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Forum Post: Help Me to Understand

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 26, 2011, 2:32 p.m. EST by neptune (7)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I'm as fed up as the next person, I'm living in a house no longer worth it's purchase price with an upside-down mortgage. I believe it is the result of bad lending practices and my safe blue collar neighborhood has turned into a ghost town of foreclosed houses and crime.

Your Web site says "The movement is inspired by popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future." And I want to believe this. But I can't find any actual information as to why this is true. Just saying it doesn't make it so. Anyone want to fill me in?

I am also disturbed by some of the anti-semetic rhetoric I have seen protesters spit out. Don't get me wrong, I know alot of people in the Occupy movement and none of the ones I know are anti-Semetic. However, I've seen enough on You Tube and the like to be upset. Anyone want to address that?

29 Comments

29 Comments


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[-] 1 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

I reject the racism on this board. But I also reject the anarchism.
I believe in protesting to affect change by working with and through government. But not anarchy.

This movement is an experiment in Direct Democracy by anarchists has been effective in attracting alot of attention. This movement has managed take advantage of every social/political/economic frustration to gain attention.

However, Direct Democracy in a park will not translate to the government of a country that is the greatest country on earth and leader of the free world.

Our Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, gave us a Representative Republic. No way is a group of anarchists going to improve on what our Founding Fathers gave to us.

I suppose the 98.99% should give proper credit to the anarchists for launching this experiment. It has helped us to discuss and speak out about many legitimate frustrations and problems in our country.

However, no OWS GA will ever take up the legitimate demands of the majority (ie: campaign finance reform, financial reform, corporate personhood) with the purpose of affecting change through government. Because this is not their goal. Their goal is to use the majorities legitimate frustration to gain support for one thing: Direct Democracy and some brand of anarchy.

I believe that 99.99% of people will reject Direct Democracy beyond the park. It is up to the 98.99% to move our legitimate issues with government out of the park. To work with government and through government to enact the positive changes that we want for our country.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 12 years ago

“Confused by the two apparently conflicting views of Occupy Wall Street’s relations with the Jews — The Emergency Committee for Israel portrays the occupiers as a bunch of anti-Semites, while the Forward described Kol Nidre services being held at Occupy Wall Street on Yom Kippur — I went down there myself Thursday night for ‘Occupy Simchat Torah.’ Sure enough, a couple of hundred mostly young Jews participated in joyous dancing and singing with two torah scrolls…I walked through the Occupy Wall Street encampment wearing a yarmulke and was met with no open hostility.” —Ira Stoll, The Future of Capitalism

“Reckless Jew that I am, I muscled my way into the Occupy Wall Street encampment in Lower Manhattan despite multiple reports of virulent and conceivably lethal anti-Semitism. Projecting an unvarnished Semitism, I circled the place, encountering nothing and no one to suggest bigotry — not a sign, not a book and not even the guy who some weeks ago held up a placard with the instruction to Google the phrase ‘Zionists control Wall St.’” —Richard Cohen, The Washington Post

“Occupy Wall Street’s most visible anti-Semite was picketing the Financial District long before Zuccotti Park was occupied.” —Josh Nathan Kazis, The Forward

“To their credit, others walked alongside him with their own signs urging people to ignore the plainly anti-Semitic placard as unrepresentative of the group.” —Clyde Haberman, The New York Times

“The ratio of outraged published reports or commentaries about anti-Semites at OWS to actual anti-Semites at OWS is probably about ten to one.” —Jonathan Chait, New York Magazine

More - http://blog.occupyjudaism.org/post/12187364893/putting-the-ows-is-anti-semitic-meme-to-rest

[-] 0 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

Thank you for the link, making great reading. I was hoping for the first hand accounts from people involved in this group. So far, not very representative of the sentiments you posted. See below.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 12 years ago

The posts on this forum do not represent the movement itself.

Hence, the disclaimer at the top:

"This content is user submitted and not an official statement"

Many of these people have never been to a single Occupy event in the real world. Many are here purposely trying to subvert and some are just the usual assortment of internet wackos & zeitgeist culties.

The link I gave you represents actual events at Occupy Wall Street and the impressions of people who have actually visited.

They are first hand accounts.

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

I assumed there were the subverters and wackos, as in any movement they are moths to a flame. Thanks agin for the link, I will read through carefully.

I just wanted to talk to some people that are really invested. There is an Occupy event coming up in my area. I am thinking about participating but I want to be sure I agree with the ideology that is being "preached" here. I just can't find a real creed or manifesto that I can read and analyze. Plus, I just can't participate in a movement if there are going to be people holding anti-semetic signs or passing out literature. If the movement can't self govern the wackos (at least in part) I can't give it my steel (so to speak).

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 12 years ago

If Donald Trump found himself in a upside-down mortgage situation he would file for bankruptcy or have his creditors take 50 cents on the dollar. You don't need any advise. You're seeing it with your eyes. Double lock the front and back doors with dead bolts and you will be ok.

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

I aint Donald Trump. To me it's immoral to short sale when financially I don't have to. I took on a loan and I intend to stay good to my word to pay it because I can.

As far as locking the deadbolts....don't be a patronizing prick. I have had to tell my 10 year old son he can't ride his bike around the neighborhood because I have seen drug deals and prostitutes on our corner in the past year. Something that never happened in the 11 years I have lived here, in Pompano Beach. I can't live in a fortress. I want my son to have a safe childhood.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 12 years ago

Patronizing prick? You can't short sell because you're not 3 months behind in your mortgage. Sorry you thought I was comparing you to Donald Trump. I wasn't. The Bank will not bother talking to you. You own a house that's not worth it's investment potential. You want a safe neighborhood for your child but plan to stay good to your word. That's noble. Goldman Sachs does not hold that same moral obligation you were taught to accept financial responsibility for your actions. Bundling worthless mortgage securities and receiving triple A ratings was a recipe for disaster. It was a ponzi scheme and it wasn't the fear of "too big to fail" that started TARP funds flowing. If this scheme collapsed it would have exposed the criminals and exactly how they pulled off this scheme. All we were told is that these transactions are highly complicated. I don't think they were complicated at all. Even Governor Cuomo made millions of dollars on the securitization market in Dubai. All these transactions can be cleanly peeled away and understood. I hope the best for you and your family. I wish everyone would just step back and look at what a house really is. Some wood that grows naturally and some sheet rock that covers up plastic pipes and electrical wires.

[-] 1 points by failedeconomy11 (3) from Wilmington, MA 12 years ago

On January 17, 1961; President Eisenhower forewarned this nation in his farewell address;

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military/industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

Today we can recognize that military industrial complex as lobbyists. And America has paid a disastrous price for failing to heed his warning. How many times have we heard of the whole host of our legislators not having a chance to read legislation before they have to vote on it ‒ for instance; both Houses of Congress passed a bill that no one, in either House read, that would have, essentially deregulated the banks?

[-] 1 points by failedeconomy11 (3) from Wilmington, MA 12 years ago

On January 17, 1961; President Eisenhower forewarned this nation in his farewell address;

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military/industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

Today we can recognize that military industrial complex as lobbyists. And America has paid a disastrous price for failing to heed his warning. How many times have we heard of the whole host of our legislators not having a chance to read legislation before they have to vote on it ‒ for instance; both Houses of Congress passed a bill that no one, in either House read, that would have, essentially deregulated the banks?

[-] 1 points by Cathain (18) from North Pole, AK 12 years ago

I'm not sure where you've looked for information but it's everywhere. There are a lot of links listed in this forum, for example. One of the examples I give is the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). It's a corporate funded group that creates self-benefiting legislation. These model bill are passed to ALEC politicians at the state level who pass them off as their own idea, and then push to get them passed.

One current activity that is not getting much attention is the ALEC inspired push to repeal paid sick-pay laws nationwide. They've had some successes, too.

If you want to check out what corporations are involved, ALEC political members, what bills are being pushed - go to: http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

Thank you, this is exactly that type of thing I was looking for.

[-] 1 points by HapteMikael (162) 12 years ago

Anti-Zionism does not equal anti-semitism. Jesus Christ people, get educated. A 2 minute google inquiry should be enough. The intellectual laziness of some of these posters is astounding.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 12 years ago

Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism might not be the same thing, but both are exhibited in full force on this forum.

[-] 1 points by HapteMikael (162) 12 years ago

Ok, there are idiots aplenty on the Internet, what is your point?

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

I'm not making any point. I'm asking people to help me see theirs and to reassure me that this movement isn't an anti-semetic one.

[-] 1 points by HapteMikael (162) 12 years ago

Forget to switch out handles? It couldn't be more obvious this isn't an "anti-semetic" movement, racism of all sorts runs pretty deep throughout our culture, you want to line item veto every movement because you think the anti-Jew bogeyman is hiding behind every face, be my guest. Reassure yourself dummy.

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

I wanted to talk to people involved in the movement, like your sweet and friendly self. Not read a bunch of opinions or accept the sound bites from every side.....should have read the whole post before you commented dummy!

PS I was not switching out handles, who is chasing bogeymen now?

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 12 years ago

Chief, I lost $25,000 investing in Washington Mutual in the stock market. bought it in 2004 and it cratered after the '08 crash. At the time, they were one of the largest banks in the country, a supposedly safe investment. And they were for the first 4 years I had it. Am I mad? Yes. I'm mad at the Wall St. and mad at myself. The market, both stock and real estate, are not "safe" investments, as much as people might like to believe they are. I think some basic regulations need to be put in place to not allow these corporations the ability to bring sudden catastrophic change to the markets, but neither do I expect the government to protect me from upturns and downturns in the markets. I have learned a lesson from this, to buy things that have intrinsic value to them, things you can see, touch, and feel. Your house, while down in value, is at least still there and has a value and depending on the economy, could be worth much more again. I'm not sure what you mean by "bad lending practices", but the basics of borrowing are not hard to understand and borrowers should be familiar with the types of loans offered, costs associated with closing, etc. before undertaking purchasing a home. There are some (not saying you) that tried to bite off more than they could chew because the qualifying was easy, they had a low rate for 5 years and thought they'd flip the house, and then the rate adjusted, and now they're claiming they didn't understand the loan terms and it's the banks fault. I'm not particularly sympathetic to those people, but I think the banks need to get back into strict credit underwriting for home ownership and the government needs to never again be in the business of trying to "help" more people own their own homes.

[-] 1 points by neptune (7) 12 years ago

Let me start out by saying that I'm not very informed when it comes to investing. But, as an average person, with average intelligence and a busy life as a homeschooling Mom - I do my best to make informed decisions. I am pissed off that I made reasonable decisions when buying a home and the stupid decisions of my neighbors has made my investment tank. I bought a modest home I know I could afford (barring loss of income) and I got a small mortgage with a fixed rate. I put down more then the usual 25% to keep my payments low. The value of the home was inflated because of the bubble at purchase, which is why I put down as much cash as I could. Knowing that if I sold the house on a downturned market I could pay off my mortgage and still have the buying power for a similar home after a sale at a loss.

Meanwhile my neighbors who bought homes near me got houses they could not afford and got ballon mortgages or 100% financing mortgages. Their foreclosed homes or short sale homes are being used to appraise the value of my home. Thus ruining the value of homes in our neighborhood. Here is where I think banks are to blame: 1) Letting people get these loans when they clearly couldn't afford it. Something they have severely corrected now, making qualifying for a mortgage very difficult and eliminating the 100% financing crap.; and 2) Using foreclosures and short sales to appraise my home for mortgages for buyers. Therefore, severely devaluing my house. It's like appraising a diamond ring using the worth set on such a ring by Pawn Shops or a thief with an overcoat in a an ally.

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 12 years ago

You sound like a sane, stable person. Unfortunate on your purchase, but they're actually doing you a service not extending easy credit. This will reduce the "bubble" aspects of the market and make the value of your home stabilize. I did the same thing you did on a commercial mortgage, putting down 35% on the mortgage while the market was hot and others were trying to leverage their money with 10%_15% down, knowing I could lease for less and still make the payment. I fought with my grandmother, who would never borrow a dime (she lived thru Great Depression). She would always tell me it could happen to me. I didn't believe her. I'm starting to wonder if she wasn't right after all.

[-] 1 points by Daennera (765) from Griffith, IN 12 years ago

Yes but if you lost 25K on one stock, I'm assuming you had at least several million more in other stocks that have gone down and back up again.

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 12 years ago

How about a few hundred thousand? Not ridiculous when seen as a total, but when the rest of the portfolio goes down with the market , and you lose 100% on almost 10% of it, pretty scary. Advice for all you younguns, mutual funds. Over the years trying to pick individual stocks, overall you'll be down. Diversify, get some domestic and some global funds, bond funds, some REIT's (real estate) and hang on. Most of all, don't get greedy. Take a nice profit and don't look back, even if the stock or fund goes crazy after you sell out.