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Forum Post: Why am I a Liberal?

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 22, 2011, 3:39 p.m. EST by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

How did it come to this?

As a young man in college I was not always the most diligent student. One weekend, near the end of term, was particularly eventful and I found myself on Monday morning sitting, looking at a Dynamics final and no memory of any of the fine formulas we had studied that semester. Then I remembered F=ma. From that kernel I was able to derive all of the formulas I needed and ended up doing pretty well. More importantly, I realized the importance of fundamental concepts; I found that if one has a good understanding of core principles the smaller details are easier to work out. This led me a few years ago to ask myself, aside from the individual policies which align my thinking with “liberals”; why am I a liberal?

After some consideration I arrived on four succinct statements, which I believe also gave me some insight to what motivates the “other” side.

I am a parent.

As a parent I will do anything within my power to advantage my child.

I am a citizen.

As a citizen I believe it is vitally important that we write rules that prevent that.

It is only natural that parents do all they can for their children, however as wealth accumulates this presents a threat to democracy. This is the threat that concerned Jefferson when he spoke of the need for inheritance taxes, not as a form of revenue but a means to protect the democracy from citizens that might become too powerful, and then threaten the will of the people. It is easy to see how this has become the case in America today.

The dangers of inherited wealth to our economy are not unlike monarchy to the health of any nation, when power is derived from birthright rather than one’s labor it is more often foolishly applied. As more and more of our economy becomes “inherited wealth” it becomes more of a target for con men and less a tool for innovators. The world’s financial power has been diverted from improving the human condition into money making schemes designed to enrich those who create them.

I do have some specific suggestions that I feel would be helpful long term:

Public financing for public elections

Flat rate Social Security Tax, first dollar to last all forms of income

Index minimum wage to the average increase in CEO pay for the S&P 500

That’s about it, that shouldn’t be too hard to do, right?

@factsrfun

119 Comments

119 Comments


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[-] 5 points by LSN45 (535) 2 years ago

I think you hit it on the head with the public financing of elections. If you get a chance, check out the book "Republic; Lost" by Lawrence Lessig. It spells out how the corporate money is skewing our political process. Here's my 2 cents:

There are a lot of improvements that need to be made. The list reforms Americans want to see is long and varied depending on who you talk to. That said, I believe there is one reform that would provide the American people the best chances of seeing other meaningful reforms actually happen - that is REAL, loop-hope free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM! I have seen others on this site calling this the "fulcrum" or pivotal issue. Right now the current legalized bribery, pay-to-play system of campaign donations and paid lobbyists has disenfranchised the American voter. Until this is fixed, any other reform the politicians may try to placate us with (be it a change to healthcare, clamping down predatory school loans, new financial regulations, etc.) will be about as effective as a farmer putting a new roof on his CHICKEN COOP, but still letting the FOX guard it.

We need to go back to the original political currency. Instead of the current system of who can collect the most money from corporations and special interests it should be who has the BEST IDEAS to EFFECTIVELY RUN THE COUNTRY (we don't need "Wealth Redistribution," what we need is "Political Influence Redistribution")!

For the sake of our children and future generations of Americans, we need to take back our democracy from the rich and powerful who are using their vast sums of money to "speak" as if they represent millions of Americans. This "Corporate Personhood" that has crept into our laws is allowing them to manipulating our policies in their favor at the expense of the average American (the recent "Citizens United" Supreme Court ruling is a miscarriage of justice and must be reversed. The $50 or $100 a normal American may give to a political campaign becomes meaningless when corporations or other special interests are handing our millions to buy political access to the decision making process.

For decades now the corporations and special interests have had our "representatives" bought and paid for (both on the right and the left). Concentrating our efforts on getting the money out of our politics is the best way we can create an environment in which further reforms can be realized. Until we end the current system of legalized bribery (campaign donations) and paid lobbying our politicians will continue to be the LAP DOGS of the corporations and special interests. What we need first and foremost is real, loop-hole free CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM!!!! If the corruption is not dealt with first, the chance of any other meaningful reforms becoming a reality is almost zero - the special interests will just use their money to buy votes and put forward bills that create loop-holes or otherwise twist the law in their favor. If we want our children to live in a country where there vote matters, we need to get the money out of our politics, otherwise they will increasingly become the 21st century version of the "landless peasant." Spread the word - End the LEGALIZED BRIBERY!!! CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM needs to be THE main goal of the protests!!!

[-] 1 points by FivePercentForNothing (190) 2 years ago

The hard thing about campaign finance reform is that you cannot prevent me from making and displaying a sign "vote for Obama" because that would violate freedom of speech. If I get 10,000 people togethere and put up billboards you cannot prevent me for the same reason. Since a TV commercial is a form of speech you cannot prevent me from making a commercial and showing it on TV.

So what the candidates do is instead of taking in money to their compaign they have disconnected groups that do this type of campaigning.

The most common is the Super PAC. The argument for these is that since no one person is contributing more than $500 it is OK that they spend millions on advertising for a candidate. The largest of these PACs is ActBlue which has spent over $57 million.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

BTW I used to have a handle "Zenisin" more to the point:

I think we have to consider what do we fundamentally believe, for instance do we, as a personal choice for each of us, feel that if you want to have your ideas considered, you need to chip in on the bills. When some say the 47 million Americans don’t pay any tax, then on another day say how they fight for taxpayers, I think it’s clear where they stand. Taking it further when some say that the top 2% pay 68% of the tax what their saying is that 68% of policy should favor 2% of the population. Before you think this is simple I offer that I have seen similar opinions in the Occupy movement, where “paying the bills” is camping out and if you haven’t maybe you shouldn’t be heard. I’m not saying the bills don’t have to be paid, as a matter of fact I don’t offer an answer just the question.

[-] 2 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

AMEN BUT or AND , I think all humans are hypocrites. The best ones are the ones that recognize their hypocrites and try to correct the situation to make it fair. The worst ones see the problem and use this human flaw to there advantage.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

This is the second comment I’ve read this morning that ventures into the spiritual, maybe that says something about the group. I agree with your statement I might add that I feel that recognizing ones own failings (in my case many) and trying still to be a positive influence on the world around you is about the best any of us can do, and sadly many of us do much worst.

[-] 1 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

Haha didn't mean for it be spiritual. I don't believe in deity. But, I do see how it kinda was.

[-] 4 points by ImaDreamer (82) 2 years ago

Discovering fundamental principles does indeed lead to answers to all related questions, which is why it is the goal of reason and science to discover such principles. In terms of liberal verses so-called "conservative," the basic question is fairness verses selfish greed. One leads to cooperation and justice, the other to dominance and injustice. Fairness is obviously a fundamental principle of a successful society. Three others are freedom, reason and opportunity. When anyone understands these four fundamental principles they naturally identify with being what is called liberal.

[-] 0 points by Jflynn64 (337) 2 years ago

When your goal is equality, then you will eliminate liberty but when you goal is liberty you have the best chance for equality.

You can't have A & B tell C to take money from D.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The goal of equal opportunity is often confused with the goal of equal results. I feel that all American citizens be afforded a minimum standard of living that we can all be proud to call An American Standard of living. I feel that America is made stronger when all it’s citizens are given a chance to succeed, and I think our economic system should reward those who work hard and do well.

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[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I know it often seems this simple but the point I make about childern is vaild, remember if you reduce your "emeny" to simple evil you disarm yourself.

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[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Your welcome.

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[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Good general tip don't reply if you don't like post.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Your post is reasonable and illustrates the contention we all feel. It is funny when I talk to middle class people, they are gun ho on doing away with the estate tax, not knowing that the tax never even applied to their chump change. If you get a candidate to run on your proposals, I'll support him/her. Peace and good cheers!

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Oh as far as a canidate goes, how about you?

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Wow thank you so much for your kind words, I live in Glendale, mind if I send you my contact info over this email system?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

You live right down the street. It is cool to know that I'm not the only one living in a red state that has Blue views. I am more purple than not though. Yes, I'd like to get to know your views more, you may.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

The most fundamental principle. You are a human being. Every label that you hold on to distorts your vision. Remove the labels and be a human being. Only then can you see clearly.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

To deign oneself is to deny reality, only through understanding can we see clearly, be not afraid of the tools we use they are only words.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

You can't understand unless you see the undistorted truth first.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Truth itself is an illusion become the observer release the judgment and all walls become windows.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Truth exists, but can only be seen in all of its dimensions from every angle and from every time.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

In time we see that even the tools we use become an enemy to understanding, as we restrict concepts that cannot be restricted, such as “truth” to the confines of a human made term. I think perhaps the work requires a certain period of individual efforts; it is because of our separation that we find the need to communicate. We therefore invent tools for this propose, and in time perhaps we find them to be inadequate and by this we learn humility. It is one theory anyway, not entirely my own.

[-] 2 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

None of these things -- none -- will occur unless people vote.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I couldn't agree more, please everyone look into your own heart, if we all vote how it tells us we will be OK.

[-] 2 points by zymergy (236) 2 years ago

Indeed! Individually we have the powers of our vote and of our purse. All we have to do is use these powers. Vote against any representative whose actions oppose our Bill of Rights, and boycott the products and services of any corporation that attempts to corrupt our government.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Though as far as "the purse" goes I understand times are tough no one should feel bad for doing what you need to, but if you can, check the vintage store for that bedroom set and framer's maket, I've been using cfl's since before they were cool, and saving for solar panel.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I dunno. Why am I a radical? As Bruce Springsteen said, "Mama told me not to stare into the sights of the sun, but mama, that's where all the fun is."

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Ahhh the folly of youth, I too once lived my life with abandon, but I think we have to dig down a bit so that when challged we don't run out of answers they do. The beifit of this is people cann't hide from core beliefs but if you hit them with details they fall asleep and are sure your lying anyway.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I'm 68 years old. I've been active in social movements for nearly 50 years. I'm happy to be confused with someone much younger, but I'm as red as any kid I've ever met, even at OWS. I frankly think that what has gotten OWS as far as it has is its very radicalism and its refusal to capitulate to liberalism. The spectrum of politics that even pundits recognize in America is extremely narrow. I will acknowledge that there are very few radicals in America, but still we deserve to be recognized. I often take political polls and I resent it deeply when I have to make a forced choice between liberal and converservative. When then asked which I feel closer to my answer is still, neither.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

now how cool is that?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Cool that your first, or do you think the idea is cool?

[-] 2 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Good ideas.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I don't usually get too caught up in the fascination some experience on being first to a thread.

Therefore I must have been commenting on the content of the forum post - what specifically escapes me at the moment. I note there have been some minor emendations to the post since I replied?

I think it was my initial reaction to this:

From that kernel I was able to derive all of the formulas I needed and ended up doing pretty well

[-] 0 points by socal63 (124) 2 years ago

Let's eat Zendog!


Let's eat, Zendog!


Commas save lives.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

o . . kay

um -

I don't get it - but there was another comment, fish somewhere else just a minute ago - attempting to capitalize on some previously scripted behavior?

is that it?

What?

[-] 1 points by socal63 (124) 2 years ago

I had to read your post twice in order to understand it. I'm just trying to help you improve your writing skills. I'm not a poet, but I'm sure that, even in poetry, punctuation is important.


Therefore (comma) I must have been commenting on the content of the forum post - what (comma) specifically (comma) escapes me at the moment. I note there have been some minor emendations to the post since I replied?


Now, I'm at a loss. I don't understand your reference to "previously scripted behavior".

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

yeah-ya

I get lazy when typing in comment boxes.

as far as previously scripted behavior goes . . .

  • nevermind
[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I like math it makes sense and there is a right answer, life is more muddy. Are you a reader of the Dalai Kama?

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I've never heard of it - Sun and Lao Tzu are my principle avenues of enlightenment through Zen

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Dalai Lama opps sorry about that, I've been reading Eckhart Tolle and the Dalai Lama mostly haven't ventured into the older texts much yet, unless you count Pirsig

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

The Art of War is a fascinating book.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I have it and have got pick it up, you know life and all it is my next read, or Deepak's "Budda"

[-] 1 points by nighttalker (57) from New York, NY 2 years ago

How dit it come to this? Drain the welt on the soul of America of the human formed PUSS, and we will slowly recoup our balance. Demand the prosecution of the Atlanta VA loan guarantee officer! Who is his 'lawyer'? That answer may be the key to the box from hell! Demand prosecution. Redeem America. There is far more to this case then meets the eye. It is like NO other. IMHO. http://4closurefraud.org/2011/10/05/unsealed-complaint-wells-fargo-bank-of-america-j-p-morgan-chase-and-gmac-mortgage-engaged-in-a-brazen-scheme-to-defraud-our-nations-veterans/

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thank you for the comment but I am not sure that it is on point.

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[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thank you these look good I will have to take the time to watch them both.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 3 months ago

I thought I would reboot this. it's just my profile but it's been awhile since put it up.

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[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 2 years ago

Conservatives believe the system was ever good at some point, liberals believe the system can somehow be made better in a durable way.

I believe neither.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Thank you for your comment, and I do understand, but here’s the problem with statements of this sort: “the system” is in effect the American government, and the government is an expression the people’s will, (I know many would disagree but in the end we get the government we deserve, we just need to work harder to deserve better) if we don’t mind the business of government, first off someone will, and second it won’t stop large powerful forces from raising up over which the people have no control. I have met people who live “off the grid” and I admire that it takes a certain kind of person. In the late 1770’s the nation had those who looked west to be left alone and those who looked east at the political ties and wanted to “be left alone” so we could make our own country, and I think we still are.

[-] 0 points by agnosticnixie (17) from Laval, QC 2 years ago

I'm also not a nationalist.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I understand that temptation, still our fate depends on our actions since we are alive, inaction becomes action so it is always a choice of what effect, not whether to affect.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

"As a parent I will do anything within my power to advantage my child."

So, you would kill to advantage your child?

[-] 1 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

It depends on the circumstance. If the advantage was preventing my child from death then yes. I am a life long progressive , but I also have plenty of guns and know how to use them. If there was a person raping or trying to hurt my children or wife I would have no problem providing the "advantage".

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

That is a little more than just providing an advantage.

[-] 1 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

depends how you look at it I guess.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I would kill to protect my child directly.

We all "kill" to advantage our children every time we buy a video game instead of sending the money where it would do more good.

My point was more along the line that if given the opportunity I might very well leave more money to my child than I honestly thought they could put to best use just because they were my child. Warren Buffett has made a different choice but he is the exception, so as a parent I would support someone who would cut my taxes (leaving me with more money) then borrow that extra money from me and pay me interest forever and my children, (even though this is bad for the country) but as a citizen I would support someone who would levy the tax instead of borrowing the money this is not so good for my children but better for the country so this was my general point, we need more citizens thinking about the country not just about themselves and their trust funds.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

I think you will do more good for your children and your country if you are allowed to keep more of the money you earn. I believe that the government can do more damage to our country by depriving you and your children of the money you earn.

I think government is an alligator and we are stuck in a tank with the alligator. I think those who push for more taxation of "the rich" are suggesting that the fat people in the tank can afford to let the alligator eat some of them to protect themselves from being eaten by the gator. Sooner or later, the alligator will have exhausted the fat people and will eventually go after you.

[-] 1 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

Yes, that is the hope that in the long run we will ALL pay our fair share. Obesity is bad for your health! I am more then willing to chip in to make sure that the commons are fully funded. Education is good, passable roads are good, the fire department having the funding to put a fire out is good, clean air and water are good......

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Your problem is you don't see the "alligator" is the Walmart family, and how is the government letting you "keep what you earn" (BTW I wish my bank would) if they just borrow it back as soon as they "let you keep it".

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 2 years ago

The problem is that you don't understand that "the Walmart family" is in the tank with us and they are the fat people who you think we can use to feed the alligator.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

OK I can see your getting lost here, let’s try this do you really believe that monarchs once ruled all people, and still rule many because people believe some guy in the sky will punish them if they oppose the King?

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[-] 0 points by mikePac (52) 2 years ago

Why am I a Liberal? is the same as "Why am I retarded"?

[-] 1 points by maplehead74 (60) from Brooksville, FL 2 years ago

Uncalled for and shameful

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I don't know; why are you retarded?

[-] 0 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I find it appalling that even alleged liberals would suggest that any person living at or under the poverty line, should be taxed at all. Not even sales or property tax. And fwiw, the first bracket starting at 8000 bucks/year is hardly in line with not taxing impoverished persons.

On the other hand, I don't think impoverished persons should procreate either.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Did you know that all taxes are passed down to the end user, the consumer? Even that loaf of bread that is supposedly tax free, has hidden in it's price every tax paid by the companies involved in it's manufacture, distribution, and sales. In addition to the flour and other ingredients, when that poor person buys a loaf of bread, he also partially pays the CEO's salary, his company car, his pension, his bonus, his health insurance, his vacation, and his retirement. Even the property tax his landlord pays is passed down to poor person in the form of higher rent. To think the poor don't pay taxes really shows a complete lack of understanding. Both economically and on a human level as well.

[-] 0 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

"I find it appalling that even alleged liberals would suggest that any person living at or under the poverty line, should be taxed at all."

Now reread what I actually typed and understand I've only been accused of being "liberal" one time in my life, however, I'm reasonable and fair. I also know how taxes work so I'll pass on the patronizing lecture about how stupid I am as well.

Thanks anyhow.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

It looks like I misread your post about your view on taxing the poor, as well as the part about the impoverished procreating was in jest. Please forgive my error. I would never call anyone that thought the poor should be taxed fairly, liberal. I would call them just. Tell me honestly, did you already understand how taxes are passed down? Few people do. Even the most intelligent.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

And also, I still find it appalling that the first bracket starts at a wage far beneath that of which it takes to even think about having a chance of providing oneself with the necessities of life, and those persons should not be taxed at all, even if it means having a discount/exempt type card.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Having passed along the cost to clients for as long as I've owned businesses, of course I understand. I also understand that all are taxed with our manipulated dollar values which seems to be tied to an agenda of those who care not making our laws, extracting the wealth of all the 401k's etc, of which they haven't cleaned out, yet.

I wasn't jesting about impoverished people not procreating. It' a poor and controllable choice. Just as I am certain about this, I am equally certain that many impoverished in other ways, other than financially, should also not procreate.

It isn't "master race" crap, it's more along the lines of we do have a population bubble certain to pop and reasonable thinking should prevail.

I also am certain that persons who are not "reasonable" to a certain standard truly shouldn't have a say/vote in a government by and for the people. Some may deem these views as a means for a whole nation not to be boot strapped down and hindered by the less adroit majority.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

So who decides which people are not "reasonable" to vote?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Do you know our nation's history and how a person proved "reasonable", as mentioned many times in our Constitution? Who isn't the the root question. The real question is why was it discontinued and you may be interested in knowing how a person originally proved reasonable.

the concept is a thing of beauty, government for the people and by the people with a bar set to limit the bounds of the union, originally anyhow, set to not exceed the comprehension of a reasonable person, and therefore, reasonable persons should be rightfully subject to any agreements between the states.

It's far removed from this concept now.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

How did a person originally prove reasonable. Where in the constitution is that stated?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

The term "reasonable man" (which I have no objection to being changed to "reasonable man or woman regardless of skin color) is mentioned many times throughout the Constitution. The ability to read, write, and prove able comprehend the Constitution sound plausible?

http://www.barefootsworld.net/consti16.html

Try this test.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

"reasonable man" is not mentioned in the constitution that I can find. What article, section, or amendment are you referring to?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

must be the chinese version

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

A reasonable man would admit his mistake and move forward. It's better to lose an argument and learn the truth than to win an argument and believe a lie.

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

Well it's about time somebody on this forum actually read it. Don't you think it's reasonable that there should be a bar in order to vote as well as the restoration of the deceptively omitted original 13th with a bit more specific language?

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

That constitution site sure has a lot of interesting info. Thanks for the link. Just curious, what would your 28th amendment be?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

The original 13th amendment but with a bit more specific language preventing any non-regular people from holding public office. Notice Lincoln was a lawyer and that very amendment would have prevented him from being president, or even holding his congressional seat. Get the experts and play for pay whores out of DC. Establish reasonable bars, make representatives directly accountable for every vote on every piece of legislation passed. No more, 'my constituents want this but I know better" garbage.

I dunno, I'll have some coffee and think about it some more.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

No bar. What is the deceptively omitted original 13th?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

So you think that a certified crazy person or mental retard should have the right to vote? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of government by the people being effective or reasonable, or should inepts merely sell their votes?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Would you tie there tubes at a certain level of poverty?

Feed them impotence drugs?

Who would pay for this in your world?

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

*yawn zzzzzzz

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'd even go for a flat tax if they would just let you have the first $50,000 to live on,

[-] 1 points by FrogWithWings (1367) 2 years ago

I bet.

[-] 0 points by mikePac (52) 2 years ago

Liberals are the disease of America. People forgot how terrible Carter was then they voted in Commando Odumbo, in which is 100 times worse than Carter. This assClown needs to go in 2012

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

And who was the last American President who did not start a war?

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I noticed you skiped Clinton, yeah best you forget about him. Oh did you know that in 2001 we were 10 years away from paying off the debt entirly, then there was Bush.

[-] 0 points by mikePac (52) 2 years ago

Now thanks to Obummer we will never pay it off. This dirt bag has spent more than any other Pres and is still doing it

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

What????

No glowing praise of the republicans?

You have a very large memory hole.

At least 20 years just fell in it.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So you blame the doctor when you get sick?

[-] 0 points by mikePac (52) 2 years ago

not quite sure what you are trying to say??

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'm not surprised.

[-] 0 points by socal63 (124) 2 years ago

You seem intelligent, and you write well. However, your decision to choose the Democratic Party seems based on pretty flimsy criteria. Your only argument appears to be the need to restrict inheritance. Certainly, there are other pressing issues that have a dramatic effect on society.


I am a Republican largely because I believe in smaller government and personal responsibility. However, I must admit, I have lost most of my trust in ALL of our elected officials.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I don't mean to pick on you, but another question is this. If the Republicans want smaller government, why do they not complain about the 2 million people we have in prison? I believe it’s because people are mostly in prison for interference with other people’s property rights and Republicans are fine with big government that is in place to protect large property holdings. This is in keeping with their main propose of protecting the fortunes of the wealthy and this is why the “small government “ people don’t complain about lots of people in prison, but I’m open to other ideas on why this is.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The desire of parents to secure their children’s future is not at all flimsy and it is that desire that destroys nations historically (regardless of their form of government) it is upon the raising and falling fortunes of Great Families that determine the Nation’s well being sometimes they are the King sometimes the Merchants. If America is to be an ongoing concern we must strike a balance between opportunity and birthright, If we continue to focus our public policy mostly on securing the fortunes of the fortunate, we will fall victim to the weakness of inherited power.

As far as how I came to be a liberal, I watched a lot of CSPAN in the early 80’s when it first started, loved to watch the sausage being made. What I would do is I would read each proposed amendment and decide for myself if I thought it was a good idea. Then I watched how the votes went, and what I found was that over and over I agreed with the majority of the Dems. It took some time but it really showed me how consistently the GOP just supported whatever was in the interest of the wealthy, that has never changed.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 2 years ago

Too hard to do? Not sure.
But WE can do what 83% of Americans have already "voted" for

Are you ready
.....................FOR ACTION
Are you ready to
.....................DO SOMETHING REAL ?
Are you ready to
......................join 83% ........ of Americans ?

We must not
DEMAND that we WANT THEM.to give to US
We must
DEMAND GOALS THAT WE WILL ACHIEVE FOR OURSELVES


Because of the Supreme Court's decision,
we cannot accomplish anything significant, without FIRST -
Overturning Citizens United !!!
Ending Corporate Personhood !!!


83% of Americans already agree on it
as stated in the ABC/Washington Post poll

.........................................

In the the PFAW Poll -

85% of voters say that corporations have too much influence over the political system today.
77% think Congress should support an amendment to limit the amount corporations can spend on elections.
74% say that they would be more likely to vote for a candidate for Congress who pledged to support a Constitutional Amendment limiting corporate spending in elections.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


Our only immediate goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decision Citizens United (2010) , that enables unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons &
have no personhood rights”

We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we only have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just three months and eight days.)


If they could tie the left and right into a success - WHY CAN'T WE ??????????


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process. 5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.

Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE


I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one task the MAJORITY.


Join the OWS Restore Democracy Working Group at
..............http://www.nycga.net/groups/restore-democracy
regular meetings 6-8PM @ 60 Wall St – The Attrium @ Wednesdays
Plan details with supporting documentation at:.... http://bit.ly/vK2pGI


IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO ACT ----> JOIN US TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE

TO END CORPORATE PERSONHOOD


Whereas --

The OWS Declaration of the Occupation of New York City states that
"a democratic government derives its just power from the people,
not from corporations."

and --

the ABC News/Washington Post poll found that 83% of the entire US population
opposes the Supreme Court Citizens United decision,
which affirmed that corporations are people.

and --

by supporting the overturning of corporate personhood,
OWS clearly aligns itself with the vast majority of the American people
who support ending the fundamentally flawed and anti-democratic concept
that corporations are people.

therefore --

We support a constitutional amendment to end corporate personhood.


[-] 1 points by Toynbee (656) from Savannah, GA 2 years ago

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/opinion/keeping-college-students-from-the-polls.html?ref=opinion

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

A rather long post with it's own agnda, but on point and I agree with the cause, I hope we can get this done.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 3 months ago

Ben's dad are you still with us?

[-] -1 points by Zealwriter (5) 2 years ago

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Simply complain on blogs like this one and be accused of loitering rather than occupying or Join a growing movement and return here to lead others to water!

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[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

This really looks like spam

[-] 0 points by Zealwriter (5) 2 years ago

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[-] -2 points by capella (199) 2 years ago

Liberalism = mental disorder.

[-] -2 points by earnyours (124) 2 years ago

See, and I was thinking it was simply a head injury. LOL.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6461) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Help me out here, what exactly were you thinking?