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Forum Post: Freedom is a big fat illusion

Posted 6 years ago on May 21, 2012, 7:24 p.m. EST by elf3 (4045)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The invisible noose is growing tighter - Corporations are constructing a massive war against the people in this country and against democracy. Democracy doesn't serve them - we do. It's only when we awake from the illusion of free markets that we will begin to see this. They are working each and every day against us with teams of lawyers, politicians, judges, lobbyists, to create a market so fixed that we have no choices left. They are growing larger, conglomerating themselves, attacking us with precedents and patents, and lawsuits on a massive scale that has never been seen. Every day they are attacking our freedom and using our government against us. They have stolen the free press, they are busy creating multi-million dollar campaigns against us via mailings, advertisements, AstroTurf campaigns which present themselves to be part of us when in fact they represent multi-million dollar mega corporations. Who can we look to what can we do? Our rights have been choked off - everyday we lose more freedom and by the time we find out it's too late to do anything. We don't have millions of dollars, we don't have anytime to watch guard all of our rights, to read all of the fine print and they know it - they are using that against us. It is a system of control, constructed consumerism where there is no choice but to buy from them at inflated prices created buy overseas slave labor or to work for them at a pay rate that will keep you poor, overworked, and too exhausted to fight.



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[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

I feel pretty free. I am mostly free to do and say what I please in this country. The only group that really controls me is the government by taking 50% of my earnings every year. Corporations do not take anything from me.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

Corporations are your government - welfare dollars go back into the pockets of corporations - they will never cut it or crack down on fraud for that very reason. Fifty percent of your taxes is helping to keep the monopolies alive in one of the worst economic downturns this nation has ever seen. If you're paying fifty percent you still keep enough to shop and now you provide the poor with the ability to shop. Consumerism abounds - you should be happy - you're helping the markets to thrive. It's done in the name of the poor - so it looks valiant - it's just another bail out in disguise. It's not actually helping the poor though - it keeps them dependent. Reliant - the whole goal of corporations is to keep you reliant. They want to fix the job market and the consumer market so tight that you have NO choice left and when you choose to stop buying, they will force 50 percent of your money away from you so someone else still can.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

The government takes money form me and gives the money to the corporations and other people. While that does not make me a slave it does suck.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

feeling free... and being free... are two different things... see -- http://mosheh.org/Freedom-and-THE-LAW.html

Freedom... meant... freedom from the government controlling us.... which is why we used to be able to posess guns, drugs, just about anything...
but in 1938 FDR changed the legal system, WITH NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO DO SO.... and took away true freedom and gave us civil liberties... which allowed them to take away guns, restrict carrying what guns are left, and started the drug war... not to mention writing 66 million laws since 1933 to restrict and control every part of our lives... which is why they can now take your money, take your car right off the street.. take your home, and even take your children away.... you feel free... only because they controlled the education system to blind you to what real freedom was... or should be. You have been misled into thinking your chains are freedom... but the reality is you are chained up.. controlled like an animal who thinks his neck collar is freedom. Wake up.

[-] 4 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

I agree that many liberties have eroded since 1776.

My home technically is not mine since I owe $275,000 to the bank which is more than half of what it is worth. Without that loan from the bank I would not have been able to buy it. So the bank took a risk giving me $300,000 when I bought it and I pay it back with interest. It is a pretty good system. The same holds for the car I "bought" for $23,000. I don't have they kind of money but I have the care and I pay the bank $300 every month.

They cannot take the house or the car unless I break the contract by not paying them back. That was the deal I signed. I consider it a pretty good deal. I am sitting on my deck with a glass of beer and the tunes cranking.

I know I am not 100& free. I cannot smoke pot out here on my own deck which to me is ridiculous. I can go to the doctor and tell them my back hurts or I have anxiety or am depressed and they will give me some potent drugs but I cannot smoke the leave of a plant that God put on the earth.

In the end however, I am far from enslaved or controlled like an animal.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

add up the interest over the life of that loan and tell me again how you aren't a slave (tell me again why property is costing such a huge percentage of what you're able to earn.) Who owns the land? Who is forcing you to compete with slave labor to provide for your family? Why do you get a nice interest write off each tax year on the mortgage? Answer (The write off enables the banks to charge even more interest at the expense of the tax payer) It may seem like a good deal on face value but is it? When gas becomes 50 percent of your salary, when food does, what's going to happen to your mortgage then my friend. When you have monopolies - they can charge whatever they want (and when they're the only ones selling) well I guess you're going to buy it...So eat, or pay the mortgage, drive to work, or pay the mortgage when you're salary stops keeping up with the economy - where are you going to be? That's life right now for millions of Americans... we're just the canaries here smaller than you - we just can't hold our breath as long. Soon you're running out of air too - unless you wake up and stand with this movement.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

Because I can live in this hose without paying cash. I can earn more than 4% elsewhere.

If you make the right decisions you will not be a slave. I look around and see that while everyone complains about gas prices most are driving SUVs. Most do not make their homes energy efficient. Save and invest your money instead of spending it in things you really do not need.

Mortgages are not sold my monopolies. There are many banks, S&Ls and Credit Unions competing for your business.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

Do you believe houses and high end items would be so expensive if not so many people had access to easy credit?

I believe easy credit is a symptom of the fact that the working class never received any of the economic benefits of the last Fifty years, and if we would have seen our wages increased and not supply side economics, there would be less need for private credit. Also if you still had to put twenty percent down when borrowing, wouldn't supply and demand dictate lesser cost, or principal?

Though I know I will never see this, I believe that if credit was done away with, income inequality would cease to be an issue.But that is just me thinking out loud. people should have gotten raises for the efficiency gains this nation has made in the last thirty years, but instead we got supply sided.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

There is no way that average people could buy houses, cars, businesses, equipment, and other capital items without credit. They are assets that you need to purchase over time. I love that I can live in this house that I technically do not own.

In my humble opinion, It would be a sad day for the working class it credit were done away with.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

I have to disagree. And I bet Henry Ford would agree with me, considering none of his employees needed credit to buy a car.

Also you addressed my mental rambling and never addressed the supply and demand aspect of easy credit. Do you believe easy credit creates higher prices?

I believe tighter credit requirements and higher wages creates better consumers. It easy to be frivolous when the bill is do in the future. Just ask The people in D.C.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

Sure you can buy a model A ford, or a used Honda accord, but I want a BMW convertible. Credit is awesome!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33636) from Coon Rapids, MN 6 years ago

Yep the USA used to run fairly well on the principal of cash and carry. Those were some prosperous days. Blue collar workers buying a home and actually paying it off. My My My - how times have changed.

[-] 0 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

first of all.... debt slavery is to lend for gain, where the person who got the loan does not own his property.. but the lender does... this is as old as biblical times... debt slavery is nothing new, and all they have done is put a new face on it... but... what is worse.... is that once you pay it off... after you think you own it.... after that... you still have to pay a never ending rent to the government.... and if you do not pay it as property taxes... they take your property and get nothing... nothing... that... is called being a sharecropper... who is allowed to use land... but never really owns it... This is also as old as biblical times... the way kings have oppressed people for 1000's of years... see--- http://mosheh.org/message-for-people.html

the constitution was supposed to prevent debt slavery.. and prevent making us into sharecroppers.... We used to be free.. and own real property... Today.. we have no freedom and do not have true ownership of anything... see --- http://mosheh.org/Property-Rights.html

i say... we can fix this.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

I do not feel a slave to my debt and I do not care how old the practice is. I pay a measly 4% interest to live in a house I could never afford to pay cash for. I love my house even though I do not own it yet. I am getting closer each month and who knows, I may sell it before I fully own it.

Property taxes are evil. That I can agree with. In my opinion consumption taxes should be used to cover all the expenses of establishing justice, providing for the common defense, and securing domestic tranquility.

Property taxes coupled with inflation are what push most seniors out of their homes.

[-] 0 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

More like 200 percent ? You're not figuring it out correctly - 4 percent is not actually 4 percent when the loan is amortized.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

4% APR allows me to live in this house. The money I did not have to tie up can earn and has earned more than 4% elsewhere.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

lucky for you but I'd like you to consider some Americans after rent, insurances, food, gas, etc. have nothing left to save or invest - each fluctuation in the markets even slight inflation can sink them - especially when there are no jobs and no alternatives. Not even talking extras - the last time I bought a pair of shoes had to be 4 years ago. I work in a professional office and as my clothing begins to wear away I'm not sure how I'm going to afford new stuff. I work full time (I don't have a degree) and have been stuck on a treadmill making the same salary for the last 15 years the pay has gone down instead of up - yet I go to buy something in the store or even groceries and it can cost me a whole day's pay ($80.00). That gas fill up in my el cheapo car that I've had for 10 years adds up to a full weeks pay each month. So for those of us who do live simply - live within our means, we're sinking fast. I would love to go to college, I'd love to start a business, but the chances of that happening are like winning the lottery. So I live to work and don't eat out - I feel indentured. More than 50 percent of Americans make less than $26,000 a year and live this way. I happen to live in a part of the country that wasn't hit hard our unemployment is only 9 percent but jobs keep going overseas (office jobs are going to India in droves driving down my wage scale even further). Yet Wall Street monopolies still haven't lowered the cost of food or goods in relation they simply demand that you pay it or starve. Not everyone is starving - so they get away with it. They think you can somehow come up with the money.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

There is no reason you cannot go to college. I went to college and worked full time. I paid for my college education up front. I went to a state school co the cost was low.

This post was about freedom and you are certainly free to go to college. If you worked hard in High School you can even earn a scholarship and go for free.

As for saving, I have a lot of friends that save nothing but have a big flat screen TV, pay $70/week for a carton of cigarettes, go out to the bar, go out to eat, and complain they have no money,

As for prices going up, that has a lot to do with our monetary policies of borrowing and printing money to monetize the debt. Also the price of energy has increased so the cost to produce, transport, and store food has gone up.

[-] -1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

There is no way you could ever pay for state school on a coffee shop job or waiting tables and still pay rent and vehicle (have you even looked at college prices lately (state schools charge what private schools used to!) You also need a job with hours to allow for a full-time schedule in school - and those can't pay the bills in fact they still pay the same wage they used to even though state college charges private school rates now. Care to share the whole story of how you worked your way up from scratch? I had half senile teachers in school and stayed up every night teaching myself - I learned a lot on my own, but not enough to earn a scholarship. I barely afford food and shoes and clothing is a luxury item (forget about flat screen) I never shop for extraneous items. Your theories are flawed and you are seemingly leaving out facts. Half truth (whatever makes yo sleep easier at night I guess.) Just please don't tell me you're one of those people who considers yourself poor because you can't cash in your trust fund or inheritance yet. Otherwise I think you'd be struggling to save for your owns kids education, paying off your student loans, and worrying about how to help your parents when their own health begins to decline and they need financial help themselves. What are you leaving out?

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

If you are working in a coffee shop you can apply for federal financial aid (FAFSA). That is money you do not have to pay back.

If you are unemployed, NJ offers a tuition waiver for county colleges so you go for free.

If you are a volunteer fire fighter, EMC, or in the National Guard you also get a tuition waiver and go for free.

If you make too much money to qualify for financial aid, you can also get a loan that does not have to back paid back until you graduate. There are even ways to get out of paying those loans back. If you chose a career in medicine you will not have to pay those loans back if you work in a Hospital for two years. If you chose nursing a career that has a shortage you can most likely get a scholarship and go for free.

Also, I should have mentioned that I went to county college for the first to years. The current price is $99 per credit or about $300 per course. That is about the same as it was when I went when you consider inflation. I transferred to a 4 year state school and my degree is from New Jersey Institute of Technology. I had good teachers and a good GPA so I went into the BS/MS program which allowed me to take 4 grad courses as my undergrad elective saving me more money on my graduate degree.

State tuition for NJIT is $447/credit or $5,878 for full time (19 credits, 6 classes) I paid by the credit and it took longer but I got it done. I did not apply for financial aid but probably should have. Tomas Edison State College is 4,432 for full time.

I do not consider myself poor now as I run a successful business. I do work a lot but I enjoy my work. Yes I am saving for my kids education.

[-] -1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

You're too uneducated to be preaching this you know nothing - If I quit my current job to go work in a coffee shop - the fafsa system looks at the wages from my prior year - so you want me to become homeless for a year and then siphen off the government in order to go to school you're advocating a system that rewards those who fail so they can succeed. #2 I don't make enough to qualify for a bank loan (you need enough collateral) #3 I can not qualify for a federally backed student loan as I am not in the priority age bracket. Nurses are being laid off in droves (1 per floor) then they hire all part time CNA's who can work one shift a week for $8.00 an hour because they collect welfare to live. Don't want to burst your bubble but an IT degree/ knowledge will become outdated in the time it took you to earn the degree (the helicopter generation is coming of age now and their wealthy mom and dad's gave them every educational advantage so good luck competing. Not to mention it's all being outsourced. If I had $5000.00 extra a year to pay for school I wouldn't need to go school that's like lottery money to me. I need to go because I'm broke at my stagnant wage scale and after taxes and bills there is not a dime left over. From what I can see school isn't worth the cost or time even if I could afford it. I'm ambitious - I've tried it all - and failed at my attempts to climb the American ladder. Plus you're still leaving out how exactly you came up with that big ole lump of 5000? - who paid your rent while you paid for school? Someone did. You're judging everyone else based on your own life circumstances and that is plain ignorant. Yes inflation has risen but wages haven't I make less than I did doing the same work 15 years ago - outsourcing has driven my wage scale down but goods cost more than they ever have...because of monopolies and price setting and because of false scarcity in the markets and a constructed market in which politicians are bribed to fix the conditions to benefit monopolies and destroy the working poor and middle class. Corporations cry foul against regulations but it is just Astro-turphing - they love a fixed market - they want control of it. And they use politicians to regulate it for workers (creating job scarecity) and for land monopolies and fixed housing markets, for the smaller businesses they create regulations and permits and barriers to success. They don't want a fair market - they want you reliant. They want you in debt, they want you without land (Rent forever) - conditions have been set up to block individual success in the name of large corporate monopolies and the 1 percent. If you think I'm somehow going to win against that - you are oblivious. Your success is fleeting - older generations are staying in business by renting to the younger and gauging the crap out of them for it. Young people have no savings because their elders got too greedy - their landlord's are getting their college money. But their kids will do alright - and so perpetuates the cycle of wealth and the shift that will see the institution of a caste system and the end of America.

[-] 3 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

You are the one who mentioned the job in the coffee shop.

I did not have to pay the 5,000 because, if you were paying attention, I went to county college and the tuition was $65/credit. After I started going to NJIT I started working in a children's hospital as a rehabilitation technician and they reimbursed my tuition for the last 1.5 years.

Registered Nurse is number one on the list for hottest jobs. My niece just went to UCLA for free and is working now on her PHD in gerontological nursing all for free. The baby boomers are all getting old.

As for the IT degree, while a degree does not guarantee you a job or success, I have been earning over $200,000/year for ten years as an IT consultant and close to that for ten years before that. Many of the jobs I have been getting lately are outsourced projects that failed and are being brought back home.

In life there are those with a "there's no way" attitude that will remain where they are. The people with the "I can do this" attitude will more likely succeed.

I did not judge anyone, I mentioned some of the options hoping you would think about going after some of them.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

If you don't work in a coffee shop or wait tables then how do you get a schedule that will allow you to go to school full time? This was the point which you missed. Community colleges don't have night programs anymore at least not for credit courses it's all fluff and filler now. The real courses are during the day. (Subsidies are to blame for that one.) Again judging others on one particular circumstance - your niece is exceptionally good in math (or perhaps had a better education than most) but for most people coming out of the public education system with half senile teachers on tenure this won't be the case. So if I wish hard enough - then it can happen? - I resent that you assume I don't work hard or don't try hard enough. Who says I want to be a nurse or go into IT - or that my goal is to be wealthy and never see my family like you? All I want is a fair economy where I can still have time to live while earning a modest living and be able to have something left at the end of the day for myself (both time and earnings) - Why should you have to work such long hours to save for your child's education, why does everything from cable to cars cost so much? Do you ever stop and ask why you need to make so much a year and give up so much of your life? Even for you at your wage I gather it's not all easy - but imagine living on less than $26000 per year like more than 50 percent of your fellow American's do? That's not just rough it's insanity - we're letting one percent of society determine how much of your life they want to take in exchange for their products - seems crazy to me. I think we should all have a chance - and not a chance at job slavery and student loan slavery but a chance at entrepreneurship. I want the end of monopolies. Where are the bakers, and butchers, and candlestick makers? We all know in China and you can only by their stuff in Walmart. But why ? Why are we all giving our time and money to these people/ monopolies? Things can be different - that's what this movement is about and why we're fighting so hard for it.

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

Quote from you that started this conversation:

"I work full time (I don't have a degree) and have been stuck on a treadmill making the same salary for the last 15 years"

My suggestions were all about getting off the treadmill. As for night classes, there are more today than ever before. I actually found that the best courses were taught at night. The professors at night are usually adjuncts that have day jobs. Most at NJIT were from from Bell Labs, Hewlett Packard, Honeywell and other tech companies. I found they had more real world knowledge than the career professors.

If you are disciplined, you can also get you degree taking classes on line. There are more options than ever. Tomas Edison State is just for adults and is very accommodating.

I do not "give up so much of my life". I enjoy my work. I look forward to solving problems and analyzing data and helping improve businesses. I spend the rest of my time with my family coaching hockey, leading the cub scout pack, volunteering at the observatory and the farm where we grow fresh food for the food bank. http://americasgrowarow.org

I can get behind some of the issues this movement is about but not all of them. There are many I agree with and many I do not. There are many different perspectives here and many different ideas as to what the solutions are. I do not subscribe to the us against them mentality. I believe that individuals working together can make a difference. One of the best experiences in my life was spending a week building homes for Habitat for Humanity. I plan to do it again. It is a great program.

[-] 0 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

And inflation is a result of debt currency... and my point is... debt slavery is the same today, as it has ever been...

The high cost of homes today... is also caused by the fact that everyone can get a debt loan to buy one... raising the prices...
which... serves the lenders... not the buyers...

Lending to someone without interest, for no profit, is a good thing, a kind thing, as long as the lender does not try to steal the assets purchased. (as would be under my proposed changes... as shown here... http://mosheh.org/A-New-Deal_2012.html )

TOTAL SLAVERY… IS where they force you to agree to work, or be beaten, and killed, and you are forced to say yes…. just like signing a contract.

DEBT SLAVERY IS… To lend for profit over time…. .. if i make you a large loan, and set it up so that a large percentage of your labor goes to make payments to me, and the total cost will be no less than double the loan, and.. if you ever fail to make a payment, even if it is the last one… YOU LOSE EVERYTHING… and i take it all… and YOU GET NOTHING…. if I do that to you… then for the period of time.. during the loan repayment period.. you are my debt slave, who must work to pay your debt, and if you do not, everything you own can be taken, and all you are investing in lost and taken as well, and you… as the borrower… are under contract for all of it… A CONTRACT… OF DEBT SLAVERY. that… is how it works. THAT IS HOW IT HAS ALWAYS WORKED…. in fact usually in history… the lender.. was also the employer, and landlord.. and market owner… and allowed them to truly rob people… but today… everything is broken up… but the lenders… are still making money by enslaving us to their debts, and owning parts.. %.. of our productive value.

A full slave… means you own it completely… the slave is your property. A debt slave… means you lend, and place them in debt to you, for terms… terms.. which provide double value or more on all loans, and also assured ownership of all investment assets… So that during the time of re-payment… everything the debt slave owns, is actually owned by the lender.


Because wake up… THAT IS HOW IT IS TODAY….. right now… this is your world. YOU… are a debt slave, to currency, to loans, and to the debts of the nation, placed on you.

We can fix this.. and set us all free. ---mosheh.org

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

If that is the case,

As I take another sip of my beer with Peter Gabriel serenading me as I sit on the deck of my house that I bought for $349,000 that is now worth $589,000 and I say to myself "I am thankful for this enslavement".

[-] 0 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

until you lose your job - oops (Unless you work for a big state union on an over-inflated connected salary that siphons off all of us hard working citizens?) In that case enjoy your welfare lifestyle - otherwise - I will pray for you as you hang on to your job by a thread. And if you work for a private union - my condolences since in about two years that will have contracted your labor to the rest of us broke schmoes.

[-] 0 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

Until... you fail to pay your taxes... after which... you lose it all, and get nothing... as the government sells it short... the point is.. if you actually owned it... then the government would have to sell it for fair market value... and GIVE YOU... the extra money. DO YOU... GET THE EXTRA MONEY????? NO...... That... is all the evidence you need to know... know.. you do not actually own it.... sure... if you make your payments... you can profit from the system... by selling it.... but... you never actually owned it.

True property rights... would mean that they can force the sale.. but you keep the value..... right now.. you get nothing. HOW... does that make you feel????

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

As I said, property taxes are evil.

My father is a retired senior and helps other people in trouble. He sets them up with a reverse mortgage and they get paid each month to live in their house.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

And when the reverse mortgage runs out???? will they get to stay in their home???? no... A reverse mortgage only a good thing if they die before it finishes the pay out. I would ask one thing... does a reverse mortgage insure that the grandchildren of these old people get the money when the old folks die????? if not... then it is another way to rob people.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

These people are in their late 60s and 70s have a 30 year reverse mortgage. They receive a check for $1,000-$2,000 a month.

It is not a way to rob them you are paying them monthly so they can stay in their house, pay the bills, buy food... Unfortunately several people lost their homes BEFORE my father joined the senior citizens group and taught them about RMs.

You do not lose the right to live in your house when the funds dry up. That is required by HUD law. In fact after 30 years your house will most likely be worth more money so you can re-apply for more cash.

Your heirs inherit any remaining equity if you die before using all the funds.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

What if the housing market crashes even further (who's picking up the tab when the bank can't get sell the property?) More gambling on the shoulders of the next generation. Why do we have so much to pay in taxes - well we can thank all those war-profiteer corporations, and corporations siphoning off the welfare system to stay afloat (where do you think all those welfare dollars are ultimately spent?) They love the welfare system. I'm sure they lobby greatly on behalf of it. All tax money ends up someplace - look a little closer at who gets really gets the benefit of our money.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

A reverse mortgage is a contract. If you house is worth 300,000 and you owe 100,000 you have 200,000 in equity and the contract is for that amount. If the market goes fluctuates it does not matter because you are not selling your house. Over time home values go up. My dad paid 20,000 for his house in 1960 and it is worth $759,000 now.

It is a great way for seniors to stay in their houses.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

Well ok... that sounds pretty good.... Which is why I asked. reasonable.... but that does not make usury lending a good thing. what you just described... is the opposite of usury lending... And thats good..... My issue... is that when we first buy the home.. we pay double, due to interest payments......
which is against gods law. as I describe here.... http://mosheh.org/A-New-Deal_2012.html

lending is fine... but loan sharking is ungodly.. literally.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

My mortgage rate is 3.9% which I feel is pretty darn good deal.

I am looking for a new car now (mine has 174,000 miles on it) and there are plenty of 0% financing offers out there.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

I cannot respond to your last post.. so I respond here... As i said... I propose to reorganize banks, to eliminate their risks, so they can serve the people instead of robbing them... because as it is.. they do not lend their own money... they middle man a transaction.... as such... they should not making money by doing nothing but shuffling papers.... that is all they do... and yet the people... all have to pay double for they simple service... a service which should not rob us all.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

I do not consider myself robbed. I am happy to pay the interest to live in this house that I could not otherwise afford. It really is a great system. It is like insurance. With insurance everyone pays in but once in a while someone's house burns down. The insurance company pays for the house that burned down. Just a middle man transaction bt very effective.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

Well... I'd say... for personal needs.. like a car... or home.. it should all be 0%.... thats my point.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 6 years ago

Cars and homes are completely different scenarios.

There is an incentive for a car manufacturer to offer 0% since it allows them to sell more of the cars they manufacture. The car manufacturer makes it's profit by selling cars.

There is no incentive for a bank to loan you $200,000 to buy a house from me. The bank did not manufacture that house and is not selling the house. The bank makes money on the mortgage interest. Allowing you to pay them back over 30 years at 3.9% is pretty generous.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

Every thing that you find despicable with the current state of freedom I, too, am not happy with. But how we got here is another story.

I believe gov't is a servant of the nation. So when gov't begins to take my freedoms, I have to ask myself who in the nation is prospering from me having my freedoms impinged. Less drug use equals greater hours worked and more profits for pharmaceutical companies. Also, it meant more Mexicans in Texan Jails and more profits to William Randolf Hearst. And you keep saying they can take your property, but nine times out of ten property is taken from people by people not in gov't.

So my point is: That when gov't becomes overbearing, I have to ask who in the society benefits, and answering that question, I believe, leads me closer to the real culprit. Also just reading bills and cross referencing the bills with who financed the sponsors, shows who is really the taker of freedoms.

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

Are you willing then to rise up with me, to fix it.... because I was running for President to do exactly that. We do not have to take this crap... we can change the government, but it requires a mass movement... like OWS... it needs real goals.. and real balls to make change. I am working to do that... one way or another. If you will not help me.. i will keep trying... regardless, because I am mad as hell, and I refuse to take it. Please consider my solution plan...-- http://mosheh.org/A-New-Deal_2012.html

I may die tomorrow...if so... I hope other have the balls to pick up the effort, and have the balls to never give up.

[-] -1 points by TryingForAnOpenMind (-358) from Yonkers, NY 6 years ago

word up joe joe.

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (3084) from Waterville, NY 6 years ago

The Media-Captured-The Courts-Captured-The Professional Classes-Captured-The Electoral Process-Captured-The Regulatory Agencies-Captured-The Politicians-Captured-The Military-Captured-Academia-Captured-The Foundations-Born in Captivity-The Scientific Establishment-Captured-The Intelligensia-Captured-All Agricultural and Industrial Infrastructure-Captured-All Communications Infrastructure Except Messenger Pigeons-Captured-The only thing I know of that is not captured is-#OWS

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 6 years ago

yup,. damn straight brother,. they, 'them', and "those people",. have created an unstoppable monster of a system of social control,. and it does work quite well,. you do have to respect the human ability to find ways to manipulate our fellow humans,. the system we are caught in is amazingly impressive,. in it's intricate controls over peoples minds. sadly those pulling the stings are so blinded by greed that they fail to see the downfall THEY have lead the world into,. . truly sad and more than a little bit pathetic. all around pathetic! those manipulating for personal gain,. and the rest sucked in by such a simple shuck-and-jive. and for so long too,. are we really so dumb? or is there a bit more to this story? do the evil greedy pay in the end? that would be justice.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5909) 6 years ago

Yes, people really are so dumb and yes, the evil greedy will pay in the end when everything collapses and everyone suffers together.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 6 years ago

true that,. I am more interested in a jury of their peers, in seeing society use some mechanism that is there, or is created, for this use, to HOLD THEM TO ACCOUNT.

We do have prosecutors with various powers already vested in them, and yet no one is being brought up on charges?,. not for 9/11, not for 2008, not for any of this sht they keep dropping on the world,. if one thing is clear it is that the representative systems of social organisation have failed terribly, individual human corruptibility is clearly a major problem. If we could all have out voices heard, all have an active and actual say in how we move forward, corruptions will be called out more readily, and we can deal with those that need correcting.

[-] 1 points by LeoYo (5909) 6 years ago

But we don't all want it. The vast majority of us just wants to be left alone to make it to another day. Liberty, as well as justice, requires collective responsibility, that is why most people ignore it.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

justice is the health of the people

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 6 years ago

The best revenge is Living Well.

[+] -4 points by gwirionedd (-369) 6 years ago

a stitch in time saves nine

80% of your postings to this forum came straight out of fortune cookies, Matt, and there's no world-changers in the rest. If you're being paid to provide filler here, well done. If not, you might want to think about how you want to be remembered when it's all over...

[-] -3 points by gwirionedd (-369) 6 years ago

Twas brillig, and the slithy toves. Did gyre and gimble in the wabe...

If that's all you got, Matt, keep crackin' the cookies and collectin' your check.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 6 years ago

should prolly bugger off for a bit

[-] -3 points by gwirionedd (-369) 6 years ago

a coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (5843) 6 years ago

Good Post

[-] 1 points by MoshehThezion (98) 6 years ago

Freedom was lost in 1933..... from --- http://mosheh.org/message-for-people.html

Summary : The American people got robbed in 1933, by tricks, coersion, force, and lies... tricked into giving up true constitutional freedom, in exchange for debt slavery with benefits.

Did you know, that....

1) The definition of a Debt Slave, is someone who is lent money, and then must work to pay off the loan, and while they may be free to run around, they must always go back to work, and pay either a percentage of their labor, or all of it, to pay that debt until it is paid off. Sadly, in 1933, FDR gave the Federal Reserve to major Bankers, by way of making it a stock corporation with multiple layers of complex rules, which effectively distances those who gain from the Federal Reserve, from the Federal Reserve itself, and put up the people and lands, as collateral on the loan of our own Dollars, and in doing so, enslaved all the working people and business people, to pay the never ending debt, which is literally, nation wide debt slavery of the entire nations people. (You!!) (And via the I.M.F. and World Bank, the entire world.) (Debt currency= permanent debt=permanent debt put on the people = debt slavery) We as Americans, are not supposed to be debt slaves to fake fiat currency, and are not supposed to suffer inflation and pay our taxes to profit foreign or domestic investors, and that is exactly what the Founding Fathers tried to prevent by establishing the Constitution as a means to protect the people from exactly that!!! The worst thing FDR did with unlimited Emergency War powers, was he gave the Federal Reserve directly into the hands of Bankers and Corporations (making the Federal Reserve a private corporation owned by American and potentially international stock holders), which provided a loan, and allowed the U.S. to continue to operate in bankruptcy using a new form of DEBT currency, which then directly enslaved the American people to pay that debt, using 14th amendment citizenship, Emergency War powers, and creating a statute court system by which to enforce that excess taxation at the point of a gun, and threat of prison. This was done using the Trading with the Enemy Act (1917) (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917) which was passed and which defined, regulated and so punished trading with enemies, who were as such, then required by that act to be licensed by the government to do business. And The National Banking System Act (Public Law 73-1, 73rd Congress, Session I, Chapter 1, March 9, 1933), Executive Proclamation 2038 (March 6, 1933), Executive Proclamation 2039 (March 9, 1933), and Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111 and 6260 prove that in 1933, the United States Government formed under the executive privilege of the original martial rule went bankrupt, and a new state of national emergency (1933) was declared under which United States citizens were named as the enemy to the government and the banking system as per the provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Act. Which is why the American people are forced to get licences, and permits to do just about anything, like go fishing, run a business, or drive a car, etc.. etc..

-Mosheh Thezion

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 6 years ago

Much of the problem is that we let them do it to us. With some innovation, and discipline and yes some work, one can step away, or at least partially step away from this corrupt corporate consumer system we are faced with. But that means throwing away your your cell phone, disconnecting your cable TV, not shopping at Walmart, quit playing the stock market, throw away the credit card, and not eating at fast food chains, plant a garden, raise some chickens, do business exclusively with locals, ride a bike to work...as a start.... Anyone up to it?

[-] 0 points by establishmentsucks (4) 6 years ago

Freedom to choose between two bought out parties




[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 6 years ago

What I find interesting about your post being true is this. If you look at the commercials on television the vast majority are focused towards the "I want it all now crowd".

The credit card hype where you can get 20,000 air miles for a vacation that you can't afford.

The "feel good drinks" that give you energy for 5 hours

The "fashion clothing" that you must have so you look good.

The list goes on and on and the vast majority of the X and Y along with the melineum generation fall into that category.

So, stop complaining about what big business is doing to our society. Our society wants it even though they can't pay for it and complain to because they can't afford to have it.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

This goes so much larger than what you believe, this doesn't even have to do with consumerism (you can't have consumers without jobs) This has to do with manipulating scarcity; forced markets in which the average person has no choice they become reliant. Imagine this scenario - all food is made with chemicals and all the farm land has been bought by a handful of companies now you have no option but to eat it or starve there is no land to grow your own, they won't sell, they own all the seeds. This reminds me when you see people in the third world drinking from polluted water it's because that's all there is and they can't afford to fix it they don't have any means to fix it. The people who can fix it will not because people who have no power and have no choice will do it because it is all there is, and they will be given no more. When choices become so limited how is it any different than allowing a government to control it? It is quite a different thing we have happening now. Our government is compiled and made up of people who run corporations and mega monopolies. Our government is the middle man between our money and them. Can't vote out a private company and can't get the private companies out of the political process. They are given direct access to it and corporations have learned that if they are part of the government either by boards or lobby firms whatever, they can limit the market so it benefits them limits options for us, and makes us RELIANT. We're the patsies in this little game, their little consumers, and their purse string. Opposition to Occupy talks about government as though it is not corporations running the government - but they do - which is why they can't get their lobby or super fund money off of it. It's not really a hard concept in perfect example: large farm companies want to patent seeds - they challenge the patent law that says they can't patent life - they sway courts with expensive lawyers, they grease government pockets to change laws - they now own patents on seeds - they now own the market. But that's not enough - they find their seed in small farm fields because it's blown in from the wind - they sue for patent infringement - they win - they now collect a portion of the farmers profit - they set precedent in the court. They kill all the small farms - they partner with all the large ones - Americans can't grow their own food - they are RELIANT on the corporation. No longer free or able to choose. This is happening in every imaginable market - food, communications, fuel, pharmaceutical, medicine, insurance, jobs, anything you can think of - the ultimate goal is to make you RELIANT. They want as little choice as possible, as little competition. They want to turn us into slaves - all while being applauded as job creators and as providers. A frog being boiled slowly - but freedom is harder to get back once it's been lost. Many of us now are feeling the burn - you will too but by the time you do it may be too late. Be careful of viewing the government and corporations as separate entities. They have mergered. Vote with your wallet - choose where you shop pay attention - buy as little as possible - shop small stay away from large corporations. Invest not in any market bu in the future and our freedom - kill the monopoly - pay a little more now - and we will pay a far less price later... support main street flush wallstreet. Get bribery out of politics and end political appointments. Vote in only politicians who vow not to take a dime from Wall Street out all the rest whatever their party.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 6 years ago

I agree. If we at least started the ball rolling of electing normal people, we could at least say we tried when the SHTF momenet occurs.

[-] 0 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 6 years ago

The Sky is falling. The sky is falling.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

The devil's greatest achievement is to convince the world he doesn't exist.

[-] 0 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 6 years ago

Number two on the list would be a life of fear.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

Above that I would put the cowardice to look any deeper for fear of what you may discover. Occupy had the courage to look deeper and knows the dragon they are trying to slay but are still willing to try - that is not fear, that's a direct challenge.

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 6 years ago

Yes Sir.That is one hundred percent correct.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

I like corporations. They are just a group of people that join together in order to achieve some great thing. Like Google, or Apple, or the Church of Latter Day Saints (Yes, they are incorporated). The good news is that if a corporation does a lousy job competitors eat their lunch and they go out of business (unless we let the Gov bail them out). Government, on the other hand, can go on day after day producing the same crappy product, charge outrageous prices, deliver poor service, and continue in business forever. Or what seems like forever.

BTW, OWS was incorporated in October, 2011

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

What happens once corporations infiltrate the government? - I'd say a line has long been crossed - what happens when the politicians are just puppets and corporations are moving the strings? You can either cut the strings or you can wait for a new puppet performing the same movements as their masters to get on stage. Let's cut the strings.

[-] -1 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

US corporations, owned by and employing US citizens, are served by the US Gov. It is the duty and purpose of the Gov to serve the people, not the other way round. Many US cities and towns are corporations, are they not masters that the Fed Gov must serve?

[-] 2 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

I don't want to follow a bouncing ball - you're trying to cloud truth - the truth is we all know politicians are no longer working for the people - who are they working for? The cousin John they hired to sit on his fat ass with no qualifications making an inflated salary - or a contractor who they hired for a ridiculous fee to do a job for the state - that company who's going to hire said politician when his term is up - that company where said politicians stocks are held. Congress has the biggest insider trading ring there is. It is totally corrupt on all levels - everything they do is a ploy to make themselves wealthier. It has nothing to do with the people (unless you're a relative or connected) They are using tax payer money to do it all. There are no checks and balances - they've all been wiped away. But to think that corporations are somehow separate from politicians who do you think the politicians are - ever heard of revolving door politics? Corporation needs representation - pick an employee to run for office - employee gets in office probably from the billlion dollar propaganda super fund created for him - elected hiree makes laws - finishes term - gets nice corporate cushy job (probably makes CEO) ...goes back does a few more favors - hires cousin John - get an even cushier job ... revolve revolve - When you hear a candidate is an ex CEO - don't vote for them - they are corrupt - they are using the position not for public service but for corporate / family / crony capitalism (Thanks to your money)

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

So what is the answer?

One solution is to limit the power of Gov. If they have no power who cares if they take bribes.

How do you limit the power of Gov (or any institution)? Cut off the money supply.

Support any and all tax cuts, elect pols willing to pass a balanced budget law (like most states), and return the power and liberty to the citizens.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

If you reduce taxes - corporations will now lower salaries to compensate (status quo maintained with inflation and whoops our country starts to look like a third world with everything becoming run-down and ugly and schools becoming worse than they are now) 2. The only way to limit the power of the government (which is now run and controlled by corporations - is to limit the power of corporations) - and now we've come back around again. I mean are you at least following me on that? A caste system is always born from corrupt systems - we need to attack the corruption at the source (you could argue it's the politicians - but who are the politicians? They don't pop out of thin air - someone wants them there - and the people are losing to the corporations.

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

How does cutting taxes cause corps to lower salaries?

Corps are owned by people, managed by people, and employ people . Why do you want to take power from the people?

[-] 2 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

product prices will go up (since people have the extra in their pocket ...so will interest rates ) they'll find one way or another to get your money you may get your tax dollars back but you'll pay in other ways - again you have to kill the corruption first

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

I agree with you about the corruption, but Gov corruption is the greater danger. There are too few checks on Gov power (and the number is decreasing).

At least corp power is subject to market forces and Gov laws. Corrupt politicians can do damage that lasts for decades.

[-] 6 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

The number one check on government in a free society is a free press - we don't have that anymore that is the number one reason democracy is failing - the enemy not only owns the government, it owns the media. When crimes aren't reported or investigated by a third unconnected party - you've lost one of the greatest checks on our freedom. The news won't report against their clients - they make their money from their advertising dollars - billions. I often wonder why so much money is spent by corporations on advertising even in one of the worst economic times (if people don't have money to spend, they can't spend it no matter what they see in an ad) I think it speaks more to the control it gives them in our society - the control to threaten the media if they begin to go against them and sway public opinion against them and expose their criminal actions. We don't hear it in the news, because they own the news and what they don't want you to hear, you won't hear.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33636) from Coon Rapids, MN 6 years ago

Also provides a feeling of normalcy - everything is all right folks - or by gosh you would be hearing about it - don't we do emergency broadcasting tests?

[-] 3 points by Odin (583) 6 years ago

I agree that not having a free press to "check" government wrong doing is one a big problem, and has a lot to do with why we are in this mess. One of the real pluses now though is that the younger generation knows how screwed up the corporate-owned media is, and have turned away from it. The older generation for the most part still has not caught on to this fact though.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

There is a lot of alternative media (like this forum) that are available to counter other biased media sources. We also benefit today from the rapid spread of info and direct social media. I am encouraged about democracy in the world. It is enjoyed in some form by more people than ever before.

[-] 4 points by elf3 (4045) 6 years ago

Corporations are trying to regulate the internet (the eventual goal is to get rid of the pc and force you to pay a subscription for cloud service and to pay for access to internet "channels" also to give major corporations faster speed while slowing other services down based upon what you pay for your website. Not only are they fixing the market - they're going to fix all communication and access to information based on your ability to pay.


[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

If gov't products are so lousy, why are there more people needing them then there are using private ones? Here is a chicken or egg question. Does business make products because people want them or do made products get bought because they are made? I believe it is the latter, but common sense seems to believe it is the former. If markets were really predicated on demand then why is advertising such a lucrative industry?

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

I work in an industry that has a mix of custom (a made to order deli sandwich) and standard products ( a cheese burger). The standard products are bought because they are familiar and available. McDonald's food is not very good, but it is safe. The folks that buy it know exactly what it is, there is no fear, and no work. The deli sandwich, put together at the customer's direction, is risky. Particularly if it comes from a new and un-tried place.

Advertising is 30% brand focused, 10 % product focused, and 60 % wasted money.

Companies spend money on advertising (not really that much actually) because their PR firm has convinced them that their ads are all in the effective 40% category (funny how some CEO's can be persuaded by the very firm that they hired to persuade others).

BTW, people do not need Government. Do you wake up every day trying to find someone to govern you?

Government should be the use of leverage when it makes sense. It makes sense for everyone in your neighborhood to hire one guy with a truck to come by once a week, pick up your trash and take it to the dump. That method is a lot cheaper, faster, and less smelly than each individual trudging down to the landfill with soggy dripping garbage in the trunk of their car. It makes sense.

That is what government should do. It should make sense.

[-] 3 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

I guess in the context you describe gov't, political battles are over the justification of what is considered sensible for gov't to do. and what should be left to individual means and discretion. To your belief that advertising is wasted money, I believe advertising is just as efficient as propaganda. Both are types of emotional appeals. They only work when they make you feel guilty, mad, embarrassed, lonely, inadequate or any of the other emotions that make us act erratic. I guess I am not convinced advertising is as inconsequential as you believe. I'll say it is 30 percent wasted money. If advertising is as useless as you believe then super PACS are wasting money.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2638) 6 years ago

"Paying" for advertising, especially in politics, can also be a fancy way of passing money on to your friends who also do whatever else besides advertising.

I always wondered why political campaigns cost so much. What is all that money really being used for?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

it almost seems like a ploy to keep people of little means out of the political debate.

[-] 1 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

Some advertising is effective (18 to 25 year old males, for example). Most ads are not.

It is not so surprising that folks trained in the art of persuasion are able to convince company execs to siphon off profits for a gamble with pretty poor odds.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

That is an interesting argument. Advertisers have hood winked the brightest and most deserving. Kinda disparages the belief that the job creators are "all that."

[-] 0 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

Well it is not so hard to convince someone of something that they already want to believe, regardless of how smart they are..

Do you believe that the goal of a for-profit corporation is to create jobs?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 6 years ago

Nope, but they love to hear their politicians using such a line. And i imagine they are known to use it whenever they ask for their own personal loop hole.

[-] 2 points by 1sealyon (434) 6 years ago

Can't blame them for trying.