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Forum Post: Gold Standard

Posted 3 years ago on Oct. 4, 2011, 6:16 p.m. EST by Marx101 (0)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The problem we are in now started with FDR taking us off the gold standard. Now all the money in this country is created by banks as "DEBT." There is no gold standard - your money is worthless. We need to go back to the gold standard. Less speculation, and people making MONEY off MONEY.

122 Comments

122 Comments


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[-] 3 points by RG32 (81) 3 years ago

Gold and silver are real money. Fed reserve notes = debt. Use your paper, ponzi currency to buy gold and silver while you still can!

[-] 2 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

no, gold and silver are solid things being used to con scam you into a simple repeat of history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 3 years ago

Six thousand years of history and almost every human society in existence placed value on those metals. To assume that a cloth currency has more stable value than those metals simply because one government declares it to have so is myopic.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

and 100 years ago the world economy became larger than any ability to link it to any kind of physical substance. There is not enough gold or silver in the world to represent the money. thus there is no possible way to go back. Thus this argument is a stupid argument which corporate oligarchy programmed you with because its exactly how they prevent a real meaningful discussion about how to run an ethical money system. You fight for something impossible, everyone laughs behind your back, the system stays the same.

Good job, your actually fighting as a dupe for corporate oligarchy.

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 3 years ago

No such thing happened. Its just that the purchasing power of an individual weight of the material would increase. Of course new materials are being added to the pool (palladium was first minted as coins by the USSR last century) and copper has been used for thousands of years as well.

When people talk about the "Gold Standard" they are actually referring to a commodity currency which can be and often is a mixed metals system. Nickle, copper, silver, gold, tungsten, platinum, rhodium, palladium, titanium, all make excellent stores of value as a commodity currency.

Manipulation of currency is much harder as a commodity currency and as such corproate welfare would be next to impossible without an increase in taxation. This makes such maneuvers very public, very visible, and very much fought against.

I am afraid it is much closer to the truth to say that defending a fiat currency which aids in monetary expansion performed by large banks and their business allies is the action of a dupe for corporate oligarchy.

Please read Bohm-Bawerk's Capital and Interest.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

its bizzare how people can have such cognitive dissonance. the gold standard is impossible, fighting for it proves ignorance.

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 3 years ago

If ad hominem attacks are all you have left I will take that as a concession to my position.

[-] 1 points by rustyfox13 (1) 3 years ago

we need to base our currency on creek rocks (rounded only) so we all will be wealthy and no one would have to work or be a productive citrizen, and we could all go to college forever without being a slave to ridiculous laws or responsibilities.

[-] 1 points by owsne1 (1) 3 years ago

Check out this piece in Forbes about OWS and the gold standard versus the political class. I like the point, that is made, that these events from all over are all occurring at around the same time... revolution is coming????? In some way, clearly!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2011/10/10/occupy-wall-street-contempt-of-political-class/

[-] 1 points by frankbarker (7) 3 years ago

First off I am an Iraq war veteran, I have a masters degree in education and I am having trouble finding reasonable employment. I am the 99% however I want to share with you some information that will blow your mind and show you how to actually protect yourself from the recession and even profit from it.

THIS IS THE INFORMATION THAT THE 99% NEEDS! Not the spoon feed garbage the media and government keeps dishing out.

http://theelevationgroup.net/presentation/register.php?a_aid=160973&a_bid=290b868b

I have even started my own blog that helps the 99%, sign up at www.advicefourlife.com

[-] 1 points by doru001 (174) 3 years ago

You confuse issues.

Money is one thing, gold another. If you want to use gold, then use it. Don't force it on us.

FDR took us out of a big depression. All world followed suit.

Speculation can take place even easier with a gold standard, as it did in the '30's. Banks can multiply money (check the college level textbook).

[-] 1 points by powertothepeople (1264) 3 years ago

If a collapse actually happens, the person with the most FOOD or water is going to win, not the person with the most gold. Gold will become worthless, it has no magic power to produce anything that you will need to survive.

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 3 years ago

Yes if something akin to the complete and total end of the world as we know it happens instantly this is true.

That won't happen. We will have a shot period of run when the dollar collapses. People will still trade but they will need a medium of exchange. Gold and silver and other things will be much easier to use and more trusted than barter. (Which is why currency developed in the first place.)

Even in extreme situations such as Kosovo gold and silver remained traded for goods and services outside of barter. They were the only things that did so.

[-] 1 points by concernedcitizen (121) 3 years ago

Gold will always play a role as a money, or as a check against a money system that is out of control. But the simple facts are the gold backed money has never worked any more than fiat money, as the powers that be simply change the valuations whenever it's to their liking (cue FDR and Nixon). What's needed are strict Constitutional rules related the CREATION and CONTROL of money. Gold will always have an important role - but it is not the panacea to our debt issues - Constitutional oversight is:

http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2010/01/fallacy-of-gold-backed-money_02.html

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

he who has the gold makes the rules

[-] 1 points by ks6 (12) 3 years ago

Please, Oh please, end this tired debate. To all those who think that returning to the gold standard is going to be the saving grace of all humanity, I have one request: Please pick up your history books and READ about the havoc that the Gold Standard has been wreaking on economies for the years that it was used and appreciate how non-sensical this idea is.

Or better, read an Economics textbook. Or speak to an Economist (who isn't Robert Mundell). That'll clear up all the fog and idiocy behind this post.

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 3 years ago

Hi, economist here. Commodity currency would have avoided many of the structural problems we face today by making it impossible for the government to create currency on the backs of future generations.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

You're the one who needs to read their history, though it's clear you know nothing of the history of the United States. The US became the most prosperous country on earth because of a currency with intrinsic value. Gold and silver currency keeps real wealth in the hands of the most humble worker. Paper currency steals that wealth and transfers it to banksters. That's why America's founders wrote a gold and silver currency into our constitution. Yeah, you go read your "economics" textbooks, lol. I'll take Thomas Jefferson over anything you've been brainwashed with.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

U.S. Constitution - Article 1 Section 10

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch Section 10 - Powers Prohibited of States

No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

[-] 1 points by Esposito (173) 3 years ago

Nixon took us off the gold standard.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

And before that, FDR stole it from the American people through confiscation. Americans were forced to take paper while FDR allowed his European elite friends to cash in their US dollars for gold. In one fell swoop, FDR transferred the real wealth of the American people to rich Euroslime.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Gold and silver. Been honest money since the dawn of time. The only money that's ever worked, and for those who thinks it stops the economy from growing, u r f-ing right it does. A economy growing unsustainably is what caused this mess. Only post if you know your history.

[-] 1 points by mmanavdj (59) 3 years ago

Pretty sure more economic crashes happened from 1850 - 1920 than have since we left the gold standard. I am also pretty sure we were on the Gold Standard leading up to the Great Depression.

[-] 1 points by Argentina (178) from Puerto Madryn, Chubut 3 years ago

Gold Standard , has many troubles, it doesnt let the economy grow. On the other hand actual "debt" standart has to much ecnomy grow to infinitum becausy a FIAT currency is more like a Ponzi esquems.

The new money should be backup with somethings that evrebody likes, that there is always be, but cant be create easly. A new money must be exchange all around the world, can be hold, but no much, and will always be usefull.

What all humans need is energy and food.

So goverment (or what ever) should create a printed paper backup on energy.

Sample 1 money paper = 1 kilowatthour

So if you need to warm your house or fuel you car, you can exchange that money paper for energy on a "FED" or whatever.

Money will just be printed if a surplus of energy arrise, for sample if a win tower makes 100Megawattsyear.... centralbank is allow to create 100Millons of printed money....

If you have for sample a collapse of a nuclear plant that generates 1000MegaWatts , central bank,should be forced to take out money for 1000 millons....

BAnks, and all capitalism system works the same. But the truoble of execesive printing is out. The countrys and the people that take care of energy will be the real rich countrys, and becasue they are good taking care of energy they will have surplus.

In the equation food can be there also, food makes energy taking it from each meter2 of fields. The sun is capture ,and energy is done that way also, on the energy given by food.

Argentina

[-] 1 points by oaco4242 (56) 3 years ago

This is a fantastic idea -- and one that I came up with about 2 months ago. Check out this website www.energybackedmoney.com -- it can and will work

the money supply would be equal to consumption plus export plus storage (batteries) -- therefore if we wanted to consume more the money supply would equivalently rise.

[-] 1 points by ks6 (12) 3 years ago

Oh dear. Please go kill yourself or euthanize your brain before this disease of an idea spreads to any other numnuts out there.

[-] 1 points by Argentina (178) from Puerto Madryn, Chubut 3 years ago

Is better to have some ideas, a not nothing. There is only 1 thing I cant solve to make this work. The link betwen food and energy. How to mesuare the % yield of a square meter of agriculture. Some agriculture are better to take energy from sun. That should be sooner or later be consider on a energy based money sistem.

[-] 1 points by oaco4242 (56) 3 years ago

Surprisingly the creators of the idea of money backed by electricity were Thomas Edison and Thomas Jefferson. The reason it did not become law is that electricity was such a new thing and not very widespread at the time.

Really, kill myself? What kind of person are you that you would suggest something so heinous? Also before I accept your response to the idea, please offer some sort of reason that you believe it to be a disease, otherwise your comments are unjustly served.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.

[-] 1 points by Argentina (178) from Puerto Madryn, Chubut 3 years ago

QUOTE""Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy.""QUOTE

It posible to work around a economy on tangibles. The trouble is wich tangible you take. Is not the same to use a fix tangible like gold. There is a finite quantity of gold on earth, than for sample a tangible like energy, there will be infinity amuont if humans are capable of mining it (mining energy from sun is waht humans had been making since they discover how to take "sun" like fire from wood, and in moderns days taking the sun that is capture on petroleum).

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

yep.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

marxism is NOT interesting to ANY of us.

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

great thing then that a gold standard has surely nothing to do with marxism despite the author calling himself Marx101 for whatever weird reason.

[-] 0 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

fine point i suppose bit then the gold standard idea is absurd.. not quite as absurd as marxism.. but close..

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

well not as absurd as free market without capitalism but we've been through that already didnt we. you dont want to understand that market = trade = private property = capital = wage labour = capitalism.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

lol. a free market needs capitalism like a fish needs a bike. Your string of = signs is a long stream of slippery slope connections.

While that would usually be mostly so, your missing the actual definitions of these systems in political science and systems theory- definitions which i take exactly and literally whereas all you guys bumble around in accidental ignorance and social conventions and he long stretched out nonsensical meanings that the words distort into.

While a market does equal trade, already you presume that private property must be involved for trade, which does not in theory have to be true since in essence you cn have community property. private capital is also again an assumption, but lets just assume that this new free market system has both. And fine even wage labor. All of that however does not have to equal capitalism, and a close attention to the specific details of the definition of a capitalist system will show that in essence capitalism is the belief in using banks and having loans. Capital. Capital is used for what how? The idea here is that there is a banking oligarchy, which in essence through money rules the world in a very direct economic manner. Capitalism is thus a form of oligarchy. A free market system can exist without banks. Or it can even exist with banks but without capital being used as such in that manner- to create bubbles and insulate the rich.

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

well in theory a fish can sell a bike to get a new suit to impress his fish friends. however in the real world theres no such thing as communities trading without individuals trading. anyways not important to me, the thing you get really wrong is banks and loans. capital has never been banks and loands only, you are talking about finance capital and finance is an attribute to capital, not its definition. if you trade and make a profit that is capital, if you produce and make a profit that is capital. however as soon as you have money you have credit and banks = financial capital so it will suffice for my purpose if you concede this: trade = money = capital. a free market system without banks would just be barter and whatever you measure the value in would be its money.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

thats true, but i think you miss the point. just because trading is going on does not mean a system is capitalism. Capitalism is one of many thousand of different possible economic systems.

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

no but free trade is capitalism. the more free the more capitalism. socialists restricted trade, they even managed it, they planned prices, wages and they even planned profits, it was always private property or socialism and free trade is absolute private property.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

no. free trade is not always capitalism. in fact free trade is actually different than capitalism esp where you mean :"FREE" in a literal instead of double think sense. Capitalism can only give us SLAVE trade because it always produces dynamic systemic inequalities.

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

then prove it instead of claiming it. ive explained in length what is the connection of trade and capitalism, the value form that is money that is property that is capital that is wage labour. you just keep repeating yourself with that postulate but you cant back it up, its because you made an ideal of government-free trade and not because you pursue the truth of the matter that is trade.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Too much semantics, not enough knowledge

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

Kooch 1 points 1 hour ago

The oligarchs will just corner the gold market and maintain their control. reply permalink ↥ ↧ gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago

bingo. you know how they ended the gold standard? they made it illegal to own gold and forced everyone to turn it in on a tiny fraction of its worth.

why is it people fail to learn from history? the republican con scammers send you back to gold because thats a bubble well explored and easy as a con scam to run again on the public. invest in gold. just wait till the federal government declares an emergency and confiscates all the gold and see how smart that was. reply permalink edit delete

[-] 1 points by marsdefIAnCe (365) 3 years ago

Is food worthless too? Because I have a great deal of success exchanging that "worthless" paper you talk about for food.

There is no point in advocating positions if the words you use do not make any sense.

[-] 1 points by Laissezfaire4lyfe (1) 3 years ago

It was actually Nixon who took us off the gold standard.

[-] 1 points by marcion (14) 3 years ago

this is interesting, but an "academic" discussion. it does not move us forward.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

If you don't stop the printing presses, you will be owned by corporate masters forever. Read Thomas Jefferson on this. Academic my ass.

[-] 1 points by marcion (14) 3 years ago

so what's your action step? what's the point of this thread?

no offense, but the fact that you suggest i read a 200-year old tract proves that this is purely academic. not that i disagree at all, but it doesn't move us forward.

gold and silver are commodities like anything else (pewter, beef, corn, etc). completely arbitrary, value is socially constructed. just like money.

i don't have a lot of time or energy. i'm looking to support ways to help move this thing forward.

there is a lot of anger on this board. a lot of academic arguments. a lot of energy being wasted.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

OK, here it is.

Begging our masters to punish the other guy some more will only hand them more power to rule over us with.

If we don't hack it off at the root (counterfeit money that they use to buy up everything, and I mean everything), we will accomplish a big fat zero, except maybe the blowback will simply make things worse, and the movement blamed for it. Or used as an excuse to clamp down, like 9/11 was with the Patriot Act.

If we want freedom, we need to get people to demand the dismantling of the Federal Reserve Bank. That's it. If they don't, we're toast. And the anger will be diverted to destruction, and the destruction will be used to impose a police state.

Protests are forming at Federal Reserve Bank branches all across the nation. Central banks have been banned before. We can do it again. If people losing their jobs, their homes, being regulated and bossed and pushed around, impoverished by their own government doesn't cause a great awakening now, then we're not even as intelligent as a society as we were two centuries ago. People have been stampeded one way and another like cattle since the dawn of man. If they can't be convinced to strike the root, to starve the beast, then it is all in vain.

The system is crumbling right now before our very eyes. If we are to have a renaissance, it will have to be started right here and right now. We need to be prepared to say no to the new global currency if we want to be able to control our own lives and keep what we earn. That's the bottom line.

Help move THAT forward.

[-] 1 points by marcion (14) 3 years ago

i don't appreciate the sarcasm, but ending the fed is definitely something i support.

i just don't think it's the goal at hand, and i don't see many other people mentioning it. and what you're saying now has little to do with the original post and my original complaint (gold & silver) ... which are publicly traded commodities IN WALL STREET! every time someone says "buy gold", some Wall Street huckster like Madoff takes a commission and gets rich. money is wrong because it has a mediator who takes a commission. gold and silver are the same.

i would go a step further and propose establishing a true federal bank (a viable alternative to bank of america, like venezuela and many other countries have). but the only logical first step is end the privatizing of everything, end corporate welfare & personhood, through a constitutional amendment ("Get Money Out" already has momentum).

once the money is out of washington, ending the fed would be easier.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Sorry, no sarcasm intended, and I can't see where you got that impression from what I wrote.

When you talk of 'buy gold', you're falling for the trick. Gold is money wherever there are no legal tender laws to force people to take paper instead. So that would be like saying 'buy money'.

If you want to get the money out, the only way is to really get the money out. No counterfeiting, no printing, no creating dollars and borrowing them on our behalf and then expecting us to slave away for generations to pay back the printer with real wealth plus interest. Which interest has to be borrowed into existence, too. So it literally and technically can never be repaid. I apologize if you already knew all that, but if you didn't, perhaps now you realize how this single issue has been the tool that was used to subvert our nation and keep us all running on treadmills like some kind of farming operation.

There's no need for a central bank if it isn't counterfeiting money. Do we really need these guys destroying our economy with their secret meetings where they price-fix half of every transaction?

And yeah, as a matter of academic ancient history, there was one time when the U.S. wasn't in debt. It was right after Andrew Jackson stomped the central bank out of existence.

This is THE central, do-or-die issue. Leave it unsolved, and everything keeps getting worse. Guaranteed.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

there is not enough gold in the world to go back to a gold standard. reality check. fools.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Of course there is, only rate changes

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

lol. no. there is not. not by several orders of magnitude. this is why anyone who has knowledge knows that the gold standard peeps are frigging ignorant.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

Of course there is! prices are just relative. If a a hamburger costs $5 now it costs 30 cents in silver when you have a Bretton Woods like system. The global GDP is so high because the USD has been inflated for 98 years!

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

round in circles we go. i tell you incontrovertible facts and you argue proven wingnut nonsense.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

Look the fact is gold and silver have been money for thousands of years. China and Russia have massive gold reserves and the Yuan or Ruble or both will be backed by gold. Instantly dollars are worthless. The Arabs will say "you want oil, pay in Yuan". You can't exchange yuan for dollars because it's not a fair trade. Don't believe me. I don't care. You'll get it when your savings are reduced to toilet paper.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

the fact is there is not enough gold in the world to represent the money in the world by 4 orders of magnitude. the end. the fact is that you are fronting for an infantile, ignorant, non answer, which the corporate oligarchs fed to you in order to laugh at how ignorant and stupid you are, and keep you as completely harmless for being completely unclued.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

numbers are relative, you have a 1 trillion dollar global GDP as opposed to a 60 trillion . You resort to calling names when you can't refute this simple truth. You sound like a child.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

there is an objective reality, and that objective reality is the facts i have stated. you ad homming me really just shows again you have no content and no argument. You continuing to argue in ignorance is pathetic, and it shows you lack moral clarity.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

why insult me? what does that accomplish?

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

So you want a debt free fiat currency. That sounds great for domestic trade and exchange! But what happens when you need palm oil for soap that only comes from Asia, South America and Africa? Are those countries going to accept your fiat currency? Why trade with you when they can get real money from China or Russia?

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

ultimately theres no reason why everything can't come from 100 miles away or closer and systemically thats how it ought to be for 20 reasons not the least of which is mark up costs for transportation. Clearly these are complicated issues requiring thoughtful exploration and research. I'm not going to make believe i have a solution on this handy. I don't. I have some ideas, but i can't certify them rock solid. I can tell you on the other hand that a gold standard is flatly impossible. I agree, the valuation of our currency cross currency is a big problem. Its also a problem that has been solved several different ways, so its not impossible. We need to work out the BEST solution. That requires work and research and time and energy and stop make believing we know things we don't. I have 20 phds worth of esoteric knowledge. not in economics. So there you have it.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

I totally agree! I am a firm believer in locally sourcing everything. I love the idea of debt free domestic currency. it works so long as the money supply is kept in check. What do we do about international trade? Do we isolate ourselves? I bring up palm oil because its production is the highest per hectare of all oil seed crops. This is a huge problem that no one knows about. Americans want cheap soap but that cheap soap is destroying the natural environment of the third world. If soap production without palm oil is produced locally it's outrageously expense, to the tune of maybe $10 or $12 a 4 ounce bar.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

and so. the solution ethically is; don't get our resources cheap from third world sources. make it ourselves locally. I agree, there are dozens of tragedy stories everywhere corporatism goes- people dying to get us our coffee beans... robbed of their own land and slaved literally to death on it while starving.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

So we can have a starbucks on every other corner. We are not the 99%. We are 10% at most. I wonder if I'm in that 10%. The other 89% want the cheap soap, coffee beans, tv's and cellphones made by slaves. They don't think twice about where things come from or how much human oppression is involved in their materialistic addictions. How do we get the 89% to change? This is as much about the flaws of the 99% as it is the 1%. It's a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth. The apple computer I'm creating this response on was made by foxconn, the most oppressive contract manufacturer on the planet. I think we need to slowly dissolve the system of material consumerism and put our technology towards space travel and growing our souls. We need to maintain individual liberty, within a minimalist sustainable agrarian planet, and an industrial space program to benefit the development of our species. Star trek sheet!

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

we can become the 99 percent, but we ain't there yet, and the chaos and disorganization is actually alienating about 75 percent, so we are now going to have to work three times harder should our act come together to win those people over. I agree about space travel. if you practice colonizing mars 1001 times on planet earth, thats the same as solving all of our social and civil problems via civil engineering.

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

Right. All movements like this fail without a solid plan and leadership. This movement needs leadership with at least a 50 year plan. The elite have to abandon their despotic agenda and stop pushing materialism on the 99%. There has to be individual sovereignty, complete debt forgiveness, currency reform, localized industrial reform, patent reform on technology (primarily related to energy and propulsion), and a complete cleanup of the environment.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

well.. yeah... some of that i'd put in the ten year plan near the end.. but fer sure..

[-] 1 points by anima (60) 3 years ago

No we need at least a 50 year plan with political safeguards in place so this can't happen again. We need to think of every possible scenario as the founding fathers did not and develop constitutional safeguards for generations and generations after us.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

agreed fer sure. gotta do this the slow and steady conscious and right way.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

U can keep knowledge, I have proof

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

u have junk nonsense

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

History, examples, proof. Not guesswork......

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

great idea. start with systems theory and work your way to economics.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

great idea. start with systems theory and work your way to economics.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Then stay in perpetual debt forever, you tool.

Ever heard of a half ounce? A tenth? A farthing?

And how about silver for small transactions?

$.10 / gal is the going price right now -- in silver.

You need to wake up on this issue.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

quite the opposite. The actual truth behind your pathetically ignorant idea is that its the elites other con scam. Because they know that its simply impossible given that theres not enough gold in the world.. because that then leads to fractional reserve golding instead of just fractional reserve banking. this is not a problem solution, this is a control freak mind fook. I'm tired of arguing with fools, and this would mostly be resolved if there was sub sub forums because then moronic things like this would pop up once and i'd shoot them down once instead of them popping up another time and usually 50 times per moron.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

further more if you want real change; change the information economy. The material economy is particularly easy to manipulate and esp will be for your real retort. which is. What happens when it becomes possible to manufacture gold out of pretty much anything else? You know they already make gold out of pretty much anything else at the quantum scale in the lab?

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

see? i can argue this one on either side with shit you never dreamed of.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Shit would be how I describe your arguments too, finally we are in agreement

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Can u argue it with working examples from history?

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

OK, you win. We'll stick with paper money. As long as I get to print my own too.

What part of zero cost to hit a key to create dollars doesn't sink in? Versus you having to work for every thin dime you can scrape together?

What part of having a niagara falls of free money to buy anything they want, including your government, doesn't hit home with you?

What part of a cabal that meets in secret doing central economic planning, affecting one half of every transaction hasn't hit home with you, if you haven't lost a home as a result (yet)?

What part of every dollar in existence being a debt note backed by the full faith and credit of your government to tax your future, instead of being stored wealth, doesn't make sense to you?

No need to compare shit dreams. We all have plenty of those.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

all interesting problems, none of which are solved by a gold standard.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

i have a better idea. we have the congressional states print the money like it states in the constitution. the money is fiat currency backed by holdings the government owns. Each state prints its own original money, and the money of all states is fine to use in any of them. Congress prints the money and distributes it to create the social services and etc which it needs. Then the money enters a free market system.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Umm, someone adulterated my copy of the constitution. They crossed out what you wrote and put in, "No state shall make anything but gold and silver coin legal tender in payment of debt".

Wouldn't hurt to find out why they said that.

[-] 1 points by Kooch (77) 3 years ago

The oligarchs will just corner the gold market and maintain their control.

[-] 2 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

They won't be able to do that. Besides, there are other forms of money. Like silver. And ammo.

At least they won't be able to print the money, loan it to your government, then have your government come with a gun and take your money earned from REAL WEALTH you CREATE, and hand it back to them, with interest. Hmmm?

[-] 1 points by Kooch (77) 3 years ago

You underestimate the oligarchs. It is not what backs the currency, it's who controls the quantity. Bring back the greenback!

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Oh yeah, the greenback, so the same congress that already spends double what it can tax us for can simply print the money Zimbabwe-style?

And you think that slows down Oligarchs? Fake money coming off a printing press (actually just digits on a hard drive) are what create and allow oligarchs.

Separation of corporation and state, and sound (meaning REAL money) will make this kind of mischief extremely hard to pull off. Fake money is the tool that was used to pull off the largest transfer of wealth in human history, and they are making one last big grab right now before the whole system collapses. Again. Because they collapse, every single time. They pretend YOU OWE all that debt, when it was all printed.

It's not my debt. And I'm not paying it.

And greenback single-ply toilet paper money would be 'not worth a continental' overnight.

Legal tender law means 'this paper is worth something because my gun says so'. Simply eliminate that law, let people trade with whatever they want. Then nobody corners any market on currency, people would simply use something else.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

great points.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Thank you!

[-] 1 points by Kooch (77) 3 years ago

I'm all for state issued gold or silver currency as an alternative to government issued non-debt based currency. And I understand that a new transparent monetary board would need to be separate from Congress. But we'd be a hell of a lot better off.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

That would be a huge improvement! There wouldn't need to be a monetary board. Because there would be nothing for them to price-fix. No trillions to skim off for themselves. No way to steal through counterfeiting. Under the constitution, congress sets weights and measures and fineness standards to regulate the value of coins (in those days, value meant 'percentage of gold or silver times weight'). Stop 'em from cheating, and all the blessings of our improved productivity will come flowing back to our own benefit.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

bingo. you know how they ended the gold standard? they made it illegal to own gold and forced everyone to turn it in on a tiny fraction of its worth.

why is it people fail to learn from history? the republican con scammers send you back to gold because thats a bubble well explored and easy as a con scam to run again on the public. invest in gold. just wait till the federal government declares an emergency and confiscates all the gold and see how smart that was.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

Only 7% of people actually turned it in, and no one had it confiscated

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

lol. shays rebellion. people had their entire farms confiscated for failing to turn it in.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

This time around, you're dealing with a society that routinely flouts laws and deals in contraband on a casual basis. They'll say NO, you can't have my gold.

And this time around, we have the internet, too. The truth has leaked out. No way they would have the balls to try to confiscate gold. The blowback would be way too dangerous for them.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

really? how would the blow back be if they stole a few hundred trillion from the taxpayers? oh. wait. they did that. What if they blew up a few buildings in downtown new york and blamed it on islamic juhadists? oh,. wait they did that.. what if they constructed a thousand concentraton camps to put us all in... oh.. wait they did that... what if they ran a giant con scam government of corporate oligarchy and make believed everything else including the vote... oh.. wait.. they did that... excuse me? blow back? if theres ever going to be serious blow back the time for it was decades ago. they think they can get away with murder because they always have.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

skull and bones secret society practices ritual child sacrifice ... never any blow back over that tho... seriously? get real. unemployment in this country is at one quarter of the people unemployed because of the caste wars. blow back? show me some spine.. and some intelligence.. yea dang humans..

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 3 years ago

Heh. Good points.

But the truth is leaking on these. The fear-based dominant social themes that kept everyone in lockstep the previous century are failing faster and faster.

And it is resulting in people taking to the streets, right now.

We'll see. Usually ends badly. And there's not much consensus on this one, besides anger at those who've gotten fat at their expense. Who are disposable stooges, so ...

[-] 1 points by forumwarrior (53) 3 years ago

Shays' Rebellion

[-] 0 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

gold is not worth its weight

[-] 1 points by GuestFromSpain (14) from Madrid, Comunidad de Madrid 3 years ago

Yes, that's precisely what I have never been able to understand. Why is it so important to have gold? What makes it so precious, so desirable? And where are the historic roots of all that? Women's necklaces?

[-] 1 points by Lysander (9) 3 years ago

So an ounce of gold is not worth an ounce? An ounce is a unit of mass, not monetary value. Your statement is meaningless.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

useful as a conductor not allergenic o good to replace missing teeth soft and easy to craft to jewelry

not much real value

[-] 1 points by Lysander (9) 3 years ago

Define "real value". Nothing has intrinsic value as all value is imputed by human actions. Gold doesn't need to have a lot of usefulness in order to be a good money; in fact, it's almost better if it doesn't. Less demand elsewhere means more can be use for money.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

gold was easy to press to coins that did not corode and its rarity made it useful as a currency much like the thread paper dollar bills of today

[-] 1 points by Lysander (9) 3 years ago

Except that paper money isn't rare and can be created at whim. Supply and demand dictates that the more you print, the less value each unit has. The strength of a gold standard is it will limit the supply of currency and will prevent governments and central banks from taxing the people through inflation.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

Gold would keep the government from creating more money.

What of the numbers in the banks, those are not represented by gold or paper

inflation does make minimum wage worth less each year

[-] 1 points by Lysander (9) 3 years ago

I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Do you or do you not support the gold standard?

[-] 1 points by pariscommune (205) 3 years ago

when you say real value do you mean usefullness? its usefull as a measure of value and has served as money for thousands of years, now that should get you thinking about value o_O

[-] -1 points by anonymous (48) 3 years ago

lets base our money on the TWITTER standard. more twitter followers = more money.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

And make Charlie sheen the richest man in the world? Wtf not!

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 3 years ago

He couldn't do worse than these fools