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Forum Post: I ask again, are people being so oppressed in the United States that we need to "Occupy"?

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 2:28 p.m. EST by thomasmiller (163)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I will be honest. Its been tough for me these last few years since 2007 in a lot of ways. However, I have adapted and overcome. I have worked through it. All still is not right, but I am at least comfortable and have money coming in each week.

Some of you here feel the government or corporations need to step in and help you out...help you find work and send money to you. Please understand that no one is under any obligation to send you anything. The only person to blame for your situation is yourself. The fact is that you should know the economy goes up and down in waves. Every 5-7 years there is a recession and you wont always be employed.

So what did the United States do to you? What did corporations do to you? How have they oppressed you? When I look back at my life, I see all the bad things that have happened as a result of my own decision making and I take full responsibility for those decisions. Obama has made it fashionable to blame others. Please do not fall into this trap of pushing the blame upon others. Its ignorant, its unbecoming...take the attitude that the buck stops here.

So why Occupy? Why take this stance? The government isnt committing genocide. Although I dont like Obama, I do not believe he is a petty tyrant. He has not ruled America for 20 years.

When elections come around, then that is your chance. If you had a leader then you could form a political party. Think about it. Is it worth Occupying to the point where people are getting hurt, killed and lives being destroyed? To me, thats not worth it. If Hitler was the President, then sure it might be worth it, but its not worth it for whats going on today.

Occupy Wall Street will not make America better. It will not solve any problems. It will, however, create problems...

106 Comments

106 Comments


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[-] 7 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

thomasmiller......You show your total ignorance of what has happened. We are not asking for the corporations to be obligated for anything......We are demanding that they don't lie steal and cheat the American People......We are demanding that they release control of our Government and Supreme court........We are demanding that they face criminal prosecution for the Recession caused by their illegal schemes and out right stealing.........We are demanding that they be prosecuted for switching Mortgages at closing with high interest balloon payments after a year........We are demanding Justice....

[-] 0 points by bravo91 (12) 12 years ago

i dont agree with the idiots that got mortages on houses they could never afford on low salaries. that's their fault. they obviously calculated their reward before the risk, or even before thinking about it.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

bravo91.....Your the 3rd person today that I've had to school................FBI...Key Findings

Mortgage fraud continued to be an escalating problem in the United States during 2008. Although no central repository exists for collecting mortgage fraud complaints, virtually all law enforcement and industry statistics indicated an upswing in mortgage fraud activity. SAR mortgage fraud filings from financial institutions increased 36 percent to 63,713 during Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 compared to 46,717 filings in FY2007. The total dollar loss attriSbuted to mortgage fraud is unknown; however, at least 63 percent (1,035) of all pending FBI mortgage fraud investigations during FY2008 involved dollar losses totaling more than $1 million.

A decrease in loan originations and an increase in defaults and foreclosures continued to dominate the downward trend in the housing market in 2008. While the amount of mortgage fraud cannot be precisely determined, industry experts agree that there is a direct correlation between fraud and distressed real estate markets. As the housing market continued to decline in response to an increase in housing inventories, lack of sales, and new foreclosures surface, to include a wave of Alt-A and Option ARM loans due to reset beginning in April 2009, real estate values softened, and fraud reporting increased throughout 2008.

Analysis of available law enforcement and industry information indicates the top states for mortgage fraud during 2008 were California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Arizona, Texas, Maryland, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Colorado, Nevada, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and the District of Columbia. Rhode Island , Massachusetts , Pennsylvania , and the District of Columbia were new to the list in 2008, replacing Utah , Indiana , Tennessee and Connecticut from 2007.

The downward trend in the housing market during 2008 provided a favorable climate for mortgage fraud schemes to proliferate. Several of these schemes have the potential to spread if the current economic downward trend, as expected, continues into 2009 and beyond. Increases in foreclosures, declining housing prices, and decreased demand place pressure on lenders, builders, and home sellers. These and other market participants are perpetuating and modifying old schemes, including property flipping, builder-bailouts, short sales, and foreclosure rescues. Additionally, they are facilitating new schemes, including reverse mortgage fraud, credit enhancements, condo conversion, loan modifications, and pump and pay in response to tighter lending practices............................................................................Mortgage fraud provides perpetrators, including mortgage brokers, lenders, appraisers, underwriters, accountants, real estate agents, settlement attorneys, land developers, investors, builders, bank account representatives, trust account representatives, investment banks, and credit rating agencies with a criminal activity which is relatively low-risk with high-yield returns. Rising housing prices and exotic financial instruments, including teaser-rate adjustable rate mortgages, low or zero-equity loans, and sub-prime loans allow them to shift the risk to others.1 Despite increased scrutiny, many industry insiders will perpetrate fraud to maintain or increase their current standard of living. In addition to traditional industry conspirators, there have been instances involving various organized criminal groups and gang members involved in mortgage fraud activity...................................If you need any more schooling please let me know......

[-] 1 points by occupeepee (3) 12 years ago

...Or they don't assume that the entire system is going to change overnight so that banks suddenly start giving out loans to people they know cannot afford them. Nor do they assume that the interest rates will skyrocket just as soon as they're able. You're defending the misleading salesperson by blaming the people who lost their homes on account of their trust in what they were presented with. You're defending the scalper selling fake tickets outside the ballpark, the guy screwing people out of their money by selling shitty products on good faith, alone. You're advocating the proposition that the American people need to be cautious of every corner, worried somebody is out to screw them, rather than knowing the government is going to defend truth and justice. Your stance is a calloused one, and part of the reason so many have taken to the streets.

[-] 1 points by bravo91 (12) 12 years ago

everyone should always be more cautious especially in these times. trust and faith, man if i had a penny for every time people based their actions or judgements on that then id be buying the whole debt the country is in

whos the idiot thats buying fake tickets and shitty products?

its called education get one, inform yourself. stop being so ignorant and placing the blame on others just because you got screwed over. your as much to blame as they are.

i stand for the people that honestly are supporting the cause, the blue collar worker who is going back to get an education at a tech school, or the grad student who sends resume on a routine basis. what i don't stand up for are the kids crying over loans, students half assing job searching, or people who want free handouts because they think the country suddenly owes them one when the economy goes to shit

[-] -1 points by TimMcGraw (50) 12 years ago

you're acting like the banks forced people to take out big loans that they couldn't repay.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

TimmMcGraw.....Please educate yourself before posting.................Bank of America is on the hook for 500 billion and criminal charges for Mortgage fraud........FBI.... .Key Findings

Mortgage fraud continued to be an escalating problem in the United States during 2008. Although no central repository exists for collecting mortgage fraud complaints, virtually all law enforcement and industry statistics indicated an upswing in mortgage fraud activity. SAR mortgage fraud filings from financial institutions increased 36 percent to 63,713 during Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 compared to 46,717 filings in FY2007. The total dollar loss attriSbuted to mortgage fraud is unknown; however, at least 63 percent (1,035) of all pending FBI mortgage fraud investigations during FY2008 involved dollar losses totaling more than $1 million.

A decrease in loan originations and an increase in defaults and foreclosures continued to dominate the downward trend in the housing market in 2008. While the amount of mortgage fraud cannot be precisely determined, industry experts agree that there is a direct correlation between fraud and distressed real estate markets. As the housing market continued to decline in response to an increase in housing inventories, lack of sales, and new foreclosures surface, to include a wave of Alt-A and Option ARM loans due to reset beginning in April 2009, real estate values softened, and fraud reporting increased throughout 2008.

Analysis of available law enforcement and industry information indicates the top states for mortgage fraud during 2008 were California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, Arizona, Texas, Maryland, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Colorado, Nevada, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and the District of Columbia. Rhode Island , Massachusetts , Pennsylvania , and the District of Columbia were new to the list in 2008, replacing Utah , Indiana , Tennessee and Connecticut from 2007.

The downward trend in the housing market during 2008 provided a favorable climate for mortgage fraud schemes to proliferate. Several of these schemes have the potential to spread if the current economic downward trend, as expected, continues into 2009 and beyond. Increases in foreclosures, declining housing prices, and decreased demand place pressure on lenders, builders, and home sellers. These and other market participants are perpetuating and modifying old schemes, including property flipping, builder-bailouts, short sales, and foreclosure rescues. Additionally, they are facilitating new schemes, including reverse mortgage fraud, credit enhancements, condo conversion, loan modifications, and pump and pay in response to tighter lending practices..........http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/mortgage-fraud-2008

[-] -1 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 12 years ago

"We are demanding that they be prosecuted for switching Mortgages at closing with high interest balloon payments after a year."

Why did you agree to sign the mortgage if it had a balloon payment after a year?

[-] 0 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Well dumb ass I guess you've never closed on a house.....Everything is supposed to be set before the closing, if the contract is ILLEGALLY switched the people will not notice, you need a Philadelphia Lawyer to read it, trust is important. You don't expect the bank your dealing with to be that crooked and dishonest........Does this educate your pea brain?

[-] 1 points by JPB950 (2254) 12 years ago

Did you actually buy a house without a lawyer to look at the paperwork? I suppose I agree that trust is important, but it's probably the biggest purchase a person will make, too big for me to feel secure with just trust.

[-] 0 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 12 years ago

Yeah, parsimony says they didn't switch the papers, it says you didn't require all documents be in your hand 24 hours prior to closing so you can read everything in advance.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Its in the Government Report and they are being charge with a crime for it......to the tune of one Trillion dollars..............Mortgage fraud In 2004, the Federal Bureau of Investigation warned of an "epidemic" in mortgage fraud, an important credit risk of nonprime mortgage lending, which, they said, could lead to "a problem that could have as much impact as the S&L crisis............................................Mortgage Fraud Defined

Mortgage fraud is a material misstatement, misrepresentation, or omissions relied upon by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan. Mortgage loan fraud is divided into two categories: fraud for property and fraud for profit. Fraud for property/housing entails misrepresentations by the applicant for the purpose of purchasing a property for a primary residence. This scheme usually involves a single loan. Although applicants may embellish income and conceal debt, their intent is to repay the loan. Fraud for profit, however, often involves multiple loans and elaborate schemes perpetrated to gain illicit proceeds from property sales. Gross misrepresentations concerning appraisals and loan documents are common in fraud for profit schemes and participants are frequently paid for their participation. Although there is no centralized reporting mechanism for mortgage fraud complaints or investigations, numerous regulatory, industry, and law enforcement agencies collaborate to share information used to assess the current fraud climate...................................................Do you need anything else, I believe I have submitted enough evidence that even someone with as little knowledge on the subject should be able to find the facts......

[-] 1 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 12 years ago

Actually I'm quite knowledgeable about mortgages and the odds are still highly highly unlikely that that is what happened. However, you diatribe gives no specifics as to how this was done, nor does it name the parties involved. It also says misrepresentation of the loan documents, not actually physically switching them. In other words, someone told you one thing when the paper said another. Had you actually read the paper, that point would have been obvious.

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 12 years ago

Chuck Dumb Ass doesn't even know what he copied and pasted. The above post has to do with borrowers committing fraud on the lender. It has nothing to do with switching loan documents and making the borrower sign something the borrower never agreed to sign.

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 12 years ago

From the hostile tone of your response, you must be one of the morons who did not read what they were signing. I do own a home and guess what? I read the papers! You must be regretting dropping out of school in the 4th grade.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Mortgage Fraud Defined

Mortgage fraud is a material misstatement, misrepresentation, or omissions relied upon by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan. Mortgage loan fraud is divided into two categories: fraud for property and fraud for profit. Fraud for property/housing entails misrepresentations by the applicant for the purpose of purchasing a property for a primary residence. This scheme usually involves a single loan. Although applicants may embellish income and conceal debt, their intent is to repay the loan. Fraud for profit, however, often involves multiple loans and elaborate schemes perpetrated to gain illicit proceeds from property sales. Gross misrepresentations concerning appraisals and loan documents are common in fraud for profit schemes and participants are frequently paid for their participation. Although there is no centralized reporting mechanism for mortgage fraud complaints or investigations, numerous regulatory, industry, and law enforcement agencies collaborate to share information used to assess the current fraud climate..............................................FBI says...........................Mortgage fraud trends in 2008 reflected the overall downturn in the US economy initiated by the sub-prime mortgage crisis of 2007. The US stock markets suffered their deepest losses since the 1930s; unemployment increased dramatically; the mortgage loan industry reported a spike in foreclosures and defaults; and financial markets continued to contract, diminishing credit to financial institutions, businesses, and homeowners. These combined factors uncovered and fueled a rampant mortgage fraud climate fraught with opportunistic participants desperate to maintain or increase their current standard of living. Industry employees sought to maintain the high standard of living they enjoyed during the boom years of the real estate market and overextended mortgage holders were often desperate to reduce or eliminate their bloated mortgage payments.................................Now don't you feel just a little bit stupid for calling ME THE DUMB ASS.......You must have been looking in a, mirror.........

[-] 0 points by HarryPairatestes2 (380) from Barrow, AK 12 years ago

Did you actually read what you copied and pasted? I guess not because what you posted was when the borrower commits fraud against the lender. What you pasted has absolutely nothing to do with what you complaining about about in your initial post. My friends are rolling on the floor laughing at you. Hey Chuck Dumb Ass, I have a nice home to sell you. Interested??

[-] -1 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

As soon as you can get rid of all the stealing, raping and killing at the Occupy camps then we can eliminate all the stealing by corporations. I have no doubt corporations are stealing, but dishonest behavior cannot be eliminated.

Please be an adult and address reality. Its time to stop believing that a Utopian future exists. OWS has promoted awareness. Ok thats good, but now its time to declare victory and go home.

[-] 1 points by occupeepee (3) 12 years ago

"There is no Utopian future" <TRANSLATION> "Let's get used to being fucked."

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 12 years ago

Then why the fuck did you open your trap to ask? Get over yourself. Nobody thinks that there is a Utopian future. But, we the people are tired of paying the price for the douches you so proudly defend.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Your just plain Ignorant.

[-] 3 points by FutureNow (92) 12 years ago

Are you being inconvenienced?

Look in the mirror and say: why am I so obsessed with this that I have to be on this computer 24/7

What am I really afraid of? Why do I feel compelled to try to stop this movement?

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Notice how the question is subtly framed to limit the context of discourse. It's called keeping things within "the bounds of thinkable thought." The question should be, "Is the corporate establishment doing a good enough job of taking care of earths people and resources that we should conscent to leaving it in charge of human destiny?" If this question is framed in this way, it is likely to produce an entirely different responce.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by occupeepee (3) 12 years ago

Thomas, We occupy because we don't enjoy eating chemically-engineered foods and because we are tired of the faux-democracy charade played in our capital at every election. We are tired of corporations and members of the elite class making our decisions in "the land of the free". We want what was promised to us by our Constitution. Please, see the glory in that. We ask for proportionally greater taxes for the rich, for the exclusion of money from politics, and for control of the banks belonging to government-- not the other way around. This will solve problems for the 99% and that probably includes you, too, whether or not you understand it.

[-] 1 points by Puzzlin (2898) 12 years ago

And don't put words in our mouth.

Your flawed.

[-] 1 points by nichole (525) 12 years ago

Prison Industrial Complex (While Americans only represent about 5 percent of the world's population, one-quarter of the entire world's inmates are incarcerated in the United States.) Military Industrial Complex (Contracts Counter [ Value of ALL Contracts Since 10/30/2006 ]$1,363,388,196,722 [ Value of Contracts In 2010 ] $489,324,474,173, http://www.MilitaryIndustrialComplex.com/). Citizens United. Flammable drinking water in fracking regions. Stagnant wages.

[-] 1 points by tulcak (698) from Prague, Prague 12 years ago

If you have to ask the question, then you don't understand what the occupy movement is about. corporations control our government and our economy - the American people are not going to change things there. that is WHY the American people are occupying. and, no one is blaming anyone. the occupy movement is putting the spotlight on the problems. and taking direct action (unlike congress and the president). the occupy movement will solve problems. the two biggest problems America has had over the past 30 years are these: 1. inaction and lethargy by the American people, 2. our government and the rich and powerful have ignored us - and they still are trying to - but, the cage is being rattled. the biggest fear for our elected officials and corporations is that the occupy movement won't go away and will threaten the status quo. well, guess what? its not going away. They pushed it too far, got too greedy. Americans, and people around the world are motivated at a deep level. this won't stop and it will solve problems. the problems you seem ignorant of.

[-] 1 points by karenpoore (902) 12 years ago

You are living in la la land and not even aware of what is coming ... nothing like you have ever experienced.

[-] 1 points by Joyce (375) 12 years ago

Please, do tell. What can we look forward to?

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 12 years ago

I am not quite sure, but on the bottom line maybe an evolution of humanity. For right now, at least, in the US our economy and way of life is becoming more in line with the rest of the world's economies. I have always called it the elimination of the middle class. Take a look around this website: http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/category/commentary

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Short answer?

OccupyWallstreet!!!!

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 12 years ago

@thomasmiller

This is the impression you get when you watch Entertainment Television instead of the News. He is an epiphany for you. Corporations are not a person and they were never included as a part of the political process by the Founding Fathers.

Thomas Jefferson - “I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

Thomas Jefferson - “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”

Thomas Jefferson - “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”

John Adams - “Banks have done more injury to the religion, morality, tranquility, prosperity, and even wealth of the nation than they can have done or will ever do good.”

James Madison - “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.”

That would be historical fact instead of hysterical belief.

Here is a draft Constitutional Amendment to restore power to were it was always meant to be.

http://www.nycga.net/groups/political-and-electoral-reform/docs/amendment-28-to-the-constitution-of-the-united-states-of-america

This is called leveling the playing field and not trying for a handout.

Anything else you need corrected?

[-] 1 points by Vooter (441) 12 years ago

No, unfortunately, elections are NOT "our chance." That's because our elections have been completely corrupted by corporate money, especially after the outrageous Citizens United ruling by the Supreme Court (which, of course, is an UNELECTED body), which allows corporations to pour as much money as they want into elections. Individuals, however, don't have the same financial wherewithal to affect elections, which has basically made elections in this country a completely unfair bribefest. Are you happy with this? I'm not.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 12 years ago

Ha ha ha ...GMAFB...again you write some BS from your personal perspective..

"Is it worth Occupying to the point where people are getting hurt, killed and lives being destroyed?"

People have already been getting hurt,killed and lives being destroyed by Wall Street and a government that enabled them , you jackass!

THAT'S THE REASON THEY ARE OCCUPYING..

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

I think you are largely uninformed. Here's Obama's campaign contributors. http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

Now why would Obama want to make legislation to stop the Banks and Corporations again?

You'll find this phenomenon quite common.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

He already legislated a consumer watch dog agency, but the Tea Party Republicans refuse to let the department head to be seated Does that show you something or should we all commit suicide and vote Republican.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

A toothless agency that has no funding and can't enforce any laws.

It doesn't matter how you vote in the next election. If you vote for Obama, you're voting for a Liar who promised Hope and Change and has given exactly the same thing but worse. And if you vote for Romney you're going to get more of the same but worse. So in either case, we're screwed.

The only thing that might change the political landscape is if Ron Lawl gets put up by the Republicans, but he won't so don't sweat it.

At this point we're talking about needing to declare independence from congress. It's gotten that bad.

[-] 0 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Obama is not a liar, your a bigoted fool........... It's not a toothless agency, that's why the Tea Party Republicans refused to allow a vote on it's head.....Voting for a Republican and having him elected would be suicide for the 99% no doubt.........It's gotten so bad because the Religious Right(Tea Party) Republicans are obstructing Government from functioning and attacking Government Agency's.....................The income inequality started with Ronald Reagan and finished with Bush's $800 billion give away to the 1% and going to war against Iraq, which wasn't a threat to our national security.....................If you actually think a republican/Libertarian is the answer then you don't know the QUESTION.

[-] 2 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

Name me one thing Obama has done in the name of Change? Campaign reform, nope, ObamaCare? It's given more power to the private insurance agencies then ever before. Prosecuting Wall Street Criminals? Nope. Ending war? He's engaged in more war then Clinton and Bush.

We voted him in on a campaign of change, and he's changed nothing. He's a criminal like the rest.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

Affordable Health Care was an Historic piece of legislation......Your characterizing it as giving Insurance company's more power is False and despicable on your part..................Obama has ended the Iraq war and is downsizing the Afghanistan war................Your characterization of Obama as having started more wars than Clinton and Bush is again False and a despicable comment.............Just how id Obama a criminal? your sounding more like a Troll than someone who can carry on a debate.

[-] 1 points by JonoLith (467) 12 years ago

Obama didn't end the Iraq War. He's just allowing the Bush Timeline to elapse. Obama's downsizing the Afghanistan war, after he put more troops on the ground there then Bush did. Libya? That one is all Obama. And he's ramping up to invade Iran. http://thestudentrevolt.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/obama-announces-plan-to-invade-iran-within-a-year/

If you think Obama's not a war monger, you're kidding yourself.

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

JonoLith.................Bush didn't have a plan.......you call Student Revolt.........A reliable source..............They quoted Obama as saying we will invade Iran in a year!........ First we can take out their electrical grid with Tomahawk missiles using electromagnetic pulse bombs and our B-1 Bombers would take out their nuclear sites...............Iran would be helpless within a week and unable to defend itself...........As for Student Revolt How would "Student Revolt" have that type of information?......Unless they are talking about the Military's contingency planning...............Libya succeeded in Gaddfy's overthrow without ground forces.........Obama has a plan to end the war in Afghanistan, Bush neglected it in favor of invading a country that was not a security threat to the US.....Obama got Osama Bin Ladin...........So you see we can take out Iran without ground forces and without going nuclear......Get a life and educate yourself on world affairs...

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

Your post seems quite thoughtful. I admire your sense.of personal responsibility. I too am getting by. The thing is that sometimes, others are to blame. The policies of our government affect us all. I'm not saying the tactics or strategies of this movement are not subject to question, but I do agree with some of the goals. Are you OK with the fact that our manufacturing jobs are moving to Asia and other third world nations,for example? .What about the massive increase in poverty and hunger? I tend to agree with you that finding candidates to support would be the way to go.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Very, very, very few people in the US are hungry in the true sense of the word compared to the rest of the world.

I do agree that all these jobs going overseas is troubling. But at the same time we would likely not have the quality of life we do now without it because our luxuries would be too expensive if produced here at home. You can get a 42 inch flat screen HDTV for like $299 now. Can you imagine what it would cost if it were made in the US? Same thing goes for cell phones and a lot of other stuff we feel as though we can't live without.

There needs to be a happy medium somewhere, I just have no idea where it might be.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

Thank you for your response. I think.though, that the argument that manufactured items would be too expensive if they were made here needs little more examination. First I would like to point out what seems to be a little know fact. The percentage represented by labor cost in the price of manufactured goods on average is only about 15%. So if that holds for the flat screen, it's about $30. If you double the labor cost, $330. You can then subtract the cost of shipping it across the Pacific. Some folks seem to think if you double the cost of labor, you double the cost of the product. Another part of the equation, requires looking at our US economy as a whole. As we lose jobs and our wage levels drop as a result of trying to compete with slave wages, our ability to afford luxuries, or even necessities is diminished. The pool of wealth within our economy is siphoned off.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

Yes but unfortunately, it is not just the incremental increase in the actual laborer's cost that will be passed on. It is the laborer's direct manager, and his manager, and then the district manager, and the regional manager, and so on. Those people all make much, much more in the US than in say Indonesia, and unfortunately they all increase the price.

These 2 links show 2 different tvs that are essentially identical except one is made in the US and one is made who knows where. As you can see the prices are not even close.

http://www.amazon.com/Olevia-542i-42-Inch-LCD-HDTV/dp/B000H2TPDE/ref=sr_1_6?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1321131269&sr=1-6

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sceptre-40-X405BV-FHD/16829822

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

Well, the manufacturer Olevia, is a company that actually "reshored", so I guess at least one company decided the advantages of manufacturing here, outweighed the disadvantages. I don't think that one anecdote necessarily represents price differences across the board. Personally, I would rather pay more than see the US economy trashed.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

I agree. I try to support mom and pop shops whenever I can. And often times it is feasible. But more often than not, American made products sold at a mom and pop store are going to cost 2x, 3x, etc more. So as an individual person it does not make sense to shop there, regardless of what it may mean for the economy as a whole.

[-] 1 points by notaneoliberal (2269) 12 years ago

I agree it is not feasible or realistic for many people to chose to pay a much higher price on an individual basis. I do however advocate protective tariffs. I base this on a study of the economic history, as it relates to general prosperity and more even income distribution and the history of tariffs. The 1950s through the 1960s is a prime example. I also happened to have lived through most of that period.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

yes.. so until americans are like the starving in sudan you refuse to see a problem..you are willing to sit back on hope that things turn out ok.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

There have always been rich people and poor people. Since the beginning of civilization there have been rich people and poor people. Just like today. I don't really consider it a problem that one can just fix, it is just the way it is and the way it always will be. No one in the US is starving to death and we should be very thankful for that. Now Sudan, that is a real problem.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

but if things do not change.. there will be people in america starving to death.. cant you see that is the path we are on? if we just let things go on as usual.. the new segment of population that is unemployed will eventually fall into poverty and the ones that are in poverty will fall into starvation.

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

Really, if you visit other places, the USA is still by far the best place on earth to live. Even the poor in America are better off that most places in the world. I have been to some of those places. No thanks, I'll stay here.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

I agree. I just got back from the Domincan Republic. That is true poverty.

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

Thank you. America is great! A poor person can still find some soda cans and go to Jack in the Box and get dinner. Try that in the Domincan Republic!

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 12 years ago

Good for you. There are at least 50,000,000 American workers not as clever as you.

We are fighting propaganda. Propaganda is the weapon that controls the minds of Americans. read more - http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/

Every person controlled by propaganda, denies being controlled. It is up to each individual in the privacy of his own mind to consider his/her own behavior. If you are unwilling to examine self destructive behavior that is impacting your own ability to get a job, to allow the privileged to transfer your wealth to them by unfair taxation, to poison your air/water/food (remember the BP oil spill), and to bribe the entire congress for laws benefiting them at your expense, then you are a traitor.

Each one of these individuals defensively denies having a weak mind that can be manipulated. It is that defense that backfires. If people understood that their own self destructive behavior which forces them to vote for either of the 2 bribed candidate with the most money. The amount of money raised indicates which candidate has been bribed. When the bag men spread the cash to both Democratic and Republican candidates in the race, its because they don't know for sure who will win the election.

It is stupid and ignorant to vote for any candidate receiving bribes. The reason no American will call the bribes by name is the obvious fact that proves each of the 98% voting for the bribed candidate is in the deep propaganda trance they deny. They are too arrogant to consider they might be bribed. They would rather be thrown into the street with no job prospects than to deal with the trance that drives them to vote against themselves.

Curiosity that examines the irrational behavior is necessary to snap the trance. But the arrogance prevents the curiosity with denial. It is the same as a dog chasing his own tale going round and round.

There can be no end in sight until dealing directly with the propaganda trance begins on a national scale. The alternative will be electing the same crooks taking bribes. Its up to each individual to recognize self destructive behavior.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

Great Post! It is the absolute truth and most people don't understand that we are easily brainwashed, its built into our species to have this flaw but necessary to control the masses. I wish this was not the case but when I remember Y2K and how people reacted to it, I had to accept that brainwashing is common.

[-] 1 points by stevemiller (1062) 12 years ago

Thank you barb. They love to forget Y2K. Here's another one.

http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/ Michael Moore's movie Farenheit 911.

Rather than portraying the evidence which concludes that Bush directed the conspiracy; Moore's documentary uses innuendo to infer there might be some looking the other way. None of the following facts prove anything concerning Bush's involvement: Saudis were allowed to leave America and Prince Bandar was a close friend of Bush, and no one else was allowed to fly. Major James R. Bath and airman Bush were suspended for their failure to take a medical examination, Bath would later be closely involved in Bush's oil companies. In a document that was altered by the White House, Bath's name was blacked out in the 2004 version compared to the 2000 version. Bath was the money manager for the Bin Laden family in America.

Moore either failed to study the hard evidence that Bush directly ordered the explosives rigged in the 3 WTC towers in addition to ordering a missile to be fired into the Pentagon. Would any Air Force General agree and fire that missile into the Pentagon unless the Commander in Chief ordered him to do that? Could bin Laden contact any American General? If Flight 77 actually hit the Pentagon there would be pictures to prove that inside the Pentagon. There would be jet engines, landing gear, hundreds of seats or their frames, luggage and passengers' bodies, but no pictures exist of any remains of Flight 77. At least one credible Pentagon employee filed a law suit in the SDNY court claiming there was no indication of any plane associated with the explosion that blasted April Gallop out of her seat before she scrambled out of the building. The suit was dismissed by Judge Denny Chin and went before the 2nd Circuit on appeal. Bush's cousin Judge John M. Walker, Jr. was on the Appeal panel to prevent remanding the case back for trial.

If there were any pictures of the rubble they could have allowed April Gallop's trial to proceed and proved her claim to be false with pictures. Pictures of the outside wall showed a small hole compared to the size of a Boeing 767 as if the wings of the plane with 2 huge Rolls Royce jet engines folded like the wings of a bird. The soft aluminum fuselage of a plane could create the hole in the thick Pentagon wall but the titanium engines dissolved.

This film muddied the water to protect Bush. Did Moore intend to protect Bush when the film focused on nonsense, or did Moore legitimately not know how to investigate this crime? I will attempt to learn the answer today when I meet Moore in person.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 12 years ago

I participate in science forums and one scientist commented that the city was not thinking of investigating the scene of 9/11 but removing the debris as fast as possible. This is lame in my opinion.

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[-] 0 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

There is no active propaganda machine in the United States unless you want to consider the Obama Campaign a propaganda machine!

[-] 1 points by Democracydriven (658) 12 years ago

So how do you know that?

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 12 years ago

I do. and we're going to see racism be part of his reelection propaganda.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 12 years ago

Come on Tommy...It's all propaganda...The truth is this country is fcked and will need to get unfcked soon...

I see a couple of ways this can happen...

  1. Bankers realizing that the 99% really do know how they got robbed and doing whatever it takes to make the people whole again, before the people rise up with pitchforks and torches..

  2. The people rise up with pitch forks and torches, so desperate for vengeance that you couldn't satisfy them with anything except by having someone's head on a pike..

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

and how long can you last at your new level? plan on for the rest of your life. if nothing changes.. you will be considered the new middle class. what you have will be considered luxury.

[-] 0 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

I am not low, middle or high class...I have my own class. I drive a Honda by choice and dont feel I need to drive anything else. Its a fine reliable car which I feel is the best made out there. I live in a modest 1-story ranch house and I wouldnt want to live in anything else. Easy on maintenance, easy to take care of and fits my way of life. Its no mansion, but I still love it. I do travel, but I dont fly in first class. I am happy with economy class. I really dont care about high class accomodations and, frankly, would feel a little weird driving around in a Mercedes. I am happy with what I have and if some guy in a Ferrari passes me then so bet it. I never dreamed of owning one. I am happy with my way of life and it fits me well.

I dont believe more government is a solution. I dont believe Occupying is a solution. The only solution for the majority of you here is to find a job and work it.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

and the exact point is... there are no jobs... this is the problem nothing else.. this economy has lost millions and millions of jobs. i guess you will never see this until you lose your job and find that its taking you years to find another.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

There are a ton of ways to make money online. Many markets online are not very efficient at all and you can profit from it. If people can use this forum, they can make money online. I put myself through college and graduate school doing so and I still dable in it from time to time.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

most people have been busy working the last 10 years.. they dont have any knowledge of working the internet. the most they have done is send emials and join facebook.. it is a ridicules idea to think everyone can just make web page and start selling something.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

It isn't ridiculous. I was drunk half the time when I was in college and still managed to make it work. If you can use Facebook, you can definitely make some money. Look at how many people make money on Ebay and Stubhub. You don't have to set anything up, you just need to find the right product. And those are just 2 examples, there are countless of others.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

ive never even heard of stub hub and ive never heard of making money on facebook its ridiculous,, ive never paid for anything on facebook either so who is making money?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 12 years ago

I meant that if you had the computing abilities to use Facebook you could use other sites to make money. StubHub is a ticket marketplace. You can obviously sell anything on Ebay and people make good money doing it. Drop shipping is another way. It just takes a little research.

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

If there are no jobs, then why are most Americans working? Also, if a young person went into the military, he could train for a cool job and when they get out, they could go into the Federal Civil Service. Thats what I did.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 12 years ago

Then you are employed by the government that so many want to reduce with a 50-50 chance that YOUR job would be one of those that goes.

For every position advertised there a minimum of 4 applicants in the ranks of the unemployed, add in those who are underemployed and those who no longer are 'counted' in the statistic you could probably make that 12 applicants for one position. Then there is the within the ranks applicants, often companies promote from within, or because of hiring laws, advertise a position that will be filled by a current employee when his/her job phases out.

It seems that many believe the production worker expects to be over paid, yet without the production worker there is no production. The term ditch digger has been used, by some, and we need those 'ditch diggers' too.

Those are the people who make sure the water lines are intact and the septic lines are not ruptured and if they do rupture, those are the people who repair them.

There are thousand of misplaced workers, nice turn of phrase, misplaced worker...who have worked the same job for 20 years, these are the people for whom much of the more common advise is not truly applicable. They are established and invested in one area, they are not fluid people like the younger generations are, they are less employable than many because of age, after all, older workers get sick more often.

There are no easy fixes for any of us. For some of us it doesn't matter how hard we work, how hard we try, it's simply that we are not what today's employer wants for an employee.

Are people being so repressed in the USA? Not yet, but it could easily get there if we do not exercise our rights. Use it or loose it.

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

Sorry, but even today, if a person works hard and is best he can be, he or she can still work in fast food for example and become a manager of the store. You have to work for it. I know folks who have. The young girl down the street with no collage at all is now the manager of a huge fast food chain store and she makes good money. She puts in many long hours but she is the very best in the store. Also, sometimes you have to move to another area to find work. Just like they did during the dust bowl. If you want to work, you can work.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 12 years ago

Again there are many for whom moving is unfeasible. It's easy to say, just move the reality is much different.

You mention one person, I point out that for EVERY job listed there are a minimum of 4 applicants not counting the underemployed and those not on the unemployment stats. 1 job and potentially 12 people seeking, at least 11 people will NOT be hired and there is not another job available.

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

Just remember that even in good times 5% of folks are unemployed. Many folks will never work no matter what. That is a fact. I know some of these folks. Live off the system. Really good at it.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 12 years ago

I am not the one who forgets...I also know how hard it is to move when you've lived in the same place for 20 years, have a house nearly paid for etc.

It's easy to say but sometimes nearly impossible to do.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 12 years ago

then why is there talk of how hard it is for returning vets to get jobs? and there are how many people hired at your job in the last month or so? get real

[-] 1 points by mandodod (144) 12 years ago

Sir, there are jobs for Vets. They will just have to move. If they go back to their hometowns then no, there are no jobs. But in San Diego or other military/civil service towns, there are jobs for the returning Vet. I know, I live in one of those towns. Federal Gov is hiring. Border patrol for instance. All the time. Also, US Customs.

[-] 0 points by zorno (386) 12 years ago

The problems that we face now are much bigger than just unemployment. This economic crisis could result in another world war, just like the great depression was followed by a world war. Such a war is setup to be triggered in the Middle East already.

[-] 0 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

War will happen and its been happening for a few thousand years. As for the middle east, war is going to happen there for sure eventually and there is nothing we can do about it. I am only for involvement in the middle east to a minimal extent. I do not believe there is anything we can do to prevent war there. They have to solve our own problems.

In the meantime, we can be united as a team. The more we are united the stronger we become. "Occupy" is an organization which divides America. It will not make America either better or stronger. Its a device created by a person who is anti-American. The middle east and Occupy are two different animals.

[-] 0 points by zorno (386) 12 years ago

A war in the middle east could become a regional war and then a global war. If we nuke Iran, Russia and China will probably nuke us.

I don't think all OWS people are anti-American. I've been to numerous websites from OWS people with US flags all over them. There is a strong patriotic contingent within OWS and some of the others are learning from these people.

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 12 years ago

there are fringes. Im strongly patriotic, but I came here from Mexico and know what we have here is worth protecting from people who are selling us out. And I join Tea Party too.

[-] 1 points by zorno (386) 12 years ago

That's what I'm talking about!

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[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 12 years ago

Hi troll, You say "The only person to blame for your situation is yourself."? Frequent here: theeconomiccollapseblog.com/

[-] 0 points by anarchyforaardvarks (3) 12 years ago

You're missing the point. OWS is not about asking for handouts from the government. OWS is asking for what we, the 99%, as citizens and taxpayers are entitled to. We're entitled to a solid education. If not university, we should be graduating high school students with the language, mathematical, and technical skills to be able to perform in the workplace. We're entitled to have our tax dollars go toward a public infrastructure that surpasses or is at least comparable to those in other first world countries. We're entitled to basic health care. No one should have to go bankrupt to foot their hospital bills. We're entitled to a government that is functional and responsive to our needs. This focus on corporate greed is a necessary discussion we should be having as a nation. We're not demanding that they send us money, we're demanding that they pay their fair portion of taxes and they stop taking our tax dollars away from the educational investment, infrastructure investment, etc. that government should be making on OUR behalf.

[-] 1 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

Quite honestly, you are entitled to nothing. There is nothing free in life. Do you honestly believe you are entitled to anything free when you go into Walmart or any store out there?

My honest advice is this...the 80% have jobs and work them. Why dont you join them?

[-] 0 points by TakingBackAmerica78 (94) 12 years ago

"Quite honestly, you are entitled to nothing. There is nothing free in life. Do you honestly believe you are entitled to anything free when you go into Walmart or any store out there?"

Unless you're the 1% you meant to say. The elite get free things everyday. Entitlement is the biggest attraction to politics as a career these days. Open your eyes. I know you won't take my word for it so Google it. Time for you to step into reality, bud.

[-] 0 points by TakingBackAmerica78 (94) 12 years ago

You are completely brainwashed Thomas. Don't listen to what you're hearing on Fox news! Keep an open mind. It's absolutely true that America is the greatest country in the world. That doesn't mean that it can't get better though. It's our job as citizens to effect progress. You are not honoring your duties as an American citizen by trying to dissuade people from participating in the political process. Please think about that long and hard. I'm not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. I'm a small business owner. I've paid my school loans already and I sure as shit don't need any handouts. I'm here because we can be better!

[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 12 years ago

Quoting "Occupy Wall Street will not make America better. It will not solve any problems. It will, however, create problems." clearly "thomasmiller" your mind is made up.

However, you seem to really miss the whole point. People do not want some "government handout". In fact the largest handouts don't go to the little people, they go to corporations and the bankster class. This is well known.

The monetary system we have, with private bankers creating money from debt, is a sick pyramid scam. 40 percent of the cost of everything we buy is taken by interest to the banksters, and it is 50 percent for government projects! This is the broken system we are yelling about, wake up! It is not too much to ask that we level the field, and remove this free money to 1% of the population who then use the windfall to oppress the rest of us. Yes economic repression is insidious and evil. I am sure you know this, and that you are only here to wast others time and lamely attempt to confound the issue, however the truth will out.

Read something; Now Is the Time for an Economic Bill of Rights | Truthout: http://www.truth-out.org/time-economic-bill-rights/1320938466

[-] 0 points by OneVoice (153) 12 years ago

thomasmiller, Corporations have taken the democratic process out of democracy. The globalization of our workforce was not designed to raise wages or benefits for middle class and lower class workers. The securitization of mortgages and the process of bundling toxic debt within these instruments created record profits and bonuses. The triple A ratings these securities were given should have been a crime by either those who provided the financial documentation to rating agencies or the agencies themselves. However, crimes were committed. As long as Corporations influence government policies via monetary contributions or job offers after elected representatives leave office they will continue to create problems for the middle and lower class society.

[-] 0 points by yasminec001 (584) 12 years ago

I understand your opinion, but you need to know that not everything in America is equal opportunity. It's not always 'that easy' for anyone to get a job, get an education, get a house, get enough money for food and to pay taxes and pay off all the ridiculous debt.

Just because it's been relatively average for you does not mean it's like that with everyone else. Some people were born without helpful adults and had to overcome normal situations with horrible conditions that others get through with a snap of their finger. Have you had to fight, strive, and worry every second of your life to find your next meal, your next home, or the next job to sustain your family? Because of unfair standards? Have you ever lost your home because your mortgage went through the roof and you just couldn't pay it anymore?

[-] 0 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 12 years ago

Its not so much about what we're having or not having. Its what they are taking away since Bush while most of the people are still under the impression that everything is 1980s land and this will get better. It wont get better, because it CANT. Too much money has been moved out of the country, too many jobs have been moved to overseas and more are going all the time. Too much money has been spent by the government bailing out corporations which are taking the money and doing whatever the hell they please with it.

You and I and every American owes that bailout money, WE owe the national debt, except there is no way the government can get it from us if we're not working because all the jobs are going overseas. This poisonous combination of an easily corrupted government and corporate money has left the US almost bankrupt, and other countries are wringing their hands in anticipation and trying to hurry that along. Our standard of living is not just going to go down, but is going to do down very far. IF these things DO NOT STOP immediately. Trillions and trillions spent to bail out failing banks that they set up to fail artificially so they could get gift money from the government. Who owes them favors.

So we are trying to make people wake up! Be an alarm clock to open their eyes and start reading the available information. NOT the mainstream media which is helping the corporations, but the economist reports, Dylan Ratigan, Alex Jones, hell even Glenn Beck has a little bit of it right. You will be surprised at what the US politicians are preparing for with our current economic situation..the current economic situation is not just a recession it is a disaster and they know it, but they are not stopping. We've never owed so much money and the US has no money to pay it back with. It could collapse overnight if China calls in our debts just to them.

Most people know there is something really wrong if they don't know exactly what is happening. We're trying to help them see what is happening.

[-] 0 points by zorno (386) 12 years ago

According to the constitution, it is the responsibility of the government to promote the common good. So in a sense, you could say it owes us that. Particularly in the form of developing the economy.

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[-] -1 points by anony1 (50) 12 years ago

Let me be honest with you. I think you guys are a bunch of lazy bastards. You are not reporting to a job in the morning...nor are you reporting to school. This OWS thing gives you something to do so you do it. If someone gets hurt then so be it, its all George Bush's fault anyway. You are not helping me or anyone else with this bs and it really hasnt effected public opinion one way or the other.

[-] -1 points by velveeta (230) 12 years ago

It's not so much "oppression" as extortion. The government and the financial elites have their hands in your pocket 24-7. They are fleecing you every second of your life. A person born in the USA these days is born with a massive debt on their head the minute they pop out of the womb. If that's not some form of indentured slavery, I don't know what is.

[-] 1 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

I dont have any debt and that is because I have always lived within my means. No one forced anyone to buy more house then they could afford.

[-] -1 points by velveeta (230) 12 years ago

By the end of 2010, CBO predicts that the total U.S. debt held by the public (as opposed to the gross national debt which includes inter-governmental holdings) will be $9.05 trillion. That means that children born in 2010 will start life with a personal share of the public debt equaling $29,178.

are you somehow exempt from taxes?

[-] 2 points by NortonSound (176) 12 years ago

That's not so bad. Only $29, 178? Where do I send the chedk? Nothing to get all unglued about. I thought it was much more. Didn't Bush spend about that much on invading Sweeden?

[-] -1 points by velveeta (230) 12 years ago

You have no debt? Your taxes go to pay off the government debt, which was accumulated fighting your wars, building your infrastructure, paying your congressional reps, paying out ss, medicare, etc, etc... Are you somehow excluded from this debt - maybe you cheat on your taxes or don't pay them?

[-] -1 points by thomasmiller (163) 12 years ago

When will you people realize that every time you label someone as 99% or 1% then you are being a bigot and discriminating. It feels sometimes like I am talking to some Ku Klux Klan members. Please do not discriminate. Enough!

[-] -1 points by owschico (295) 12 years ago