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Forum Post: Free Market Schools, Not Very Good

Posted 8 months ago on April 21, 2014, 10:35 p.m. EST by shoozTroll (17632)
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39 Comments

39 Comments


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[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

oh, and by the way - we agree! free market schools are not good. socialistic public schools are the way to go - pay teachers better, fund their pensions properly and fund the schools properly.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

you have made my main point here shooz - thanks - both parties favor charter schools since that is where they get their money. Obama, Cuomo and Emanuel (and many more) favor free market, union busting charter schools - and just for kicks ask a teacher what she thinks of "race to the top" - just old wine in new bottles - no child left behind.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

By dianeravitch March 30, 2014 //

“Yes, yes, yes. Lately Democratic operatives have been moaning and groaning about lack of excitement among their voters. Supposedly this is a law of nature. Democrats just don’t get excited about midterms. Yet, “school reform” is demobilizing important elements of that base vote. This is one of the most vibrant web sites around these days, and unfortunately, we have to fight not only the GOP but also our “own” party – from President Obama to Arne Duncan to Rahm Emanuel to Pat Quinn (who couldn’t wait to make Paul Vallas his Lt. Gov. Running mate, within days of Vallas being run out of Bridgeport, CT on a rail). “Stop doing things to harm your base voters. What a concept! Maybe then we’d vote. Don’t you realize you’re going to need every vote you can get?” An independent investigation found that nearly half of Chicago’s charter schools are under-enrolled, but the mayor-controlled school board plans to open more. This will drain more students and resources from the public schools. Mayor Emanuel hopes to destroy public education as his legacy to the city. The mayor’s hand-picked board will vote tomorrow on authorizing 31 new charters.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim May 6 through May 12, 2012, as National Charter Schools Week. I commend our Nation's charter schools, teachers, and administrators, and I call on States and communities to support charter schools and the students they serve.

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Where have I EVER said that libe(R)tarian infection was limited to one party?

What I said was it infects the States first and it tends to do so by infecting the (R)eplican'ts.

Now let's hear from YOU how coupon (voucher) schools were promoted in your State.

Keep in mind the item on the list is from 1980.

Who ran your schools in 1980?

[-] 5 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

not sure when you have said that but it certainly is the implication of what you write and what you REMOVE! now I am not sure you know this but I do not dance to your tune. so when you play by the rules I will - how about that. lots of questions you need to answer before I respond to your list - you are like moses with the tablets here! answer one question - do both parties worship at the alter of the "free market" (not at all free but that is another matter and I doubt I can get you to respond to one point so I will leave that alone) - do both parties embrace free market schools and get huge funding from the hedge fund boys who advocate for them? now I would love to engage in a real dialogue with you - to find out what you really think. I doubt that we are too far apart - I imagine we agree on most things but I am a bit to radical for you. I have told you many times my wife (who you have banned for no reason!!) is a democratic party elected official and works sometimes for our rep - Pallone - he is a good guy. but we can never have a real conversation shooz - why is that - seems to me mostly because you call me a liar and all sorts of shit for no reason. I can't figure it out - maybe someone here is brighter than I am and can tell me.

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[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Implications, are all you've ever had.

That's what makes conversation so difficult with you.

When I show you literal truth, all you do is imply

Yet if one were to apply implications to what you've said?

What could be implied from that.

Taking into account your above reply.

Fact free, I might add.

One could imply that you are at the very least, an apologist for the libe(R)tarians, if not full fledged one yourself.

Would you like to look at other items from the list that Bernie has provided, since you've found this one too complicated to actually reply to, and so mounted a personal attack on me?

There's a lot of them to choose from.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 7 months ago

let me point out the obvious first - the system (that would be BOTH "free market" capitalist parties) is designed (by Madison mostly) to "protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." but you are a sensitive one - no? personal attack on you - poor boy. so what exactly was the attack - when I pointed out the FACT that you remove shit that should not be removed or maybe that fact that you banned my wife fro no reason. those are not attacks on you. I have not looked at your list and do not plan to - tell me again why should I? as for the implication of what I say - let me spell it out one more time - exactly what I think about the two ruling parties - no I think I will let noam speak for me (I like to do that in case you didn't notice) - here is noam -

"Well, Democrats and Republicans aren’t a category—the Republicans and Democrats differ. Like on the rare occasions when I vote–and they are pretty rare–sometimes I vote for Democrats, sometimes for Republicans, sometimes for somebody else. It’s not a sharp split. They are two factions of the same party. We have a one-party state with two somewhat different factions with a lot of overlap; the business party has a couple of factions. You find some difference between them. I wouldn’t say there’s no difference on the average. So what should you do in that case? Well, like everything, it’s your own choice. Do you want to live in a democratic society or do you want to live in the society we have, which remember is not a democratic society and is not intended to be.

If you take a course in political theory here, I’m sure they’ll teach you that the United States is not a democracy. It’s what is called, in the technical literature, a polyarchy. That’s the term invented by the leading democratic theorist, Yale professor Robert Dahl, but the idea is old, its goes way back to James Madison and the foundation of the Constitution. A polyarchy is system in which power resides in the hands of those who manage the wealth of the nation, the responsible class of men. And the rest of the population is fragmented, distracted, allowed to participate every couple years—they’re allowed to come and say “yes, thank you, why don’t you continue for another four years.” They have a little choice among the responsible men, the wealth of the nation. That’s the way the country was founded. It was founded on the principle explained by Madison at the Constitutional Convention that the primary goal of government is to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. And then the Constitution was designed to sort of ensure that. There’s been a lot struggle about it over the years, a lot of victories have been won by the public, so it’s not the same as it was two centuries ago. But that remains. That remains the elite ideal. And it’s a constant struggle. And most of the population is well aware of

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[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 7 months ago

is that supposed to be a response to what I wrote to you? you have been conversing with the dog boy too much. he is incoherent - so are you.

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[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 7 months ago

answer my questions and I will answer yours- very common way to discuss things - and as I said - you are stupid. that is the only explanation for what goes on here - time to take it to the next level

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[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 7 months ago

I didn't call you any name at all - I just pointed out an obvious fact. we all know it here- I think there are only two who don't. not sure what you are trying to accomplish but if it is making ows less effective and educating fewer people then you are doing a hell of a job - brownie.

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[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 7 months ago

you mean like "I am rubber and you are glue" - adult like that??

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[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

BRIAN JONES: Well, I just want to respond to that for a minute. We have more than a dozen charter school CEOs in New York City who make more than the chancellor, and the chancellor oversees over 1,600 schools. Some of these charter school CEOs have just two schools and make nearly half-a-million dollars. So the idea that some people aren’t in this for the possibilities for personal gain, I think, is just absolutely not true.

The other thing is that it’s important to understand the private nature of charter schools. ......................................Morgan Brittany: Dig a little deeper however and you can see that both Democrats at the center of this firestorm are not really looking out for the best interests of the children.Even though I favor Cuomo’s side, I found that he has major ambitions to run for President in 2016 and is courting money from Wall Street and hedge-fund managers who favor Charter schools.They have lined his pockets with over $400,000 in contributions and the number rises even higher when you add in bankers, philanthropists and real estate moguls who support education and Charter school causes.

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[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

Hmmm, not a word from the so called non-partisans.

A nice, non-partisan issue too.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

I'll chance my arm and hazard a guess that some others are minded like me ... in that replying to you or 'TheDog' is simply making a rod for our own backs because it will descend into b-s and swearing in very short order. Nevertheless, I append for others :

What can educators and others concerned about the future of higher education do to make sure it is not colonized by corporate and other antidemocratic interests ?

First, educators and others need to figure out how to defend more vigorously higher education as a public good and how central it is in producing the formative culture necessary to educate young people to be critical and engaged agents willing to fight to deepen and expand the promises of a substantive democracy.

Second, we need to address what the optimum conditions are for educators, artists, activists, etc., to perform their work in an autonomous and critical fashion. In other words, we need to think through the conditions that make academic labor fruitful, engaging and relevant.

Third, we need to turn the growing army of temporary workers now swelling the ranks of the academy into full-time, permanent staff. The presence of so many part-time employees is scandalous and both weakens the power of the faculty and exploits them.

Fourth, we need to educate students to be critical agents, to learn how to take risks, engage in thoughtful dialogue and address what it means to be socially responsible.

Fifth, educators and others must address pedagogy as the practice of freedom. Pedagogy is not about training; it is about educating people to be self-reflective, critical and self-conscious about their relationship with others and to know something about their relationship with the larger world. Pedagogy in this sense not only provides important thoughtful and intellectual competencies; it also enables people to act effectively upon the societies in which they live.

Sixth, educators and others need a new political language with broader narratives that address the totality of society rather than focus on single-based issue politics. I am not against identity politics or single-based issues, but we need to find ways to connect these issues to more encompassing, global narratives about democracy so we can recognize their strengths and limitations in building broad-based social movements. In short, it is imperative that as educators and socially responsible intellectuals, artists, parents and concerned citizens, we must act for justice and against injustice. And such a call to pursue the truth with a small "t" must be shaped by informed judgments, self-reflection, searing forms of critique, civic courage and a deep commitment to education as central to the struggle for democracy and social change. Needless to say, we need to find new ways to connect education to the struggle for a democratic future, which is now being undermined in ways that were unimaginable 30 years ago.

Opposing the forces of domination is important, but it does not go far enough. We must move beyond a language of pointless denunciations and offer instead a language that moves forward with the knowledge, skills, and social relations necessary for the creation of new modes of agency, social movements, and democratic economic and social policies. We need to open up the realm of human possibility, recognize that history is open, that justice is never complete, and that democracy can never be fully settled.

I fervently believe in the need for both critique and hope, and have faith that the left can develop the public spheres that make such possibilities possible, whether they be schools, classrooms, workshops, newspapers, online journals, community colleges or other spaces where knowledge, power, ethics, and justice merge to create new subjectivities, new modes of civic courage, and new hope for the future.

~

Don't bother replying as if you do I probably won't reply because I'm VERY pissed off at U 2 ... must be the overblown, hubristic, bombastic, stadium-rock numbers .. I should know - I used to be a fan !!! ~{;-)

spero meliora ...

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 8 months ago

By dianeravitch March 30, 2014 //

“Yes, yes, yes. Lately Democratic operatives have been moaning and groaning about lack of excitement among their voters. Supposedly this is a law of nature. Democrats just don’t get excited about midterms. Yet, “school reform” is demobilizing important elements of that base vote. This is one of the most vibrant web sites around these days, and unfortunately, we have to fight not only the GOP but also our “own” party – from President Obama to Arne Duncan to Rahm Emanuel to Pat Quinn (who couldn’t wait to make Paul Vallas his Lt. Gov. Running mate, within days of Vallas being run out of Bridgeport, CT on a rail). “Stop doing things to harm your base voters. What a concept! Maybe then we’d vote. Don’t you realize you’re going to need every vote you can get?” An independent investigation found that nearly half of Chicago’s charter schools are under-enrolled, but the mayor-controlled school board plans to open more. This will drain more students and resources from the public schools. Mayor Emanuel hopes to destroy public education as his legacy to the city. The mayor’s hand-picked board will vote tomorrow on authorizing 31 new charters.

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

It would appear not ! UGG !! Ugg, mug-ugg !!!

WTF is it with your points btw ?! I don't dig !!

Oh, how come u joined OWS so early btw ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5vCpXVbTS4

Their 1st single ... back when they rocked :-)

pax ...

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[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

I'm NOT chuffed at all tho' !!! D'u reckon that foreigners are NOT liked around here ?!! Sheeesh !

multum in parvo ...

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

This is related to voucher financed, charter schools in what way?

I can and have shown it's direct relationship to libe(R)tarian policy.

Chances are, without much trouble, I could also demonstrate a similar relationship to EVERYTHING, currently being called neoliberal, or neoconservative, worldwide, by pretty much anyone using the terms.

All the Gish Gallops are a distraction from that simple fact..

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

It was connected to - you know ... edjumification but I'm cowed by your wisdom and knowledge ! How dare I have the temerity to reply to you ?!! WTF was I really thinking - when you regard everything as a challenge and personal afront here ?!!! Reckon you need a break ? I'm sure 'TheDog' would happily mod for you in your absence. I've NO idea what ''Gish Gallops'' are btw - but do they come with chips (fries) ?

vale ....

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 8 months ago

You can google, Gish Gallop.

Following on the actual topic.

Of

“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended". ( libe(R)tarian platform)

No one mentioned this, but no one cared much about my Michigan Matters thread, other than those who've been chased away.

But.....being one of the first States affected by the Koch/ALEC machine.

This ruling applies.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/04/22/3429490/us-supreme-court-upholds-michigan-affirmative-action-ban/

Note what is said in the dissent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014785706

There's links there to the full paper, but the gist is in the link provided.

Here's another one.

"“We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.” (libe(R)tarian platform)

And a current iteration of it's progress.

I learned about it, from a local protest.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-news/20140423/postal-workers-to-protest-usps-privatization-at-clawson-staples-store

But it's bigger.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024862463

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Re. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop - ahhh, I see ! Very Interesting !! You mean like u do to bw :

Excerpt : ''Examples are most commonly found in "list" articles that may claim to show "100 reasons for" something, or "50 reasons against" something.'' ... Oh, you mean like 'a list of things to abhor' you mean ?!!! Ooops !! I'll look at some of your links now ... maybe !

ad iudicium ...