Forum Post: I saw Bill Moyers interview Lawrence Lessig.
Posted 10 years ago on June 22, 2013, 9:11 p.m. EST by bensdad
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I don’t think anyone would disagree with Lessig’s economic-political expertise – certainly at the peak with Lawrence O’Donnell, Tom Hartmann, and Jim Hightower and Kieth Olbermann. One of his key issues is the corrupting influence of money on our political system – capitalism controls democracy.
Most of the advocates for resolving this favor a constitutional amendment ( especially the new HJR29) that has a combination of overturning the SCOTUS decisions - that money is speech (Buckley) and corporations are people (Citizens United). The biggest roadblock to this solution ( beyond the corporatist obstructionists ) is the numbers – an amendment requires 2/3 of the House & Senate & ¾ of the state legislatures. The advantages of the amendment approach is the vast EXISTING support at the citizen level, the local level, the state level, and the federal level.
See ows site: http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
for 40+ documents and 70+ videos.
Lessig addresses the amendment approach problem by proposing – in an extraordinarily complex plan ( that is only introduced on Moyers ) – by ordinary federal legislation that would give every citizen a $50 voucher to give to candidates who refuse any other kind of funding. The downside to his plan is not only the almost inscrutable nature of the plan’s details, but the fact nothing like this has been proposed in any legislature. Like so many ideas put forward by the brightest of us – they can work on paper and not in reality.
This episode?
Full Show: Big Brother’s Prying Eyes
Right, because courts do not function constitutionally.
"One of his key issues is the corrupting influence of money on our political system – capitalism controls democracy."
If courts did, then any unconstitutional control over democracy could be stopped by one legal action.
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Our employers determine where we work, when we work and how much we will be paid
to believe that money only dictates our government is neive
I saw that, too. The first part of it was to mimic the right and use the 401(c)(4) and build up what I would call a Peoples' Lobby. Be bigger and stronger and more influential than the others, and insist that only candidates who will listen to the voice of the people will get their support. In other words, fight money with money. If enough people contribute -- including some very rich ones, which there are 1%ers who are not greedy -- it could conceivably turn the entire congress around in a few election cycles. Next question: where the hell are the candidates to put up?
I see the 501c4 issue differently - the 501c4 LAW forbids ANY political activity -
The IRS - under Eisenhower - illegally re-wrote the LAW to allow some political activity
I understand that; actually, I'm not even sure it would be necessary for his idea to work -- a transparent non-profit political group whose donors are public would probably make such a group more powerful and acceptable to the people, who want openness.
I used to be excited about Larry's message, but this very web site is what disillusioned me. Take a look at the hopelessly partisan comments on this thread to see what I mean:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/common-ground-one-way-forward-there-should-be-no-c/
It already started in this thread, with the guy who sees it as "mimicking the right". The masses are just not capable of the kind of thinking necessary for it to work. People are too focused on picking a team and rallying behind that team's flag, to be able to fight together for the good of the country. America deserves what it gets, which is intractable government corruption. The partisans perpetuate it.
FYI- virtually all amendment supporters are progressives & D, but if you look deeper, there are a small number of Rs who co-signed one of the amendments.
IMHO- we will never convince the tp or the far right to join this effort.
We need to address & educate the voters who are in the middle - who want something to change - to vote for progressives who support the 99%
OWS: http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com
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I remember the thread from your link. I was alterorabolish1 in that thread and you're correct that even today, some that post here still cling to the hope that we simply need to elect more dems and our problems will be solved. Methinks you're wrong about shadz being part of that.
Loving Democrats, hating Republicans, what's the difference? The very first thing that s/he did was dismiss my message because of the "R" on my voter registration card.
BTW, this really is irrelevant, but the reason that I originally registered Republican was that when I registered for the first time when I was 18, the Clinton Administration was fighting tooth-and-nail to mandate the Clipper Chip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip. I actually ended up voting Democrat every year since 2012, when I just couldn't vote for Obama a second time in good conscience so I didn't vote at all.
I read the entire thread. The poster, "April", described helplessness because she felt dems were better than repubs but those were the only political options.
I "wasted" my vote in 2012 voting for Jill Stein. Some here are still at the level where they feel that is helping repubs, and don't realize it's designed like that intentionally.
As long as people are more focused on helping Republicans or Democrats instead of helping our country, the political corruption will be intractable. That's my point here, and the people foaming at the mouth with Republican hate in this thread are just comedy at this point.
That would be almost believable. The kicker is that you can denounce Republicans and Democrats but that does not excuse failure to pay attention to legislation, those that sponsor them, the reasons behind them and who will profit.
I'm not denouncing any party. I agree with Larry in denouncing the system that selects our political leaders based on how much money they can raise, which makes our political leaders beholden to their financiers instead of their constituents.
But is it possible to change that system? If you agree with the premise that it isn't possible for either the left or the right to change the system unilaterally, then no, it isn't possible.
Section. 8.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
How many questions can you pull out of the above section of the Constitution for one candidate for congress? How many questions can you pull out of the above section of the Constitution for a debate between candidates?
Seriously.
The powers of Congress are not the problem. The problem is that you can't get to Congress without raising huge sums of money. Which means that the people with all of the powers that you just listed have obligations to the people who funded their campaigns so that they could get to Congress. It's actually pretty simple.
This is simple, Tech. I promise. Can you answer the questions?
What questions? How many questions I can come up with? Uhhh... 37! I'm hoping that you have a point?
Great. Lets hear a few questions.
I'm 100% convinced that you didn't understand a word that I've posted here tonight. I doubt that you bothered to read any of them.
Good night.
[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3030) from Miami Beach, FL 0 minutes ago
You don't even know what we have been talking about! Read Larry's pamphlet, "One Way Forward", if you want to learn more. But of course you don't. What a waste of time. I remember now why I stopped posting here months ago. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
I do not know anyone that does not support move to amend/HJR29 or any other proposals (via legislation) that have come forward with the same goals. It is, as you said, that both sides agree it is an issue. It isn't that it is so bipartisan that it can't be accomplished. In fact, campaign finance reform is being attacked from every angle by the people and a few elected officials.
But, I'm going to tell you how they get in the door. You can't formulate questions out of Article 1 Section 8.
You have nothing like, "What is your interpretation of the commerce clause?" Nothing on the copyright clause? Tax and spend?
The money in politics damn sure knows that question and the "right" answer. I told you guys this year before last. You're going to need to ask better questions. In fact, you're going to need to make that sexy.
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Surprise surprise - you say you can ask a bunch of questions - but when GF asks like what? - You bail and tell her good night. Par for the course for you ain't it.
Everyone would appreciate it if you continued - not commenting - shill.
Again, I'm a shill for non-partisanship? Can you even READ? I spent all night arguing AGAINST partisanship, and arguing for bipartisan cooperation. And my larger point was that it isn't possible because of people like you. You don't even know that, do you? You are making me so sad. WTF?
Sweet. You don't know how.
You don't even know what we have been talking about! Read Larry's pamphlet, "One Way Forward", if you want to learn more. But of course you don't. What a waste of time. I remember now why I stopped posting here months ago.
It had best be simple - as junkie is really messed up - that is unless you take into account that it is "simply" a shill.
If you actually still think that I'm pushing the Republican Party platform then you are a hilarious and very sad illustration of my point about partisanship. Just pathetic. There is no hope for our country. You're making me so sad for our nation's future. Wow.
Just to clue you in: my whole message here has been to push for bartisan cooperation to enact campaign finance reform in order to eliminate the political corruption that naturally stems from our politicians raising campaign funds from private donors. Like Monsanto, for example, and natural gas companies that extract their product through cracking, and the defense industry.
I seriously think that you aren't even aware that I've been preaching for bipartisan cooperation, because you saw the word "Republican" and started foaming at the mouth. Trying to lead somebody like you toward something larger than the left-versus-right dichotomy is like trying to get a dog to watch television. I keep pointing, and you keep looking at my finger. You are seriously making me so sad.
And somebody made you a MODERATOR on this site? Seriously? You're the best thing that this site could find!?! A person who doesn't even recognize the irony in responding to the guy calling for bipartisan cooperation with blind partisanship? How does it dumb down the overall debate around here to have somebody like you moderating the conversation? This is exactly why I gave up on Occupy months ago and stopped posting. Pathetic. So sad.
BuBye waste of time BuBye.
Hopeless. Larry's ideas about the left and the right coming together to work for the greater good of our country are just hopeless. Participating on this site is the antidote for the kind of breathless, idealistic optimism that you naturally get from reading his work. I need to point him here so that he can see the sad reality for himself. Unbelievable.
BuBye waste of time BuBye.
Go somewhere else to defend your repubs - ummm corp(se)oRATists in office.
TechJunkie agrees with Occupy philosophy. You don't.
Occupy is about bringing the left and right together over common ground, about building the 99%. You don't support this basic tenet, that's why you keep attacking people here. Not only is that divisive in itself, but you also denigrate right wingers with your attacks.
TechJunkie seems young, vibrant, and energetic. You seem old and senile.
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I have ahunch that you are not new here. I have ahunch that you have probably been booted - probably more then once. I have ahunch that you are full of shit. I have ahunch that you will not B here long under this identity.
How about teathuglicans? Tea Tolers? TP still stands for toilet paper?
You mean like rethuglicans and repelicans and libertopians?
I'm not a guy, nor did I intend for my comment to be divisive -- I guess I should have said a tactic used by another group before that seemed successful. I apologize for the contrary shorthand of left and right. Anyway, did you ever check out this:
http://createyourownreality-parksview.blogspot.com/
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You're a 'fully fessed Republican' voter so that seems more than just a li'l rich !!! A declared partisan exalts 'non partisan' !! What's wrong with THAT picture ?! See the light and come on over to The 99% perhaps after fully considering the implications of :
http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-united-states-of-alec-a-follow-up/ & also consider :
http://truth-out.org/news/item/16960-speed-power-and-the-physics-of-finance-capitalism !!!
e tenebris, lux ...
Yeah you're proving my point, thanks. All registered Republicans are fervent partisans, even ones who spend months trying to preach a message of non-partisan cooperation? Sure okay whatever. People like you perpetuate government corruption, because you're too focused on partisanship to even consider working together with people who don't necessarily agree with you on everything, for the good of the country. The masses deserve the corruption that they're stuck with and you're an illustration of why that is.
Larry is a really smart guy who means well, but he just doesn't get that people are incapable of the kind of thinking that would be required to implement any of his ideas.
''People like'' me ?!!! You mean people outside the Dem/Rep duopoly, faux democracy, tweedledumb & tweedledumber complex ?!! Politics ain't just a Right Of Centre 'zero sum game' TJ, geddit ?! I am more interested in Bill Moyers' 'pov' than Larry's, so please do try to give the 'BM' link abv. a go & Viva OWS !
fiat lux ...
My point all along has been that politics is not a zero-sum game, and that both sides need to work together for the common good. For the good of our country.
By failing to recognize that and lambasting me for the letter on my voter registration card, you're proving my point that it's never going to happen. Obviously you didn't read the post of mine that I linked to above, but you did manage to identify me as a registered Republican and therefore the enemy. Which was exactly my point here, so thanks for illustrating that.
Larry means well but he just overestimates what the average American is capable of. Most people can't look beyond which sports team's flag they rally behind. They can't think in bigger terms than that. And that's why the corruption in our government will never go away.
Dude, have you been to Washington DC, to their parties, and the stupid Group Think they give to Freshmen and New Administrations.
They have a tradition in Washington DC of starting a new administration with courtesy and a clean slate. So all the New Powers from George W. Bush passed to a democrat. No one asked for investigation of the Bush Admin including the domestic spying, torture, and loss of Individual Rights... Not to mention going to war Spending $1Trillion in Direct Costs & $1Trillion in indirect costs for the War in Iraq on obvious lies pushed down from Cheney/Bush.
So now you have created a monster, you Republicans. You get democratic Presidents with huge new powers. but you don't care do you? you are getting you salary, bonus, government contracts, or big government jobs somewhere in the system. You are in the money.
What do you say to the fact that both parties are enabling the corrupting in the Federal Reserve, Big Wall Street Banks, the Federal budget, Fraud at Ratings Agencies, Fraud at major Accounting firms, Price Fixing for LIBOR, USBFix, Gold Futures, Silver Futures, and the whole Fraudulent Secondary market for Subprime mortgages and Derivatives.
How does it feel that US Financial paper is looked at as Fraudulent on the Global Market since the 2008 Financial Crisis. American Finance has a black eye that cant be fixed. The US Reputation as a Peaceful nation is gone since the Iraqi War. You have no idea what it is like in war.... You don't know what it is like to lose an economy, your industry, your family business, your family homes, your family legacy. But when the BS wears off about the US Economy you might wonder why you didn't fight for conservative business practices and conservative politics and rules about conflicts of interest in government and the Court Systems.
Obviously you never went to Business School. So, you are ignorant. But you are successful enough by being a Republican that you can start fighting for conservative accounting rules and other business practices. Come on, dude. Start to pay back the nation that has been good to you. Don't be a "Yes Man".
Wow. Yet another partisan who can only see a "Republican", not a potential ally against government corruption. Obviously the idea of both sides working together toward the common good is a pipe dream.
How many more people are going to show up and treat me like the enemy to prove my point? This site is just amazing. Poor, idealistic Larry, overestimating the average American.
Older and Wiser than you my young friend. I will embrace you as my brother if you just call yourself a conservative not a republican.
Of course I have to apologize if I seem one sided. I have only lived one life. Have you lived more than one life? My life was restricted to only one industry and therefore only one type of Republican. But it seems like a very powerful Industry.
So, okay. Let's be bipartisan. Let's start with the NSA Spying or the IRS Harassment. Clearly Eric Hold Must Resign. I want Mueller out of there too since he has been there 12 years. I want Bernanke gone since he is just a corrupt tool. I also want Tim Geithner gone.
I want to clean house. Is that conservative?
My point here in calling Larry's ideas naive is that the average American can't even begin to consider working with someone else on politics unless the other person agrees with them on a laundry list of political positions. We only need to agree on one thing: it is a corrupting influence on our government for our political leaders to be selected based on how much money they can raise. Both "sides" are one side in that regard, because neither side can advance its agenda in the current environment of political corruption. Larry explained it better than I ever could, and I highly suggest taking a look at some of the quotes from his book "One Way Forward" that I posted in the thread linked above. Better yet, read his book, it's just a pamphlet, and it could change your outlook forever.
But do I have faith that enough Americans could be persuaded to come around to the kind of cooperative thinking necessary to end political corruption by changing how our elections are financed? Definitely not. See the comments in this thread and the One Way Forward thread for why. It's hopeless. Americans are not big enough to rise to the challenge. Larry is hopelessly, naively idealistic.
Saw a Venn Diagram that looked very simplistic on your link.
The hall mark of the Propagandist is to propose simple phrases and simple ideas as solutions. Life is not simple. Issues are not black and white. We can propose a bipartisan solution... only to have it Hijacked by Lobbyist who put in loop holes or statements that change the law right before congress votes on it.
The powers that be know that their Lawyers, Lobbyists, Bankers, Financial Managers, Economists, Experts, and Prostitutes can come in at the last moment to change what ever we come up with.
How will you deal with that??
The System is captured, we have revolving doors to industry, even the media is captured as people want to keep their jobs.
We have Rome, Corrupt Rome now in the USA. How do you deal with it?? How can your tradition of starting a new administration with forgiveness and courtesy deal with a US Political and all business systems that have been captured by Industry, Lobbyist and PACs.
I know you are not Naïve. You must have some ideas. Just let us know how you can stop Lobbyist from changing the new laws at the last moment before congress votes.???
Well, sorry. I'm not really sure I can click on internet links without getting some kind of bug.
If I created a Venn Diagram of the problem there would be more than 6 different circles involved.
Why do you ask for ideas when the System is already captured? Revolving doors to industry, even the media is captured. Lobbyists changing laws at the last moment before congress votes.
Complexity breeds fraud. We must start over with simple ideals, especially abolishing the influence of money in politics. The gray issues will be more complicated but they can wait.
Yes. Simple principals and conservative ideas. Simple languages in our laws, so that Americans stay out of jail and don't have to pay fines. Simple Tax Rules for the same reason.
If it is important, then keep it simple.
Reduce relationships with government officials and government regulators... to industry, to lobbyist, to the people they regulate.
Monitor off shore bank accounts for the wealthy, powerful, government employees... look for trust funds set up by corporations or wealthy interests that might be a payoff.
Conservative Business, Political, and Court Rules... to include accounting, and ratings agencies. Streamline Financial Derivatives and Regulate them. Don't allow a Private banking system to exist as the risk is not going to be transparent.
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Maybe you should read Larry's book. His point is that both sides can agree that it's a corrupting influence on our government for our leaders to be elected based on how much money they can raise, because that makes our political leaders beholden to their financiers instead of their constituents. Which cuts to the heart of everything that you just said.
The sad part is that changing that system requires bipartisan cooperation. Which as you can see from this thread, s just not possible. We're stuck with our system as it is, corruption and all. Because changing the way that our campaigns are financed is just too difficult for us to accomplish. Because we can't look beyond partisanship to work together.
You might be right. I'll look around for it. I don't mean to make an ass out of myself and not having looked at the book.
What are the conditions or Cultural Cues that lead us to partisian positions... or to become polarized. You know in the military they have a training segment on Polarization and how that is bad for a Unit.
Seems to me that the Creel Commision would use the concept of Polarization to divide a people and control a people's opinion. Well Madison Avenue would also use this to benefit the Politicians. The whole Public Relations Industry is all about Outcomes, right. We want to sell a war. We want to sell an investigation. We want to sell a solution. We want to take away privacy and individual rights, so how do we sell it. And the military takes a mission or a task.... how do we get a desired outcome, what strategies can we implement???
People are in control of the USA and all Industries. The economy is doing what people in control want. Wages are falling and pensions are disappearing by design...
But neither Democrats or Republicans are doing anything to fix the big problems. The system is fixed.
It aint going to change voting democrat or in any general election.
You forget an important facet of the rotten system, the ability to put blame on the other side.
Yep... I'm sure there is a lot more I missed. Divide and Conquer.
But it is a system of systems. And the more systems the more risk and the more complexity. many systems, many players, many interest groups, many lobbyist, many wealthy connected Icons, and many careerist or employees that want to stay in the game and move up for bigger bonuses and bigger wages.
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The republican party ( those in office ) really does not exist anymore - it should be called the corp(se)oRATist party for all real intents/purposes right now. That is why republicans ( now former ) are leaving the party in droves and are registering as independent.
Yes, right, you. You're who I'm talking about. Yet another person shows up to prove my point for me. You hate Republicans more than you love our country. You're the reason that Larry's ideas are impossible.
Blow it out your ass junky - you know - as you normally do anyway.
Do you think that Larry's idea is realistic?
More to the point, do you think that opposing government corruption is solely the domain of the Democratic Party? Do you think that Democrats can do it alone?
Nope - and I never said they could. It will take pretty much every citizen of the USA to reclaim a government of the people.
What I did say: The republican party ( those in office ) really does not exist anymore - it should be called the corp(se)oRATist party for all real intents/purposes right now. That is why republicans ( now former ) are leaving the party in droves and are registering as independent.
As currently there is no republican party.
Comprende?
Yes, I comprehend that you are your own worst enemy, if you realize that the left can't do it alone but you talk like that about your fellow Americans who could be your allies.
Hopeless. You and the other posters to this thread are proof. Americans are too weak to accompolish real change.
U R blind def and dumb - "if" - you believe that there is a republican party anymore. There are people who believe in the ideals that originally formed the republican party - But The Party Itself For ALL intents and Purposes Does NOT EXist At This Point In Time. 4 U 2 deny that - and say that the majority of those in office ( state and Fed ) R not owned by the corp(se)oRATions is not just naive - it is a blatant lie. Those who have left the party and continue to leave are aware of these truths.
So - Like I said Before - BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS
The republican party still exists and the irony is the democratic party would do anything to make sure the republicans continue to exist.
Really??? x2
It's really amusing to see you get red in the face to disparage Republicans, even though you know that my point is ... Yeah whatever never mind, I think it's beyomd you. You actually think that you're arguing agains the Republican Party platform right now and you don't even see the irony in what you're doing. This is such a waste of time. Larry's ideas are hopeless. Obviously.
What??? You see anything good in what the corp(se)oRATists ( um I mean republicans ) in office are doing right now? What??? What good R they doing??? What???
You're too funny, you're completely oblivious that you're proving my point that the masses are too partisan to even consider working together for the greater good. You don't even realize that's what I've been saying, because the word "Republican" was a bright, shiny object that made you start foaming at the mouth. You are the reason for the perpetuation of government corruption, and you don't realize it, even though I'm pointing it out clearly as day.
TJ, don't you realize the prevailing opinion of the Nazis that try to control this site is: anyone that claims dems and reps are the same is a republican shill?
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Go away shithead - you have done nothing but serve up crap from your very 1st day - on the forum I mean - your parents could verify for prior behavior.
Dickhead. There is no republican party. Not at this point in time. That is why people who "used" to identify as republican have now left the party and registered independent or other.
Why are you so obsessed with that, when you know by now that my point is that obsession with that is what makes it impossible for us to work together to eliminate political corruption in our country? Or do you not realize that, and you think that you're debating the Republican Party platform with me? Could you seriously be such a perfect illustration of my point here?
Go away blatantly obvious SHILL.
A shill for centrism? For working together for the common good? Yes, I confess. Handcuff me and haul me away...