Forum Post: How Can/Should #Occupy Make Effective Changes NOW?
Posted 13 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 6:53 a.m. EST by aquabuddah
(30)
from Holland, MI
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This isn't #America's first time at the protest "dance". Past protests that produced meaningful results included Civil Rights Movement, which resulted in dramatic changes WITHIN the contemporary political system. What serious, SPECIFIC flaws in politics can/should be fixed NOW, given what we've learned from protests-past? || Added: (Without changing a flawed system, we will continue to get flawed results. I know #ows is having a significant effect on the CURRENT system.) NOTE: Lots of input, mostly off-topic. Examples of possible specific changes to political systems: Term Limits, statutes requiring open-meetings in ALL caucuses, banning anonymous/veiled campaign contributions, elimination of Electoral College, Parliamentary system of govt, etc, etc. I'm not saying I support any of these, they are just examples.
Dear Government,
We don't want your insufficient government programs, handouts or so-called solutions to the masses that YOU "say" is going to help us.
Like meager portion-controlled feedings to animals, for the consumption by the 99%. The 99% want to decide what is best for us, by having fair and equal representation in our government. Not a government that is bought and paid for by the 1%. A government that decides when and how much to feed us our meager portion-controlled programs.
You miscalculated the portion-controlled feedings.
The 99% are now starving. Starving for our fair and equal representation in government.
Repectfully, 99% of the People.
aquabuddah:
The existence of OWS has produced real change in that the nation, for awhile, shifted the national debate from debt and taxes to employment and economic equity. That lexicon shift was powerful but short lived since there was no real focus within the OWS to capitalize on the momentum they had created.
The OWS in Ohio took on a purpose and changed a law. Very quickly. Very effectively. In coalition with others of like mind for the specific purpose. Real change. Real success. And in no time at all. Bank transfer day was another success. But it will take time to see the real effects manifest themselves in change within the banks. But the action gave the banks something of substance to think about.
The OWS in America has real potential to incite real change in America. The politicians are paying attention. Wall Street bankers are frozen in the headlights. All that it requires is well articulated specific focus and purpose. This is all that is missing from OWS.
You may be right, but the public backlash to the anti-Union law in Ohio (and "Personhood" in MS) predate #ows. I do believe those efforts were helped by the advent of #ows, but I haven't seen reports that confirm a direct effect. I hope that was the case, and defeating those laws/proposals are great examples of the kind of effect #ows can have immediately.
Doing more such targeted political actions is the only way to tell how effective the Ohio effort was.
The shift in the national lexicon from debt to jobs though is very real. I wish it ware more sustained than it seems to be.
Yes, I think #ows is waking people to the outrageous attacks on our rights. My hope is #ows will continue to shake things up, like when protesters did an #Occupy #Bachmann event. The anti- #99Percent-tone that so many politicians strike, either directly or indirectly, deserves such pointed responses. Some may think disrupting political events will sour public perception of #ows, but I disagree. The rabid #ClassWarfare being waged against the #99Percent, at the very least, demands a boisterous response.
I'm of two minds about "disrupting" public events. turn about being fair play.
If an angry crowd of Tea Partyers came into an encampment and tried to disrupt the place it would quickly turn into a riot.
It was ugly when TP's disrupted political events and town hall meetings in the 2010 election cycle. I am not very big on things that can quickly devolve into chaos America's already fragile democracy.
A very good point. Care should definitely be taken, as these things can devolve into an ugly tit-for-tat. But, I think there is an objective truth to #ows, one that the #TeaParty doesn't have. The TP point-of-view is dark, harsh. Less rights, less care for the unfortunate, a general selfishness to it all. It is politicians that have pandered to these base, even anti-social TP beliefs, that have had the disruptions thus far. They have stubbornly ignored the majority of us, let alone their ignorance of the plight of their fellow citizens. Due to this, raising our voices in order to raise awareness may be our best recourse.
We see eye to eye on the underpinnings of the Tea party attitude. Their people nearly shut down many a public meeting of progressive candidates and politicians in the 2010 mid terms. Their tactics looked a lot like the brown shirt bully tactics that brought Hitler to the chancellorship. I don't think there is a place in a democracy for bullies. Either they or the democracy have to fail. Experience is that democracy fails in the face of bullies before the bullies ever retreat from bullying those who's reason they are stifling.
It can definitely get out-of-hand. Thus far, the protesters have made their statements, then left. And, since ows doesn't attach itself to a political party, that should help prevent abuse of the disruption tactic. At this point, I think it's more fighting-back AGAINST bullies. There are events where the 1% gather, comfortable in their apparent sense of ideological superiority, often sneering at the 99% & ows. Some disruption of those events is a good thing. The 1% are in their metaphorical Ivory Towers, removed from having to deal with the anguish of the 99%. Judiciously shaking them up once in a while may be necessary, but we should be prepared to call for a halt to these, if they go too far. PS: I also think that the disruptions are pushing the people at these events to START using reason, not actually stifling reason. If we could have an honest dialogue, we wouldn't need to, well, have ANY of the protests.
The unions won but they really lost. There is no money in Ohio so thousands of State workers will be laid off. Just like the Post Office. They won but they will lose when 120,000 postal workers get laid off.
If the unions may lose jobs either way, it's better that their collective bargaining rights are preserved...
My point is that there is nothing to bargan over. States have no money! Cannot print like the Fed does. It is over for collective barganing I'm afraid. At least the public sector ones
So taking away collective bargaining rights won't solve anything. Layoffs either way. Even though it's rare now for there to be the kinds of abuses and inequities that gave rise to the Labor Movement, once you take away the legal right to organize, then the abuses will come back. Other solutions need to be found. Unions have been far too greedy over the years, but they have secured rights that are important to ALL workers.
Well, really just to a few workers.Very few Americans are in a union anymore. Part of the reason is that the old pension system is going away. Not a lot to bargin for after that. The Federal unions for example have very little power because going on strike is not allowed.
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Check out financialfairness.org and their Peoples Financial Bill of Rights,
Civil Rights movement really did not do that much. Check out the inner cities like LA and detroit. After 50 years things are really about the same.
Having those rights is important. It still comes down to local officials, and whether they allow the full intent of the law to be fulfilled. Just as the period immediately after the Civil War, municipalities can and will find ways to continue to subvert people's rights. In many ways, we are realizing MLK's Dream. Work must continue, however.
Yup, there are lots of laws and protections for prople but my point is that over all the folks in the inner cities are living just about the same. Check out Detroit and LA or South Central San Diego.
Most of the posts under this thread show a profound lack of ability or desire to answer the topic question: Changing the SYSTEM. No politician, political party, healthy snack food, or national culture has anything to do with that. Under the current SYSTEM, the same flawed, corrupt, ignorant pols can be elected, re-elected, bought-sold, waste-space, screw-up hard-won PROGRESS. HOW do we CHANGE the SYSTEM? Study, learn, then answer.
CHANGE SYSTEM NOW via White House website sponsored petition: PUBLIC VOTE on the COMPETING FINAL DEMOCRATIC vs FINAL REPUBLICAN vs INDEPENDENT VERSIONS of a CONGRESSIONAL BILL. http://wh.gov/bhC For example, both the Republican and Democratic parties claim to have tax code and healthcare reform plans, etc. Fine, put them in writing. Here the media polls and media talk shows would have something real to talk about before submitting the competing versions to the final decision-making responsibility of We the People.
OWS protesters could act on this SIGNING STATEMENT demanding a PUBLIC VOTE OPTION be incorporated as a new legislative continuing JOINT RESOLUTION. Binding on Congress itself to pass along the public majority winning version of a bill to the President. The legislative precedent being no legal difference between a joint resolution and a bill.
White House rules are Petitions receiving 25,000 votes in 30 days, are referred to evaluation followed by official White House statement. PETITIONS CANNOT BE SEARCHED ON WHITE HOUSE WEBSITE UNTIL IT GETS 150 VOTES. This link, same as above, is only way to initiate petition: http://wh.gov/bhC
Legislative PUBLIC VOTE OPTION re-strikes the BALANCE OF POWER between representation and democracy, effecting CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM via re-directing the CASH FLOW. Not sure how? Sign the petition and find out.
Thanks for the reply. Petitions MAY pressure politicians to change today; Protests MAY affect legislation NOW; But when the heat is off, greed, corruption, incompetence takes back over. Yes, let's petition the WH, pressure all politicians to get any legislative/electoral victories we can, but for lasting change, I believe we must have a number of structural changes to our political system; Such as: More aggressive recall laws, Constitutionally-mandated voter protections, better (or ANY) strong ethics rules for SCOTUS (and ALL courts), transparency of the deepest levels of the legislative process, Constitutional provisions for national referendums, REAL campaign finance reform, etc. If we fight HARD to put REAL power in the hands of the #99Percent, we can find consensus on what ultimately needs to be done, and when.
OK great, I of course support your call for "a number of structural changes to our political system; Such as: More aggressive recall laws, Constitutionally-mandated voter protections". Now say you get an elected rep to actually draft a bill you like...this would cause another rep to draft a COMPETING VERSION of your bill. Then y'all know how it goes...both versions get watered down to a do-nothin useless exercise in futility.
The PUBLIC VOTE OPTION of course subjects YOUR VERSION vs the OPPOSITION's VERSION to a public vote, wherein your version will of course win because it has been written to be the MODERATE SOLUTION to the problem (in order to win the public vote) vs the opposition's extremist (psychotic) appeal to its base.
Hence, this the MEANS to achieve exactly the goal you state: "If we fight HARD to put REAL power in the hands of the #99Percent, we can find consensus on what ultimately needs to be done, and when." If you disagree, please explain exactly to the forum your alternative means:
My question is and was: "How Can/Should #Occupy Make Effective Changes NOW?" Short of revolution, change has to come through the existing system, right? You lay out a sure formula for failure. Well, Women fought and won the right to vote, when they themselves had absolutely NO DIRECT CONTROL over the system. The premise that ANYTHING #ows may ultimately want in the way of change CANNOT happen through the existing system is therefore provably false. The question then remains: What change do we NEED? Not necessarily a question that HAS to be answered now, but it doesn't hurt to start floating ideas. Consensus takes time to build.
Now we're getting closer, here you ask: how to make effective changes now, pointing out women gaining voting rights, through the existing system? Well, I would point out more Constitutional amendments have dealt with the extension of voting rights than any other matter. The PUBLIC VOTE OPTION is a focused extension of voting rights, whereby #Occupy Could Make an Effective Change NOW.
Yes consensus takes time to build...the coming together of OWS is a consensus which has taken decades to build.
Now say OWS was instrumental in the PUBLIC VOTE OPTION petition http://wh.gov/bhC gaining the required 25,000 votes in 30 days, so that the White House had to make an official statement to the world. Would that, in your opinion constitute an effective change thru the existing system?
It would be great if ows fired through petitions like that. I think it would push politicians to effect the change demanded, absolutely.
They are making significant change now. Don't you realize the movement has spread to many cities around the world? It's the biggest protest in my lifetime.
I don't think that aquabuddah is talking simply about existence of crowds in the streets. But rather purpose, focus and meaning.
Yes. And more specifically, WHAT (out of myriad flaws) can/should be changed in CURRENT system. I'm seeing sniping/posturing, not meaningful input, thus far.
I just happen to have something to fill that void.
H.R.2451: Glass-Steagall Restoration Act of 2011 Find it here: http://thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php
Write to your members in Congress and demand that they co-sponsor this bill. NOW!
Senate: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
House: http://www.house.gov/representatives/
The Congress that Crashed America http://home.ptd.net/~aahpat/aandc/congcrash.html A directory of 64 current U.S. Senators & 171 sitting Representatives who repealed Glass-Steagall in 1999.
Very good. I hope it's not too specific (or pointedly political) for #ows posting guidelines. I'm actually looking for systemic changes (such as Term Limits, national referendums, etc) that will properly bend to the will of The People, but I do agree with the remedies/issues you present.
We have term limits. Good organization and dedication will overcome even the most corrupt ballot access laws and two party subversion of our state voting laws.
The best term limits are Americans voting out the corrupt creeps.
I am against material term limits because they limit democratic choice. If people want the same person in office for five centuries that is their right. Term limits don't bend to the will of the people they deny the will of the people.
National referendums can be problematic. In California they can put just about anything on a ballot with enough signatures on a petition. As a result the government cannot raise the taxes they need to make the state work. There are dozens of special interest laws passed in low turnout off year elections that make a real mess out of governing that state. The absolute three strikes law in California has people doing life terms for shoplifting a bag of potato chips. Or for failing a piss test because they live in a building where others smoke pot and so they inhale second hand smoke.
Ballot referendums can be a real problem. Especially if they are written for public support rather than for legal sense. Unintended legal and social consequences can be devastating. And hard to remedy.
I put those ideas out to get the discussion going. I am also averse to term limits. If other corrupting influence are controlled, we don't need term limits. I also agree that national referendums are problematic, but as a last-ditch way to get government to behave, having them as an option is not a bad idea. The current electoral system would be adequate, if the right to vote is protected from state laws that subvert access through improper ID requirements. The best defense against corrupt power is always a strong, engaged electorate, but if there is not transparency in the legislative process, we cannot always make the best voting decisions. Another major problem is the SCOTUS, and stacked federal courts. Citizens United overturned congressional law designed to curb undue campaign influence by corporations. Campaign donors formerly had to be disclosed, now, if the contributions are filter through these entities, we don't know who may be influencing our elections. Savvy politicians are also using "friendly" federal circuit courts to get favorable decisions that will serve as Stare Decisis in other circuit courts, and potentially, the SCOTUS. My bottom-line is, it's not simple. That's why I think it's better to work through these issues and ideas sooner, rather than later...
Two things would fix our democracy more than anything:
Universal suffrage. 100% with the only exceptions being for people convicted of treason or voter fraud.
Ballot access equality. Holding the two dominance parties to the same ballot access rules that they impose on third parties and Independents.
This from the Pennsylvania Ballot Access Coalition:
"In 2006, independent and minor party candidates were required to collect over 67,000 valid signatures simply to get on the state-wide ballot in Pennsylvania on Election Day. Legally, Democratic and Republican candidates require no signatures to get on the state-wide ballot, and even the 2,000 signatures required for the Primary Day ballot are ridiculously smaller than the virtually impossible hurdle of 67,000."
Most states are just as bad.
OWS is growing, and finally making the current batch of politicians pay attention. IF these pols responds by effecting practical changes the people want, that's fine, but an unchanged system remains susceptible to rampant corruption. We shouldn't have to have global protests to stop political practices that, time and again, history shows destroy societies. So the ultimate "victory" would be to be left with a better system, one that ferrets-out corruption, greed, and incompetence BEFORE people have to take to the streets.
Corruption is natural and unavoidable in any system. that is why change must always be embraced as a natural part of any dynamic system.
An example. The Civil Rights movement had great successes at ending some aspects of Jim Crow. It incited the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. But those laws only cut one leg out from under Jim Crow. The direct denial of access to polling and ballot access. The other leg of Jim Crow was more insidious, mass electoral disenfranchisement using trumped up criminal laws. Richard Nixon realized this and in 1971 created, in collusion with the Dixie-crats in Congress, the War on Drugs that established a national police force to ostensibly fight drug abuse but in reality was a means to fill prisons and cut tens of thousands of Americans from the voting rolls each year using the Jim Crow exception in the 14th Amendment. Cumulatively, in the past 40 years, millions of poverty oppressed and mostly minority urban Americans have been cut from the voting roll. And few Americans are willing to speak out about this injustice because they will be branded nonsensically as pro drug abuse.
A corruption that has neutralized much of the intent and purpose of the Civil Rights movement, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.
Nobody is really paying attention to the OWS. It is falling apart with disease, violence, and drug abuse. It won't last the winter.
Why are Canadians protesting? Canada has almost no population and is very resource rich and they have everything they need? Canada is truly the best country in the world, and richest per capita, except its bloody cold, and there are all those french people up there. But apart from that Canadians should be happy.
Francophones are great, they think more than anglophones. The real problem in North-America is fat hamburger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer rerun watching Americans. As you can see from these boards, most Americans are nitwits. They can barely write in their own language. I make fewer mistakes than them, and English is my second language. Hilarious!
As far as Canada is concerned, I agree with you. I love my country.
Ideas? Shall we move to Canada? I don't see your point.
My point is francophones are not the scum of North-America like Jimboiam claims. The real scum are fat hamburger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer rerun watching Americans.
French people are great to other french people, but from being in canada and france they are extremely rude, and smug people with no reason to be so.
It depends which francophones you are talking about. I'm Acadian, we are known to be quite friendly. In any case, the real problem in America remains fat hamburger eating Coca-Cola bucket drinking Jerry Springer rerun watching Americans.
Ive been all over the world, and the only place i can't stand going to is France. The people are not nice at all. great culture if they were all mutes. The nicest people i have ever met were in India followed by China (although they have to be). France is at the bottom of the list of places i ever want to go again.
Your point? Off-topic, start another thread if you simply want to post judgmental opines.
We are not talking about France. We are talking about francophones in Canada. It's entirely different. Do you compare American culture to the culture of anglophones in England?
I am talking about the nature of French and French Canadians to be very rude people. Ive been around enough to witness it first hand, and i am a person who loves other cultures and fully embrace them wherever i go. Ive been to europe Asia south america the middle east, eastern europe, and mexico and canada a alot. The countries dominated by French, or French speakers i have learned to stay away from. I won't even go to Quebec anymore. Ill go to the other provinces all day long.
you will find that those who are able to self actualize come across as rude. when you know your own limitations and your own strengths, anyone who questions you will be dealt with rudely and efficiently. those with out an argument and self respect, find "keeping it real" to be distasteful. that is just my two cents. whether or not the French are rude or not, I don't know; never met enough to come to that conclusion.
You think rudeness is an example of self actualization? On the contrary, anyone who is capable of doing so, would be the antithesis of being rude, because they realize that they are no different from anyone else. By your account racists would be self actualized and that is no where near true.
Then you'll come to New-Brunswick where I'm from. I'm Acadian. I'll be glad to prepare some hamburgers and a bucket of Coca-Cola for you. We can have a nice barbecue and talk politics.
Don't need hamburgers and coke, i like ethnic food wherever i go. thats the whole point of traveling. Im so spoiled on real asian food, i can't even eat what they call asian food here in America.
rudeness is a perception made by others as to the qualities of those they judge. keeping it real is what I call rude people, you call them rude
You need to travel around more. I'm a very down to earth person and really enjoy other cultures. French people are rude without any coaxing. Typically a racist disdain is what they exhibit.
I guess I'm only speaking from experience about those i used to think as rude but after contemplation and growing up, I now think they were self-confident. I wish I could travel more. Maybe if I did not come from a broken culture, I'd work harder for that culture.
Typically self confident people are not rude. Rude people tend to have inferiority feelings. Im from a broken culture, but we don't have culture in America, which is why i love to travel away from it. Ill move away from this cesspool soon anyways. Going to find a secluded island or farm in another country where i can get away from all of the pettiness in America.
In order to make any change at all authority MUST be gained. All of the Occupy demands require immense authority, the maximum. Article 5 of the constitution is the only method by which to empower that authority because it is democratic majority. Accordingly consider unity amongst Americans as a PRIORITY. CONSIDER removing the conceptual divisions that keep the generation conducting Occupy from working with other groups.-----
The first step is to promote the constitution. We all share that. Done well by Occupiers, the other divided groups will be shamed because they have allowed there deceived partisan weakness to position themselves separate from the principles of unity that the constitution actually holds. There are aspects of natural law that are very empowering but they must be used by human hearts and minds to be known. Then our shared existence is appreciated and empowered to survive and evolve.
You forgot to mention the Tea Party. Remember Nancy? She got her ass handed to her by the Tea Party.
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You'll never be happy. Change comes from within.
Go home. Try to contribute to the system, rather than trying to bring it down. Grow-up, mature, stop bitching because other people are more talented than you, and so have more stuff. Stop being so damn greedy OWSers.
Mic check.
First thing to fix, is larger shit buckets for the protesters.