to listen?
Think of our reps in Congress are going to vote against their best interests? Same applies to the state legislatures.... they are picked under the same political money/power machine as the feds are. We could write thousands of petitions... but legally they have no value.
You asked how we get them to listen which is certainly THE question. Obviously more detail would need to be filled in but here is what I suggest: direct action. And here's an overview of how it would happen. I think it would take a crowd of about 200,000 which should be entirely doable if the right steps were taken and the message were clear:
TACTICS FOR DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS
We should make the demands below very publicly at a press conference a few days after arriving in DC. When doing so, we should give a clear deadline of 3 days for a firm written commitment with signatures from at least 60% of members of House and 60% of the members of the Senate to pass these bills by the end of the year. If this commitment on the full slate of demands is not met by midnight on the 3rd day (which it won't be) we should be prepared to non-violently block access to all or part of the Capitol complex the next morning by traditional proven non-violent tactics. The purpose is to bring the leaders of the House and Senate to the negotiating table.
NOTE: There are always entrances because there is always a point where people who work there have to leave the public street and enter secure space. We should focus our non-violent direct action and civil disobedience on those entrances no matter where they move them because these are, by definition, always accessible.
I think we need to understand that there is a good kind of tension and we need to create it. Martin Luther King, Jr. described it this way in his "Letter from the Birmingham Jail":
"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."
"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."
Here's the entire "Letter from the Birmingham Jail": http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/dos/mlk/letter.html . It's a treasure and is as timely as ever.
I think the intro to the American people goes something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5kHACjrdEY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
And then you give them this list (adding some detail and a date of course): http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-may-have-seen-this-list-of-8-practical-goals-b/
I'm not in any way suggesting that now is the time for that. Tons of groundwork would need to be laid of course in all sorts of ways.
I agree with you in theory....however, 60% of the house and senate represents an awful lot of constituents. I believe you/we are going to need a whole lot more than 200K people in DC to be taken seriously.
Probably right. What do you think? 800,000? 1,000,000?
From past experience (I'm an old guy) this amount gets attention, but won't get written commitments in 3 days.... it will have to be repeated a few times as well with the same number of people or more. DC has seen large demos before with inaction being the result:
1969 - October 15, Moratorium to End the War in Vietnam. Vietnam Moratorium. 200,000 demonstrate against the Vietnam War.
1969 - November 15, National Mobilization Committee to End the War in Vietnam. Vietnam Moratorium, 600,000 demonstrate against the war in Vietnam.
1970 - May 9, Kent State/Cambodia Incursion Protest. A week after the Kent State shootings, 100,000 demonstrators converged on Washington to protest the shootings and President Richard Nixon's incursion into Cambodia.
1971 - April 24. Vietnam War Out Now rally. 500,000 call for end to Vietnam War.
1981 - September 19, Solidarity Day march. AFL-CIO organized march to protest Reagan Administration labor and domestic policies; 260,000 march.
1987 - October 11, Second National March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights. The second such march on Washington drew 500,000 gay men and women to protest for equal civil rights and to demand government action in the fight against AIDS.
1995 - October 16, Million Man March. United States Park Police officially estimated the crowd size at 1,700,000.
Just some highlights.
That's a great list. And I think you're absolutely right about needing repetition and mass numbers. I believe that circumstances may help lift these protests (more and more Americans suffering and realizing that the game is rigged), but your point is well taken. After all, one would have thought that with all the people who knew friends and family members dying in Vietnam, 400,000, 600,000 would have turned administration around. But it took years. I think that's important to keep in mind.
But we have to start somewhere of course. I thought this might be a pretty good place to start.
Thanks again for this excellent and eye opening list, you and yours sure did rise to the occasion!
I was fortunate enough to spend an evening playing pool with Abbey Hoffman in the Reagan 80's. He was a good hearted man with a fun loving provocative spirit which was worn but intact. At the time he was fighting against the diversion of the Delaware river. I will never forget that night and all he taught me about making this fun :). And provocative :)
I particularly remember the May 4, 1970 antiwar protests. Every major university across the country held marches on the same weekend. I was up at SUNY@Plattsburgh at the time and participated up there.
Yes, keep in mind the long haul. Peace.
Thanks geo. Much appreciated and I will try to keep those wise words in mind.. peace! And thanks for all you did and are doing! I'm trying to picture what it must have felt like to have all those schools axross the country marching on the same day. Great energy and comraderie and spirit. So cool, despite the tragic circumstances that gave rise to the marches. I'm sure incredible bonds were made from those activities. I can only imagine the electricity in the air, people with open hearts.
You already know what its like, this will grow. Tools exist today to plan and inform that we couldn't dream about. I have high hopes for success.
I can't support Art V, but I like the various goals you've mentioned. There are other ways we can approach accomplishing these things.
Are you willing to consider other approaches.
Good luck in your good efforts.
Approaches that use legal process for final effect make sense. What other approach is there other than Article V which can gain the authority to have the needed effect?
Your way is the only way?
I understand.
Good luck in all your good efforts.
My way is not the only way, I've opened this to suggestions that invoke legal process so authority has a DUTY to act.
I won't waste my and others time with less.
I understand, Wouldn't want any time wasting.
I've looked at NYState at length and I see no chance of getting the legislature to convene or support a constitutional convention.
It would be a 'waste of yours and others time' to pursue NY State.
Any news on the other 49 states?
Since it is citizens that rightfully are the masters of the congress and courts" (Lincoln 1859), states do not matter, only citizens matter at this point.
Citizens and their ability to understand constitutional intent then discuss it and unify around it, is what matters. Later they can figure out how to unify in their states to compel legislations towards Article V within its dominant legal process.
NY state is really controlled by many unconstitutional factions. In fact I learned that the 9-11 truth movement there is so controlled that a state ballot initiative was sabotaged and no one even noticed. Read this.
http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-nyccan.html
The same attorney that filed the first civil suit against gwb wrote the petition and FORGOT to observe the constitutional rights of people that were subpoenaed for the investigation the petition sought state for the state vote.
But we do need to get 2/3 of state legislatures to support/request a constitutional convention, so....
Any news on the other 49 states?
Since it is citizens that rightfully are the masters of the congress and courts" (Lincoln 1859), states do not matter, only citizens matter at this point.
Citizens and their ability to understand constitutional intent then discuss it and unify around it, is what matters. Later they can figure out how to unify in their states to compel legislations towards Article V within its dominant legal process.
NY state is really controlled by many unconstitutional factions. In fact I learned that the 9-11 truth movement there is so controlled that a state ballot initiative was sabotaged and no one even noticed. Read this.
http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-nyccan.html
The same attorney that filed the first civil suit against gwb wrote the petition and FORGOT to observe the constitutional rights of people that were subpoenaed for the investigation the petition sought state for the state vote.
Since you repeated yourself I suppose you want me to do the same?
But we do need to get 2/3 of state legislatures to support/request a constitutional convention, so....
Any news on the other 49 states?
Actually citizens only need to be informed of what has happened. There is a valid criminal complaint against all members of congress. It was forwarded to the justice DEPT by holder, passing the buck.
http://my.firedoglake.com/danielmarks/2012/02/18/congress-refuses-to-call-a-convention-to-amend/
2/3 of the states applied in 1911. Bill Walker shows that congress has been intentionally misinterpreting Article V, they also haven't been counting applications over the years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7qIQ1VkEg
It is the citizens ignorance because of the abridging of free speech and freedom of the press, or citizens refusal to examine, understand then share which will cost us our rights and freedoms. Generally I see that social structures with their beliefs have far more influence on people than facts or reason.
For that reason this is not about how many states support an Article V. This is how many people care enough about their rights and freedoms to participate in defining constitutional intent so we might act as the masters of the congress and the courts as Lincoln said we are.
So we do not have to get 2/3 states to apply for a constitutional convention. I thought you said that was the path.
Ok so what do we have to do? Ask congress/DOJ to recognize/convene the Art V convention?
How do we "participate in defining constitutional intent"?
Great focus on comments! SERIOUSLY, thank you.
VQkag2 wrote: "So we do not have to get 2/3 states to apply for a constitutional convention. I thought you said that was the path."
It is, but we do not have a lawful government. The complaint to the AG shows he cannot or will not enforce the law. Is, and IF we use free speech very well, that would PROVE we are the masters with great certainty. That's really the best.
However, there is a massive effort by the infiltrators in misleading a generation or 2. Such is why un abridging free speech needs to go into overdrive and the discussion you've initiated with your comment/questions have shifted into a contextual basis of something having enough dynamic to show constitutional intent and how it manifests socially in the legal processes of law. This infiltration is advanced and has occurred in an environment of deprival of information about human behavior in group social structures which historically generate the basic intent the constitution represents on a fundamental level. That sentence will mean more later.
VQkag2 wrote: "Ok so what do we have to do? Ask congress/DOJ to recognize/convene the Art V convention?"
Yes. Occupy congress with a petition observing the Walker suit, the Guise complaint and some serious examples of violations of law by congress. That's the paper part entering the mechanism of the "system". What happens on the ground at occupy is completely different and is the foundation for the full lawfulness rightfully asserted within constitutional intent.
VQkag2 wrote: "How do we "participate in defining constitutional intent"?"
The simplest form of definition begins with a respect for the greatest meanings that speech can have, which is the intent originating the right. Information needed for survival must be shared and understood to enable life. The dumbing down executed by global foundations on American educational materials which started in 1912 (one year after 2/3 of the states applied for Article V) assures information needed for survival, in the particular condition planned, would not be understood. An earlier removal of writings of the framers and their interactions with Indigenous tribes/nations prevents us from knowing a very simple definition of the greater meaning of free speech and how it works in human psychology invoking the BEST instincts for adaptations. Through speech and understanding can be made between people. That understanding can create; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
The preceding is the basic protestors theme. There is protest that speech cannot have those means so all forms of unconstitutional things are happening. Congress is violating the constitution, their oaths and the law. We need our speech to have meaning. To assure that is ROBUST, we demand Article V immediately!
This is a constitutional agenda without out compromise.
Preparatory Amendment. 1)End the abridging of free speech 2)Campaign finance reform 3)Secure the vote
Anyone criticizing this strategy, approach, action is requested to produce some support from a very important part of society. Or, show;
which mother or father in this nation will ignore or pass up the real opportunity to assure their child will grow into a nation that holds high and honors understanding that can create; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting their life, their liberty and their pursuit of happiness?
If you understand this, consider making a thread about it. Consider how it completely separates the human beings from the political structures that mislead.
Any official can be properly challenged at any time to accept these definitions AND, if they do not, and cannot reason that the law of the land with, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness & the 1st amendment show constitutional intent properly expressed through the preparatory amendments, they can be deemed unconstitutional and unfit for office.
They cannot possibly, consistently, make decisions that respect constitutional rights and are the problem.
Great. can you specify an action you would encourage us to partake in a short direct statement?
Thx
Actually we are doing it. But more overtly is what is needed. Which is why I asked you to make a thread about the responses to your comment and answers to questions.
However, this needs to begin in the right place with the right impacts/imagery, and then hopefully, it is understood and expands. The following is an effort to define the real social challenge we are faced with coming from this discussion related to a specific action making direct statement.
Proper context for the agreement expanding is needed, which is why I appreciate your comments and questions so greatly. They enable describing that very special strategy which separates human beings from the political structures that manipulate them.
Separated they are free to agree and define the basis of the authority of many of those structures, political or not. By defining that authority with overt reference to constitutional intent to be used at Article V, the law of the land is invoked.
We are at that chicken-egg situation that occurs when free speech is abridged in the specific ways we experience. Only a very different, exclusive behavior joined in by a constantly expanding group, always carrying the same message, can hope to be noticed, then perhaps understood. When that happens, the expansion occurs.
So we are at a point where you ask for a specific action in direct statement. And, I'm saying this is how it begins then changes to something more and more substantial.
As much as I would like to effectively say, "occupiers, go out and show Americans how well you know how the intent of the constitution supports your survival and adaptation with free speech and how it does so", that statement has no way to reach them. Accordingly here are some suggestions for direct statement that can be perceived by a meaningful number here.
Firstly, it needs to be understood that these are basically emergency conditions in a sociological sense. For that reason, slightly more extreme social measures are needed to distinguish the agreement being made, to show that it absolutely deserves respect IF a person is a reasonable cognitive survivor capable of operating with others comprehensively to our social situation and governmental condition.
The "different exclusive behavior" can be indicated by our expression of contempt for anything which does not directly serve OUR RIGHT TO ALTER OR ABOLISH and enable focus upon it. The discussion on the human social need/function/right to and for free speech and how the constitution supports it, the basis of demand for 1) of the preparatory amendments. It might be appropriate to assimilate an affect rejecting all political discussion that is not focused in the areas of alter or abolish and free speech. To assimilate a position that pre supposes the total inability of any criticizing this strategy to produce even one mother or father that would reject real opportunity through Article V to assure the function of free speech for their children, then berate and dismiss them UNTIL they get over the miserable conditioning that disables them from knowing constitutional intent LET ALONE constitutional defense.
This is about the premise of a specific action in direct statement which is social, spiritual and intellectual as well as constitutional which stands a chance of expansion. One good way to measure that would be with a planned series of online petititons each having a limited period, and signatories are asked to return a number of times and show again their understanding and support.
In theory, the number of petitions and possible thresholds they demonstrate could be determined here and now and started with only a few people participating in a thread for that purpose.
Thanks