Forum Post: I applaud Papandreou...........
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 1:41 p.m. EST by paulg5
(673)
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I applaud Papandreou for making the decision to take a vote from the people of Greece in order to decide whether to accept a EU bailout. Because it's the people who will be taking the cuts not the government. And if I were Greek I would vote NO!
That's the problem.
The Greeks will vote No, then their country will default.
They will then be in far worse shape then if they accepted the bailout.
Well I guess it's live free or die a slave!
They won't be living free. Without the bailout their country will collapse.
But they won't be living free. They'll still owe the money -- much more money than if they accepted the bailout deal. They'll be burdened by their debts and excluded from credit markets for over a generation. It's hard for anyone to make a living under those conditions.
Really, the choice is between living with hardship by accepting the bailout, or dying on the margins of the world economy by rejecting it.
I think the world economy put Greece where it is today! There was no real world economy before the computer age 30 some years ago, but there was international trade which spawned the notion. At that time countries seemed to manage very well on their own.
Yes, if Greece could only turn the clock back 30 years, then the Greek people would be "living free" under a military dictatorship.
Greece scores well across all measures of debt but one:
We have extremely low household debt / GDP ratio.
We have extremely low corporate debt/ GDP ratio.
We have extremely low bank debt/ GDP ratio.
We have a manageable total debt / GDP ratio. Half that of the UK or the US!
We only score poorly on sovereign debt / GDP ratio.
Greece is a country with rich, underlevereaged savers, underleveraged corporates and a healthy banking system whose government happens to have borrowed a hell of a lot of money.
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/02/greece_our_debt.html
Yep, the Greek economy is doing just swell.
Greece put itself where it is today because they did not take heed of one of their very own Greeks' warnings of a tragic flaw: too much pride. They were so determined that the Olympic games be there in 2004, they spent to the tune of 11 billion dollars. To host a party.
No thats not what broke them.
It's not what broke them, but it was the beginning of the party.
blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100012894/fast-cars-and-loose-fiscal-morals-there-are-more-porsches-in-greece-than-taxpayers-declaring-50000-euro-incomes/
I think porsche broke them. Lol.
That's funny...riding high on the hog those Greeks! They should pay.....What about the 1% here, same thing.....treatment entirely different.
That's funny. We noticed when in Athens recently that everyone appeared to have shiny new cars. Did not so much notice Porches, but while traveling by bus spotting an old car became a little game for us. Gotta love Greeks, though. I married one.
No, Argentina was in default in 2001 , after a few months, work came back, many sufer yes, but not much more than they where sufering already. At least you will have some bank bankrupts, if mosto of people doesnts has anything they will not care anyways .
Why? I mean, I supose you are right if you look at the 1% there, but those that have lost everything now, how will they be worseoff?
Iceland voted against the banksters too and they are picking up the pieces quite nicely. Don't buy into the bankster's world view.
Iceland didn't have a deficit. It's problem was completely different. The Europeans wanted them on the hook for Icelandic bank losses. They didn't need future financing like Greece does.
I found it odd that although there is four of the trouble euro zone economy failed (i.e Portugal Italy Greece, Spain -PIGS) but why only Greece call for an referendum? It smells something fishy with the European central banks here.
Do you think that if the government just went ahead and made a decision without the people's input, they would riot and cause lots of damage, and maybe loss of life, Papandreou may want to retain order!
I am not against a referendum but the process is long and short in answer. The answer would be either yes or no to European central bank bailout but not the solution to Greece problems and the PIGS nations as I have mentioned. Supposed the answer is NO then what would be the future of their life and the fate of other 17 euro country as a whole?Which country are willing to save them?America?
Yes, I do to!
Can you imagine a vote from the American people on whether or not to provide TARP funds to bail out the Banking Industry. We were told that our system would have collapsed. The inflated housing market was designed to fail once a natural correction in the market lowered home values. Goldman Sachs and many large lending institutions knew that products they were marketing had no value. We all know that the housing market is still overvalued in many parts of the country. What isn't talked about is what Goldman Sachs did to the housing market they also did to the stock market. The stock market is inflated and will correct itself once again.
Well if the result from the Greek vote is no, it will give us a glimpse at what might have happened if the bail out of our banks didn't happen!
You're right. Should be interesting if the Sky doesn't fall.
Go ahead vote no. Gee, now think ahead to what happens next. The austerity program will intensify, immediately. Immediately, government simply will not have the funds to spend more than it takes in. That means that those slacker government workers some tit like you would defend would immediately have bounced pay checks.
Maybe the govt would go back to its own currency. But why would anyone hold it. Anyone given new currency would dump it same day. It would be worthless confetti.
Greece needs imported things. Imports would simply stop for lack of payment. No outsider would take a new currency. That means even pharmaceuticals.
Those socialist fucks can do a lot of things. But what that can't do is invade somewhere else to take what they need. They also can't force anyone to give them more money.
It's game over and 10x worse if they take your ignorant advice.
Then again why not make the entire population government employees. and take the bailout and continue to spen spend spend. then what! I don't know why EU is offering them a bailout it's bad debt on top of bad debt. Either way every one will pay.
They're in a tough spot. Maybe they now wish they had cut them off upfront and just supported their own banks instead.
It would be kinda fun to see those stupid fucker government employees day 1 post default. What? Where's my check? Turn the machines back on!!! They definitely deserve it. Greece is a great warming about the twin cancers of government unions and entitlements.
These bailouts must be in lump sums with no previsions attached. When they should be issued and directed like trust funds, you get so much for reaching this goal and so on. I don't get why they would just keep loaning money without signs of improvement. I guess a lot of the loans happened back when the economy was more robust. Unions as in? entitlements as in?
But that is what's they've been doing. The latest austerity package passed in Greece began to take a serious swipe at nutty union excesses. They've also raised taxes pretty meaningfully.
I think most unions and entitlements work well in the US.
It's still a problem. Look at Wisconsin. The employees of the state turned out in thousands to up-end reforms. The unions tried recalls to rig the process and get more compliant bosses. In Ohio, the unions got a ballot initiative to reverse reform there. Chicago is virtually paralyzed in terms of reforms by its unions, despite an increasingly precarious situation.
Government unions are especially dangerous because the employees have this dual role. They're employees, but then spin their hats around and become voters to decide with whom they'll be negotiating. They vote for a bigger and more costly government, not for their benefit as citizens, but for their benefit as employees.
And, given the financial global implications, expect more negative news from the markets.
If they say Yes or No to the bailout the result will be the same for the US market. In Euorope a no vote will be slightly worse. If they throw money at them the risk will be spread out, you won't know if your IRA or mutual fund just picked up some of that bad debt. Hell not even the investment companies will know. That puts fear in the market. If they say no their bankrupt and were stuck with the debt enyway. I guess I have an uninformed way of looking at it but I'm no investment genius and don't pretend to be one, just looking out for my financial ass!
Not true, a no, will tank the US and global markets...per, simple reality of a global economy.
Not that Global!
Funny, Greece backed away and US/European markets up.
Well what ever they decide, it will not be over for the people, Papandreou should have kept his mouth shut until he made up his mind. Now rhere will be more rioting because he took the decision away from the people and they will ultimately be the ones to pay! Your right the market is up today and gained all it's losses back from the day before and although I do not follow the market very closely I think it will be up over 200 pt for the week, but there still is tomorrow, what do you want to bet it's back to flat by the end of the day tomorrow?
Tis the nature of the beast. There's always been a market ebb/flow.
But the sign of a strong market is gradual increases and declines!
Well...your opinions are interesting...but it is not that simple... They actually want to shift the responsibilities to the people, so that they can later blame the people for the situation...But that is just a small point of that kind of voting... Saying "YES" or "NO" does not solve anything and does not appropriate to the authentic political role of people. Papandreou's action is antidemocratic and instead of that he should make an essential dialog with greek people. You can't ask for opinions, when you 've been destroying economy and taking important decisions in absentia of people.
I for one agree with you on this, the government is to blame for all the bad dept. The population should have been weened off government funded support and government jobs decades ago. I think his action is a democratic like approach, a dialog isn't proactive enough, it leaves doubt in the peoples minds as to whether there opinions are really herd.
What I noticed about the people in Greece is that they were really lazy.
But it's as hot as hell though!
The same stupid dumb ass complaint you lob at the OWSers'
I agree. That is only fair to the people.
Agree! occupy Greece has been hear. The streets and people had been talking.
Sorry socialists say "I would rather the country fail than to give up anything"
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/02/greece_our_debt.html
Greece is the same size economy as Colorado. Greece has 780,000 state employees and Colorado has 55,000. How sustainable is this without EU subsidies? Subsidies that will stop immediately if they vote down the deal.
There is an estimated 1.8 million people in this country that have lost their extended unemployment benefits and are still jobless. They can also be considered temporary state employees. I don't see any drastic affect to our economy, and the 1.8 million far exceeds 780,000.
I think they will simply have to build a new economy not based so heavily on government support.
Greece has almost no private sector. Everyone is either a child, retired or works for the government. What will everyone do if government goes bankrupt?
People over 65 having children? wow!
greece seems to be one of those countries that wins by losing.
italy too... just like the old man says in catch 22...
Vote No on getting a 50% off discount on all their debt???? I don't think they are stupid enough to pass up that deal as there isn't another one better. If they vote no, rest of EU will tell the greeks to go fuck themselves.
So who ultimately pays the 50% loss, the creditors, who are the creditors, the banks. The reason Greece is in the mess it's in is because it was swindled by the banks like all of us. So that's like a thief saying I'll give you back 50% of the money I stole from you!
How is it "stealing" when the money flows from the lender to the borrower? Getting paid back is now considered "stealing"? Maybe the interest is worth debate, but the original loan amount is not stealling whether one is leftists, rightist, anarachist or whatever.
It's stealing when they transfer the bad debt off of the bank's books and put it on the government's books. The government (people) pay for the banks bad investments. Capitalism on the way up; corporate socialism on the way down!
Thank You!
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/02/greece_our_debt.html
Indeed. Rothschild-usury schemes,
I went to Athens once. It was a dump. I liked Italy better.
I went Greece too. I hated Shitaly. Stupid latin Fucks.
I hope that they survive their no vote.
They have NO MONEY at all. They can forget about their debt service, but they have NO MONEY without borrowing it from the EU.
In a matter of weeks their entire social structure will be destroyed.
Someone said earlier about this, that they then would have all kinds of money to take care of their people since they would not have to pay their debts.....THAT IS SO WRONG....they have no money at all. There is no big pile of drachmas sitting around to dole out.
They will likely be kicked out of the EU, which may in itself implode from the overall shock to the system.
That would throw millions more out of work.
It is the biggest reason why everyone in the US should avail themselves of their right to keep and bear arms.
That ever comes here and money will be worthless, but ammunition will be golden.
That's a gloomy picture your painting, I'm not seeing that at all. The EU will be hurt the most by Greece's defaulting on their debt because the EU will have to make up the difference. They would rather keep up the illusion that all is find and dandy in happy land, and continue piling on the IOU's. At some point they have to face reality. Like in this country when you declare bankruptcy your not ruined, you can still work and earn a living, just you credit is affected.
They need the money and they need to tighten their belts. They are hurting the world
What makes you think it's not more of the same like in this country. They take the money most of it is funneled away to pay existing debt and to bail out government and big business and then the workers are saddled with cuts to pay for it! Jumping right back onto the merry-go-round is not a solution, it's a band-aid!
Well stated!!
It will be worse than a band aid if Greece doesn't get there fiscal house in order, take the money, and pass a serious austerity package. Socialism has failed, just look all over the world, especially Europe.
Every country that was in a dificult financial situation pre 2008 is in a dire financial situation in 2011. It's all a product of the economic downture via Banks, wall street, and bailouts.
More like a Zionist hissyfit for the Worlds failure to bully Iran and invade it. The Zionists manufactured this Finanicial crisis.
… slavery is but owning a labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan … is that capital shall control labor by controlling the wages. This can only be done by controlling the money. It will not do to allow the Greenback (Abraham Lincoln's debt-free money) as we cannot control that. -- The Hazard Circular, July 1882. (European Bank Associations)
After the assassination A. Lincoln, slowly and progressively, banksters incorporated Fed (private central bank; counterpart of ECB) in 1913 with "Federal Reserve Act" bill to institute debt-money system in the US replacing Lincoln's greenbacks (debt-free money system). Abraham Lincoln showed us "the" alternative -- debt free society, debt free government.
Government debt is fabricated. It's a Ponzi scheme called "deby-money". We the People (of all nations) didn't vote for the debt-money system, DID WE?. WE HAVEN'T EVEN TOLD, STILL NOT TOLD AND WILL NOT BE TOLD. POLITICIANS PLANTED IT INTO OUR LIVES. AS SUCH, GOVERNMENT DEBT IS THEIR DEBT, NOT OURS.
If Papandreou can break debt-money slavery for his people we will once again witness the greatness of Greek nation we have inspired and learned from them so many times in our history.
I applaud Papandreou. It's the leadership that Greek nation deserves.
If all nations would replace debt-money with sovereign money (debt-free money) at once, humanity would have very smooth transition into prosperity.
I like some of what you say, But equating owning labor to owning people is just wrong! We have learned that the true meaning of slavery is oppression, people are treated as property and are forced to work for whatever wages their owners wishes to pay them. But alot of the rest I am in agreement with! Especially you insight into debt-free and debt-money systems. Your statement “GOVERNMENT DEBT IS THEIR DEBT” hit the nail right on the head I couldn't agree more! Any reading or website you suggest for further information? Tamks for posting
The words that you point are not my words; they were in fact banksters words taken directly from <The Hazard Circular, July 1882. (European Bank Associations)> -- looks like quotes has been lost after hitting the "save" button. I didn't review it back. Sorry for the confusion.
Yes I do have many educational links. First start with this short video:
From the link below click: <How Fed Works>. It's 18 minutes movie. The final conclusion starts at 14:30. This is the place that I took the quote from. You will hear the full story from its author.
http://goldmanbanksters.com/about-us/federal-reserve
Then, to understand what debt money is you must watch <Money As Debt> (very respected educational material). It's about 50 min.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544
Next, you must know our history and our Founders' struggle with money changers. This is non-fiction one-stop documentary. It's 3 hours but worths every second. If your time is limited you may watch it over time; say in a week. BUT YOU MUST WATCH IT.
The Money Masters - Full: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs
The solution <debt-free money> is proposed as draft bill by the same authors and you will find it here:
MONETARY REFORM ACT: http://www.themoneymasters.com/monetary-reform-act
Download the PDF file for your review. It's very comprehensive.
I have more education material, but these are the essential ones. If you further need more material, you can visit my earlier post. Check REFERENCES part in the end. http://occupywallst.org/forum/to-all-ows-supporters-worldwide-one-unified-demand
For any questions, let mw know. I learned all these from #OWS posts just like you. And don't forget to educate everyone around you. Our Collective Knowledge is our Collective Power.
Good luck.
I will certainly have a look at all the links might take a week or two!
Thanks much and will pass them on!