Forum Post: Green power for Zuccotti Park: MIT students working on source of power that mayor can't steal
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 29, 2011, 9:55 a.m. EST by therising
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
OK green power aficionados.... Time to rise and shine. The heroes in Zuccotti Park had power but Mayor Bloomberg stole it. The brave men and women occupying Zuccotti Park (and parks across the nation) need power that does not have any combustible fuel. That way the mayor can't have an excuse to take the power source. Need to run medical / food tent, computers and power some sort of heat source that can act as a campfire to ward off frostbite.
(Also please check this out http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-know-how-the-1-were-smugly-expecting-the-cold-/ )
.............. ARod1993 1 points 4 hours ago
MIT freshman, studying electrical engineering and computer science. I don't know that much, but I can think of a few ideas. First of all, a bicycle generator is probably not the best idea for doing something like this because it's not particularly practical. As Nate suggested, it would be a great idea to look into solar battery chargers and alternating banks of car batteries to see if that would provide enough power for most of what you need.
If that doesn't work out, you might try buying or building a Stirling engine to generate power. It's different from an internal combustion engine in that it doesn't require anything to be burned inside of it; it merely requires a temperature gradient across it. They sell small novelty ones for a couple of hundred dollars apiece that you stick on top of coffee cups to spin little propellers. I'm not sure how much it would cost to get a larger one that you could run off a garbage can fire or makeshift oven, but a few of the latter could give you a great deal of power with no extra emissions.
You can find out more about them here: http://www.stirlingengine.com/faq
I'm surprised you can't recruit a cadre of serious cyclists to power the generators. They(/we) need to keep riding through the winter, with limited safe opportunities due to weather and dark. It is certain that cyclists are of the 99%, in view of the gasoline-centric nature of rich-man-culture, and the current Republican push in the Senate to squeeze Open Streets funding out of the Transportation bill.
If they had bicycle powered generators down at Occupy DC I would be happy to volunteer some regular hours to keep them powered.
I LOVE this idea. Brilliant in its simplicity and a win win in soany ways. A great visual too, ten bikes hooked up to generators, all lined up, cyclists taking shifts, doing their winter training at Zuccotti Park. Can you please help spread the word among the cycling community? If you could encourage others to email friends who might participate, bicycling websites / magazines etc that would be a huge help. If you ask each of your friends to ask ten more we could spread the word quickly.
The cross-link to the biking community is a great idea.
It was efschumacher's idea. brilliant
Thanks. Please help spread the word. Here's new post on the bike power system http://occupywallst.org/forum/call-to-action-please-help-recruit-serious-cyclist/
One seed planted. Lets see if it bears fruit down in MacPherson Square (K Street). I can supply a bike, a turbo and an 'engine'. Just need a hookup to a generator.
I love the way you think. Thank you for your contribution. Seriously man. This is fantastic idea. Hope you don't mind I reposted here to get word out http://occupywallst.org/forum/call-to-action-please-help-recruit-serious-cyclist/
I've posted on the Mid-Atlantic Biking list. I'll add posts to Bike Forums, PelotonEast and the UK TimeTrialling Forum. Should help stimulate some useful wattage.
Should be able to get Rollapalooza hooked into this as well. They run roller racing derbys. If they can come along to an Occupy near you, they can hook up and generate some electricity, generate some heat for the participants, and generate some competitive interest and entertainment for everybody around.
Spread the idea as good and wide as possible, I certainly have no right to patent it. Ideas are like manure: spread them wide and they create powerful growth. Pile them up in a corner and they just stink.
So damn cool. Can't wait to see this :)
Hey all I've done so far is send the messages. We have to cross our fingers to wait for someone to turn up with the hardware.
Rollapaluza operates in the UK. I've dinged them to see if they can do something for the Occupy London movement. Asked if they know of a similar operation in the US. Here's their website to give an indication of things they do (that can be adapted to power generation and ... how can one say .. 'spiritual motivation' needs.) http://www.rollapaluza.com/.
Excellent. Thanks so much. Hope this can fall into place. So cool in so many ways. :)
You're awesome man!!!!!! I love it :). Totally totally cool.
Once it gets cold, pedalling a generator is going to beat jumping up and down or huddling and shivering.
Hugs? Can anyone there do the Care Bear Stare?
lol : )
Please spread the word
mike check!
The Slave Raid Working Group has a direct action plan to ensure that OWS has power for the laptops of the media center over the winter,
We'll be dressing in black armor and riding through the financial district taking captives on Monday. If there's time left, we'll put the women and children to the sword, burn the huts and sow Wall Street with salt.
Able bodied traders and corporate lawyers will be brought back to Zuccotti Park chained neck to neck and put to work pushing a giant wooden capstan around in a circle in order to generate green power.
We're hoping to get a lot of participation. There's a place for everyone depending on your level of arrestability and your tolerance for blood, fire, dogs devouring the dead, etc.
Meet at the red cube! We ride at dawn!
Sounds like the beginning of the Conan movie from the 80s.
That's where I got it.
You know how the Conan movie from the 80s ended?
I disremember.
BEAUTIFUL!! Awesome!!!! It's happening!!! Someone was way ahead of us :) See video about half way down (video has to do with bikes rather than vets) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2011/11/02/veterans-join-occupy-wall-street_n_1071751.html
There is already power in Zuccotti Park.
There are electrical lines running underneath the entire park.
The lights in locations around the floor of the park are powered by AC.
Unscrew and remove a light cannister and tap into the AC power.
♠ Bloomberg purged generators ♦ from centers of assembled protestors, ♥ if one questions removing power, ♣ think insisted on frozen flowers.
Green power sources are well known fool, you simply need to implement them.
Why would you call me a fool?
I apologize some little nazi asshat has gotten me all wound up.
Ahhh. Happens to me all the time. No worries.
Why is a bicycle generator charging deep cycle batteries not practical? It sounds incredibly practical to me.
That said, the point of taking over the park quickly seems to be becoming taking over the park. Is the symbol becoming the goal? Wouldn't all the energy, money, etc put into figuring out how to camp out in a park in the middle of nyc in the winter be better spent on something more constructive?
Please help spread the word on this GENIUS IDEA from efschumacher. http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-know-how-the-1-were-smugly-expecting-the-cold-/
This stirling engine seems pretty decent. Looks like some more research should be done on that technology as it could help eliminate the reliance upon oil and thus being a slave to the establishment which controls it.
Hope this bears fruit!
Occupy Science Fair?
Do you guys piss a lot? The park appears to be full of a steady stream of people that must need to take leak..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11468145
http://www.greenlaunches.com/other-stuff/nomix-the-urineseparating-toilet-helps-generating-electricity-and-producing-fertilizers.php
I'm just waiting for these MIT students to unveil their new cold fusion reactor at Liberty Plaza. Go MIT!!
Is open flame allowed? I have an idea that is not exactly green.
Thanks! There's another dollar for Occupy Wall Street. Trolldom has been monetized. This is fun :) http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-monetized-trolldom-for-the-benefit-of-the-/#comment-223231 . Care to donate? Just visit homepage at www.occupywallst.org .
Huh? How was this a troll post? I am not an OWSer, but I like the ingenuity idea.
Narrow minded idiots on here..
I'll say this again because apparently the guy you quoted here was the only one who listened the first time: Barring gasoline or propane fuels, the only rational solution is some combination of solar generators and 12V deep-cycle batteries. A Stirling engine requires an open flame, and if Bloomberg is willing to cite safety and fire hazards to forbid liquid fuels he certainly won't let you build actual fires. Don't give Brookfield Properties an excuse to evict you – no flames! Wind power is only practical on a huge scale, and in unobstructed areas with high winds - maybe it would work in Chicago, but not in downtown NYC. Any solution involving Faraday's Law of Induction and "people power", whether it be hand cranks or stationary bicycle generators, is necessarily also going to involve electrical storage, and that very probably means 12V batteries. The bike idea is cute, and would probably attract a television crew or two (I've already trademarked "People's Bike"), but using solar generators or batteries charged off-site would be far, far more efficient. Start here:
http://www.batteryjunction.com/coleman-58050.html
Get a kit like that at a big box chain hardware store if you can find one, and hook it up to a 12v battery. Spend a little extra on deep-cycle batteries over a typical car starter battery, because the latter fail quickly if you discharge them continuously and below 30% capacity. You may also want to look into "powerpack" systems with built-in adapters like this:
http://www.provantage.com/battery-biz-852-1950-07~7XNTX00T.htm
Avoid using the 110V outlets on these if possible - you won't get wall outlet-strength voltage out of a 12V battery for more than a few hours, if that. If I were hacking something together it would just be copper wire strung from a cheap deep-cycle battery directly into the chopped off cigarette lighter power jack of 12V heating devices, but I guarantee you that if gasoline is a safety hazard, bare wires of any sort are equally likely to burn all of Manhattan to the ground. Powerpacks have cigarette lighter 12V jacks built in, and they have the added bonus of being designed to be charged from a typical house electrical outlet - when you discover it takes most of a week for the solar kit to charge a battery in the dead of an NYC winter, the only obvious solution will be having volunteers take powerpacks home to charge overnight.
However they get charged, the batteries are going to be most efficient powering 12V devices; note also that USB is a 5V bus and cigarette lighter-to-USB converters can cost under $5. If you can get assurances (in writing, natch) that Bloomberg's cronies will allow propane camping equipment I would have a strong preference for that solution to the heating problem, but simply because it's easy, obvious, and legal in every other campground scenario probably just means it would pose a dire threat to Wall Street (because you'd still be there!) That means wimpy 12V car heaters and 12V blankets heating a few key tents ($30 per device is probably overpaying for these), and if Brookfield gets serious about the tent ban you're screwed until a few courageous protesters agree to strip to their skivvies and freeze to death on Brookfield's property. Don't use candles or flame of any kind for light or heat because the NYPD has clearly been instructed to treat any flame as an act of war; use efficient 12V LED lights in key places and rely mostly on LED flashlights supplemented by the lights build into the powerpacks. Keeping people fed will be a challenge, but from what I've read the kitchen staff likes those - if the propane stoves every other camper in New York state is using are strangely illegal in the city you can still find portable 300 degree 12V stoves built to resemble lunch boxes, and probably many others. Most basic amenities you'd want in your house can be met by 12V devices designed for automobile use, so you aren't all doomed to starvation and frostbite. With all these logistical issues and a few hundred thou in the CU, though, I might be asking around to see if any supporters felt like putting an actual roof over a few thousand heads until the weather breaks and we can really get this class war started.
Stay warm out there, protesters! The only Americans who oppose you have hearts as cold as the winter you're facing!
Cool. Thank you!!!!!!!!
What do you mean bicycle generators wont work. They keep you warm and make power at the same time. Also they fight our nations obesity problem. Win, win, win. Haha.
There is already power in Zuccotti Park.
There are electrical lines running underneath the entire park.
The lights in locations around the floor of the park are powered by AC.
Unscrew and remove a light cannister and tap into the AC power.
Interesting
Look, I can create a wind generator sensitive enough to work in as little as 2 - 5 mph winds... my issue.... If I do this, I cannot afford a patent, I would like to release it as a free open source project..... but I fear theft... I dont want corps to steal the design, patent it, and then screw the people! I will have to discuss it with the designer.... Any one know hot to release a product free for use?
If it's truly IP, that is unique, and yours. I can help you file a provisional patent. You can do that for under 400$. If it can pass patent challenge without significant litigation, it's just under 10k. If you really want to open source it then I can help with that as soon as the baseline costs are recovered.
We have already spent 10K on a patent search. If you point me in the right direction I can read legal jargon. How much can I file a patent for?
Um. Wow. You got some bad advice if you did patent search prior to provisional patent. You can file a pro patent online for 1-200$. Google search it. That process takes 2 years. Especially if it's a questionable subject in terms of IP. Let the uspto do that for you. Good news, if you file your pro patent and receive acceptance you are covered from then on out if someone steals it.
IP - international patent?
Ip - intellectual property.
Oh... for sure... I dont think anyone can contest it. Perhaps Im wrong. When we did the patent search nothing came up.
Siemens owns wind power, and they are an IP factory. May have the patent in Europe.....but groovy for you if you can get it done.
I assure they have not thought of this LOL... This thing has no moving - mechanical parts HAHAH!
Epic! Good luck.
Are you a patent lawyer?
No, I have a couple patents though.
Let's power the movement
Heh i have been working on a prototype hydroelectric plant that can be scaled down to fit in the bed of a pickup. It would be perfect for this. Unfortunately, i am still trying to get the idea through bureaucracy and similar BS.
The sad part is i use generators all the time in construction where i live. Sometimes the electric company doesnt make it out in time to put up a temp meter so we have to use generators for a few days. Its more likely your car will blow up than a generator.
The Park has parking right? What if some engineering folks could rig it up so you could have the car run as a generator. Like run jumper cables off the battery. It would probably take a few cars but it would be a temp solution.
Michael Moore is a film maker - he is also now active in #OWS - film makers rent / own trailers to serve "film crews" on location / trailers vary from cable to dressing rooms / trailers also have showers / generators / telecommunications vans / etc... Ask MM to park some of his friends film trailers next to Zuccotti Park - you're wired - problem solved! peace AtomicZ...
Michael Moore won't do that.
Those movie trailers cost tens of thousands of dollars per week depending on the amenities they provide.
Michael Moore is notoriously cheap with his own money. He won't pull money like that out of his own pocket to help OWS.
The police also will not allow a trailer to be parked next to Liberty Park.
Shortcuts people ... there is always a way to anything once you get past the doubt and confusion - rent a truck - run the generator from the truck - park it for a while and rent another truck - switch the generators to the other truck - shell game the the game - come-on your New Yorkers for Christ sake !!! get the Russian [ family's ] help ya know? make this happen!!! MM could use the publicity ? Out do him!!! THINK!!! - peace AtomicZ...
Yes...thinking outside the box. As the saying goes...'where there is a will there is a way'. NEVER GIVE UP!
agreed - never ever ever ! ! ! peace AtomicZ
yes! Michael Moore has millions and he supports the OWS (gone on record too). He'll give us what we need! Anybody got any way to contact him?
thank you this is the funniest thing i have ever read on this board.
hope he doesn't mind spreading the wealth around, being a 1%er and all.
The guy lives and breathes gorilla street wars [ any kind of help given to the #OWS in Zuccotti Park now ] = publicity ! ! ! peace AtomicZ...
Michael Moore is a fat ass pig. I hate fat people.
Now... now... eye understand & it's been a very trying day for all of us so ... perhaps it time you let daddy play with the puter ... OK ... that's a good little solder ... peace AtomicZ... [ you want another T W I N K Y ? ]
Let's help the heroes occupying parks across the nation.
Stirling power isn't a workable option. You guys really need some engineers.
What about this http://occupywallst.org/forum/genius-idea-from-efschumacher-heres-how-you-can-wi/
Do you know mechanism that could make it work?
You can buy off the shelf bike generators. They just won't produce enough power to be meaningful. Youre talking an army of bicycles to generate enough power to operate a tent village.
Yes. An army.
It really depends on how they're making food; you can get DIY instructions on how to build a little Sitrling engine for free here: http://www.midnightkite.com/index.aspx?URL=Stirling You are right in that it'll only work if there are open flames already around for cooking or other things, and you would probably be best setting it up using rotating banks of NiMH or Li-ion batteries. You could try solar as well; most likely through buying solar panels. The bicycle generator won't be anywhere near enough on its own, but a large group of them would have a shot.
They need power to make food. Two Army core of engineers disaster folks could sort this. Or a seasoned NOC manager. They have plenty of money, just not much know how. Spend some of the cash and hire smart people. Asking for MIT freshmen is just insulting on sooo many levels.
Oh, OK. I thought that they were making some of the food using garbage can fires until everything else got sorted out, but you're right that a Stirling engine is no good without a heat source. How exactly would you suggest getting zero-emissions power, then? I'm not questioning or attacking you, I'm just curious to see how it's done so I can learn from their solution.
Well, first things first. Treat it like a disaster. Sort power first, emissions later. You have to phase in a solution if you want to be online in a hurry. Could do the whole thing though for about 10-15k, in 48 hours.
Does that assume they're allowed to use some form of generator or plug into the grid to get started? Now I'm really curious; what exactly would your solution entail?
They would be allowed to run a fossil fuel power system were it up to code. That's how Noc managers get back online when grids fail. You rent these things from DR companies. They have the know how to install to code, a temp metering service, and run proper cabling and PDU's. They would also have the generator in an enclosed box or trailer that is both locked, and fire walled from fuel supply. With a permit, this could be online in a day. You cannot do what they were doing (pool of consumer grade GASOLINE generators sitting next to Gas, with consumer grade extension cords). That actually is a recipe for a disaster. You would then evaluate the meter to understand consumption over the hours to fisher out peak, normal, and surge demands. Those are critical to designing a power system. They can conserve power by switching to DC appliances, or if they want to be really green, move inverters and ac power supplies into a tent (the energy they waste in converting the power from dc/ac or vice versa is heat). But DC appliances would still be more efficient. Once known, the power reqs, begin acquiring proper renewable power components. Cannot do the latter without the fore, or they are just throwing money away (will have to change inverter/charge controller if they buy the wrong ones). There is a shade spot on N/w side of park, and sun on N/e. Makes sense to put hardware in shade, panels in sun. In cloudy NYC weather, they are only going to get about 35-45% efficiency, so they need serious panels. I would suggest fabricating 2 trailers with panels on motorized sun trackers linked to UPS array, with an alarmed charge controller so they know when they are at risk of overload. I'm not an occupier though, so they'd have to pay a couple of welders, and at least one engineer, and two electricians to pull it all together.
The welders and electricians are no problem. We're at OWS and we'll do it for free.
Engineers, I don't know about.
The electricians should have told them it wasn't to code.
That would imply that they were organized enough to identify the electricians and invite them back there to check it out. They aren't and they didn't.
Wow. What can I say, this movement needs leadership. Maybe not a leader, but at least a leadership team. I've been making fun of the movement since the start, Then I got pissed off, now I'm just sad for the Sheeple. Sorry ows. Another organization has failed you.
You're not the only one frustrated with the chaos. Some days when I'm down there, I want to start flipping people out of sleeping bags like a pissed off drill instructor.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, OK. I was under the impression that their generators were taken away due to emissions problems, not safety.
No, the fire Marshall took them, not EPA. They have a ton of money, I don't know where they are spending it, but for 150k you could build quite a serious infrastructure. Think of a Mash unit. Or better yet, food festivals. How do you think vendors feed 40000 people at music fests in the middle of nowhere. If there were less stoners and more problem solvers, this would be sorted. I have no confidence these yucks will survive the winter, and the first frostbite victims or hypothermia deaths, will give adequate reason to shut the whole thing down. This movement sincerely needs a leadership team.
For 150K it would be possible to keep this whole thing going almost ad infinitum... if I weren't in Cambridge I'd go down to the GA and present your ideas to them.
Smart people like you and I have jobs, or go to school to get a meaningful degree. They asked for freshmen, because you and I know what the starting pay is for a grad.....and something tells me if you survive the next 2.5 years of classes, you'll be ready to get a job, and relax a bit.
They have more than double that raised. And with the union alliance, nobody from ibew has offered a power solution. That part is the most embarrassing. To pull this off, you'd have to use union electricians and welders. Bush League.
They haven't gone to the unions because the whole OWS operation is a massive ball of chaos. I've spent at least 200 hours down there and I've seen it in operation.
And why hasn't OWS gone to IBEW for help, personnel, etc? Seriously, people like you and I need to start speaking at the GAs and trying to push for more productive policies.
Im having a problem logging onto Facebook. Seems odd that Facebook was used as a crucial tool in the middle east to organize people to stand up for their rights and overthrow their
dictators. Funny how now that protestors are gathering at Wall Street and around the world to demand Justice for plummitting the world economy into chaos that many people are having
trouble logging on to facebook...this same senario happened in Iran when people starting organizing against their government. Seems to me that Facebook has been taken over by the.01% to
prevent the 99% from organizing. The 99% must organize before Occupy Wall street becomes a faded memory... organize your groups around the world...elect leaders to stand together
world wide. DO NOT GIVE IN!!!... DO NOT GIVE UP!! It is time to take our countries back from the greedy and corrupt. For those of you who still have access to Facebook it is your
duty to spread the word.
Please post this on your facebook profile and forward this email.
We_Are_The_99_Percent@planet.com
There are numerous solar-powered generators on Amazon right now, starting from around $89 and into the thousands...
Zuccotti Park gets about fifteen minutes of direct sunlight per day.
We neee to outwit mayor on this one
Calling all you engineers out there...
I found a self contained unit that can be charged from the grid or solar. It looks durable and should meet your needs. It is called the sherpa 120 power pack. It can be found online and can be purchased with or without solar panel.
Cool :)
Easy. Dig a pit and put a bunch of pigs in the pit, feed them. collect the methane that they produce and you can have your heat source. Perhaps you can even have a cage so you can set up gladiator type entertainment.
Sounds sloppy
Green schmeen. You're going to need a car battery brigade. Bring in the 12 volt batteries, use them for light and heat, and pass off the spent ones for offsite recharging. You need to get on this now. The only way you are going to get enough heat is in this fashion. I have camped in -10 weather and you will be amazed how much heat can be generated by a car battery.
Also, for immediate warming, use large hot water bottles. Like the batteries, these can be filled with hot water offsite and delivered to the occupiers. Buy these at: http://www.amazon.com/Goodhealth-Fautless-Premium-Bottle-Capacity/dp/B00005V9CC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320041935&sr=8-3
Or, just use gallon milk jugs filled with hot water and, again, exchange for new hot water jugs when the water becomes tepid.
http://www.miniscience.com/projects/airbattery/
the stirling is convoluted fantasy fix. some water + buckets + metal = battery
you guys have salt water right there! and it's free. why aren't you guys just making batteries? they teach that in elementary school. you tell'n me NY doesn't have some scrap deposing metals laying around?
Not sure how that works. If you're so inclined though, please be sure to spread the word on this brilliant idea by eschumacher http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/you-know-how-the-1-were-smugly-expecting-the-cold-/
Please, the mayor didn't "steal" power. Several cans of gasoline IS a a safety hazard. Especially being a stone's throw from World Trade - don't forget the context of OWS in a city where 9-11 is still fresh. Besides… gas? I'm so excited to hear the bike-powered generators are on their way from Boston! "Be the change you want to see." :)
Genius idea from efschumacher http://occupywallst.org/forum/genius-idea-from-efschumacher-heres-how-you-can-wi/
Bike power isn't going to cut it. Biking is too hard. Too many victims in the crowd. I'm thinking magic unicorn power may be their only hope ;)
I'm the only person (it seems) advocating de-camping for the winter. Unless the mission is to "occupy Zuccotti Park," why not? You don't have to compromise street action, just cut out the "camping overnight" part. Maybe renting space for the library and as a "base" for people to check in. Think creatively. Work smarter not harder. :)
Ows is a collective of neither smart, nor hard workers. You can't be neither in this country. I'm sticking with the pray for unicorns approach.
Right now all I've seen is far from working smart…. My vote is with the inevitable counter-OWS group sure to rise in reaction to what is becoming, to me, the "do-nothing" party.
Sign me up!