Forum Post: Hi. I'm a Muslim, and I'm confused why women in Western countries are forced to cover their chest, and men are not.
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 4, 2011, 11:24 a.m. EST by ConfusedMuslim
(12)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Hello, my name is Ahmira, I'm a Muslim girl.
I'm new in the USA, and I'm a little bit confused...
Why women in the Western coutries are forced to cover their chest, and men are not forced to cover their chest?
I'd always heard that the women in Western countries have the "same rights" as the men, and that Western people criticized Muslims, because in some Muslims countries the women are forced to cover their hair, while men are not forced to cover their hair.
I was surprised when I realized that women in Western countries are forced to cover their chest.
I saw a lot of men without a T-shit in public, men with a nude chest in public. And I didn't saw any woman. So, I asked a young lady why that happened, and she explained to me that if she walked in the streets without a t-shirt, with a nude chest, she could be arrested, because that would be deemed "immoral".
I'm really shocked.
Where are the "equal rights"?
Equal nudity right for all! Hmm, complete nudity right for all! :D We should add it to the demand list. lol
In some cities and states women are allowed to.
Its a problem but a rather small one as most women would choose not to do this however every arrest of this nature is antithetical to liberty.
In some Muslim countries, women are allowed to walk in the streets with uncovered hair. Tunisia and Turkey, for example...
I think that some places are more conservative than others.
It's an old story: you're not perfect, so I can kill anybody. You should have heard the communists ...
"I think that some places are more conservative than others."
This. And it's just as true here as it is anywhere else.
And my only response to your original question is, "there is, unfortunately, no society anywhere in the world that always, 100%, perfectly lives up to their ideals." I think that opens up every society to criticism - and justifiably so! We should always be striving to improve - but perfection is no way to judge anything human.
Cops aren't lawyers nor are they expected to know every law. They tend to arrest first and let the courts fight it out.
That said courts have litigated the "topless" debate many times and they almost always side with the woman.
Feel free to bare it all.
I live in Canada, and its legal for women to go topless here if they choose as well. Most do not.
Shut up terrorist
Oh, that's a simple question. Because we don't care what Muslims think of us westerners.
Has to do with what the culture considers sexual or erotic. Sexuality is at the heart of more then a few religious laws. I guess some societies blame the woman for her appearance and require her to cover up. Maybe the guys that wrote the bible, koran, book of Morman, or whatever just didn't have any self control when it came to women and felt like blaming women for their sexual feelings. Equal rights will probably come as we get over our superstitions about god.
It is to preserve and protect the women from leering types and inappropriate advances. If the men don't see it, they won't lust for her. When she does marry, her beauty has been preserved for her husband, who will protect her as his prize as his wife, his friend, his comforter, and the mother for his children. If she is not covered, she becomes community property for any and all to stare at, lust after etc. It diminishes her and makes her a sex object, with the man's first objective being attracted to her for that reason, he sees it, he wants it, then he has to begin his pursuit for conquest. That is western culture. There are different dances of intimacy but also a lot of broken hearts along the way. The eastern way of not dating just getting married and being with that one person sometimes lacks the charisma and passion of western romance, but it provides more security for the culture and more dignity for the women, who don't end up feeling used like when western women find their boyfriend has cheated on them.
I don't know much about eastern thought or philosophy. My own cultural upbringing finds this kind of "protection" of my honor by society difficult to accept at best. It makes me feel like it's my fault if a man looks or acts, rather then it being his inability to control himself. It makes me feel like the man is too weak to avoid sin on his own. The woman seems forced into accepting this morally feeble individual, sight unseen, as protector, when he can't even control himself. I suppose it's natural to prefer the culture one is used to though. I certainly do prefer the freedom I feel I have over the security of being kept like a prize and hidden away from the world. I find the rewards worth the pain and heartbreak along the way.
If the woman flaunts her sexuality, dresses in ways that will entice those who see her, that part of the attraction is her fault, but only that part. The women covering themselves take that element of seduction out of the possibility for the men. It is not that the men cannot control themselves, it is just better for them not to be tempted by dozens of women he may see every day just in the course of going about his day. The women are not forced to accept any man who proposes to them, they can choose who they want, and they are allow to see them before accepting a proposal. It is just done in a different way, the man's family, background, morals and suitability are considered by her family before he asks her family for the right to ask for her hand in marriage. Then the decision is his. He has great self control, waiting for his marriage before being intimate with anyone. The benefit to both of them is that they have never known anyone else, they learn about that part of life together from each other, keeping each other's secrets etc. If either of them is a lousy lover, the other one would not have had anything to compare them to, so there is less unhappiness. The women do not feel that they are hidden from the world, the priorities are different, to them raising children is a great responsibility and they are revered for that and for making a nice home for their husband. If they want to work, they are allowed and are allowed to keep their earnings, the husband must support them and take care of her. Divorce is rare because they each understand the seriousness of the commitment they have made to each other. The children understand it is also their responsibility to take care of the parents, they don't put them in nursing homes, they respect them for their wisdom, and honor them.
We've drifted away from the question of covering our breasts but I guess it all comes down to doing what your culture finds acceptable. Whatever system works for you is fine with me, as long as I don't have to change what works for me. If a man assaults a woman he should not be permitted to blame the victim. If we as women here in the west dress in what our society considers an acceptable manner, there isn't any excuse for a man to force himself on us. I'm not willing to accept an arranged marriage for myself, nor am i willing to accept a concept of morality that makes me feel like a second class citizen or property. If i chose to visit a different culture I would accept their rules of dress as a matter of courtesy, as a good guest should. I find more opportunities for myself here and I accept the responsibility for my actions that comes with what I see as complete freedom.
If it does not bother you to have people, any people looking at you in a low cut, revealing shirt that is your choice. It does not mean that you are inviting people to sex, most of the clothes are designed that way, it is fashion and many women do not even give it a second thought. Rape is a crime of violence and power against another person, whatever the trigger is for the rapist no one usually knows. I think many times it is just random, whoever is there at the time is who he accosts. You were raised in a different culture than eastern women. It is good that you have respect for the customs of other countries and would not want to force them to accept your country's customs while there. Iranians think they are free, but we would not think so. Saudi women cannot even drive in their country there culture is different.
You are confusing God and religion. Religion seeks to control. God is the energy of creation. Not the same.
They may not be the same, but my personal belief is that religious groups are real, with all the failings any group of people would have. I am guilty of using the word god as a substitute for religion because I don't personally believe in any kind of god. I slip into the error of treating the two terms as synonyms.
Ah, a true atheist. Do you really believe that everything is just a series of accidents? No reason for anything? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truely curious.
I'd like there to be a god and something after this life, but wanting it doesn't make it true. Billions of stars and planets, the accidents could happen just right on one of them. There is a lot I don't know and god or some unknown accidental spontaneous creation event are just two of those things. I've seen some arguments for intelligent design, i'm just not convinced. If there is a god he forgot to put much faith in me i guess.
Ever heard of E=mc2 or the Laws of Thermodynamics? Energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light. The laws of thermodynamics state that energy can neither be created or destroyed only change forms. By the way science defines energy as the ability to do work. What has this got to do with god? Well according to Einstein's equation energy and matter are interchangeable; if you speed up mass (multiply it by the speed of light squared) you get energy; if you slow down energy (divide it by the speed of light) you get mass(matter). So matter is a kind of frozen energy. If you define the energy that animates living things as life energy and the matter that makes up our bodies as stored chemical energy, then living things are energy sinks (a conglomerate of various types of energy). By the laws of thermodynamics, energy can't be created nor destroyed only change forms. So conception wasn't the beginning of you, only a change in form of energy. The same with death; there is no end, only a change in energy form.
I don't know that there was much of a "me" to speak of prior to conception or birth. We throw fertilizer on plants, with sunlight and water the plant reassembles these things like little lego blocks to build more plant. I'm not aware of any other consciousness within me so I'm left with a conclusion that this arrangement of legos has a new or unique consciousness. When this body dies, the building blocks fall apart and will get reassembled into something else, but I'll be gone. I get one chance to live and make things a little better then they were before I came. Who knows, it's not like science has all the answers, we're stuck making due with what we know at the moment. Like I said before, i'd like there to be a god and an afterlife. Certainly more then just donating my atoms to dozens of different life forms.
Double boing
You don't have to, in fact we rather you don't. boing
No idea what you're talking about... in NY women have the legal right to go topless. And in many municipalities complete nudity for all is permitted.
because women have been taught to be ashamed of their bodies, most are too weak to leave the house without make-up or checking themselves in the mirror.
vanity is a dominant human ailment and is more destructive than most would assume.
most of the commerce market is in some way related to and dependent on human vanity. Advertising markets in the US capitalized on this nature during the 1920s - it's been all uphill for cosmetics and vanity products since then and downhill for the human value system
Hey,
Please pass this on if you agree. We are working on setting a date.
Force Change, Boycott Capitalism
until we have full government resignation and a new online voting system with verification so we can rebuild our country and eventually our world.
We know what the problem is, let us fix it and move forward together.
When you look at a republican or democrat, congress or FDA official, Judges and Justice Department, you see criminals.
Our corruption dates back decades to when those, who in trying to preserve slavery, had to find new ways to preserve it and so created a scientific and advanced form of slavery.
Only two components were required -- the illusion of freedom & choice and the taking away of the freedom to live off the land.
How else would you get a person to submit themselves to mind numbing or degrading work unless you oppress them into it.
Our current system is rooted in corruption and every attempt in preserving it involves manipulating human thought and turning people against one another.
In America the population has been transformed into two major voting groups but they only have one choice.
They had been distracted up until now with television and American culture which prospered through the oppression of other nations.
Americans allowed themselves to be fooled into using their military and economic dominance to seize resources of other nations and create expanding markets for American profiteers.
Now that technology, competition and conscience have evolved Americans are realizing that our current system of government is damaging and unsustainable.
Our government officials have allowed private profits and personal benefits to influence decisions that affect the health and well-being of people all over the planet, not just in America... how much longer will we allow them to rule over us??
Occupy Washington and demand that all government officials resign their posts.
We will setup new online elections with a verification system that will allow us to see our votes after we cast them, put our new officials in office and work toward rebuilding our country and our world.
Pass this message along to any and everyone, we already occupy the world, unite.
Occupy Washington, Boycott Capitalism, Force Change
http://wesower.org
Need help making a t-shirt. We need to draw a picture of Zooccotti Park with a cage around it. Here are some ideas: Draw a hippie climbing the cage like a monkey and throwing shit.
Draw a hippie rolling in mud and shit like a pig.
Draw a hippies fucking like dogs.
Draw a picture of a hippie eating peanuts like a big fucking elephant. Draw a hippie as a lazy fucking Ape doing nothing.
I dare anyone to watch this and still claim to know anything about anything.
watch http://www.hulu.com/watch/151119/the-end-of-poverty
you are obviously not a muslim. In eastern culture They do the same! You aren't convincing.
In the 60's and 70's and even today there were protesters protesting who were female and who removed their shirts. It certainly got a great deal of attention. In many parts of Europe and especially France it would not. Basically it's a cultural thing. We've sexualized the breast - that in other countries is thought of as a mammary gland. But then this country is great for sexualizing most things. Sex is money.
Because men don't have bewbs.
Some do
I did not need that thought in my head >_<
One more thing: we are waaay too weird about anything even tangentially related to sex; this may change when the babyboomers finally die off, but for now, we still have a lot of unnecessary restrictions.
I believe that if women wanted to go barechested, they would not get much of an argument except from other women. It simply hasn't come up, to my knowledge. My freedom to go naked is limited by your freedom to not have to look at me :)
Hey, I think I should be able to walk around naked, but only when I am in shape. Right now, I am a little out of shape, so I should be fined, maybe executed, for going without a shirt. When I get back my ripped abs I should be paid money, just to show the goods off, but only if I have a faux tan, because I can get really uber pale, like a Twilight vampire; though, unfortunately, I do not sparkle. Under those conditions, I should be stoned, with rocks or a bong, as is the tradition, under ripped abs law.
that's funny good you have a sense of humor!
=) Thank you! We can't always keep things the way we want then, but we can always try to keep our sense of humor. S! MJ
It is our fear, your men wearing burkas will stare at our women's titties
Where I live in the US (Miami Beach) we have no problem with women going topless. In fact, we enjoy and encourage and celebrate beautiful topless women. They're fantastic for our local economy. Tourists travel here just to gawk at them, and women come here for the opportunity to bare it in a place where it's considered appropriate.
Just like in the Muslim world, there are places that are more liberal, and places that are more conservative where people will try to impose their own sense of morality on other people.
Amen. Well put.
The fact that somebody voted my post down is absolutely fascinating.
Human nature is as strange as it comes. I've been trying to be diplomatic and unoffensive and still some people flip out and call me 'fudgepacker, idiot,...' I don't get it either. The only thing I can come up with is that the true 'problem people' are uneducated and easily swayed. Then they get frustrated and bang!
...and any system of governance that gives any random crackpot an equal voice is doomed to dysfunction, because of that. I can think of a pertinent example of one such system of governance, which isn't accomplishing much right now.
techjunkie, as a tech junkie you have a GREAT voice. Being into tech means you are educated and can spread your views to the masses better than the average bear or troll. We have to be careful not to stop others from talking. They will hang themselves. I've noticed that on this forum people who tend to lose their cool lose respect quickly.
Hm. Very true. Very much in line with my overall Taoist philosophy of wu-wei, which Mayor Bloomberg obviously shares. "Act without acting." "Accomplish without doing." He doesn't need the cops to sweep through Zuccotti Park, because winter is going to sweep through Zuccotti Park for him. Way simpler and less contentious to sit back and let nature take its course.
Why you are asking OWS?
I'm posting this here because my cousin is supporting this movement, and he told me that people in this movement are concerned about "equal rights". So, I decided to ask here...
We all burned our bras in the 70s, but soon realized that going braless makes your boobs sag.
There are many documented photographs of women on the internet not covering their chest.
But in most Western countries, women can be arrested and accused of "immorality" if they walk in the streets not covering their chest.
Being accused of "immorality" might get you a small fine in western countries. You won't be stoned like in many muslim lands. If you feel like taking your top off, just do it. Nothing bad will happen.
The court decision in People v. Santorelli et al narrowed the scope of the state's exposure law. Police in Rochester charged seven women for exposing their breasts in a public park. The court found that the law discriminates against women and that the law serves no important government interest. The court also noted that the legislature originally intended to discourage topless waitressing. Therefore, they ruled that the law still applies in a commercial context. Consequentially, state law allows displays like the Aug. 24, 2009, "National Go Topless Day" rally in New York City's Central Park.
The most punishment you would ever receive would be a public nuisance or some hyped misconduct misdemeanor.
Is that a Supreme Court decision? Is that valid for the entire USA?
Maybe the lady that said to me that she could be arrested was wrong. I don't know.
No, it was a state court. You are correct, the laws are inconsistent and probably do have to do with an interpretation of Christianity.
It depends on the country's individual laws; I didn't know about People v. Santorelli et. al. either, until now. However, it is NOT a Supreme Court ruling and thus only holds for New York residents. Toplessness for women is now legal on a town-by-town basis in parts of the California coast, as well as in Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, New York, Ohio, and apparently Texas.
Detained and covered up? Possibly. But going about your normal life I highly doubt you could be arrested and charged. The majority of coverage this topic gets is via disorderly / intoxicated women that are also topless.
Doesn't everyone know this is a joke thread?
What a hoot!
This is such a funny thread!
You prefer holding hands with bare chested men, I am sure.
And chopping heads too I would guess.
If your a nice looking lady and were going around in the public topless or nude then men would be crashing into things and that could be very dangerous for us all.
Go topless in texas ladies. Females can go topless there it's the law.
Titties!
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Because women have big knockers.....nah' mean.
Shut up terrorist
U head chopper?
the paradigm of the mind body separation
leads people to seek an isolated mind of "pure thought".
The body is denied or even discarded as a distraction.
Breasts nurse babies and remind humans how physically real they are
.
I don't accept the mind/body paradigm
All perception of the outside world in which others exist comes through the body.
There are plenty of nudist colonies to join if one is so inclined. I'm like Morrow below. I walk around naked in my apartment and enjoy doing so as long as it's warm enough.
Perhaps Ahmira, this will hit more to home. I see Jews and Muslims mostly as being brothers and sisters. Religious orthadox Jewish women pray separately and the only one to see a woman's true beauty (her hair) is her husband and family. Yet these people fight - and these fights are about boundaries and land, and caused by other things. It is very sad that people fight and have wars which is mostly to improve economies and to keep us from seeing the larger picture, which is that we all need peace and a way to live and survive.
USA does not represent all western countries. If you are seriously interested in the matter, you should do some research instead of accusing all western countries of not having equal rights. Your northern neighbor, Canada is a good place too look at if you want examples of equal rights. For example, same-sex marriage is lawful, and the matter you talked about was the subject of a court case in Ontario, Canada. Some women posed your exact argument and canadian law was changed to allow women to be topless just like men.
If you are not satisfied with the equal rights in your state, I would suggest you bring the matter to court like the women did in Canada. Who knows, you might win your case.
Sorry if I generalized about all Western countries.
What about the Catholic countries in Latin America? Can women walk "topless" in the streets there?
I've lived in Latin America so I can tell you that no, women can't go bare chested there either.
I don't think Latin America is really known for equal rights? Am I wrong?
You're right.
I imagine it wouldn't be much of a problem in Brazil. Women there are very open sexually. I'm not sure, you would have to do some research.
Brasil may be the exception. Take a look at some videos of Carnaval. You'll see plenty of topless ladies. I have to go to Rio one of these years!
Uh oh. I'm telling Rehana on you. :D
Ya, I always wanted to go to Rio for that very occasion! Let's go together and invite ConfusedMuslim so she can taste freedom.
Yah, but the problem with Canada is all those Candians. eeeww. Think I'd rather push barbwire up my dick hole.
Candians?
They're made of candy.
lol!
Wow. Did you just point out a typo? Consider me humbled.
I don't believe you are arab recently immigrated to the USA. If you were you would be insisting men should cover their chests, to be respectful of god and morality, rather than the opposite.
More likely you are a Top Freedom person born in the states and not the least bit surprised by the culture you grew-up in.
I'm Arab. I'm for equal rights. And I'm against forcing people to do anything. People should be convinced of what they are doing.
Thank you, ConfusedMuslim, for straightening this confused, authoritarian, know-it-all person out.
Dear "Shocked" & "Confused", What are you talking about? You must be joking for you can't be serious? Your post sounds like a question a five year old might ask, but clearly you are not five. Your comment that you are "against forcing people to do anything" is equally ridiculous. When you mature a bit I doubt you will not be posting such silly comments.
You sound like a libertarian! That's the core of our philosophy, the non aggression principle:
Libertarianism is about associating with others in a civilized way. Libertarians want to deal with their fellow human beings using reason, persuasion and other peaceful means. We don’t want to coerce. We expect to not be coerced in return. Libertarianism is about freedom. In order to have freedom, we must first have peace. Libertarians recognize that liberty can’t exist without responsibility. So we’re big on accountability. http://georgedonnelly.com/opinion/what-is-libertarianism#.TrQNvHLNRkg
Are you a fan of Irshad Manji, the Ugandan born Canadian lesbian muslim pushing for the liberation of women in Islam, and a "reform and progressive" interpretation of Islam?
Good point. Ya I agree women do not share equal rights as men. We are still better than some places in the world though.
I imagine that the reason why women need to cover their chest in Western countries is cultural, and somewhat related to the Christian religion. Am I right?
I think that some people view women’s breast as a sexual body part even though in reality there is no connection between breast and sexuality. I have asked myself the same question before. I think there are a good majority of women who would not be comfortable without covering their Breast. Sometimes on the beaches in South Florida I see women with no covering on their breast.
I would agree with this statement. In countries and regions where religion don't play much of a role anymore, most people won't even bother to look at you if you are topless.
May someone please explain it to me?
the reality and the ideal rarely ever walk in step, and making women going topless illegal is probably the result of some old white dudes in congress harbouring antiquated ideas about modesty, and having the power to do something about it. women's chests are just extremely taboo in western society, though it is changing. for example, public breastfeeding is allowed in most places.
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Tunisia and Turkey are Muslim democracies, and women there are not forced to cover their hair. They cover it only if they want to cover. I cover my hair, but I do it because I want. I'm against forcing people to do it.
I'm with you, but then again, as an agnostic libertarian, so I'm for topless girls as well ;). If Tunisia and Turkey, as democracies, respect the rights of ALL their citizens, it says good things about their populations, Muslim or otherwise.
I watch what is happening in Egypt right now and I just shake my head. most of the Coptic Christians who were able to flee have already fled.
True. We need some improvement in our culture as well. Nonetheless I think it may have something to do with the sexual nature of a woman's breasts. Also, don't be fooled into thinking that when a people revere equality that this means they automatically have it. OWS proves there is no equality but that we can fight for it peacefully. My question : Why post that question on this forum?
I'm posting this here because my cousin is supporting this movement, and he told me that people in this movement are concerned about "equal rights". So, I decided to ask here...
There have been many movements in Western society that strived for equality. Ask the African American and Latino communities how its going so far. On the other hand improvement is undeniable and so welcome. That is what drives a movement like OWS.