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Forum Post: How do you Prevent Government Employees from becoming Corrupted over a 30-40 year career?

Posted 7 years ago on Feb. 14, 2013, 4:54 p.m. EST by Middleaged (5140)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I believe you have to make sure that empoyees are trained to:

1) Respect and Defend the US Constitution
2) Resist Conflict of Interests
3) Defend Against the Influence of Money
4) Defend Against Networking like the Old Boy Network (This is probably the hardest to prove and defend against)
5) Teach & Warm about the dangers of Relationships of Government Employees & Contacts in Industry

Of course in the real world a Congressman gets caught breaking the law and the result is more training and guidance put out to the whole federal workforce. It could be receiving gifts, receiving lobby money, or misuse of campaign funds ... the end result is not a change in behavior for congressmen.

The Federal Government has a "No Fear" program to protect federal employees who become Whistleblowers. Just visit the DOJ website. How do you think that program is working so far?

There are many Dangers of Relationships of Government Employees & Contacts in Industry. This is called getting in bed together. Employees treat industry representatives very nice and very well within the current ethics guidelines. But behind the nice behavior the employee would like to get a promotion and a new Job with one of the Government Suppliers or in the Industry he works with.

Conflict of Interest

Regulatory Capture (see William K. Black)

Criminogenic Environment (see William K. Black)

Revolving Door with Industry, moving from government job to career with Industry previously being regulated, or as in banking - moving from the bank to the Department of Treasury, Federal Reserve Branch, or the Board of Governors Federal Reserve


1) Get money out of Politics, provide free national, state, and county air time on Radio, TV, Cable for candidates in all elections, free air time, free access to political debates, open agenda for debates

2) Break Up TBTF Companies, Large telecoms, Large Media, Large Oil, Large banks, Large Insurance, Large everything by market share, international market share, or total capitalization

3) Life time employment for Government Employees to keep them from falling under the hypnotic power of Industry and industry jobs.

4) Back Federal Lawsuits with Large Court Funds or the Entire US Treasury to go after Large Banks which have the power to fight in court for 10 years, be willing to go to court rather than settle for a fine for money laundering or fraud, or rate setting, or accounting fraud, etc.

5) Strengthen Independent Media/Press, so that they will investigate the government, government deals, and corporations.

6) Stregthen Independent Audit Agencies, mandatory rotation of agencies, rotation of representatives every year or two

7) Strengthen US ratings Agencies for financial stregth & fitness of our corporations, don't let them be paid by the corporations they are rating,

8) Eliminate Shell Companies, stricter guidance for corporations and the accounting rules

9) Regulate the Shadow Banking Sector known as Private Bankings and Regulate Derivatives

10) Prohibit Bankers from working at the Federal Reserve or at the US Treasury, prohibit bankers from working in the exectuve branch of the federal government.

11) Start Real Investigations of War and Federal Government

12) Start Real Investigations and national discussions about the influence of money on Economist, universities, and other institutions.



Read the Rules
[-] 1 points by WSmith (2698) from Cornelius, OR 7 years ago

Let's worry about the To Big To Fail Banks FIRST!!!

Worst offenders and all that stuff!

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Well I'm trying to teach you some principals. I'm trying to give you a basis of ethics to grow from.

We all learn in different ways. There must be many paths. There is much to learn. I learn by surfing, posting, writing, thinking, and creating.

Be sure to read this post again. This stuff is real. None of that above is made up stuff or guess work. That is as real as it gets.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

Almost everything in you goals should start here:
Constitutional Amendment XXVIII Introduced in Congress
Ensuring Rights for People, Not Corporations
by Rep. Rick Nolan (D-MN) & Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI) Feb 11, 2013


Section 1. [Artificial Entities Such as Corporations Do Not Have Constitutional Rights] The rights protected by the Constitution of the United States are the rights of natural persons only. Artificial entities established by the laws of any State, the United States, or any foreign state shall have no rights under this Constitution and are subject to regulation by the People, through Federal, State, or local law. The privileges of artificial entities shall be determined by the People, through Federal, State, or local law, and shall not be construed to be inherent or inalienable.

Section 2. [Money is Not Free Speech] Federal, State, and local government shall regulate, limit, or prohibit contributions and expenditures, including a candidate's own contributions and expenditures, to ensure that all citizens, regardless of their economic status, have access to the political process, and that no person gains, as a result of their money, substantially more access or ability to influence in any way the election of any candidate for public office or any ballot measure. Federal, State, and local government shall require that any permissible contributions and expenditures be publicly disclosed. The judiciary shall not construe the spending of money to influence elections to be speech under the First Amendment.

This responds to Hundreds of Local & State Resolutions Calling for a “We the People” Amendment - The movement for constitutional reforms that would end what organizers call “corporate rule”. Reps, Nolan & Pocan joined Move to Amend by announcing their sponsorship of the “We the People” Amendment, which clearly and unequivocally states that: Rights recognized under the Constitution belong to human beings only, and not to government-created artificial legal entities such as corporations and limited liability companies; and
Political campaign spending is not a form of speech protected under the First Amendment.

In making the announcement, lead sponsor Rep. Rick Nolan, said: “It’s time to take the shaping and molding of public policy out of corporate boardrooms, away from the corporate lobbyists, and put it back in city halls – back with county boards and state legislatures – and back in the Congress where it belongs.”

Ben Manski, a spokesperson for Move to Amend, agreed, saying: “Today, members of Congress join a movement that insists on the fundamental equality of all Americans, and that rejects the idea that the corporate class should have special protections against We the People.” The Move to Amend coalition was formed in 2009 in preparation for the Supreme Court’s 2010 Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission decision.
Today, the coalition of nearly 260,000 people and hundreds of organizations has helped to pass nearly 500 resolutions in municipalities and local governments across the country calling on the state and federal governments to adopt this amendment. The Move to Amend coalition makes a point of differentiating themselves from the other proposals that have come forward in response to Citizens United. "In every single community where Americans have had the opportunity to call for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw corporate personhood, they have seized it and voted yes overwhelmingly, stated George Friday, Move to Amend spokesperson. “The Citizens United decision is not the cause, it is a symptom. We must remove big money and special interests from the legal and political process entirely."

If you want to understand Citizens United & Corporate Personhood & the Amendment Process OWS Amendment site: http://corporationsarenotpeople.webuda.com 70+ videos & 40+ documents on this issue

Support this bill Write & email your congresspeople


[-] 0 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I can't find the Bill Number, but looks like it was reintroduced on 22 January by McGovern.... So far called Campaign Finance Reform..The people's rights amendment.


CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM -- (House of Representatives - January 22, 2013)

[Page: H182]

The SPEAKER pro tempore. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. McGovern) for 5 minutes.

Recently, I joined 18 of my colleagues in a letter to Chairman Goodlatte and Ranking Member Conyers of the Judiciary Committee requesting a hearing to explore constitutional amendment proposals in response to Citizens United and related cases. I hope that we will have an opportunity to discuss these issues in the coming weeks and months. This is, after all, the people's House, and this is the place where we ought to discuss the concerns of the people.

Members of the Democratic Caucus have been working to reform our campaign finance system and restore the rights of the American people that were undermined by the Citizens United decision. We have sponsored and cosponsored legislation to address the growing influence of money in our democratic process.

Today, I'm introducing two constitutional amendments. The people's rights amendment would overturn Citizens United and put a stop to the growing trend of corporations claiming First Amendment rights. This amendment not only addresses corporate rights as they pertain to campaign finance, but is broader in scope to clarify that corporations are not people with constitutional rights. Importantly, my amendment clearly protects the people's rights of freedom of speech, freedom of press, free exercise of religion, freedom of association, and all other such rights of the people.

My second amendment advances the fundamental principle of political equality for all by empowering Congress and the States with the right to regulate political spending. It will allow Congress to pass campaign finance reform legislation that will withstand constitutional challenges.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

McGovern had an Amendment last year - I think this is his new version. The Nolan / Pocan is different
I hope to get bill numbers & will post when I do.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Yes, could be the Senate hasn't resubmitted the bill this Session yet. Probably couldn't hurt if more people ask for the Bill Number and Ask their Congressperson to Support the Peoples Rights Amendment to take peoplehood from Corporations.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

Nolan's office told me HJR29

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

You got it. Dated 14 Feb 2013. H.J. Res. 29 Nolan / Pocan Introduced in the House of Representatives. Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States providing that the rights extended by the Constitution are the rights of natural persons only.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113hjres29ih/pdf/BILLS-113hjres29ih.pdf (Here is, you were right on the Money)

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collection.action?collectionCode=BILLS (search Bills)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/ (search link)

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

There were over a dozen that were in the 2012 session
I hope all of those supporters switch to this one

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 7 years ago

Those are great ideas. The only thing I would change is replace the Fed with a gov't agency and give congress oversite.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 7 years ago

A fundamental "amendment" issue is to do things in amendment that MUST be done by amendment.
The fed was created by laws & should be changed by laws.
As long as the House has a R majority, nothing can get done.
As long as the Senate has 40 Rs + filibuster, nothing can get done.
What can we do about that?

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 7 years ago

Just like any issue today the key is to get money out of politics so we can get legislators that represent us. Once the gov't is back in our hands I suspect there will be a decrease in filibusters.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Thanks. I guess you are looking at number 10 above. You are probably following my thoughts pretty well.

Obviously, if we bring in managers & Executives from Goldman Sachs to Work in the US Treasury, White House, OMB, GAO, SEC, FDIC, OCC, NCUA, ... and the Financial Crimes Division of the FBI ... Well then bankers Culture may predominate and they Litterally Rule our government though influence, informal power, stature, status, and a kind of cult of personality.

It sould be possible to do a kind of Anthrological Study of the Federal Agencies and prove that Bankers from Wall Street have grafted their culture there.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 7 years ago

I would be interested to see how much their culture infuses the agencies. It makes sense when our regulators have worked or plan to work for the companies they regulate. I've considered how that causes them to let the corrosponding fields getaway with what they want. Your probably not going to get that cushy job if you imprisoned the previous CEO. If what you suggest about cultural influence is true we will need to do more then just appoint someone honest to head the agencies. Maybe even complete retraining and replacement of the ones who don't understand they are there to protect us. That will be much more challenging then just replacing the ones who are bought out.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

We have to break down into pieces, if we look at solutions ... and it actually helps to educate and maybe bring more people into the discussion.

1) We have a Council which trains bank examiners, trains banks, and is responsible for vigous oversight of banks and responsible for making sure strong regulations are in place. The council is made up of directors from various federal agencies like Treasury, OCC, NCUA FDIC, Governor of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, and Chairman of the State Liaison Committee.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/12/34/3303 (Financial Institutions Examination Council)

2) Bill Black was a regulator during the Reagan Administration. Following the S&L crisis, Bill Black and his team put over 1,000 elite criminals in prison. According to Bill Black, our crisis was 70 times the magnitude of the S&L crisis, and there was a commensurate amount of fraud leading to it. We have seen no meaningful investigations or prosecutions.

Back Bill Black is a project to get Obama to appoint a strong Regulator to bring Justice back into the Financial System. Visit the Website to read the short Intro. It is well written.


3) I would suggest that there is a culture of envy, admiration, and "Love" for bankers in Government. These are the money people. All projects need government finance people to telling how things can be done, how money can be programed, where the money comes from, and to explain how in Washington support them, and fights for their money. So what is the difference between a government finance expert & a Wall Street Bank. This is capitalism. Money runs all things. And if you are clumsey in government, who knows maybe your budget will be cut back. The budget process drives a huge amount of government activity.

I actually ran out of pieces of government to talk about. It has been a long time since I looked at the S & L Crisis and who the players were. They used the RTC, Resolution Trust Corporation, to place bad bank assets under government management while they prosecuted the people that commited fraud 1988-1990... took they 10 years to get through the prosecutions. The Keating Five came out of that.

The SEC uses fines to avoid going to court or spend their entire budget on few court cases. The SEC probably knows how to go after the Fraud, but doesn't have the budget to do so.

Bank Examiners are failing. I think this is by intent and design.

[-] 1 points by NVPHIL (664) 7 years ago

Thanks for the link. After watching him talk I imagine a lot of money will go to making sure he doesn't head any agency.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Yeah, he is like a dog on a bone and knows what he is talking about. He has videos and articles all over the web.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 7 years ago

I'd be careful with that. It seems important to recognize a difference between those that are elected and those that actually do the work.


[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

do government business in public?

[-] 0 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

I think what you are suggesting is that government business be performed in public in front of everyone with total transparency.

I'm with you in spirit, but in practice it is not possible nor would many people be able to stand working in a place with by standers speaking out all day long trying to say, no do it this way... At the worker-bee level... at the level of supervisor and employee.

The is a law in Sweden that requires government to respond immedicately to citizen requests for information as long as the information is easily available for copying or printing with no restriction on the date of the government action. This is like our FOI Act in the USA. Accept in Sweden the law requires the government office provide an employee to help you and to get the information for you on the spot ... with some restrictions ... you would have to make the request in visiting hours/working hours ... you may have to wait a hour for the government office to get organized and assign an employee ... and you have to go to the proper government office ... you can't just get the info or assistance any place.

I'm not an expert on this Swedish law, but it will be harder in the USA for a few reasons .... there is a proliferation of government agencies, offices, and employees in the USA ... Many of our US Agencies are secret ... Federal Agencies that Contract for Supplies from corporations opporate under some secrecy as well to protect contract bid information.

The US Congress provides a Daily Congressional Record on line and you can see most of what they do when they see laws. Few people read it according to David Cay Johnston, Pulitzer Prize winner. We should read the congressional record when ever a bill is signed ... just as we should read the Executive Orders when they are signed.

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/Browse.php?&n=Issues (Congressional Record)

I don't see any new congressional bills that will help OWS.

By Mr. GOSAR or By Mr. ROYCE? :

H.R. 687.

Congress has the power to enact this legislation pursuant to the following:

Article IV of the Constitution provides the authority of Congress over federal property as a general matter. Article IV, §3 refers to the managerial authority over property owned by the Federal Government, and provides in relevant part:

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; .....

By virtue of this enumerated power, Congress has governing authority over the lands, territories, or other property of the United States--and with this authority Congress is vested with the power accredited to all owners in fee, the power to sell, lease, dispose,

[Page: H548] GPO's PDF exchange, transfer, trade, mine, or simply preserve land. The appropriate acreage to be held under Federal dominance is not the subject of this bill . Turning to the power of Article IV, §3, the Supreme Court has described this enumerated grant as one ``without limitation'' Kleppe v. New Mexico, 426 U.S. 529, 542-543 (1976)


Now what are they up to with this CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY STATEMENT -- (House of Representatives - February 14, 2013)

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-2013-02-14/pdf/CREC-2013-02-14-pt1-PgH547-7.pdf#page=1 (The PDF Version is easier to read)

H.R. 736. A bill to provide for the expansion of affordable refinancing of mortgages held by the Federal National Mortgage Association and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation; to the Committee on Financial Services.

By Ms. WILSON of Florida (for herself and Ms. BROWN of Florida):
H.R. 737. A bill to establish a national catastrophic risk consortium to ensure the availability and affordability of homeowners’ insurance coverage for catastrophic events; to the Committee on Financial Services.

By Mr. NOLAN (for himself and Mr. POCAN):
H.J. Res. 29. A joint resolution proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States providing that the rights extended by the Constitution are the rights of natural persons only; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

By Mr. PRICE of Georgia:
H.J. Res. 30. A joint resolution proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to limit the number of years Representatives and Senators may serve; to the Committee on the Judiciary.

H.J. Res. 31. A joint resolution proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States relating to the authority of Congress and the States to regulate contributions and expenditures in political campaigns and to enact public financing systems for such campaigns; to the Committee on the Judiciary. By Mr. PAYNE

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

FOI Act = Freedom of Information

Are they stilled fiddling with campaign finance reform and term limits ?

We are already ruled by money outside the government

[-] 0 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Looks like some congressmen want to work on those things.

But do you remember McCain Feingold Finance reform ...? It actually ended up Creating the Finance System we have today that no one likes ... including the PACs, and the 501(c) Soft Money Organizations.

So we may have wanted McCain Feingold, but what happed is more influence of money than ever before.

But maybe that was you point. That we can't stand any more finance reform like that last one.

[-] 0 points by alldone (32) 7 years ago

I would suggest that the solution lies higher up in the food chain at the level of the socialization process that establishes, promotes and protects positive behaviour.

This socialization process creates decent and honest individuals and this is the best protection against corruption.

If we are seeing corruption and social decay then the starting point should be to examine what has gone wrong with the socialization process.

[-] 0 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

Please describe what you mean by socialzation process within the context of government or a regulatory office.

Set aside the Union for a minute... I'm not sure how to deal with that kind of socialization or cutlure for the moment.

Seems to me that socialization comes from Supervisors and Higher Management primarily. Then you have training programs, Instructors, and Peers. Of course if a lot of employees are hired from outside then ... major industry ...or influential Firms/Corporations/Organizations ... they bring culture to the Organization.

Obviously, if we bring in managers & Executives from Goldman Sachs to Work in the US Treasury, Work in the White House, work in OMB, GAO, SEC, FDIC, OCC, NCUA, ... and the Financial Crimes Division of the FBI ... Well then bankers Rule

[-] 0 points by alldone (32) 7 years ago

I've been contributing to project to address this very issue. Will post details shortly.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

We have a Council which trains bank examiners, trains banks, and is responsible for vigous oversight of banks and responsible for making sure strong regulations are in place. The council is made up of directors from various federal agencies like Treasury, OCC, NCUA FDIC, Governor of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, and Chairman of the State Liaison Committee. http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/12/34/3303 (Financial Institutions Examination Council)

Okay thats for the reply. I just wanted to post the above piece in case you hadn't seen it.

[-] -1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 7 years ago

You dont. 30 years of power is about 27 too many.

3 year terms for all congress, and thats the term limit too. open primaries for all presidential races. No more of this career senate bullshit, or this incumbent auto reruns anymore.

Its not a cure all, but at least it helps. No more worrying about reelection. Let them focus on work.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 7 years ago

You right about Term Limits. I was also pushing around an idea for one term for President, but at 6 years. But I haven't throught it through. I guess I hate politics.

BTW ... the first 5 at the very top are actually supposed to be the current system. All federal employees should be taught those first 5. I can't say how it is working out, but sure looks like people are more concerned about their jobs & Careers & promotions than ethics.

So, you are right. My solutions don't go far enough.