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Forum Post: Gun Ban Issue, Opportunity for national debate, Bad Government, Constant War, NDAA, Citizen Rights

Posted 5 years ago on Dec. 23, 2012, 8:27 a.m. EST by Middleaged (5140)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Gun Ban Issue is Opportunity for national debate & Referendum on Bad Government, Constant War, NDAA, Citizen Rights.

The Drugging Of Our Children (Full Length 1 hour 43 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5PqrCePk

This issue should Glavanize all people into national debates about what the government is doing with NDAA, Global Wars, Drug Wars, Drone Strikers, Huge Defense Industry grown out of Federal Budgets, the Militarization of the USA, and ...whether common people are Represented in Washington DC.

There should be National Referendums, Nation Wide Voting on the Gun Ban, regional Debates on What Washington DC Agenda is, and if the Federal Government Represents the poor & middle class

A) People don't want war and don't want to violate the sovereignty of foreign countries. So why are we doing this?
B) NDAA has taken away constituational rights of US Citizens ever since the Patriot Act of 2001. So why are we doing this?
C) How can Drone Strikes in Pakistan be moral or ethical? And how can we lead the world in morality or by example by being the most agressive, military nation on earth who doesn't mind killing women & kids.
D) How can we as US Citizens change the Influence of Money on Federal Budgets, Corporate Welfare, and unlimited support of corporations.
E) If there is no other nation strong enough to influence the aggressive foreign policy and global war policy of the US Government, and we do not get to vote on what Congress Does, then how can anyone without millions of dollars Lobby Washington DC. Corporations make money off of Weapons and War, they have a conflict of Interest...
F) If you give up your guns, and give up the right to own semi-automatic rifles, then how can your responsible stewardship of the US Government - stop the wars, stop the drone strikes, stop the covert activities, stop transfer of federal tax dollars to the Defense Industry, stop the corporate welfare,... or even get access to get legislation to the floor of the US Congress. Many people want to be responsible, to act with Citizenship, to change laws, and to provide direction to government, but we don't really get taught by Washington. We get asked to follow a vague, opaque, plan that asks us to give up more rights. But you still don't get to vote on plans in Congress. You don't even get the background and details of laws before they get voted on.
G) Most of the Laws passed in Congress are written by Lobbyist with a pressing Conflict of Interest. This means people are paid to write laws for congress by people that may have a financial interest. So how can you be sure your US Rights are protected when laws are written by high paid lobbyist who are just trying to make a buck?
H) Remember Watergate and the Church Committe investigation of the CIA and the bribery of the US Media. Can you depend on the US Media to protect your best Intersts? If you can't vote on sending US Kids to war, or whether or not to bomb and send drone strikes on a Sovereign nation, or whether 1st Amendment Rights are taken away in NDAA, or if you have the right to a lawyer, a trial, a free media, a Freedom of Information Act, an Anti-Trust Act, or a Decent Wage... then ...How can you show Citizenship and change your government? How can you stop the wars?

And you want to say it is logical to ban guns. Well lets discuss this point for argument sake. We currently have many bans in the USA that don't work.

A) Drug War and Marijuana Ban has lead to Violent Drug Gang Violence at least in South America, Central America, Mexico, Thialand, Myanmar, Laos, and Afghanistan.
B) Drug War has lead to near chaos in Mexico, Columbia, and Afghanistan as to their governments.
C) CIA has been caught in trouble with running drugs.
D) Drugs are a commodity in the US and in US Prisons leading to many young men into a life of crime due to the economic power and status it brings. What is it, 25% of prisoners are convicted for non-violent drug crimes only to have their lives changed forever and to become dependent on others for shelter & livelihood.
E) Drug Ban has aided in the Creation of a prison industry that is a drag on the economy, a drag on taxpayers, ...Prison does not add value to society.
F) Ban on Prostitution, has not ended prostitution.
G) Ban on gambling... has become legal, but never could eliminate gambling.
H) Ban on Alcohol... Never ending drinking or making moonshine. In fact it is the best case example of how bans do not work. Ban increses violence of gangs. Ban made drinking alcohol more likely to poison you. Ban made certain US Families Rich.
I) Ban on drugs has resulted in the same things that happened in Prohibition of Alcohol.
J) Ban on Drugs seems to benefit other industry lobby groups.
K) Ban on terrorism has lead to a security industry to protect against terrorism, and has lead to an increase in resentment of US Troops who are defacto occupying foreign lands, air, and seas, has lead to therefore a creation of more terrorist as said by former CIA Agents.
L) Ban on Hand Guns or Semi-Automatic Rifles or even all guns ... will prove very difficult with open borders and human history of serving the economic demand whatever it is.

The many issue here can be looking at in many different ways. You can look for principles, or you can look at the effect of having guns available, or you can look at legal and illegal drug use and mental illness, ...How about we expand the Discussion, or just ask How can we have a National Referendum and if not Why can't we ever have national referendum votes in this democracy today (have we already lost this right?)

http://www.truthistreason.net/operation-mockingbird-government-control-of-mainstream-media (author has a book he is selling) (Operation Mockingbird)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x144008 (Operation Mockingbird)

http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.php (Operation Mockingbird)



Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Video makes the point that the incentives in Banking can make anyone bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBmJay_qdNc&NR=1&feature=endscreen (Dishonesty - RSA Animate)

But ...Perhaps we NOW have a government that has incentives for all Congressmen to be Bad/Dishonest what with soft money, PACs, Corporate Contributions, Lobby money allowed from Foreign Agents as well as anyone else

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 5 years ago

And they lose their role in government if they don't directly answer questions.

No spin no lies. Direct!

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Thanks. Merry Christmas. Peace be with you. It is like we wait all our lives for politicians to tell us something or finally teach us. Barney Franks, Dennis Kuchinich, Larry Sanders, and even Ron Paul have tried to teach. But I don't think most of them represent the people.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Referendum Should Look at the Success of the Decison Making Process in Congress.

1) Special Forces went to Vietnam in 1959. The War ended 16 years later in 1975, Between 1965 and 1975, the United States spent $111 billion on the war ($686 billion in FY2008 dollars).[309], some 1.5 million troops saw combat in Vietnam.[310], By war's end, 58,220 American soldiers had been killed,[A 2] more than 150,000 had been wounded, and at least 21,000 had been permanently disabled.[312]

2) Prohibition of Alcohol: Rather than reducing crime, Prohibition had transformed the cities into battlegrounds between opposing bootlegging gangs. In a study of over 30 major U.S cities during the prohibition years of 1920 and 1921, the number of crimes increased by 24%. Additionally, theft and burglaries increased by 9%, homicide by 12.7%, assaults and battery rose by 13%, drug addiction by 44.6% and police department costs rose by 11.4%.

3) Global War on Terror: According to Watson Institute for International studies we are estimated to have spent at least $2.5 Trillion up to the end of 2012. Were the Taxpayers told that the War on Terror would be so expensive? Does anyone think it is worth it to go forward? If we had the Moral High Ground in going to war, does it look like war has damaged our soldiers morals, put them in situations where they did immoral things? Are we still on the Moral High Ground?

4) War on Drugs: a) Permanent under class of people punished for drug charges (see wikipedia) b) A 2008 study by Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would save taxpayers $76.8 billion a year in the United States (see link) c) Both CIA & US Navy have been caught smuggling drugs d) RAND Study funded under Bill Clinton found Drug Treatment is 23 TIMES more efficient than law enforment & interdiction executed in the War on Drugs e) Richard Davenport-Hines, in his book The Pursuit of Oblivion,[137] found War on Drugs makes profit go up and similar finding that RAND study made that even the use of the entire US Military could not stop the drug trade and only catches 10-15%. f) 85% of high school seniors find marijuana "easy to obtain." g) We all know the violence in Mexico.

Still think Congress should make the decisions (5% approval rating)


[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Is this Video with Jeremy Scahill, Blackwater: The Most Powerful Mercenary Army Revevant to the debate on the Gun Ban?? Having Private Armies in America, Private Security Companies with Guns in America?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak0fBwYjCD8 (he is selling a book, 10 minute version, people shot in the back- can you stop the war and the use of deadly force in US Military Actions?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JxGSY2YC14 (Full Speach)

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 years ago

"This sacred text explains why the US can't kick the gun habit", by Jonathan Freedland :

Thanx for a very good and thought provoking post & my best wishes to you and yours 'Ma' for peace and contentment, this xmas, yule, new year and beyond.

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Thanks, Shadz. Merry Christmas & Happy Yule. Let's end Gun Violence and End the Aggressive US Foregin policy. Peace on Earth is a dream worth examining.

Glancing at your link. Hope I am not so much like partisans in America that say I'll do this if you do that first. Hope I don't make a deal to give up a principal for progress that turns out to be a bad decision. I don't think guns are important to my everyday life. I don't think my family even fired a shot in WWII for the USA except for my Grandmother's brother. So my family traditions of guns is more like guns 'Lite'.

We can live without guns. But would feel much better if federal government, congress, didn't have Conflicts of Interst. Didn't take gifts and Lobby Money. Didn't control the national debates. Didn't dumb us down with every speach that could be a teaching moment. And didn't ignore the loss of middle class savings, retirement, wages, and the high cost of medical care, and tuition of all kinds.

You know I have a little background in Business. I certainly have listened to business needs and policies. I am neutral on business. I know that small business is the 'heart' of the US Economy. The Core. Personally I would make taxes simpler for businesses, so they wouldn't have to pay so much to have taxes prepared.

We send armies around the world, but don't have to see them here in the USA. Our police will surely try to be fair to us. Our police will surely not enforce illegal orders against US Citizens. This is why controling the information, the message, is so important for our Leaders. Just brainstorming a little here.

But as we know sometimes Power does something fraudulent that takes away the rights of a US Citizen. Our system doesn't really have a grip on this. Our court system is too expensive for common man to be able to use for redress. Not only does this cost money, but also time, loss of employment, loss of wages, loss of home, loss of reputation, loss of business, so many losses.... so it is like we need:

A) Social Court System/Simplified Civil Court System
B) Caps on Tuition to prevent further inflation (and private colleges get government money too, so they should have caps as well).
C) Caps on Mid Tier Medical Care Cost, Control on expansion of hostpitals, cost control on medical equipment purchases if they increase patient costs.
D) Control over medical drug costs.
E) Nationalized Media for Political campaigns (limited time per station per month)
F) No Lobbying Congress, No Gifts for Congress, Limit $1 Dollar only from US Citizens per year per campaign.
G) End the War on Drugs.
H) End Foreign Wars.
I) No More Operation Gladios.
J) Bring Troops back from Japan, South Korea, Germany.

Still reading your link. Funny thing about the constitution. Lawyers say it never gave us citizens rights. They claim we were given rights not by the bill of rights or the constitution. They claim we have another amendment that incorporated citizens into our governments and that gave us rights. Doesn't sound sacred. Nothing is sacred to a Lawyer or politician.

Which is the best reason to keep guns, and keep gun rights... Well, behind my reason of citizen responsiblity to put politicians back on their heels!!

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 5 years ago

"Nothing is sacred to a Lawyer or politician." ~{:-) Nice & thanx for another very thoughtful and thought provoking reply. My best wishes to you & yours 'Ma' and :

amor vincit omnia ...

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

You might like this song as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hMNI6T--DY Lyrics are good.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Somewhere over the Rainbow - Israel "IZ" Kamakawiwoʻole

'Nuff Said.


[-] -1 points by Theeighthpieceuv8 (-32) from Seven Sisters, Wales 5 years ago

Great Britain has been our corporate b*tch for almost a century now, precisely because they are powerless.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Somebody in OWS has the contacts and knows how to get the many diverse groups to demand a referendum. So what galvanizes all groups???

Could be Austerity, Federal Budget Cuts, Lower Wages Nationally while funding Drone Strikes, Foreign Wars, Armies, Navies, and Air bases overseas, Rich Defense Contracts, Largest Defense Spending in History, Bailouts for Big Banks, Corporate Welfare, Wall Street Financial Schemes Unpunished, and Executive Compensation & All Time High Profits - While US Wages are Cut & Jobs are Cut**

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-21/75-economic-numbers-2012-are-almost-too-crazy-believe (Take a big long look at this Link and pass it on to all your contacts, Ask why we can never have Referendums in the USA, Ask whatever happened to the League of Women Voters in the USA when they set Presidential Debate Rules at one time in history)

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

After see this video it is even more clear the Government operates on Rhetoric and off of some agenda set by Interest Groups. The Drugging Of Our Children (Full Length 1 hour 43 minutes) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26e5PqrCePk (Gary Null)

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 5 years ago

Arturo Posted a link that lead me down a new path. It is Free, Voluntary, Socialized Mental Disease Testing and Evaluation & Treatment.


Look we live in a capitalist society. People have to pay for medical expenses and medical testing. And now you complain that mentally ill people are running butt wild, creating horrific massacers. Rember under Ronald Reagan people were kicked out of mental institutions. And later in the 1990 one a Michigan's Conservative Governors did the same thing at the state level. Cut the budget put sick people on the Street - what we don't know why people commit mass murder #@%#


Isn't Socialized Medicine in the specialized area of Psychiatry and Psychiatric testing the real thing being called for here?

I'm just saying. Nothing is Sacred to Lawyers & Politicians, so if you are looking to them for solutions .... well you might end up with a higher tax or some kind of bill increase.