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Forum Post: Free Market Schools, Not Very Good

Posted 3 months ago on April 21, 2014, 10:35 p.m. EST by shooz (17997)
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39 Comments

39 Comments


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[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

oh, and by the way - we agree! free market schools are not good. socialistic public schools are the way to go - pay teachers better, fund their pensions properly and fund the schools properly.

[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

you have made my main point here shooz - thanks - both parties favor charter schools since that is where they get their money. Obama, Cuomo and Emanuel (and many more) favor free market, union busting charter schools - and just for kicks ask a teacher what she thinks of "race to the top" - just old wine in new bottles - no child left behind.

[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

By dianeravitch March 30, 2014 //

“Yes, yes, yes. Lately Democratic operatives have been moaning and groaning about lack of excitement among their voters. Supposedly this is a law of nature. Democrats just don’t get excited about midterms. Yet, “school reform” is demobilizing important elements of that base vote. This is one of the most vibrant web sites around these days, and unfortunately, we have to fight not only the GOP but also our “own” party – from President Obama to Arne Duncan to Rahm Emanuel to Pat Quinn (who couldn’t wait to make Paul Vallas his Lt. Gov. Running mate, within days of Vallas being run out of Bridgeport, CT on a rail). “Stop doing things to harm your base voters. What a concept! Maybe then we’d vote. Don’t you realize you’re going to need every vote you can get?” An independent investigation found that nearly half of Chicago’s charter schools are under-enrolled, but the mayor-controlled school board plans to open more. This will drain more students and resources from the public schools. Mayor Emanuel hopes to destroy public education as his legacy to the city. The mayor’s hand-picked board will vote tomorrow on authorizing 31 new charters.

[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim May 6 through May 12, 2012, as National Charter Schools Week. I commend our Nation's charter schools, teachers, and administrators, and I call on States and communities to support charter schools and the students they serve.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 2 months ago

no wait I'm confused

you don't like charter schools

you don't like President Obama

or you are just schilling for that modern day prophet, Ted Cruz . . .

should that be Profit?

[-] -3 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

Where have I EVER said that libe(R)tarian infection was limited to one party?

What I said was it infects the States first and it tends to do so by infecting the (R)eplican'ts.

Now let's hear from YOU how coupon (voucher) schools were promoted in your State.

Keep in mind the item on the list is from 1980.

Who ran your schools in 1980?

[-] 5 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

not sure when you have said that but it certainly is the implication of what you write and what you REMOVE! now I am not sure you know this but I do not dance to your tune. so when you play by the rules I will - how about that. lots of questions you need to answer before I respond to your list - you are like moses with the tablets here! answer one question - do both parties worship at the alter of the "free market" (not at all free but that is another matter and I doubt I can get you to respond to one point so I will leave that alone) - do both parties embrace free market schools and get huge funding from the hedge fund boys who advocate for them? now I would love to engage in a real dialogue with you - to find out what you really think. I doubt that we are too far apart - I imagine we agree on most things but I am a bit to radical for you. I have told you many times my wife (who you have banned for no reason!!) is a democratic party elected official and works sometimes for our rep - Pallone - he is a good guy. but we can never have a real conversation shooz - why is that - seems to me mostly because you call me a liar and all sorts of shit for no reason. I can't figure it out - maybe someone here is brighter than I am and can tell me.

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[+] -4 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

Implications, are all you've ever had.

That's what makes conversation so difficult with you.

When I show you literal truth, all you do is imply

Yet if one were to apply implications to what you've said?

What could be implied from that.

Taking into account your above reply.

Fact free, I might add.

One could imply that you are at the very least, an apologist for the libe(R)tarians, if not full fledged one yourself.

Would you like to look at other items from the list that Bernie has provided, since you've found this one too complicated to actually reply to, and so mounted a personal attack on me?

There's a lot of them to choose from.

[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

let me point out the obvious first - the system (that would be BOTH "free market" capitalist parties) is designed (by Madison mostly) to "protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." but you are a sensitive one - no? personal attack on you - poor boy. so what exactly was the attack - when I pointed out the FACT that you remove shit that should not be removed or maybe that fact that you banned my wife fro no reason. those are not attacks on you. I have not looked at your list and do not plan to - tell me again why should I? as for the implication of what I say - let me spell it out one more time - exactly what I think about the two ruling parties - no I think I will let noam speak for me (I like to do that in case you didn't notice) - here is noam -

"Well, Democrats and Republicans aren’t a category—the Republicans and Democrats differ. Like on the rare occasions when I vote–and they are pretty rare–sometimes I vote for Democrats, sometimes for Republicans, sometimes for somebody else. It’s not a sharp split. They are two factions of the same party. We have a one-party state with two somewhat different factions with a lot of overlap; the business party has a couple of factions. You find some difference between them. I wouldn’t say there’s no difference on the average. So what should you do in that case? Well, like everything, it’s your own choice. Do you want to live in a democratic society or do you want to live in the society we have, which remember is not a democratic society and is not intended to be.

If you take a course in political theory here, I’m sure they’ll teach you that the United States is not a democracy. It’s what is called, in the technical literature, a polyarchy. That’s the term invented by the leading democratic theorist, Yale professor Robert Dahl, but the idea is old, its goes way back to James Madison and the foundation of the Constitution. A polyarchy is system in which power resides in the hands of those who manage the wealth of the nation, the responsible class of men. And the rest of the population is fragmented, distracted, allowed to participate every couple years—they’re allowed to come and say “yes, thank you, why don’t you continue for another four years.” They have a little choice among the responsible men, the wealth of the nation. That’s the way the country was founded. It was founded on the principle explained by Madison at the Constitutional Convention that the primary goal of government is to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. And then the Constitution was designed to sort of ensure that. There’s been a lot struggle about it over the years, a lot of victories have been won by the public, so it’s not the same as it was two centuries ago. But that remains. That remains the elite ideal. And it’s a constant struggle. And most of the population is well aware of

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[+] -4 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

stop your denial.

How many in your State and who pushed, supported and enacted them?

“We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission."

“We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”

“We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”

“We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”

“We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.”

“We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.”

“We oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes.”

“We support the eventual repeal of all taxation.”

“As an interim measure, all criminal and civil sanctions against tax evasion should be terminated immediately.”

“We support repeal of all law which impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws.”

“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended"

“We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”

“We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”

“We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”

“We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”

“We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”

“We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”

“We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”

“We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”

“We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”

“We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”

“We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals."

“We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”

“We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”

“We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”

“We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”

Noam will also be speaking in the Brainwashed in America movie.

Will you be quoting him in that context?

[-] 3 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

is that supposed to be a response to what I wrote to you? you have been conversing with the dog boy too much. he is incoherent - so are you.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 2 months ago

I understood the comment perfectly well. The first line is a very short, three word sentence, complete in every detail. It is in sum an admonition from shooz to you to stop lying

  • an impossible task, I am sure

The second line is a question, and it refers to all of the successive lines in the comment with the exception of the final two. These lines are the hopes and aspirations of that dreaded kochtopus - as the source material clearly indicates and which the members of ALEC will not refute.

You could make no sense of it? Too bad.

flip mutherfuker flip

[-] -3 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

There is no response to you flip.

All you have are the repeated attempts to restart the soap opera.

That list, which you and many others have refused to respond to, in any meaningful way, is the elephant in the room.

It explains so much.

And you, so little.

so how many have been enacted in your State?

[-] 2 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

answer my questions and I will answer yours- very common way to discuss things - and as I said - you are stupid. that is the only explanation for what goes on here - time to take it to the next level

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

Call me names one more time.

I'm so sick of your soap opera, I could puke.

You can tell that asshole Odin the same thing.

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[-] 2 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

I didn't call you any name at all - I just pointed out an obvious fact. we all know it here- I think there are only two who don't. not sure what you are trying to accomplish but if it is making ows less effective and educating fewer people then you are doing a hell of a job - brownie.

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[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

Denial will gain you absolutely nothing.

Now would you like to discuss the "list" like an actual adult?

[-] 1 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

you mean like "I am rubber and you are glue" - adult like that??

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 2 months ago

YES! It was in response to your petulant name calling and insults.

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[-] 1 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

BRIAN JONES: Well, I just want to respond to that for a minute. We have more than a dozen charter school CEOs in New York City who make more than the chancellor, and the chancellor oversees over 1,600 schools. Some of these charter school CEOs have just two schools and make nearly half-a-million dollars. So the idea that some people aren’t in this for the possibilities for personal gain, I think, is just absolutely not true.

The other thing is that it’s important to understand the private nature of charter schools. ......................................Morgan Brittany: Dig a little deeper however and you can see that both Democrats at the center of this firestorm are not really looking out for the best interests of the children.Even though I favor Cuomo’s side, I found that he has major ambitions to run for President in 2016 and is courting money from Wall Street and hedge-fund managers who favor Charter schools.They have lined his pockets with over $400,000 in contributions and the number rises even higher when you add in bankers, philanthropists and real estate moguls who support education and Charter school causes.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

that sounds like deliberate sabotage in the interest of economic principle and outright corruption.

It also sounds quite repelican.

I don't know what the answers are - but I do know that with core subjects, English, history, math, there are two basic inputs - the teacher and the learning material.

The learning material - the texts - should be of sufficient quality that any individual capable of graduate level English comprehension can learn and apply the lessons.

I've seen texts that do not meet that standard.

Anyone should be able to walk into a library anywhere in the country and borrow a physics book, read and understand the material based entirely on the text alone.

The people engaged in sabotage of the educational system, from publishers to bureaucrats, should be shot.

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

No one noticed.

It's on the "list".

“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended".

( libe(R)tarian platform)

Yet another one that has been fairly successful for them through the use of propaganda.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

No one noticed.

Silly fukers. I was thinking earlier today that the high cost of a college education is proof that today we are engaged - and committed to - extracting profit from the future - and what can this be if not a recognition that civilization itself has an expiration date that is soon to come due . . .

I mean, if that is the case, why don't the silly fukers just shoot themselves in the head and leave the rest of us alone to figure out how not to loose the best that humanity has to offer?

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

There's no profit in it.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

no profit in what? In repelicans shooting themselves in the head? I'm sure none of us will have to strain ourselves to any significant degree to fix this little dilema . . .

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

who will the Koch's turn to, if the (R)epelican'ts turn away?

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

the Koch's!? Can't we get them at the front of the line? I mean, don't they have a natural inclination to be first among their peers? I'm sure we can find some way to . . . umm . . . capitalize . . .

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

Education, like global warming, are two of the most important Occupy issues there are. Notice who doesn't have much to say about either.

And the Koch's, are active in negative ways on both issues.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

Did I mention HIstory?

NO'

I did not mention history . . .

And Liberal Arts no longer exists in this country in any practical sense. I wonder what that means . . .

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13676) from South Burlington, VT 3 months ago

there is really no excuse - math, science, English - each of these subjects all incorporate some fairly inflexible rules. The secret to teaching each of them must lie in finding the best method of conveying these rules that underlie each discipline in a way that ensures the learners enjoy the lessons as far as possible to both prevent adverse reactions to the lessons and to keep them engaged in the lessons.

The best methods of achieving such aims must be evident if only the research is undertaken.

There is no reason to create new math texts every so often, not when the material itself - the rules - remain the same. Identify the best demonstrations of those rules, and let them be incorporated in the lesson plan henceforth and forever more.

But no.

We want to sell new texts.

We want to know who the brightest mathematical minds are, and we must know this while they are young, that we may identify the best uses to which these minds may be put - even if that means the sacrifice of an entire generation to a status of mathematical ignorance to achieve our aims.

We will preside as the gate keepers to your children's future hopes and dreams, and you will pay just for the chance that prosperity might be theirs.

fukers

[+] -4 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

Hmmm, not a word from the so called non-partisans.

A nice, non-partisan issue too.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17737) 3 months ago

I'll chance my arm and hazard a guess that some others are minded like me ... in that replying to you or 'TheDog' is simply making a rod for our own backs because it will descend into b-s and swearing in very short order. Nevertheless, I append for others :

What can educators and others concerned about the future of higher education do to make sure it is not colonized by corporate and other antidemocratic interests ?

First, educators and others need to figure out how to defend more vigorously higher education as a public good and how central it is in producing the formative culture necessary to educate young people to be critical and engaged agents willing to fight to deepen and expand the promises of a substantive democracy.

Second, we need to address what the optimum conditions are for educators, artists, activists, etc., to perform their work in an autonomous and critical fashion. In other words, we need to think through the conditions that make academic labor fruitful, engaging and relevant.

Third, we need to turn the growing army of temporary workers now swelling the ranks of the academy into full-time, permanent staff. The presence of so many part-time employees is scandalous and both weakens the power of the faculty and exploits them.

Fourth, we need to educate students to be critical agents, to learn how to take risks, engage in thoughtful dialogue and address what it means to be socially responsible.

Fifth, educators and others must address pedagogy as the practice of freedom. Pedagogy is not about training; it is about educating people to be self-reflective, critical and self-conscious about their relationship with others and to know something about their relationship with the larger world. Pedagogy in this sense not only provides important thoughtful and intellectual competencies; it also enables people to act effectively upon the societies in which they live.

Sixth, educators and others need a new political language with broader narratives that address the totality of society rather than focus on single-based issue politics. I am not against identity politics or single-based issues, but we need to find ways to connect these issues to more encompassing, global narratives about democracy so we can recognize their strengths and limitations in building broad-based social movements. In short, it is imperative that as educators and socially responsible intellectuals, artists, parents and concerned citizens, we must act for justice and against injustice. And such a call to pursue the truth with a small "t" must be shaped by informed judgments, self-reflection, searing forms of critique, civic courage and a deep commitment to education as central to the struggle for democracy and social change. Needless to say, we need to find new ways to connect education to the struggle for a democratic future, which is now being undermined in ways that were unimaginable 30 years ago.

Opposing the forces of domination is important, but it does not go far enough. We must move beyond a language of pointless denunciations and offer instead a language that moves forward with the knowledge, skills, and social relations necessary for the creation of new modes of agency, social movements, and democratic economic and social policies. We need to open up the realm of human possibility, recognize that history is open, that justice is never complete, and that democracy can never be fully settled.

I fervently believe in the need for both critique and hope, and have faith that the left can develop the public spheres that make such possibilities possible, whether they be schools, classrooms, workshops, newspapers, online journals, community colleges or other spaces where knowledge, power, ethics, and justice merge to create new subjectivities, new modes of civic courage, and new hope for the future.

~

Don't bother replying as if you do I probably won't reply because I'm VERY pissed off at U 2 ... must be the overblown, hubristic, bombastic, stadium-rock numbers .. I should know - I used to be a fan !!! ~{;-)

spero meliora ...

[-] 1 points by flip (5207) 2 months ago

By dianeravitch March 30, 2014 //

“Yes, yes, yes. Lately Democratic operatives have been moaning and groaning about lack of excitement among their voters. Supposedly this is a law of nature. Democrats just don’t get excited about midterms. Yet, “school reform” is demobilizing important elements of that base vote. This is one of the most vibrant web sites around these days, and unfortunately, we have to fight not only the GOP but also our “own” party – from President Obama to Arne Duncan to Rahm Emanuel to Pat Quinn (who couldn’t wait to make Paul Vallas his Lt. Gov. Running mate, within days of Vallas being run out of Bridgeport, CT on a rail). “Stop doing things to harm your base voters. What a concept! Maybe then we’d vote. Don’t you realize you’re going to need every vote you can get?” An independent investigation found that nearly half of Chicago’s charter schools are under-enrolled, but the mayor-controlled school board plans to open more. This will drain more students and resources from the public schools. Mayor Emanuel hopes to destroy public education as his legacy to the city. The mayor’s hand-picked board will vote tomorrow on authorizing 31 new charters.

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17737) 3 months ago

It would appear not ! UGG !! Ugg, mug-ugg !!!

WTF is it with your points btw ?! I don't dig !!

Oh, how come u joined OWS so early btw ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5vCpXVbTS4

Their 1st single ... back when they rocked :-)

pax ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17737) 3 months ago

I'm NOT chuffed at all tho' !!! D'u reckon that foreigners are NOT liked around here ?!! Sheeesh !

multum in parvo ...

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[-] -1 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

This is related to voucher financed, charter schools in what way?

I can and have shown it's direct relationship to libe(R)tarian policy.

Chances are, without much trouble, I could also demonstrate a similar relationship to EVERYTHING, currently being called neoliberal, or neoconservative, worldwide, by pretty much anyone using the terms.

All the Gish Gallops are a distraction from that simple fact..

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (17737) 3 months ago

It was connected to - you know ... edjumification but I'm cowed by your wisdom and knowledge ! How dare I have the temerity to reply to you ?!! WTF was I really thinking - when you regard everything as a challenge and personal afront here ?!!! Reckon you need a break ? I'm sure 'TheDog' would happily mod for you in your absence. I've NO idea what ''Gish Gallops'' are btw - but do they come with chips (fries) ?

vale ....

[-] -2 points by shooz (17997) 3 months ago

You can google, Gish Gallop.

Following on the actual topic.

Of

“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended". ( libe(R)tarian platform)

No one mentioned this, but no one cared much about my Michigan Matters thread, other than those who've been chased away.

But.....being one of the first States affected by the Koch/ALEC machine.

This ruling applies.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/04/22/3429490/us-supreme-court-upholds-michigan-affirmative-action-ban/

Note what is said in the dissent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014785706

There's links there to the full paper, but the gist is in the link provided.

Here's another one.

"“We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.” (libe(R)tarian platform)

And a current iteration of it's progress.

I learned about it, from a local protest.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20140423/postal-workers-to-protest-usps-privatization-at-clawson-staples-store

But it's bigger.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024862463

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (17737) 3 months ago

Re. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop - ahhh, I see ! Very Interesting !! You mean like u do to bw :

Excerpt : ''Examples are most commonly found in "list" articles that may claim to show "100 reasons for" something, or "50 reasons against" something.'' ... Oh, you mean like 'a list of things to abhor' you mean ?!!! Ooops !! I'll look at some of your links now ... maybe !

ad iudicium ...