Forum Post: I am learning about your movement
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 15, 2011, 6:15 p.m. EST by tedscrat
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I have read a fairly comprehensive list of demands from at least one individual regarding the goal of your movement. I have many problems with your approach, but I am still studying. I am, I guess, in the top 10% of wage owners and my politics seem to be leaning more to the right. Do you want a bigger government or smaller government? It seems we can't afford the government we have now. A sound money base sounds like the gold standard, which has a lot of merit. I am in favor of a much simpler tax code. However, I loathe the rhetoric right now about everyone paying "their fair share." Who sets the standard for fair share? How about a flat tax rate across the board irregardless of how much you make?
The rich are not the enemy and the poor are not to be pitied.
Just some basic questions. Tell me your views and we can talk.
A "flat tax" is just another giveaway to the rich. There's a reason for progressive taxing. Do the math.
So the rich should be penalized for being rich? If tax loopholes are removed, a flat tax will necessarily mean that the rich will pay more.
The rich should pay more. It's not about penalizing the rich, it's about being fair. The rich people have a massive unfair advantage.
Take away the loopholes, 10% (as an example) flat rate across the spectrum. Problem solved
Flat tax will hurt the poor. Its not fair that the rich pay more in terms of % but I can see the reasoning. If i were rich i would pay 5% more. No big deal.
Many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. In this, sequence is key.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.
So please JOIN the 2nd link so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
What we need more than anything is an amendment to get the money out of politics.
Hi Tedscrat - You can look over some cross over demands between the Tea Party & OWS here : http://teaoccupyunited.com/75609541
I think I know where your coming from in what is the message ? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reazEr_AIBk
the reason we cannot afford the government we have right now is due to the ridiculous tax loopholes and tax breaks we give to the wealthily/ mega rich and giant corporations. we want to regulate these so that companies like GE, who paid nothing ( zero dollars) in taxes to the u.s. and people like warren buffet, who famously cited he pays less in taxes than his secretary...actually pay a percentage that is the same as the rest of us. There are so many loopholes and ways to avoid paying taxes.
I love people such as yourself, who want a genuine and open discussion about the ideas. Honestly, the movement itself has no beliefs. So, as an individual I will answer your question, but keep in mind that occupy is not about specifics, it is about awareness. The specifics will come after everyone is aware of the problem and is ready to participate in finding a solution. There are many methods proposed to bring us all together to reach such a consensus, and this is one of them: http://declarationof99.wikidot.com/
To answer your very intelligent and politely phrased questions: Bigger or smaller government? I want smaller government. The less power government has, the less they interfere with our lives and the less incentive businesses have to lobby for influence. If there is nothing to give away, how can they abuse it? You are correct in stating we can not afford the government we have now. Government should be minimum. The Libertarian motto is "Minimum government, Maximum freedom." So long as you are not hurting anyone else, you should be able to do whatever the heck you want.
The gold standard is a great idea but it will take WAY too much transitioning to make it happen. I'm not at all against the idea of getting to that point, but I think ANY liquid-asset backed currency is better than what we have now. We also have to take away the Federal Reserve's right to print money, which devalues our currency even more. Part of the problem is that everything is based on making banks money. The FIAT system, the FDIC, the Federal Reserve. It is all based around allowing banks to loan more money than they have, protecting them from risk, and then giving them control over the currency and the markets through interest rate manipulation. This system has got to go.
Should you pay your fair share? Well, we should all pay our fair share, but I am with you on not trusting anyone else to define that range. I think that punishing corporations for making a lot of money drives them overseas, where they are treated better by foreign governments, and then we lose jobs. The irony is that we then blame the corporations, instead of the government, for losing the jobs. Yes, its immoral to outsource jobs from your home country, but in the end we must respect the nature of the beast. A business is in business to make money, otherwise they'd be a charity, not a corporation. The trickle down effect has been so distorted by government intervention that I don't even know what to think of it anymore. In the end, I do believe a flat tax would be better than the current tax code.
I do agree that the rich are not the enemy simply because they are rich, but many of our enemies DO seem to be concentrated within the richest class of the world. That is no coincidence. I disagree that the poor are not to be pitied. Many of them are poor because they got a bad break, and the system doesn't make second chances easy. We should all have a big enough heart to offer them whatever help we can, not because of a government mandate, but because of our conscience.
Tax & fiscal policy are important points for debate. I most certainly disagree with you (consider that America currently has the highest levels of income and wealth inequality of any advanced nation), but the more central focus of OWS is that the domination of our political system by a plutocratic/oligarchic elite has undermined democracy. Government big or small is a separate issue from government bought and sold.
Government will have pull no matter what. In the late 18th century, only white male land owners had the fight to vote, because they were the predominant producers (in my opinion), In today's country, everyone who votes (through pacs or corporate lobbies down to the individual) has a vested interest in who goes into office. It makes sense that an individual who currently pays no tax is going to vote for an individual who will pass the bill to someone else.
Nobody pays no taxes: http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/jmadison/28292/the-47-myth-just-who-pays-income-tax-anyway
The problem IMO is not voting, the problem is massive campaign contributions that give the power to those with the most wealth, which subverts democracy.
I have worked my ass off for 25 years. I wa sin the Army for ten years. I was a small biz owner, commercial painter, and when the bozo's killed the residential real estate market they also killed the commercial real estate market. I have no work now, there is no equity in my house(25K down, 10 years into my mortgage, never late once) , and there is no way I will ever make that up. I was laid off in Nov and have received Pell grants to go back to college. But why? Just so the corrupt system can build another bubble and rob me blind again. There has to be a better way, we the peeps can figure it out w/o the banks involvement and without the pols screwing it up.
How is your equity wiped out on a home purchased 10 years ago? The real estate collapse is bad, but prices generally went back to where they were in 2003-2004.
Who do you blame for the problem?
Equal blame. Guv made it easy for banks to rob us. Dergulation of the commercial banks, turned our mortgages into gambling chits, if they would just refund my down payment, 25K, I would leave, no hard feelings. I caan do better not being in the system. Jamaica sounds nice.
Politicians in DC.