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Forum Post: How many of the 99% have money invested in the Stock Market

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 23, 2011, 2:50 p.m. EST by FrogWithWings (1367)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

in any form or fashion?

Is it just completely inconceivable that the majority of people could contain their own greed and simply remove their money from the reach of the wealth extracting paper magicians?

62 Comments

62 Comments


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[-] 2 points by Kite (79) 2 years ago

Though your question was 'stock market' I think you are really asking about all the markets. The answer is nearly everyone. Even if it isn't in an account in your own name, some piece of your financial life is tied up in the markets, equity & otherwise.

If you have any kind of insurance, you should be aware that the premiums are not and never have been sufficient to cover claims. If you or a loved one are fortunate enough to collect a pension, you should be aware that employers never simply set aside a pile of cash in a passbook savings account at George Bailey's local bank. All of that money is invested in the markets. Even state pension funds are invested in the equity and bond markets.

[-] 3 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Thanks, I appreciate you pointing out these oversights and increasing my knowledge.

[-] 1 points by homer001 (9) 2 years ago

Everything is in my name and I'm way short. Reflects near term market view and hope for society.

[-] 1 points by bill1102inf2 (357) 2 years ago

Im a full time trader, part of the 99%, I use a system designed to enrich the 1% to extract $$$ for my family and I am told that I am at a severe disadvantage. Good, thats just how I like it, Im ex army infantry too. Got a problem with that?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well I don't care. Am I supposed to be impressed because you lack the intellect to have been an officer or the wits to trade your way up to even 2% status?

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

It bought me a car. I love the stock market.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26179) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Poser unmasks? kingscrossection I thought you said that you are 16. If you are 16 its not good to put your credibility into the toilet by lying.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Not to sound sarcastic or anything but are you having a bad day? I've never said anything like that to you?

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Actually two days ago. My mistake sorry.

[-] 1 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Not at all. I've been working with my dad in the stock market since I was ten. He gave me the money recently to do with what I wanted so I invested and bought a car. 17 yesterday by the way:)

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I built several, I love my brains and hands although I'll readily admit I use machines manufactured by corporations, just as I am incorporated. I just own all my stock.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Interesting perspective.

We the People are the ones who consume products produced by corporations, and the ability of the little guy to buy some stock is one of the only mechanisms available to the 99% to participate in a capitalist system.

Wouldn't a utopian system pretty much have all companies owned by the 99% ?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well, just looking at a publicly owned Walmart is a prime example of the failure of publicly owned corporations to everyone except those who own it.

Average wage of 8.91 per hour while the CEO makes nearly 10,000 per hour. They've recently cut hours for a large percentage in order to knock them out of benefits on top of not paying them a living wage.

Harley is another prime example but from a different perspective. They went from private ownership to publicly owned and then started busting away at the Unions/American Jobs in 1973 by initially using Japanese components on their machines, from there they've gone to a very high percentage of imported components to the point of now having manufacturing of "The American Legend" in Communist China.

Many factories have closed in the USA and many jobs have been banished to other parts of the world, all in the name of dividends, maximum profits and greed.

I don't know about merely 99%, but, privately owned, with workers having a vested interest seems far better at serving the interests of a nation and sustained economic growth.

I believe a pivotal point came when the owners decided the middle class had risen high enough and their continued ascent would pose a dangerous threat to their clear agenda.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

All you're really doing is indicting the moral character of the 99% who hold corporate stock. They/we have shown that greed is not the exclusive preserve of the 1%. We the People have been perfectly willing to pursue the "greed is good" mantra without using our voice as shareholders to demand the companies we own act in a socially responsible fashion.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Of course that is what I am doing!

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 2 years ago

Not true.

The little guy can save money, or borrow money, or find investors, and create a company of his own to participate in the capitalist system.

The little guy can whittle wood, or paint, or build, or sew, or design etc items that are "sold" in a capitalism system.

The little guy can collect items of value and resell them as part of the capitalist system.

The little guy can mow lawns, do childcare, run errands, or do ANYTHING that results in the exchange of money for either a product or a service-and he's participating in the capitalist system.

"Wouldn't a utopian system pretty much have all companies owned by the 99% ?"

Only if every single person in that utopia WANTED to own a company. (and it technically won't be a utopia if 1% of the people are excluded or unhappy will it?)

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

OK, I should have said "all manufacturing companies."

Many of the products We the People so cherish require large capital investments. Consider the fact that a new semiconductor fab can cost nearly $1 billion dollars.

The little guy can certainly start a small business, but he can't start a large company without pooling his resources with those of his fellow man.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 2 years ago

And what if I, one of his fellow men, does not WANT to start or run a large company? Of any kind? It will not be a utopia for ME, or others like me, if we are FORCED to contribute to something we do not wish to.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

[Sigh] You appear to be willfully misinterpreting my comments. I was supporting the corporation and the idea of stock markets as a way for the little guy to start and participate in business. I never said everyone should be forced to buy stock in anything.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 2 years ago

More you not saying what you mean perhaps? You said that buying stock "is one of the only mechanisms" which implies limited mechanisms. If you had said "buying stock is ONLY one of the mechanisms" it would imply many mechanisms.

Your comment about utopia was separated from your first comment, which implies a different thought so I replied to that comment separately to. Sorry to have confused you.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

"Nationally, stock ownership stands at only about 54 percent"

[-] 2 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well, the whole practice of extracting wealth (investing) from the actual production of goods or service of others who work, ESPECIALLY when no value is added or such exercises result in higher prices for all, are truly counterproductive to our society.

The 54% number is nice, a better number is the dollar amount of wealth which is extracted every year. We know who gets most of it and we know who pays.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I hear ya. I was always told "investing" your money was the responsible thing to do. I am not so sure of this now.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I have since I was old enough to make my first dollar. I ventured out and tried the market many years ago, I did well but, realized what the real deal was and did not require having to hit the wall to see I was lucky.

So invest in things you can hold and control. It's do-able, just a bit slower.

I recommend exotic white metals, especially of the high temperature and anti-corrosive variety. Also amazing are fun toys and their fodder.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Inconceivable? I don't know. My utopian mind says that yes, we should be able to survive just fine IF we develop a different mindset and a different lifestyle. I liquidated all but an IRA. I'm not suggesting anyone do that though.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well don't you see that everyone busy with the stock market wealth extracting process is contributing their wealth to those who already have it all, or extracting wealth off the backs of those who actually work and produce? I'm all ears to learn how such endeavors add value to any product or service, or even make them more affordable.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Oh yes, I do indeed see and I totally agree. I could literally feel my heart rate and blood pressure rise anytime that I would need to speak to my greedy a&& financial advisor. The man actually said to me one time, ' YOU need to start trusting others with your money". hmmmm if that wasn't a blaze orange flag I don't know what was. Why should I trust anyone with my money or anything else that relates to my security? Here's what I did but again, I'm not recommending this: After I liquidated, I loaned about half that money to two small businesses who could not get bank loans. I charged them 6 percent interest which is a heck of a lot more than I was earning on my money. I realize that may seem like a high amount but given that the risk for me is much higher I would not loan it for anything less. The balance and interest is due in 18 months. I also had my CPA draw up a contract for me ( he's an attorney too).
This works for me and I'd be thrilled if we could all unify and live in harmony assisting one another in this manner. I borrowed 5K from one of my customers years ago when I was just starting out and I paid it back in services over the course of 12 months. Worked out great. Again, a contract was signed. This loan didn't reflect on my credit score but it sure beat having to deal with banks and I only needed the money to buy some equipment. If people could become worthy of others' trust then I think we could function as a sustainable civilization without Wall Street. But, again, people would need to be reconditioned. We have a population that truly believes their security is hinged to wall street. Anyone with a grain of sense should know that the only reason the Dow is up is because of christmas sales. Do you remember when GWB would give his state of address after every holiday and declare how well the economy was doing? I don't know how others feel but I have felt completely on the edge of a cliff since 2001. There are ways to create enormous wealth in the market if finance is your thang. It's not my thang and I have no interest in spending my life focused on money. My grandmother who was uneducated and came from poverty managed to turn my grandfather's paycheck into millions by using the market. And, no, I never got a penny of it thanks to a greedy mother and brother who are bankers and real estate gurus. We know Wall street lacks any ethics but imagine being a family member who gets totally screwed by their parent. It hurts even though I really don't care about the money.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I still find it amazing that many are exactly what they are protesting.... and don't even know it. I am very well aware that I deviate very far from the norm, without being a Mennonite. I have properties, shiny fast vehicles, and fun toys, but, I don't finance a thing. If I borrow money, I do so from real people with simple terms and also do the same for other like minded people.

I made it 40 years without ever using a bank to finance anything, once I did, I was done with it in less than 10 years and suspect it very unlikely I'll ever go there again.

Fawk bank credit and all that crap, I have more than I need or will ever use.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

PS...I was just thinking this morning about how my sister and I both chose inexpensive wedding rings ( many moons ago) when we married because we thought it was insane to begin a marriage in debt. We both chose simple blue sapphires- maybe a hundred dollars at most. I hate diamonds anyhoo. But, I have a more updated pearl that I wear today. Anyway, then I began to think of all the folks who are getting married this weekend and spending 10,000 dollars on flowers!!!! FLOWERS! ( and even more on cake!) This is the very kind of thinking that has led to our economic demise.
I will admit that even though I was quite content with my sapphire and still very content with my pearl that I've wondered if I had some sort of defective personality or if I was intellectually challenged since I seemed to be on a totally different path than many of the folks that I know. Seriously. I've only known one other woman besides my sister who didn't choose diamonds. Can you enlighten me as to the secret reason why diamonds are a girl's best friend?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Yes! Because the DeBeers are marketing geniuses and have managed to keep it reasonably unknown that there are enough still in the ground for every person on the earth to own 1,000,000 of them.

Several stones, even created ones, can be had, for nearly the cost of dirt, which are much livelier and more hypnotic upon which to gaze!

I personally benefit from their ability to cut very hard metals at a reasonable price leaving behind a excellent surface finish. However, lasers, pressurized water, plasma arc and other methods cut metals quite well, if not better than diamonds.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Really? Where are those diamonds, screw the holidays, let's head to Africa! hahahaha

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Yesssssss, a sparkly bloodlust.

I'll sharpen the Bowie knives and clean all the long guns!

That is some crazy stuff to garnish the pomp and circumstance of a coin toss marriage.

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Sounds like fun! I just hope we don't become greedy and attempt harming one another. Could we be peaceful cave-dwelling pals?

...and a coin toss it is. We forgot about the dress. The dress that MUST resemble the most popular blue blood's wedding attire. Ah, that's the problem...everyone wants to be like someone else. I don't think it ever occurred to me that I should be like anyone else and that's probably why I spent so much time in detention as a young student.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Sign me up! However, despite me being quite alpha, I've evolved beyond the use of clubs and hair pulling to obtain consortium!

[-] 1 points by Gillian (1842) 2 years ago

Hey Frog! Merry Christmas!
All of us are guilty of insulating ourselves and our behavior from the rest of the world ( at some point). What I mean is that we are often too close to the forest to see the trees and lose awareness of our mindset and habitual behaviors.
It's ironic that you mention the Mennonites because I always wanted to be Amish or a Quaker since I was a young teen ( tween I think they are called today..hahahha).
I actually live a very simple life without a lot of toys. I prefer nature to nurture if you catch my meaning. I love my dogs, love my gardens and love my friends. I have nice furnishings like antiques but I couldn't care any less about having a super nice car or TV. I just need a functional and practical vehicle to get me from point A to B. I don't have credit card debt but I do have CC to use in an emergency. You should write a book on sustainable financing. Seriously. I think if someone actually taught others how to be resourceful in a more sustainable and ethical way, people might actually begin to rethink their spending and borrowing behavior. Heck if Kevin Trudeau can convince millions of folks every day that he has all the solutions that anyone needs to be healthy, wealthy and wise, then surely you can!

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 2 years ago

Yep, The 1% are the stock market - Bernie Madoff concocted the Nasdaq, and was caught...Shouldn't that tell us all something??? I think Frog I agree

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Think about how many bought into, 'let us hold your money and we'll promise you this much for it after you reach the age of retirement'.... 'we'll make it prohibitively expensive for you to cash out early'..... fine print.... as we really need to bury many with our exponentially amazing fractional tricks and really long shot derivative gambles while we're not laundering drug money for various cartels.

How is this any different than what has been done with money paid in to the Social Security system? You can't get it back when you want it, much less need it, without a major battle against those holding your money and who also make their own rules.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 2 years ago

And the real question, where is the money in the alleged trust fund if we really wanted to know? It is probably already short big time.or gone....They threaten social security payments, military pay, and government shutdown every time there is a debt ceiling vote....So possibly one of two things... The money is already gone and must keep getting borrowed, or it is the collateral if we default on the debt....One of the two must be the case...

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

The last official word from Newt Gengrinch was that the 2 bazillion buck IOU was sitting in the Federal Reserve and wisely invested in this nation's debt. I believe SS owns 20% of this nation's debt. Sounds like one hell of a deal to me!

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 2 years ago

Well for those wondering Donald Trump is going to run as independant "3rd" party which will steal votes from any Republican selected so Obama is probably in again.. Isn't it convienet the debt ceiling and budget were also carried out for one more year of government operation....Just enough to hold things till next "election" the whole thing is rigged. I wonder how much Donnie boy is getting paid by the dems to run.... He is a business man and would sell out... Newt Gingrich, I would never vote for anyone who did what he did to his wife who dying of cancer...would you trust anyone like that to represent those running the show or "run the show"? .....

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

This is interesting! Trump a DEMOCRAT?!?!?! Wow!

"Despite his announcement in May that he would not seek the Republican presidential nomination, the Donald has kept alive speculation about a bid for the White House this year -- as he did in 2000, 2004 and 2008.

Mr Trump's allegiance to the Republican party didn't last long; he only joined in 2009. He had been a registered Democrat since 2001. "

I think his running will not get Obama re-elected, but, who knows how DC's Vaudeville antics will play out between now and then.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I have far more serious issues with Newt Theifgrench than what he's done with his pecker. I find him to be one of the most audacious and reprehensible humans on the planet, if he's actually human. If he were ever convicted of a capitol crime, I'd donate the quarter sawn wood and nails for his cross.

I see Donald is "eying the independent spot"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078221/Donald-Trump-leaves-Republican-party--Is-just-disgusted-considering-presidential-run-again.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/12/donald-trump-bolts-republican-party-eyeing-other-2012-options/

Maybe Donald will have a stroke. That any Americans would even remotely consider voting for him is very sad.

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 2 years ago

Donnie was out there to add confusion to the mix, and he will continue doing so. The masses forget about him, good points Frog about his past. Newt, I have nothing good to say; as the saying goes - If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Taking the high road, I will remain silent, and my silence speaks for itself...However, for those "reptilian" conspiracy theorists out there, he may have merit to qualify as such as he is not human, or at the very least is lacking a soul......

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Yes, I think OWSies should never try anything as complicated as the stock market. I know anything you guys don't understand you believe is evil but leave the stock market to those of us who understand economics and can use it to take better care of our families.

Unfortunately, if you attended school in the last 25 years you've been indoctrinated against using the tools that exist in America to improve yourself and have been inculcated with an entitlement mentality as evidenced by you efforts here.

No, the market is way too spooky for uneducated lefties.

[-] 1 points by demcapitalist (977) 2 years ago

You're kidding right? if you know even the most simple basics of the market you should be able to see how the banking laws written during Greenspan's fed tenure created this crisis. Anyone involved in the markets as a retail investor should be involved in OWS to try to return to some fiscally conservative laws that would work for everyone. If you think I don't understand the markets and how the 1% have manipulated them, try me.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well, I understand it and made out well when I played. It's been 20 years and I pulled all mine out and invested in shooting iron. Does the money magically appear or does it ultimately come from somebody's labor directly, or in the form of their lower wages and reduced benefits?

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 2 years ago

Even the OWS Hemp Shoe company would need capital, and the ability to issue shares of the company to the 99% is much more ethical and fair to the 99% than obtaining capital from bankers alone.

Capital gains, better thought of as "what I get for putting the effort into this," are what attracts investors. Return on Investment in a business must be higher than 100% safe investments such as Treasuries in direct proportion to the risk, or there will be no investment, no business, and no jobs.

Wages, also best though of as "what I get for putting the effort into this," are simply the return on investment of labor by employees. Just as with capital, employees expect a certain return on investment for their labor, and the company has to pay that amount to attract the labor needed.

A viable business is one that provides a product or service that is in demand by We The People and returns adequate profit to those investing both capital and labor. The term 'adequate' is subjective. Pay too little to investors, and you'll have no capital to build and grow your business. Pay too little too employees, and you'll have no labor to operate your business.

All businesses seek to reduce their costs in order to improve their viability. They seek to pay as little as possible for both their capital and labor, but they never pay less than demanded by investors and employees. They can't.

I suggest you drop the us-vs-them tone when discussing labor and capital.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well, one thing that seems absolute, as these mega-corporations grow due to being so damned viable, is that the concentration of wealth does tend to gravitate towards fewer and fewer people, which does not seem to serve humankind well at all.

It is interesting to compare the differences between thriving Luddites and thriving mega-corps. Perhaps there is no possible way to obtain common ground between such polar opposite economic models.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Of the many flaws in liberal understanding of economics the erroneous assumption that the money supply is a zero sum game is probably the most egregious. For some unknown reason, you seem to believe there is a finite pot of money and if I get a dollar that's a dollar that is gone from the pot and the available amount of money has been reduced by one dollar.

The reality is, money does magically appear, where do you think Obama's 2 trillion of quantitative easing came from? If the economy is expanding then the fed introduces new money by increasing the lending power available to banks and keeping rates livable. Companies who are growing, hiring, expanding are able to go get this new money from the banks in form of loans to pay your workers, vendors and then repay the loan from increased dollar volume. This increases the money supply so everyone gets exactly what they have coming to them, no one gets screwed out of anything.

LOL, but if the left accepts that reality then how will they be able to use crap like OWS to further destabilize the country? :)

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Whereas some say the flaw with that reality is the opposite situation in which each monetary unit in existence becomes more valuable is a better way for sustainable and more natural growth.

I'm opposed to fractional banking as well as the clear results of the stock market and publicly owned corporations. It is obvious that it doesn't work out well for working people.

I have a pretty good understanding of how our system works and how to exploit it to my advantage or gain. However, continue to enlighten me as to why fractional banking practices and other much more risky financial practices are truly a good idea.

I'm open minded.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Sadly, your response indicates the depth of your lack of understanding of basic economics and that understanding is important if you truly want to make a difference.

You toss out buzzwords like fractional banking as though they are talismans but it's clear you can't make a case from A to B as to how the working class is harmed by our financial system. The "system" in America has elevated the working man to heights unknown in human history. Don't you guys ever look out the door?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well, perhaps you have no understanding of the actual cost. You, any real property you think you own, and all property having abstract titles or MSO's are merely collateral and indeed owned by other than yourself.

Have you ever studied the bankruptcies of our nation, and the terms?

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

I think it's pretty evident who has no understanding of how things actually work. You have accepted without question the proposals of those who wish harm to our system, you parrot the buzzwords; actual cost, fractional banking, abstract titles, MSOs and your use of them indicates you have no actual understanding of what you are saying.

You are a leftist and as such you operate on emotion. You have a burning belief in you which precludes the necessity of addressing reality in relation to your goals. That is crystal clear in your responses to my posts, you never address the content you only respond with rote statements that substitute for actual thought.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

that's a first, I don't believe anyone has ever accused me of being "leftist"

However, I may not understand what tight fisted and less than open message you are trying to deliver by telling me what I don't understand, when simply laying it out would serve you better, but, I do understand our nation's history very well and it would appear that your doubts of this more likely reflect that you do not.

I bet you do not know why our nation's capital, for the first 80+ years, changed from Philadelphia to Washington DC, was it merely on a lark?

Truth, it was part of the 1871 Bankruptcy terms of reorganization. I don't give a ratsass if you have a PhD in economics, you very well could have and never know the terms and all the following Republic destroying consequences. Our nation has never even paid the civil war debt, so much for your magic money.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Again, you substitute rote statements for thought. Apparently, your masters have convinced you that their interpretation of historical events have absolute relevance to their interpretation of what you need to believe today. I say their interpretation because you show no evidence of independent thought and everything you say is prepackaged by your masters. You are but a tiny cog in the spin machine.

As far as my "message" I have been quite clear in my responses, none of which you have actually engaged. I assume because it's simply too painful to have to consider the fallacy of your (your masters) position.

Why don't you show me exactly how the working man is harmed by our system? And I mean by thought process, not quoting some esoteric historical perspective or stuff you have been told. Show me some thinking, not parroting.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I think it would be interesting for a large percentage of people to pull out of the markets and banks as well. It would be as interesting as watching the masses bring a successful 1040 and schedule C tax revolt.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I'll pass. You're an ignorant khunt.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Liberals do tend to project. :)

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

You are riotously funny, I'm hardly liberal, DC fag.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

Ah, the inevitable descent into anger and name calling. What must it be like to so predictable?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

It says after starting right out it's gate doing exactly what you are now thinking means a victory for your hypocritical self. Your first reply is one of seething sarcasm, you powerless and ineffective object of uselessness! From there the name calling grew and grew!

Yeah, projectionist and delusional.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

One wonders who a rational observer would determine who has proved to be powerless, ineffective and useless in this exchange? :)