Forum Post: Holy Crap! Michigan has gone "right to work"
Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 7, 2012, 7:33 a.m. EST by factsrfun
(8342)
from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/us/michigan-labor-protests/index.html
We need National outlawing of "right to work" laws so that labor cost can rise.
These are not right to works laws, real right to work laws would protect ALL your constitutional rights, you wouldn’t have to give up your guns or quit smoking or pee in a bottle as a condition of employment.
UPDATE: 12/14/2012
This is a real Representative.
Of course they (the Kochs) had to have the people throw out of the process to accomplish this.
(R)epelican'ts don't like the little people much. They much prefer the SUPER people that pay for this shit.
http://www.politicususa.com/freedom-pepper-sprayed-rick-snyders-michigan.html
I'll believe corporations are people when the state cops pepper spray them into submission.
I'll believe corporations are people when the state cops pepper spray them into submission.
Best line ever.
Thanks.
I was awe struck watching this unfold yesterday. It's the Bush style kick the dog on the way out the door, as after the first of the year they wouldn't have the votes to do this "favor" for the Kochs, as we voted enough of the ALEC supported candidates out.
If you missed it, this a moving speech by the Dem leader.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/06/michigan-lawmaker-slams-republicans-in-emotional-labor-rights-speech/.
I saw this last night.
Here's something else they are doing in their lame duck session.
This all I can find so far.
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/12/07/news/state/doc50c1e02c80ac9396315713.txt
At least the press here, has finally woken up to the reality of the Kochs.
Or should I say the antidemocratic evil.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121206/BUSINESS06/121206066/Koch-Brothers-Americans-Prosperity-leading-charge-Snyder-s-right-work-bill
Bunch of idiots.
Also known as teabagge(R)s.
Yah, I'm over them.
Don't be.
They are still hard at work.
Demint at heritage is no Christmas present.
The Heritage Foundation we already know. I like these people where I can see them.
We'll see.
I'm sorry, I'm not in a very good mood after what Snyder/Kochs have done in Michigan.
If I seem a bit grumpy?...........I am.
In a padded cell would be a good place.
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http://www.elon.edu/e-web/pendulum/issues/2005/04_07/opinions/flag.xhtml
So your article states some southerners (not blacks, or civil rights advocates) consider it a matter of "southern pride", and "common courtesy".
But the article mainly says it is a sign of evil, hatred & racism.
Here is the last paragraph of your article.:
"The Confederate flag has to go. There are many good qualities about the South, but there are other ways to glorify them than just this one. Its meaning has not and will not change: even if Southerners consider it to be just a symbol, it is still entrenched in racism."
Is this what you believe the true meaning of the confederate flag is?
BRAVO - VIRAL WORTHY - TWEETED.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/06/michigan-lawmaker-slams-republicans-in-emotional-labor-rights-speech/
That is a good one. Thanks for the laugh.
Wrong, the power grabbing unions brought our land to it's knees and now it is payback time and your non leader pres is not going to be able to stop it. Signed by "We The People"
Stand with decent hard working Americans! Not the corp 1% oligarchs who exploit us & prey on ourfamilies!
http://motorcityliberal.blogspot.com/2012/12/michigan-police-pepper-spray-arrest.html
Sorry no.
That's what the Koch brothers are doing.
WE the people had already voted out a mess 'o' the lazy brained ALEC supported (R)epelican'ts.
This was done lame duck and forced and paid for by the Kochs.
Those power grabbing unions are down to just 12% of the workforce from a high of 35% back in the mid 50's. Blaming this countries problems on unions, or welfare completely ignores the fact of where the money and power is going in this country. Back up your claim with some facts if there are any.
http://philebersole.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-decline-of-american-labor-unions/
Here's one that supports the claim that the wealth is really being funneled to the top tenth of one percent.
http://desertbeacon.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/top-income-composition.jpg
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On one hand this is a disaster
On the other hand this is an opportunity
What was it that cost thr Rs so heavily in the election this year?
It was not their crazy positions supporting the 1%
It was the fact that there were a small number of crazies who told the truth about the 47% & about abortion & voter suppression.
OWS is exactly the kind of organization (?) to shout their evils for the next 24 months. Most of our "skills" are PR - not political action. .
We must continue our partnerships with women's groups, unions, the Brennan Center
I think we should thank Papa John's & Denny's for a very interesting lesson
Imagine adding to OWS all of the voters who had to wait in line for hours
I fear the House is lost for a decade, here in AZ the Ds won all the competitive seats giving us a 5/4 split, yet the four Rs will win no matter in 2014 the districts are set, I suspect it is similar across the nation, the Rs by winning big in 2010 then the census may have the House locked.
Some things I see that gives hope is in the non-voters they seem to be very aware that the game is rigged against them, one reason they don't vote I think, if the Ds can be moved a little left i think it could get more people involved.
Too bad we only poll everybody or voters, we never poll non-voters, it seems.
Man the trolls really hate this post - they apparently do not like it when we speak out against the program of reducing/removing workers rights.
Could be the part about outlawing these "right to work" laws on the basis that it gives certain states unfair trading advantage at the expense of wages and therefor since duties to off set the increased social cost of these low wages cannot be allowed under the Constitution then the only solution is to outlaw them nation wide.
Or maybe it's the thought of real right to work laws.....
They ( The Greedy Powers That Be ) do not want the public to be aware of their activities against them.
It does seem like the simplest factual statement will set them off, go on FOX news and say the top one tenth of one percent are richer than they have ever been or that it is true of the Forbes 400, something even Forbes reported, and see how they react...
They hate the growing public awareness to their programs - and the public cluing in on their double speak ( Right to Work = Right to fire you for no cause ).
setting modesty aside, I think the whole it's not really "right to work" and throwing in the gun thing is a great wedge issue for "us"
How so?
they sell these laws as "right to work" some GOP voters actually think they are, I think pointing out the rights that are not protected makes the point, that they are not, many GOP voters care a lot about gun rights and pointing out that these laws do not protect their gun rights might get through to them and cause the bills to have a little trouble as the GOP try to roll them out across the nation, the pee in the bottle is something everybody knows about and some places won't hire you if you smoke at all already, it may not be all warm and fuzzy but "right to work" has got to go...
POINT TAKEN - RTW HAS GOT TO GO.
Welcome to the disunited states of Koch industries.
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012312060056
Even self claimed nerds are too fuckin' brain lazy to write their own legislation.
http://alecexposed.org/w/images/c/c8/1R10-Right_to_Work_Act_Exposed.pdf
I haven't commented on this much lately, but checking in today I see the trolls have really come down hard on this whole thread, maybe hit a nerve?
Thanks for the links, remember Scot Walker telling the construction owner in WI that right to work was next after he killed the public unions.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/a-transcript-of-the-walkerhendricks-union-discussion-805952v-151052965.html
Everywhere you look in the MSM it's all about the phony "war on Christmas".....
Never a word about the very REAL and VERY painful, war on the working man. A war led by the Koch's with the aid of ALEC.
speaking of wars, here's my latest push back on the drug war
http://occupywallst.org/forum/please-sign-my-petition-to-ask-the-white-house-to-/
Thanks........signed.
Here's one on anti-union activity.
http://democracyforamerica.com/petitions/27-unions-are-democracy-and-freedom-stop-republican-attacks-on-unions-in-michigan-say-no-to-right-to-work?t=eclectablog
Signed.!
Solidarity
thanks! me too
"Under the bills, the right to strike and picket would be limited; membership and paying dues into the union could not be a condition of employment."
Legalized slavery, Wage Slaves!!! And we the TAX PAYERS pay for their FOOD STAMPS and X4 ER HEALTH CARE, SUBSIDIZED HOUSING, oh and the PENAL COSTS when their uneducated kids turn to crime after being denied jobs!!! Just so Employers can boost profits for the corporate bottom line.
Nice work you stupid American and America Hating 1% CONS! May you burn in HELL!!
and you are 51% more likely to be killed at work, what kind of "right" it that?
One of the first things W & Cheney demolished in their initial blitzkrieg after the prolonged theft of office, was the New beefed-up OSHA Rules Clinton worked on for years and finally signed into law.
How many people died or were handicapped by their exclusive service to the 1%, in this one act??!!
Go hire someone then or shut the fuck up.....pro Dems like you give liberals a bad name.
Legalized slavery, Wage Slaves!!! And we the TAX PAYERS pay for their FOOD STAMPS and X4 ER HEALTH CARE, SUBSIDIZED HOUSING, oh and the PENAL COSTS when their uneducated kids turn to crime after being denied jobs!!! Just so Employers can boost profits for the corporate bottom line.
Nice work you stupid American and America Hating 1% CONS! May you burn in HELL!!
You are caught in Crab Mentality.
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They should call it: Right to work for shit wages and no benefits 'cause that's the real result those laws.
I agree, what do you think of making them real right to work, by saying you cannot be required to give up any Constitutional Right as a condition of employment?
You can only be judged by your job skills not any other factor.
And that's not all!
With (R)epelican't/teabagge(R)s you also have many more of your rights stomped all over.
Beware. All of this and more is coming to a State near you compliments of those retaliatory little curmudgeons the Kochs.
They are very angry about those states that helped get Obama re-elected in spite of all the money they spent to prevent it.
http://www.politicususa.com/live-michigan-rights-optional.html
People must be informed that ANY Republican in ANY office is just crazy, it seems that it would be an easy case to make, and would help immensely in regards to wealth inequality over time, fewer GOP in office the better off everyone is all around.
NO Republican at any level of government is safe, not if you want to have half a chance.
This needs to be pointed out to the next poster who squawks about the need for "balance".
How heavy a weight is needed to "balance" this kind of bullshit?
As we both know, and I have posted about before the concentration of wealth is not slowing in fact as the disparity is growing at an increasing rate, this is happening because of many "little" decisions by many people, therefor it is a "natural" event and will follow the rules of nature, which is "trees don't grow to the sky" (they fall down). If we don't act to reduce the concentration of wealth American will fall down, as well as the entire industrial world. Some countries are doing things to address the wealth inequality, they are already the best places in the world to live and American will look more and more like Mexico as our wealth disparity grows to match theirs.
The GOP are committed to making the well off rich, they believe in what they are doing, and they will not give up or be stopped easily.
While so many here are busy saying.
Look!! Over there!!! Obama!!!
Or.
Look over there...................the middle east. ( it's been like that since I was born)
Look over there!! The FED!
These are the real wedge issues and for the most part a distraction and minimization..
The real battles are being won by the Koch conse(R)vative/libe(R)tarians in the States.
http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/27/the_united_states_of_alec_bill
Hey shooz and good morning - there were a couple of good segments on the PBS news hour last night.
One about the upcoming vote on Michigan's Right to work = Employers right to fire for no cause.
There was also one on the upcoming fiscal cliff - a poll that showed on a 2 to 1 basis that people feel if nothing is done to address this in a meaningful way - that they will be blaming the RINO's in office ( no they didn't say RINO they said republican - but RINO is in all regards the truth )
Any way nice to see the growing public awareness being talked about.
There was NO public vote.
I hope they mentioned the Koch connection.
I hope they mentioned the teabagge(R) connection.
I hope they mentioned that the arrested protesters are being charged with felony's.
I hope they mentioned that King Rickie's emergency manager law was struck down in a public vote.
They did mention those things - not the protestor arrests - but the other points. They did mention and show the protestors. They mentioned a group was there from Wisconny in support of the workers/people - didn't catch who they were but it sounded like they were there against the right to work BS.
Michigan, where democracy goes to die.
Compliments of King Rickie, the Kochs and the chickenshit GOP.
That was also mentioned : Michigan, where democracy goes to die.
did they also mention this?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021960630
8 out of 10 RTW states are the highest in poverty.
That was mentioned in a segment where Proos(?) "RINO" was on spewing.
Since the beginning of time the battle is and has always been between inherited power and equal opportunity, it is natural it is what most people would do, put family above village, if the village is to survive it must write rules that recognize that folks are folks.
In this case it has more to do with retaliation.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121210/NEWS06/121210062/With-video-Democrats-release-clip-Republican-leader-discussing-right-work-plans-tea-party
It's all about destroying a people ability to communicate, through mutual bargaining..
The right to work laws - were misnamed - on purpose - to confuse the public into thinking that they were good and that they supported the worker.
They are not good and do not support the worker.
They basically give the employer the right to say - Your Fired - for no cause.
I think we need to press for real right to work if they are going to call them that, no more conditions of employment that have nothing to do with the job, let's see how many Republicans support real right to work.
Actually I think it would split them right in two.
Living wage safe working conditions no more then 40 hours a week.
I think that this is what is breaking them apart.
The RINO/corpoRATists fighting the remaining republicans.
It's almost time to start fighting for at least 40 hours pay a week, I see them using "hours" as a tool more and more.
Yes - keep em under 40 hours and they are not full time and so do not qualify for benefits - hence the growth of temp employment offices/business.
OR change labor laws to give part time workers the benefits of full time employment. Another call for universal health care - another call for a living wage for all.
Another play is "off the book" work and other favors that employees can do to show they want 38 hours this instead of 25 like the employee that don't do favors. I saw things done is small business I never imagined working in corporate.
Sure sure - Yes - there are those in charge of assigning schedules who will make it a game of who can kiss my ass the best gets the most hours or the better day time schedule or or or or or
Yes some people in a position of authority love lording it over on those under them.
Just as bad this feeds some people who need the work/hours to belittle themselves to try to get ahead.
That's kind of what I'm saying if there were real right to work if they hire you they pay you for at least forty, at least a law saying every job has to pay at least MW X 40 hours per week sort of a minimum pay thing, what would that be right now? around $300 a week? come on if you can't pay that do you really need somebody?
It really should be a simple matter to watch dog by using information that is already being collected on a yearly basis. IRS information collected for the purpose of tracking taxes to income to job. To see abusive employer trends by looking at the turnover in the work force = W-2's filed on a yearly basis - if it is a small or big business it should work the same though probably sticks out like a sore thumb on a small business more than on a large business.
Right to work means just that, the right to work . No requirements needed except the willingness and ability to do the job. Unions hate this because it takes away unions control , union dues and union leaders power.
BS - it means employers can let you go for no cause and you have nothing to say about it.
So? Better that than the rubber rooms that the NY teachers are in. The bad teachers that can't be fired due to the unions but continue to be payed at taxpayers expense for doing nothing but sitting in a room with other " teachers".
Other than the far right wing attacks and the attacks from private power, the biggest problem we have are unions who have forgotten their roots!!! Our unions don't function the way they are supposed to function. Before in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the unions would never have just become a tool of a political party (like they are for the Democrats today). They would challenge any and every politician. They used to know how to organize for union and non-union workers. They used to know how to organize unemployed people. They used to fight for human rights. Before most of them were destroyed, they were tackling the race issue way before any civil rights activist.
Unions are needed to democratize the country. The elites fear unions to death. Occupy has to try to revive the worker union movement.
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Other than the far right wing attacks and the attacks from private power, the biggest problem we have are unions who have forgotten their roots!!! Our unions don't function the way they are supposed to function. Before in the late 1800's and early 1900's, the unions would never have just become a tool of a political party (like they are for the Democrats today). They would challenge any and every politician. They used to know how to organize for union and non-union workers. They used to know how to organize unemployed people. They used to fight for human rights. Before most of them were destroyed, they were tackling the race issue way before any civil rights activist.
Unions are needed to democratize the country. The elites fear unions to death. Occupy has to try to revive the worker union movement.
Blame the victim much?
"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike" May 2, 1933 Adolf Hitler
I thought that was Scott Walker, are you sure did you double check that quote?
It's in the ALEC handbook!
But they credit it to Ronald Reagan don't they?
RR based, of course! AAAAaaaaaaHhhhhhMmmmeeeeeeeNNnnnnnnnn!
Even Reuters knows the truth.
RTW is nothing but union and workers rights busting legislation.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/11/us-usa-unions-michigan-idUSBRE8B91AJ20121211
Michael Moore's live link.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/
thanks for the link
Freedom to Freeload!!!
It's the GOP way!!!!!
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/10/mi-democratic-rep-right-to-work-bill-allows-for-freedom-to-freeload/
Along with lying through their teeth.
Wear red in support of this (R)epelican't blood letting.
http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/wear-red-monday-show-your-solidarity-with-the-workers-of-michigan.html
I will. Thanks
GOP is chickenshit.
Another GREAT speech on the subject of "right to freeload" legislation.
http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/video-rep-brandon-dillon-eviscerates-michigan-republicans-for-jamming-right-to-work-though-without-debate-or-input.html
Michigan!
Where democracy goes to die.
Compliments of the Kochs, true haters of freedom and America.
Bravo - Very Viral Worthy = http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/video-rep-brandon-dillon-eviscerates-michigan-republicans-for-jamming-right-to-work-though-without-debate-or-input.html
TWEETED
Thanks DK........:)
The way this went down, needs all the publicity it can get.
When he speaks of prop. 2 he's talking about the voter repeal of "emergency manager" legislation.
King Rickie didn't care for that and his Koch brothers handlers insisted on FORCING "right to freeload" in retaliation.
Thank YOU - for sharing the video - as the people need to see any and all outrage of any of their representatives in government at the stealing of workers rights ( The Peoples Rights ) and protections.
Loved the round of applause - Hopefully this will be re-visited ASAP - to throw out the BS stealing of rights.
MLK On "right to work".
This from 1961, before the libe(R)tarians formed and took up the flag.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/12/09/what-martin-luther-king-had-to-say-about-right-to-work/,
the link is dead but here:
“In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, such as ‘right to work.’ It is a law to rob us of our civil rights and job rights. Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining by which unions have improved wages and working conditions of everyone…Wherever these laws have been passed, wages are lower, job opportunities are fewer and there are no civil rights. We do not intend to let them do this to us. We demand this fraud be stopped. Our weapon is our vote.” —Martin Luther King, speaking about right-to-work laws in 1961
http://www.epi.org/publication/martin_luther_king_on_right_to_work/
In Michigan, King Rickie eschewed the vote.
More than once.
The GOP doesn't like being bothered by such things, as they may go against the wishes of the Kochs.
PS: Great words from MLK.................:)
thanks for the working link.
When such a young man as Dr. King speaks with such insight and clarity, it is hard not to believe in the Divine.
More on this lame duck insanity.
http://veracitystew.com/2012/12/07/lame-duck-insanity-in-michigan-abortion-right-to-work-union-busting-video/
Here's an update worth watching
http://beingliberal.upworthy.com/a-politician-loses-it-on-the-state-house-floor-says-what-all-of-us-are-thinking?c=bl3
Just not for my husband.
Can the GOP possibly get any lower?
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/13/republican-lawmakers-proposal-exempted-husband-from-michigan-right-to-work-law/
ALEC/Koch connection.
Clearer every day.
http://www.politicususa.com/koch-puppet-governors-continue-dance-masters-rome-burns.html
Get ready..........it's coming to State near you and they've already said
DAMN all Democracy!!!
That's the way it went in Wisconsin and Michigan.
This governor keeps saying it's not about helping the companies it's about the workers, then brags about how it's going to bring in business WTF? does he even listen to himself?
ALEC prevailed and the people lost.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS06/121214016/michigan-house-senate-bills-passed-abortion-gun-emergency-manager?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
The people lost a lot. ALEC gained a lot.
Now back to your regularly scheduled wedge issues.
I hear a drone flew someplace.
I guess you saw this
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1339761/hours-after-kindergarten-shooting-michigan-gop-calls-for-allowing-guns-in-schools/
They've attacked the public schools in every other way they could think of.
Is that really so surprising?
"We need National outlawing of "right to work" laws so that labor cost can rise"
HOW DO WE DO THAT?
fed law supersedes state law
the Rs in the house would block anything like that
we need to elect pro-labor people
removing as many of the GOP from office as possible will be part of any progress..if your net worth is less than ten million you better get the GOP out of office if you want to survive the next few decades
Americans have been betrayed by our leaders.How come our union leaders do not call for a general strike?They are in bed with the politicians who are in bed with the corporate overlords.And we are the one's getting screwed!
how come the easter bunny does not call for outlawing hasenpfeffer?
When was the last time there was a "general" strike in America?
If you think unions are in bed with the corps, you are _
Have you seen any of the demonstrations in the state capitals?
The union organizing?
The unions have done nothing but support a system that is anti =worker /I see lip service/nothing more.
general strike? and what like 2% of people stay home? they may not be perfect, but even I don't see calling for something then coming out worse off, that's sort of how thing got rolling in Michigan the unions tried for an amendment without enough support, same for the recall in WI against Scott, you know what they say about going after the King.
First we have to keep talking about wealth inequality every time it gets on the TV we win, if we can get it on FOX NEWS that's a home run.
I really believe people know about this they want to get behind something, we just have to be something.
See the GOP ignore the people!!!
See the GOP kiss Koch ass!!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021960857
Teabagge(R) imposters are also on the loose.
http://www.eclectablog.com/2012/12/watch-out-for-imposters-at-tomorrows-rally-in-lansing-seriously.html
Just more lying sack of shit (R)epelican'ts.
One tough nerd, Rick Snyder ~ Still time to contact him!
Top Michigan Newspaper Turns On Snyder: Slams Governor For Sneaking Through Anti-Union ‘Right-To-Work’ Legislation
By Josh Israel on Dec 9, 2012 at 10:42 am
Gov. Rick Snyder (R-MI)
The Detroit Free-Press, which endorsed Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder (R) in his 2010 campaign and has generally supported him since, blasted his decision to ram through a union-busting “right-to-work” law in a lame-duck legislative session. At Snyder’s urging, the state House and Senate each passed versions of the law this week. The editorial board slammed his move as a “failure of leadership” and observed that his “about-face” amounted to a betrayal of Michigan’s voters. The paper noted that while it “trusted Snyder’s judgment,” that trust “has now been betrayed.” It expressed disappointment on behalf of independents who thought Snyder more independent and visionary “than partisan apparatchiks like Wisconsin’s Scott Walker or Florida’s Rick Scott,” adding:
His insistence that the legislation was designed to promote the interests of unionized workers and “bring Michiganders together” was grotesquely disingenuous; even as he spoke, security personnel were locking down the capital in anticipation of protests by angry unionists. Snyder’s ostensible rationale for embracing right-to-work legislation — it was, he insisted, a matter of preserving workers’ freedom of association — was equally dishonest.
The real motive of Michigan’s right-to-work champions, as former GOP legislator Bill Ballenger ruefully observed, is “pure greed” — the determination to emasculate, once and for all, the Democratic Party’s most reliable source of financial and organizational support. While Snyder and the Republicans in the legislature claim “right-to-work” is good for the state’s economy, studies show such legislation can cost workers money. The Economic Policy Institute found that “right-to-work” laws cost all workers, union and otherwise, $1,500 a year in wages and that they make it harder for workers to obtain pensions and health coverage. “If benefits coverage in non-right-to-work states were lowered to the levels of states with these laws, 2 million fewer workers would receive health insurance and 3.8 million fewer workers would receive pensions nationwide,” David Madland and Karla Walter from the Center for American Progress wrote earlier this year. Earlier this year, Snyder told a U.S. House committee, “Right-to-work is an issue that is a very divisive issue… we have many problems in Michigan that are much more pressing… I don’t believe it is appropriate in Michigan during 2012.”
But Thursday, Snyder announced he had changed his mind and, a day later, both chambers of the Republican-controlled legislature rammed through similar anti-union bills with little debate.
http://www.michigan.gov/snyder
Contact info for Rick Snyder, union busting Gov of MI - http://michigan.gov/snyder . Call him at 517-373-3400 and on Twitter at @OneToughNerd
thanks, he could veto the spending part and let the people have a chance at least...
Here's a whole bunch of stuff on the topic: http://www.randirhodes.com/main.html
Post election loss scorched earth!! The birthplace of UAW is now FREE TO ENSLAVE!! This is just one of many fronts, in this Lame Duck Tet Offensive by the 1%-GOP. Post Election Loss Revenge!!
^ reported for switching handles to abuse.
hc did you go and get yourself banned? well you know they don't like paid hacks on here
big Randi fan eh?
That figures. You love talking points.
Stop embarrasing OWS and start organizing. Your lame comments only hurt in the long run. Not so much this one. but the majority of the other two thousand.
the advertisments on her site help to undermine the post office/. glad you approve/.
Know any good RW Nut sites?
Keep endorsing the downfall of the postal union. Sell out.
You all about the money? I bet you have a lot more than I do. Dont get used to it.
how exactly does "carbonate" hurt the post office?
UR the Tampon Biz guy, hc.
Don't barf wild accusations, I'm all for the USPS.
Some words of (R)epelican't truth.
It's not about fairness, it's about crushing unions.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121210/NEWS06/121210062/With-video-Democrats-release-clip-Republican-leader-discussing-right-work-plans-tea-party
Surprise, surprise teabagge(R)y is involved too, along with some more "business" men..
Felony's for the protesters.
http://www.freep.com/article/20121210/NEWS06/121210073/michigan-right-to-work-protest-arrest-felony-charge?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Isn't King Rickie's totalitarian kingdom a GOP paradise?
Slap the unions, slap the cities, slap the land and slap the protests!
All hail King Koch/Rick!
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One of the major reasons for the financial difficulty of the big companies: ATT, GM, etc, has been the cost of pensions and entitlements that appear to have been negotiated by the unions. Increase in wages, increase in benefits, etc. are, obviously, a positive outcome. But it will amount to shit if employers end up outsourcing jobs if that option is more profitable.
Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that unions have outlived their purpose. Just as the federal government cannot afford the current level of entitlements, a lot of the private employers are finding it increasingly difficult to keep up with benefits. Employees will have to simply contribute more.
Maybe it's corporations that have outlived their usefulness maybe we should disband them the way we once did:
https://www.youtube.com/user/storyofstuffproject?feature=g-high-u
Now next time those union workers decide to drink and get stoned on the job, the idiots will get fired.
you mean it's really a right to fire law?
Weird statements. What workplace makes you give up your guns at home or stops you from smoking off he job site? Links?
Pee in a cup i get.
So are you saying the other two aren't possible or just haven't happened yet?
Here's a link to the smoking thing I don't think anyone's done the gun thing yet but why not? What with workplace shootings and all seems they could and "right to work" laws sure as hell don't stop them.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/story/2012-01-29/not-hiring-smokers-privacy/52874348/1
True Liberal terror..offering workers FREE choice
BS it is the corpoRAT rule moving forward - RTW means that they do not have to have cause to let you go - don't like wages that have you applying for food stamps and other aid? Too Bad So Sad - keep it to your self if you want to keep your job - OH and be sure to kiss all of your bosses butt's every single opportunity you get or risk their displeasure and you end up on the street. You will be on the street because you were not a willing enough slave.
Unions tend to be their own worst enemy. I think everyone would support better wages and benefits for workers. What most people detest is stupid union enforced work rules. Go to McCormick Place in Chicago. An exhibitor is not allowed to plug in a light, thats the job of the electricians union. Blocking a person from reaching down and plugging in an extension cord and shutting down a workplace if they do aint gonna make friends.
Wages have gone down as union membership goes down and the wealth of the 1% goes up all at about the same time I think they are connected, if people want to have half a chance they better learn to stick together because the the guy they're working for is going to cut labor costs if he can, that's his job.
If you haven't noticed the "right to work" states employment rates are a lot lower then the states that aren't. What does that tell you?
"right to work" states have lower wages higher rates of poverty and take more federal dollars for welfare
Sorry, but you are wrong - read this it may enlighten you:
http://www.johnwcooper.com/right-to-work-laws/right-to-work-laws.pdf
Your guy resorts to “cost of living” to adjust for wages, there is more than one way to count the cost of living, what about the cost of living with crappy schools?
http://www.takepart.com/photos/5-worst-and-5-best-states-educate-your-kids
Schools are not crappy because of "cost of living" it's the parents that are the problem.
Look at all other minorities and compare them to the black minorities and you will see a big difference in "children success" rate.
The reason their children are successful is not because of the schools but because of the family
The vast majority of the black community take no responsibility when it comes to raising their children to become successful.
And the ones who have become successful are called "uncle Toms". I will guarentee you that the blacks who are successful have a strong family values - that's what makes children succede -
So you think it is because they are black? Sounds kinda ignorant.
"vast majority of black community take no responsibility .......raising their children"
That is absolutely wrong. You cannot prove it, and you sound like an ignorant racist.
Well it has nothing to do with "being ignorant' - do a search on the web and compare the black learning community to the aisian community, the indian community or any other minority community.
Then come back and tell me what you have found.
I've studied the issue for decades & see NO correlation to skin color.
Sorry.
That IS ignorant & racist.
Apparently you have never been around the people who live in "low income housing" nor have you been in neighborhoods where you have better not be there after dark.
WRONG!!!!!
grew up in the projects of Brooklyn NY, & never left NYC.
More likely you have no experience. But again our personal experiences are not the most important element here.
The people who suffer in our society do so mostly through no fault of their own.
You may prefer to 'blame the victim' so you feel better denying any help for you fellow American.
That is not uncommon.
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The people who suffer in our society do it through no fault of their own because! You forgot to finish the sentence.
Why do these people suffer compared to the vast majority of the population who are not.
Are you saying these people are incompetent to take care of themselves - have no clue about learning or getting an education, have no understanding as to what it takes to become successful?
Have no clue that there are government provided programs out there for them to help them get back on their feet or for that matter get a GED and move on to college. Or don't have the knowledge to know that the unemployment office has a data base listing jobs.
I guess you put these people in the catagory of being "dumb asses".
No then I would blaming the victim again.
If you still got room after your morning hate how about some facts this AM?
http://www.bigeddieradio.com/blog/default.asp?NID=1923
yeah, I'm sure it's just that the parents in right to work states are crappy parents...you might be on to something there, after all they vote Republican
race bait much?
It looks to me that there is a strong trend of higher wages in non “right to work" states.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm
http://news.yahoo.com/states-laws-192537126.html
They dont want facts or "enlightenment", they prefer their lies.
It's apparent there are a lot of bitter people on this site - especially when it comes to thair attitude towards someone who owns a business and is successful.
It would be really hard for me to continually have that on my mind on a daily basis thinking that someone who is successful owes me. I wouldn't call that " the power of positivie thinking".
I ain't met many people bitter towards business owners here. I have met many ignorant people who always "blame the victim". And never look at a problem deep enough to get beyond a simplistic narrative.
No body here is against success or feels successful people owe us. That is you blatantly lying about us in a weak attempt to dismiss our valid and accurate opinions that challenge your bias towards 1% corp plutocrats over the 99%.
BAM!
Let me get this right - no body here is against success or feel successful people owe us.
Wow, I guess I have been reading something different - I guess "wanting to take all the profits away from businesses" was posted on another site.
Yep - U must have seen that on another site - because unless you forwarded the idea - occupy supporters have not.
I ain't seen that. "ALL"? Nah. Nothing wrong with taxing the wealthy though.
But that ain't about bitter or owing us, that is about fairness.
It's also about "where the money is" some things you just do because it's the way things are, some people are born rich others have to work for a living. That doesn't mean anybody is punishing anybody, some people got the money to pay taxes, some don't it's got nothing to do with punishing anyone.
True dat!
They hate being caught in their lies.
ows is about warfare on just about aything you can name thats successful,.... private business and people that are successful and make a profit which they think is " bad". They advocate failure by what they support, "green energy, unions, democrats, large govt.
Co's move jobs to lower wage (low cost of living) states who are willing to undercut the rest of the decent hardworking American workers by holding down wages.
They are like "scabs" crossing the picket lines.
They have NO HONOR"
If we stood together co's would be forced to pay a living wage.
Again, it is apparent you know nothing about what you are talking about when it comes to commenting on Companies and their motives.
It's easy to spew negative explatives about businesses when you yourself have never been involved in either starting up a business, owning a businesses, or managing a business.
Wrong!!! But my personal experience is not relevant. How arrogant and biased towards business OWNERS is it to suggest that ONLY business owners can weigh in?
Your prejudice is transparent. The pro business (anti worker) states who pass wage stagnating laws have NO HONOR!!!!!
They have betrayed decent hard working American families for the almighty dollar in the form of campaign contributions from the worker exploiting corps that keep them in office.
Your personal experience is relevant. How else could you ever understand what it takes to own and operate a business or for that matter understand what it takes to keep the doors open.
You have no clue - all you know is what you hear from others or read - you have never experienced it to have an intelligent judgment about business owners.
.
WRONG!!!!! Again. You have only been wrong. All kindsa wrong!!!!
I have managed, started, and currently run my own business. I also submit to you that not only business people can comment on business issues. That would eliminate most of the 99%.
That isn't fair. So you are WRONG to suggest that. Sorry.
So, tell me a little bit about your business - just out of curosity what are your quarterly revenues, how many people do you have working for you and what is the percentage of your quarterly profit margin
I am not looking for details just a little info to give me some understanding that you do in fact own a business - not saying you don't though, but the info I asked for, anyone who owns a business shouldn't have a problem providing.
Seems more likely you just want my personal info to personally attack me! You M.O. is to attempt to discredit your debate partner rather than discuss the issue at hand.
You position is so impotent you are desperate to find some personal info on me to dismiss my valid accurate challenge to your biased pro business, anti 99% posture.
Well I have a very small business but I will give you no numbers because I believe in privacy and know that there is a reason the govt needs a subpoena for financial disclosure. I have also managed a larger business of 24 employees.
But no matter, I don't need you personal info to argue the issue. And you do not need mine. Unless you can't argue your position and must resort to childish personal attacks.
Issat it?. Are you spent? Beaten? No more substance?. Only personal attacks?
Don't give me that crap - without disclosing any pertent info about your business you can provide a ball park quartely revenue, and profit margin -that will have nothing to do with your privacy -
Hell, I can say I owned a small business, managed 50 employees - would you believe that?
But the true fact is, I worked for a company and our revenue was around 1.5 million with 6 employees and our average profit margin was around 40%. How hard is that for you to do? I didn't reveal any personal information about the business - just provided some numbers without detail.
I'm not interested in your personal info or experience. It is not relevant.
My current small business has no employees (but the family) and my annual income is none of your business and irrelevant. When I managed a company with 24 employees we made millionsevery year.
So?
None of this is related to the issue at hand. The right to work states that undercut the pro labor (99%) states are doing so for campaign contributions from worker exploitative businesses. These states have colluded with those businesses to keep wages low.
They have NO HONOR.
You betray your class when you advocate for these pro corp 1% policies and against decent hard working American families.
YOU have no honor!
I can tell you never owned nor managed a business based upon your answers - need I say more - bye.
WRONG!! & WRONG!! As always, yet still!
But that is irrelevant. You have been silent on the substance on the issue, & instead prefer the meaningless distraction of your weak effort to discredit my opinion.
So clearly you are without a valid point! And therefore I have dispatched your sorry ass. Consider your puny position dismissed.
You are a LOSER!
Definition of a loser is when an individual or individuals condem a person or persons for being successful and believe that it is their right to take away from those whom are successful, the fruits of their labour and distribute it to other losers who don't know how to be successful.
That's the definition of a true loser.
No it ain't. You need a better dictionary.
Certainly you are a loser if you can't come up with any substantial argument regarding our discussion.
Get it.? Loser!
vq never answers questions, just obfuscates. A blowhard.
I have answered ALL his questions. Your friend has tried desperately to distract from the issue because his position is without merit, or honor!
He can't because he doesn't have the knowledge to do so - he continually skirts around the issue with other questions to move away from the original question - lots of people on this site do this to try and change the subject.
Apparently there are a lot of younger inexperienced people on this site that don't have a clue about anything beyond their circle.
Free at last, thank God, we're free at last. It actually has nothing to do with civil service collective bargaining; municipalities will never relinquish collective bargaining because to do so would require a county exec, or his delegate - a dept head - to negotiate individual merit raises. These raises would then have to be individually presented to the legislature. It's just too resource intensive; collective bargaining actually serves the municipality. It would be nice if union dues were optional for all but due to the necessity of collective bargaining they never will be.
Taxes should be optional too, just cause I choose to live here is no reason I should have to chip in, same for working a union job, just cause I want the pay and benefits is no reason I should have to pay dues right?
Why is everyone so afraid of freedom?
Why should i be forced to pay union dues if i dont want to? Why not allow the people to decide if they want to be involved in a union? If they do, so be it that is their choice. Freedom anyone?
Here is a newsflash. You don't get to pay union dues AND you still benefit from progress made by the unions. That's not freedom, hon. That is a bunch of crap.
If there is demand for the unions they will exist.....if enough people are miserable and there are legit working condition concerns there will be enough people fighting the battles. Why do you have to force it on people?
That would be like me forcing you to pay for something you don't want/need. What if I added a "fracking tax" to your paycheck - using that money to fund fracking in the local area. Doesn't seem quite right does it?
There is a demand for unions. Why do you devote so much time to breaking them?
Again, you don't have to pay and yet you still benefit. Doesn't seem quite right, does it?
Who says i'm benefiting? That's the whole point of a consumer economy....a company that forces you to buy their product could just claim you're benefiting from a product...the only way to tell if you're really benefiting is by allowing me the decision to buy their product.
I'm not out to destroy unions - i'm out to let people decide themselves if they want to join one. If there is a market for unions - then unions will exist...i've got nothing against them - and in situations i believe they have/can be useful. I only have a beef with the fact that in some instances you're not asked to be in one - you're forced.
You are out to destroy unions. Period.
The whole point of a union is to protect workers. Period.
And the most mindblowing element of this is that you expect me to buy into your BS. Again, what you are essentially seeking is to receive all of the benefits without any responsibility.
"You are out to destroy unions. Period."
That couldn't be further from the truth...period. I think if there is a demand for unions (and in many instances there are), they will continue.
"Again, what you are essentially seeking is to receive all of the benefits without any responsibility."
No, i'm not...i'm seeking people to have the choice.
There are lots of things in the world everyone wants - i have personal desires just like your personal desire for unions - but i cannot force them on the population because i think it's a good idea. Whats wrong with letting people choose on their own? Don't you believe in democracy? The right to have a choice???? Why does that scare you?
People always believe in freedom...unless it's something they have a personal interest in - then it's ok to taint it a little to get what you want....when it might not be what your neighbor wants.
Have we talked before? Because you make it seem like i'm on here blasting unions all the time or something...i've got nothing against them other than forced membership.
BS John, it's called union busting. There is a history here. Right to Work laws are shit and you know it. In those states that have incorporated it, the wages are lower and there are less benefits.
You are only interested in freedom for corps. Not for the people. You have made that clear.
Why would i only be interested in freedom of corps? I don't own one...i'm not rich...i'm interested in freedom for the people. How is forcing someone to pay for something freedom for the people exactly?
John, if you opted out to pay union dues and the union fights for an increase in pay are you going to opt out from the increase in pay after it is negotiated? Or are you going to make a claim for freedom here as well?
Apparently John likes to benefit - just does not like to contribute.
Sounds like a certain small percentage of the population - Hey?
Yep!
So Sad that there are people who are so self centered - self absorbed - so self serving.
It's only sad when they don't recognize it as such or spend a quantity of time pretending it isn't.
AHhhh yes - rationalizing to them self that they are a good person. I think they really do know better - and that is why they defend their poor position so strongly - because otherwise they have to admit to themselves that they are SHIT as individuals.
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Why should I have to pay for my rights? If I have to pay for it, then it isn't a right, now is it?
Why should you be included in the benefits?
You sound like a mafia guy. I'm not paying anyone for protection. I will be represented or I will protest. I will fight for my rights until I get them. My liberty is not for your profit.
Blow me, I'll grow one for you.
Profound(ly sad)
You're paying for representation.
You're paying for negotiators.
You're paying for a grievance system.
You're paying for a service.
If you don't pay, you shouldn't be served.
Don't you agree?
Let him opt out of union benefits - let him deal with non-union negotiated pay and benefits. Understanding that non-union jobs are the 1st to suffer lay-off in a business downturn. Let him be the rugged individualist - all on his own.
They still haven't explained why they have a problem just going down the street to the non union factory.
Let alone why they give their full support to ALEC.
Well it is kinda obvious - IMO - they would not work those kinds of jobs to begin with - and their purpose in bashing unions is the continued decline of the worker. So their going down the street to a non-union job is MOOT.
Exactly. It's a product. And my rights do not hinge on a product. I have the right to work for pay. I have the right to protest. I have the right to assembly and I have the right to free speech. I don't need your product. You people just don't get it. We aren't going to trade off one power for another, we are taking the power back. Get used to it.
No, it's not a product.
So you're wrong.
Why don't you tell us what your plan for worker rights is?
What's your plan to deal with worker grievances?
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Why do I have to opted out in your example? What if i thought i was being mistreated - i'd be in the union paying dues and get the benefits of it.
"Or are you going to make a claim for freedom here as well?"
If someone decides to increase my wages that has nothing to do with my freedom. Would i benefit from other people's work in this instance? Yes....but the important point is that there was demand for these peoples work as they took it upon themselves to be involved and spend the time and money to fight for something they believed in...noone force them to do it on my behalf. They were free to exercise their rights and form groups to fight for what they believed in...that's perfectly fine.
Is it wrong for other people to benefit when a certain group of people are fighting for what they believe in? I think that's a positive in a society....not a negative.
Now, we are full circle. You want the benefits but not any of the responsibility.
"You want the benefits but not any of the responsibility."
You're basically using Romney's argument against me - you're claiming there are a bunch of freeloaders out there that would ride the coat tails of the people doing the work out there for the unions. I tend to disagree with you...i think people would step up to the plate if there was a demand for it.
Nowhere did i say that...at all.
I could also twist what your saying and put forth - "you want my money to further your personal beliefs...even if i don't believe in it or want to give my money for it"
Really?
What is it you thought you said that was in favor of labor unions?
and how in the FUCK is ALEC legislation in favor of labor unions?
HOW in the FUCK is ALEC legislation in favor of anything positive for the people of the US at all?
Nothing i've said is anti-labor unions - show me a direct quote of that....direct quote shooz - none of your manipulations of my words.
The only thing i have a problem with is forced dues - don't make someone pay for something if they don't want to...that doesn't make me anti-labor unions....that makes me pro-freedom to put my money where i think it will be best used...along with everyone else having the same right.
Things can be carefully worded john.
Would you consider yourself pro "right to work"?
The legislation itself is anti union as well as written by ALEC.
A BS answer for everything...ask you a direct question to back up stuff you're saying about me and you can't provide any evidence.
I would consider myself pro-union without forced dues. If people want to form unions thats great - but you can't force everyone to join one - it's an individuals choice.
Wiggle and squirm john. Wiggle and squirm.
You wouldn't answer the questions.
You just gave the same old CATO response.
Why don't you just admit the truth?
You're anti-union, across the board.
So you can stomp on it?
U B one sick puppy.
What??
That's what all those wasted words added up to.
Yeah, ok shooz...for some reason you have an inability to form coherent sentences from your internal thoughts.
I really don't need to talk to you..nothing ever gets accomplished - you argue like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum - it's always pro-dem BS no matter how f'd up it is. I'm done talking to you - go bother someone else w/ your partisan BS....i'd rather talk to a brick wall.
BULLSHIT john.
You just want the stuff they have provided for free.
You are the brick wall.
It's proven that conse(R)vative thinking is LAZY thinking.
PS: I will soon be petitioning for auto banning of people who come here in NON support of the peoples issues.
Say an auto ban at -100?
You're getting close? Aren't you?
Well now - that is an interesting idea. Individuals who come to the forum to basically shit everywhere get an auto-ban. Yeah I like the sound of that. Be proactive for the people or - BE GONE.
The more I think about it, the more I like it.
It's very libertarian. You have a "choice" to be in support, or be gone.
No need to accept negativism or wrong thinking - stinkin thinkin BE GONE.
All they do is come in here and repeat the same crap they were saying 12 months ago..........Like it's new.
It's not.
They are trying to play the game of wear down the resistance. Keep spewing the same crap over and over and over and over again - with the intention that people will get tired of slapping down the BS - then they figure their BS will stand without being refuted - then they figure if they keep spewing that they can poison rational thinking.
Well I helped organize the WalMart walkout initiative, that was pretty fun.
By the time I was leaving the store, I was handing the info to all the cashiers and inviting them to our "party". I support rights to organize. If your employees are organizing against you, there is something wrong going on.
And the last thing we need are near Nazis like you have an autoban hammer to wail away with. Although Im sure you, the mascot, and BEnsdad/middleeast/wSmith would love that. This is horizontal, no one gets that power.
So, your pro "right to work" then?
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Don't worry, they'll be slapped down by "right to work".
Pretty much NAZI legislation, by your definition.
If you agree with that, you are disingenuous.
"If you agree with that, you are disingenuous."
Go reread the comment and then answer your own question.
Yes - lets ban everyone's ideas that don't fall directly in line with yours shooz - the "kiss the democrats ass no matter how f'd up the situation"
That's very democratic shooz....i am starting to see what a government run with your ideas would look like.
How so john?
It's you wishing for all the ass kissing, for putting FLAKESnews style garbage..on the page.
You speak nothing but repetitions of the same CATO anti union garbage that's been around for 100 years, and you want to pretend it's "original" thinking.
Like you're Mr. individualist.
It isn't and you're not.
Not on any level at all.
All you anti OWS negativists ( please note your karma) should be banned.
You've brought nothing but negativity and anti worker crap to the table.
You need to eat that crap..
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I dont know anything about the John Birch Society, that seems to be something you've spent some time studying. I guess that one link I posted was pretty damning haha.
As far as AJ, if you ever actually occupied, you wouldnt be asking me.
Theres a character on here that we have affectionately dubbed "The Mascot" who appears to have the reasoning of a five year old, so its obviously a ploy.
This mutant must have trolled me at least 100 times in the last month alone.
You just enjoy name calling.
It's what you've always done here.
Let's for just a moment get real here.
What have you offered in this thread that's in support of labor unions?
What support do have to offer for those that have labored in factories for years, just to get dumped on in a lame duck session that was funded by the Koch brothers and written by ALEC?
I don't see a thing except you looking for folks to call names, so please don't accuse anyone else acting like 5 year old.
Shooz isnt comfortable with Occupy and the whole unity thing.
Well you know smart people know you're the last person to speak for Shooz anyway right? Just a weak attempt at distracting from your own whiny anti occupy sentiment.
Man up! Get in the street! & fight for the progressive change that benefits the 99%.!
I've never been comfortable with the John Birch society.
You embrace them and promote them.
If that's OWS, then you are correct.
At this point I will ask you to show me in NO uncertain terms that OWS does indeed support the John Birch Society, as well as Alex Jones.
It's tough- I try not to talk to those guys cause you wind up getting tag teamed and down voted like crazy with the 3-4 different screen names they seem to make up to pump themselves up. Can't help myself sometimes though - the bullshit meter goes through the roof and i cave.
If there is a demand for unions then why does the membership for them continue to dwindle??? To me, that is not a demand but only more individuals freeing them selves from the chains of the power grabbing unions
It's called union busting. Look it up. It makes it even harder when you have a bunch of dirt bags pushing for legislation that doesn't support them and people, like you, that have failed to do any meaningful research.
union bosses set on their asses and collect dues from hard working folks and do little or nothing for them. They only entice the workers to demand more pay for they can increase their union dues. Unions are the disease of America
You are full of shit. Again, take your ass to a country where your free market has played out so well.
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You are an adult. Deal.
No, I would not support Walker. He is a Koch whore.
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Yeah, why are the corporations and the Koch brothers so afraid of freedom? Go ask them. You work for them.
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Why in fuck should you be allowed to FORCE your way into a union shop and not pay your dues?
You don't want a union? Start your own business.
Isn't that what you ......LOL "rugged individualists" are all about?
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Why not have real right to work laws? Ever try to get a job without peeing in a bottle? You know some places don't let you smoke now and I can see them not hiring people who own guns what with workplace violence and all.
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Who's forcing you to work there?
You're not.
You have the "choice" to go down the street.
Why is that a problem for you?
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You can go work at Phoenix U.
Lot's of truckers don't join the teamsters either.
Besides, why should your personal teachers issue apply to factory workers?
Talk about a BS answer - that would be like me saying because your wages and working conditions are sucky "just go down the road and find something else". It's alright when you're forcing your personal preferences for policies on people....but it isn't when it's the other way around.
Hi janus.
I know you want to be a freeloader, a guy who want's to ride for free on the coat tails of those that actually paid the price.
You've made that crystal clear.
I know that you don't answer questions about much of anything with any clarity.
I know that you are in complete denial of how WallStreet is at the core of all these negative things.
I know that you sympathize with the Koch brothers.
I know that you are in full agreement with the actions taken by one of their premier "clubs", ALEC.
In fact, you mostly BITCH about things that OWS supports and protests.
So really, what is your purpose in coming here and attacking those that support OWS?
You do realize that OWS is a staunch supporter of union rights?
And just as staunchly against ANY legislation written by ALEC?
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"I know you want to be a freeloader"
Provide me quotes that i've said to back up your argument. Direct quotes.
"I know that you don't answer questions about much of anything with any clarity"
Direct quote please.
"I know that you are in complete denial of how WallStreet is at the core of all these negative things"
Direct quote please to prove your point.
"know that you sympathize with the Koch brothers."
Direct quote please.
"I know that you are in full agreement with the actions taken by one of their premier "clubs", ALEC"
Direct quote please.
"In fact, you mostly BITCH about things that OWS supports and protests."
Direct quote please.
I'm assuming i'll recieve no direct quotes - which again proves my point that you are completely full of shit.
OK quote monkey.
1.) You support "right to work" , Profoundly anti union legislation, written by ALEC. A profoundly anti democratic organization. That makes you a free loader as you still want the same wages and benefits.
2.) See any of your responses to direct questions, this one included.
3.) You speak not a word against them, so there is no quote.
4.) See response #1.
5.) You BITCH about unions.
No you won't get quotes, because I'm not a quote monkey and I'm not digging through all the threads to find them.
Now, here's simple question in search of a simple answer.
Do you support legislation written by ALEC?
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A teacher recently put it best
"ALEC has no legal authority to draft legislation."
I see John's point in a way. I am also pro-union, I'm in one as well. I work with several people that don't pay dues and it is because they have gripes with the union not doing enough for job security. Uh oh I had a slight criticism for a union. Please don't attack me and call me an ALEC supporter because of it. And yes the workers I mentioned full well know it's corporate policies creating a lot of the dilemmas for the union in the first place.
Since you're a moderator, you should really take it down a notch in your attacks on people. You bring up great points about union busting but you have garnished downvotes for the way you have presented your point. In my opinion.
trevor?
Why don't you just answer the question then.
No anecdotes. No hedging. No he said, she said.
Do you agree with " right to work" legislation.
PS: Yes it's cookie cutter legislation written by ALEC.
If you don't know how that works, I can provide you with the links again.
PPS: it's anti-union jerks voting me down. they are having a fun little romp.
But us Pro unionists are standing together.
"you can't scare me, I'm stickin with the union!"
Solidarity
Again? Aw...........say it isn't so. You have to provide the links..............AGAIN?
It's like some folks here never saw even ONE of the many threads on the subjects of the Kochs, or even ALEC.
And it's like pulling teeth, to get an honest, concise, succinct answer on how they feel about either.
It's quite simple.
Unions........Yes
Alec..........GTFO
Kochs........GTFO of ALL State government.
Intentionally obtuse people really tick me off.
Agreed..........................:)
It must be why I get ticked off a lot when discussing either subject, along with libe(R)tarianism.
Yep.
Are you even in a union?
Many, many years.
Why do ask?
Another attempt to discredit?
The question is irrelevant.
Just asking. I don't converse on this forum to discredit people but instead to share ideas and discuss issues. Occasionally topics do get heated though.
But even if you were not in one doesn't mean "you're discredited." You could have your own business or be in a job where there isn't a union. I don't know you.
I don't agree with the "right to work" legislation. Which is why I said "you brought up great points about union busting."
Your entire argument has been he said she said. You put words into people's mouths and try to distort their views for your political agenda.
Not necessarily in regards to me on this post, but in regards to previous commenters. As well as you've done this to me on other forum posts.
Where was my argument about "he said, she said"?
It was you that led off your response with a quote from an anonymous teacher.
A quote, I might add that was designed to minimize ALEC.
An item you did not address, beyond that minimization.......And what of the Kochs?
As far as "right to work" being for free loaders?
Although I came up with it on my own yesterday, I found today that there are others that feel the same way.
http://www.alternet.org/economy/call-michigans-job-killing-anti-worker-law-what-it-right-rip-unions
It's a quote from a teacher who interrupted an ALEC meeting where she was telling ALEC members they should have no role in writing legislation because they have no legal authority to do so. She also went on to criticize them for not involving teachers and the community. It's actually from an awesome quote.
You're doing that twist thing you do again.
I actually posted the video 4 days ago. - http://occupywallst.org/forum/awesome-use-of-peaceful-protest-with-small-numbers/
If you really think her quote tries to minimize ALEC, you're wrong. In other words she's saying "YOU SHOULDN'T BE DRAFTING LEGISLATION YOU HAVE NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO BE DOING SO."
I don't think anyone who works at their job can free load from their job. Your free-loader theory is just noise.
Gosh trevor, I just checked this thread and your ONLY comments are attempts to discredit me.
You can let that brave young teacher speak for you, but ALEC has and still IS enacting legislation in the States EVERY day.
They do it by using corporate funds to bribe (R)epelican'ts to do their dirty work, as they just did in Michigan.
Plus your friend ( or puppet) RKG spoke FOR this legislation.
So why don't you comment in strong solidarity for all unions that are getting fucked by this Koch/ALEC legislation?
RKG? I don't even know who that is. Why are they my friend?
I just provided you with a link to a post about ALEC where I praise a woman for protesting against them. You accused her quoted words to be nothing but minimization. Remember?
You just blatantly lied about me trevor, and it's not the first time.
We're done here.
In regards to your comment below... how is it a lie?
I said "I just provided you with a link to a post about ALEC where I praise a woman for protesting against them. You accused her quoted words to be nothing but minimization. Remember?"
this was you 42 minutes ago "A quote, I might add that was designed to minimize ALEC."
We are done here.
In a healthy society a union would not be needed. But we have the Greedy/ILL in positions of power/authority/employment to contend with. So the need for people to unite in defense of workers rights.
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Last union job I had I was given a choice. I decided that I liked getting 400.00 more a mnth 360.00 after dues and a guarantee that non-union jobs would go 1st in any layoff. So I joined the union.
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Freedom would have been having the people collaborate, draft, and vote on legislation.
This is not the same as "freedom."
There is much more than meets the eye here.
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Unions are the best friend of the decent hard working American 99%.
This is just more anti 99%, pro 1% conservative policy that must be repealed.
The fight for decent hard working Americans continues.
GO Michigan go and this is a step FORWARD
Forward for corp 1% oligarchs. Backwards for decent hard working American 99%.
Done in the cowardly, sneaky way it deserves. In time it WILL be repealed because it is anti 99%.
Should be a bronze statue made of the great Gov Walker of Wisconsin for getting the ball rolling on this
Every dog has his day!
Glad the courts overturned Walkers criminal efforts to takeaway the rights of decent hard working Americans.
Maybe you overlooked this somehow or have your Mama read it to you. And yes it is from my favorite place "the Wall Street journal" http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303918204577448313090640398.html
Didn't the Kochs buy that election for that little twirp Walker? No matter. It started a movement, woke up the 99%, created the1st occupation, took back the state senate for the people, and the courts overruled walker criminal efforts to take away workers rights.
We'll get that motherfucker Walker.
Go back and set on the couch and eat your twinkies. Walker prevailed and he is a true patriot. Everyone knows it is just a matter of time before other States will follow suit. Hats off to Michigan and let this spread throughout our great land. p.s. Now go out and buy yourself a huge confederate flag
You support the Confederate States of America as well?
Here's a little bit of news you appear to have missed!
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0409.html
Another loser (like walkers court overturned effort to steal workers rights)
http://labornotes.org/blogs/2012/09/wisconsin-anti-union-bill-overturned-court
Yes I truly support the confederate flag and many have a misconception of it's real meaning, including you
So you're gonna tell me what I think of the confederate flag?
Ok let's hear this. What do I think of the Confederate flag?
Lazy folks that suck the hardest on the Gubment teat?
That's only true if you want to be a realist.
Hahahahahahahahaha!
That makes this even better.
sit
FFS, you sit on a damn couch. You don't set on a couch.
No I do not set on a couch and yes my house has wheels under it
http://blog.ml-implode.com/2012/04/u-s-standard-of-living-has-fallen-more-than-50/
It will only get worse if unions intervene more
Unions increase workers living standards, corps have kept wages low by outsourcing our jobs, & busting our unions.
unions have caused increased labor raises for some that deserved it and also for quite a few lazy workers as well. Unions love workers that are unproductive and this is what caused a lot of companies to start outsourcing their work off shore. Every time the big three received raises then the cost of living also rose and the little guy always suffered because of it. There is more items made better (in the US) that are made from non-union shops compared to the unionized ones.
The only reason corps outsource is to make a little more profit, & to bust unions.
Corps should be penalized for outsourcing, & rewarded for hiring union workers.
Corporations that rid their selves from the chains of the power grabbing unions will then bring their work back home. Until then they should be double taxed on the items shipped back into the States and rewarded if they break ties with the evil job killing unions
Except corps don't bring jobs back! & they don't only outsource union jobs either. How do you blame unions for that reality.?
Yeah, I mean.........you sound so concerned about the little guy that you have pushed and support legislation to the point where unions aren't necessary.
Unions have gone by the way of the dinosaur and are becoming extinct. They have destroyed more jobs / business's and just need to disappear
That is a line of shit. They didn't destroy jobs. You have corps that insist on paying 2 bucks an hour and they move. You have nothing. Go play "free market" in name your country in Africa.
Right now I work for a shop that is owned by caterpillar (non union)
That's nice. Nobody gives a damn. Move to name your country in Africa and see how that "free market" has played out.
http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/canadian-commentary/500-why-lying-about-unemployment-is-so-important
World wide depression is on the horizon
Quick grab the canned goods & ammo, head for the bunker.
LOL
Better stock up on beans N bullets and do not forget about your rebel flag
Only losers support 'the lost cause'
Read a news paper!
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0409.html
The nytimes is a bunch of hog wash
Perhaps the NYTimes story that Lee surrendered & the Confederacy defeated was "hog wash"?
Did that not happen? "Was it not real?"
We should trust WSJ and the New York Post moar.
You should only trust the FN and nothing else
Confedrate flag.?
Be proud of it and fly it high in the air
"no respect for true meaning of the confederate flag"? What true meaning is that?
Why? I thought you were gonna tell me what I thought of it.?
What is there to tell but you have no respect for the confederate true meaning
Ok. you are being a deliberate dipshit and here to waste time.
Noted.
We cannot have a discussion "only if I am in complete agreement with y'all ????
You aren't discussing. You are throwing shit out there that has no merit.
You are intentionally trying to present yourself as the stereotypical hilljack.
You are here to waste time.
The NY Times is a shill for the obama administraion. Its motto, "All the New That's Fit To Print" is a lie. it should read " All The News That Fits, We Print".