Forum Post: ++ Has Occupy become a movement for Egyptians instead of Americans? ++
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 26, 2011, 12:38 p.m. EST by Thrasymaque
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Occupy's biggest expenditure almost went to pay for OWS supporters to go to Egypt, and now it seems like Egypt is the new fad; the cool kid on the block. Has Occupy become a movement for Egyptians instead of Americans? Or is it the American spirit which is always concerned about foreign politics?
US Gov't supports Egypt military with 1.3 gigabucks (per year, I suppose) according to http://www.facebook.com/Shimaa.Tahrir . If that is true, is that morally acceptable to you? Are you trying to change US policy in some regards? Which policies are more worth changing than those that amount in effect to hiring people to torture other people?
the Occupy movement is worldwide. it doesn't belong to one country. people are people everywhere and we all have the same worth. corporations control all of our lives globally. think G20 and EU. corporations decide wealth distribution and how the world's resources are used. the Occupy movement is not about Americans or Egyptians. its about people. people who are claiming their right to decide their own destinies. regardless of whether its profitable or not.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/has-occupy-become-a-movement-for-egyptians-instead/#comment-432196
I'm a military brat. I've lived in different countries and experienced different cultures. We are all fundamentally the same (besides the obvious fact that we are all human). We want the same basic things. To have decent work so we can provide for our families. A safe neighborhood for our children and good schools for them so they can have a better life than we have. That's it. Most people are not greedy. Most people want a peaceful meaningful life with their families and their friends. Decency. Corporations are global. Just like air pollution, the problem cannot be solved locally. In fact, nothing can be solved locally.
I agree with most of your paragraph, but not the end. We do all want the same thing, but we all live in different political systems. You don't make a revolution in America the same way you make one in Egypt. You're an army brat, you should know that.
no, you do make revolution the same way everywhere. as a military brat, I know that. that's why the constitution applies to all people everywhere. those "inalienable rights" are universal. the desire to be free knows no boundaries. governments may operate differently, but they operate using the same mechanisms. a Volkswagen bug and a monster truck are very different, but, they both have an engine and a drive train and you can drive both of them using a steering wheel and similar controls. and by the way, don't tell me what I should know. I don't need you or anyone telling me what I should know or what I should think. Live Free or Die.
Occupy is for the world not for a single nations!!!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/has-occupy-become-a-movement-for-egyptians-instead/#comment-432196
It appears that ows originally got its support from Egypt, and ows 's want to help and support our mentors.-we owe the Egyptians so much. the spirit of ows is not about nationalism, its about human rights. the people of ows doesn't consider themselves to be citizens of the usa-- we are citizens of the world--- we support people in other country's as they support us-
What do we owe Egyptians? If anything, and this is a long shot, we owe Bouazizi from Tunisa something, not Egyptians.
We already have Amnesty International working for human rights around the world. I thought OWS was designed to help America. Are you saying it's just Amnesty International #2?
Bouazizi took two weeks to die- his situation so infuriated Serbian Arabic revolutionaries. that they decided to use the Arabic version of gene sharps book- from dictatorship to democracy to help the middle east & north Africa to over-thought their oppressor. ows was started from Cairo. Tahrir Square became Zuccotti Park. ows is just an extension of the arab spring- ows is a springboard to the world. now i replete- we owe everything to the Egyptians- and we will support them in any whey we can. if they request our help- i recommend we go there and help them- returning their favor to us.
Thrasymaque- you are the administrator of this web page- why don't you support ows instead of trying to tear it down-- who do you really work for????
The state of the world’s Human rights
AmNesTy INTerNATIoNAl reporT 2011 22011 011 United against injustice, we work together for human rights.
pdf 405 pages
http://www.multiupload.com/OB6Y4W038F
excerpt: The year 2010 may well be remembered as a watershed year when activists and journalists used new technology to speak truth to power and, in so doing, pushed for greater respect for human rights. It is also the year when repressive governments faced the real possibility that their days were numbered. Information is a source of power, and for those challenging the abuse of power by states and other institutions, it is an exciting time. Since Amnesty International’s inception half a century ago, we have seen and shaped similar major shifts in the power struggle between those perpetrating abuses and the courageous and inventive individuals who expose their wrongdoing. As a movement dedicated to focusing global outrage in defence of beleaguered individuals, we are committed to supporting activists who imagine a world in which information is truly free and in which they can exercise their right to express dissent peacefully, beyond the control of the authorities.
What do we owe Egyptians? If anything, and this is a long shot, we owe Bouazizi from Tunisa something, not Egyptians.
We already have Amnesty International working for human rights around the world. I thought OWS was designed to help America. Are you saying it's just Amnesty International #2?
I'm not trying to tear down OWS, I'm trying to steer it in the right direction. I don't work for anybody.
Occupy is like a fat ugly guy looking at porn on the Internet because he can't get laid, or, rather, OWS spends so much time "caring" about Egypt because it can't create a revolution of its own.
OWS is not for new york city- or for America- ows is for the world- read the top of this web page-- ++++++The revolution continues worldwide! ++++++
training web page http://url2it.com/jtje
Perhaps you should be more specific - I base that suggestion on a pair of assumptions -
that the money that almost went to purchase airline tickets to Egypt was collected locally, by local activists using community outreach or internet tools to connect individually with donors;
that there does not currently exist an organizational structure for the purpose of channeling funds to a central entity
that since no central entity exists it could not have approved such expenditure
that while this website may be closely connected with the New York City Occupy movement - at least in appearance if not in fact by virtue of those who serve on the cyber committee, should such a committee even exist within the Occupy NYC Movement - it does not necessarily reflect the views and positions of other Occupy Movements around the world.
For example - the degree to which this website reflects the views and opinions of Occupy Vermont is limited to the degree of Occupy Vermont members' participation. The same is true of Occupy Vancouver, Occupy CA, and so on.
And so, for the sake of clarity -
what was your question again?
Are Occupy factions in America made by Americans for American problems, or are they modeled from and concerned with foreign protests which have or had their own specific socio-political-economic situations and problems to resolve?
That is an interesting question.
Perhaps if I am feeling a bit less under the weather tomorrow I'll attend the Burlington GA, and see if there is consensus on this issue and if so in what way. That should see you started on your journey . . . . ?
I don't understand you question. Can you clarify?
To come back to my question. I know Occupy wants to be global, but I really feel like global solutions have to start with localized solutions. That comes from my study in the arts and computer programming. I really feel it starts on the local level. The solutions have to be in sync with the economic-socio-political reality where they are being administered. Solutions for New-York are not the same as those for Oakland, although they closer resemble the solutions for Egypt. I guess the local GA's take care of local solutions, but I feel OWS is wasting to much time on talks about problems elsewhere in the world. Once local solutions are proper in one Occupy, then it can try to link up with others and see how they can share in some ways to become more regional. Then those regions together share with other regions to become global. I really think the solutions have to be created from local to global (bottom to top) and not the other way around (top to bottom).
In a nutshell, what I'm saying is that I feel like OWS needs to define itself by New-Yorkers and for New-Yorkers before it tries to solve the problems in Egypt. If you don't know how you are defined locally, you can't possibly help globally.
I was being a smart ass.
Hence the term: think globally, act locally
I think what you are seeing is the result of these considerations, and possibly others:
there is global support for both the national and international Occupy movement from a diverse set of groups
the tear gas and the bullets used in Egypt are American made
those behind this website do not want the Occupy Movement to loose sight of either of the above.
.
The term is wrong. It should be: Make things work locally, then regionally, then, and only then, globally. Occupy hasn't even mastered the art of properly running a local GA, how can its protesters possibly know what Egyptians need or even want. And, does act locally really mean planning to send protesters half way across the world? It's good that they cancelled that bad idea.
Those behind this website want to make a comparison between the military in Egypt and the police in US. That's their prime objective. They hold on to Egypt because it represents the achieved state of their dream they can never truly aspire to achieve in America: a toppling of the government. They drool at the mouth around their little Egyptian crystal ball in the hope that if they rub it the right way it will represent their own future.
Why?
I've said "we are all connected" and string theory seems to bear that out.
If it is so, then what we do here may resonate both in space and in time. Yes, solutions need to work on a local level, but that does not mean we should not be informed by global events or our relationship to them.
Who can say who may be saved the trouble of reinventing the wheel?
Have you ever played a musical instrument? I'm a guitarist. When you pluck a string, it is always on the local level; at one precise spot. Then, it resonates by itself all over the string; globally.
I doesn't make sense to use an unproven scientific theory to decide how we should structure our political actions, but if you really want to do that, then you'll have to change the term to: pluck locally, and the string will automatically reverberate globally.
I will make the assumption that your main objection stems from the application of the principle in this case rather than the principle itself . . .?
My main objection is that it's an utter waste of time to turn to unproven scientific theories in an attempt to understand what would be a proper political theory for a global united world. You're working the Occupy way, there's a clear target ahead, but you're following some random thoughts and they bring you in the wrong direction.
Iv'e studied organization all my life: arts, computer programming, writing, etc... Organizing stuff is what I do. All the time. I can tell you that you always have to balance all levels: micro, meso, and macro. If the macro structure is off, the micro doesn't work. If the micro structures are off, the macro suffers from a lack of unity. The meso is the glue in between. Local, regional, and global constructions must all work in harmony.
Occupy is way too obsessed with the global element right now. It has created near to nothing locally, it only has borrowed ideas from other protests with other socio-economic-political realities. It has to figure out what it should do locally. That's the root. Uniting the world globally is extremely difficult. You can't do that top to bottom, it has to be done bottom to top. In art, you work top to bottom, but that's only because you have full control over all the aspects of the work. In the political world, you don't have this control. There are many countries and they are all independent. Civilization has been created bottom to top: first tribes, then villages, then cities, then small countries, then big countries, then multi-national organizations like NATO. Occupy doesn't have much to do with the Arab Spring protests at all. It's a whole different world. They have to find their own local voice before they can start singing with the global choir. They have to go back home and practice. They just started singing, and still sound like frogs.
The same can be said of us. Don't give up. Keep pressing your organizational views. I'm sure they have a practical application that we will sooner or latter make good use of.
If Occupy organizers and protesters spent time looking at the suggestions on these boards, suggestions by Americans for Americans, there might be some progress. However, they don't look at this forum. They're busy planning something for Egypt.
LoL!
Unless things have changed very recently, I can assure you they haven't begun making plans for Egypt here in Burlington, Vermont - although there have been expressions of solidarity . . .
This money has not been spent, the committee that passed the motion tried to get it overturned, why should we get bogged down only in provincial crap: it's not just one thing: it's part of a worldwide movement.
Did you read the content of my post? It says almost spent. As for the local/regional/global trichotomy, here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/has-occupy-become-a-movement-for-egyptians-instead/#comment-432196
There's a difference between getting bogged down in provincial crap, and not even touching said crap with the tip of your toes. Right now you're getting bogged down in global crap. It's all crap, it stinks the same.
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