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Forum Post: forgiveness

Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 6, 2011, 10:03 a.m. EST by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

i don't know if we should lock these bankers/lobbyists/pols up once the protests are over. if seeking retribution were really what these protests are about, then they would be more violent.

i think we should forgive them for their sins - it is my belief that they are the poor, mindfucked victims of a sociopathic system. i think it would be wrong to blame them outright, and i expect to hear the nuremberg defense when they are brought to trial. i've alreadyseen videos of the NYPD saying "just doing my job" while they kettle and beat protesters. let's forgive them, put them out on the street, and redeem themselves by working their way back up the chain like the rest of us.

we MUST, however, enact serious reform at the government and policy level in order to ensure that this unholy corporate-political alliance never happens again.

caveat: there may well be some real sociopaths in the 1%. they are likely right at the top. maybe we could give them some kind of psych test for antisocial personality disorder?



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[-] 1 points by AngryJoe (67) 12 years ago

I think we should hang them. If we sanction and forgive them then they will repeat what they have done as long as they can profit from it. If we don't remove them for good they will go right back to what they've done before. They're no different in the head than a serial killer, but they get off on power instead of directly murdering people.

[-] 1 points by AngryJoe (67) 12 years ago

We need to make a example of those who caused this mess.

[-] 1 points by kestrel (274) 12 years ago

threatening to kill people won't get your non-violent message much air time.

[-] 1 points by AngryJoe (67) 12 years ago

Its not a threat, I haven't threatened anyone, just proposing a solution.

[-] 1 points by Cafree (80) 12 years ago

No thanks. I knew someone in my personal life one time that had been diagnosed with ASPD, trust me. Just move along there is not forgiveness for those that have no soul. I will not give them space in my thoughts or future plans. This is about US, not them unless some of them want to join us...those who have some empathy. Look this economy absolutely sucks. Some of them have to keep their jobs no matter how heinous it is. Some others indeed are sociopaths who beat people with glee just for exercising their right to protest. It's been this way for a long while...protest has become an excuse for police forces to go nuts. G20 Toronto was insanity in North America. The tactics they are using are the same...surround you on all sides, pull some people simply standing there out, beat on them, cage them, mistreat them and everyone else will be too terrified to exercise their right to protest. No "newz" showed this happening or if they did they twisted what really went on. OWS needs to resist these tactics and so far they have done a good job showing what is really happening. I say focus on what WE are going to do in response to these tactics and on the protests themselves. Sociopaths are not worth spending any time thinking about at all. They are not like you and me, they have ZERO empathy and are not capable of it. So let's worry about the 99 percent who are capable of great things.

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

i agree that there's no forgiving someone without empathy - but i'm just trying to differentiate between corporations and humans. corporations are sociopaths, and care only about profit at the expense of all else. but the people who work for them are humans. i just think they're the victims of dangerous social programming.

in essence: are all bankers/politicians/CEOs sociopaths? if so, then your statement holds. if not, then we have to be a little more careful about what we are doing here.

[-] 2 points by Cafree (80) 12 years ago

There may be some who are savable...you'd think since they have plenty of money they'd start whistle blowing and get in the streets with OWS OR at the very least use their money for good to fund and help this movement. Maybe it is fear but, at some point you must over come your fear in the name of being a human being of worth and substance and honor. Where are their whistle blowers? Should we let them know we'd support them? Are you saying we ought to reach out. Every organization has good in it somewhere. I get that. I've said before that I bet the police union would love to join us. I mean we've already got cops telling protesters in private "I agree with what you are doing." So perhaps some C.E.O. would take the risk to come out of the corporate closet. One can dream.

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

i completely agree with you. it's a sensitive topic: cognitive dissonance might keep people from joining who might otherwise do so. i just think that the chance for forgiveness is a nice carrot on the end of the stick!

[-] 2 points by Cafree (80) 12 years ago

Yes, as opposed to the perp walk that has been proposed. Many are so angry now though because in a terrible economy their money bailed out people who committed crimes of fraud. They know if they had done it no mercy would have been shown and off to jail they would have gone immediately. Instead we had to give golden parachutes to these people while barely being able to afford our day to day bills as it is. It's a tall order that carrot. But if one of them would come out and stand up it would be worth it because that one could bring the whole thing down on the heads of many.

[-] 1 points by HankRearden (476) 12 years ago

The bankers are a symptom.

Eliminate them all, but leave the ability to print money, and they will be replaced in a week.

Mark my words.

If all you can do is rage against the machine without knowing the cause of the problem, then all you will accomplish for your effort is a smaller cage.

If you demand the destruction of property rights, YOU WILL GET IT.

[-] 0 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 12 years ago

Amen. Listen socialist hippies- this guy has a clue!

[-] 1 points by anygirl (41) 12 years ago

"Sin" and "unholy" are religious terms and have no place in the legal system. If you want to hold people accountable for crimes, fine, but don't mix religion with the law.

And mandating a psych test would be a constitutional violation. Personality disorders are not illegal and psych tests cannot be used as the basis for employment. I understand what you are saying, but think about the implications of what you are suggesting.

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

you're right - i picked those words to be provocative. even if you don't like the words i chose, i think you get the meaning i intended. i could have used 'errors' and 'evil' but religious words get more of a reaction!

psych tests are sometimes mandated in criminal cases, no? why not now? and if i remember correctly, sociopathy is a disorder of brain biology that prevents the empathy circuit from developing correctly, and results in remorseless egocentric behaviour. it's an ethical minefield because it assumes rational behaviour from a being which is incapable of it. i think the idea of the sociopathic corporation is one of the big arguments against corporate personhood.

[-] 2 points by anygirl (41) 12 years ago

Yes, I got what you meant, but wasn't sure. I mean, you never know...

Psych tests are given in certain criminal cases, but most often it is to see if the accused is fit to stand trial. There would be no question that those responsible for the financial collapse are fit to stand trial so the tests would be unlikely.

A corporation cannot be sociopathic because it is not human. But that is part of the problem with the Supreme Court's decision saying that corporations are people. They want it both ways. Corporations can't get corporate protections but get individual citizen privileges.

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

point taken. what i meant by 'sociopathic' is 'without empathy'. does that change anything?

[-] 2 points by anygirl (41) 12 years ago

Well, you're right in that a major defining characteristic of sociopathology is lack of empathy, but it can't really be applied to corporations- only the people who make them up (not all of the people, obviously!) There are several articles out there about how top executives have similarities to sociopaths.

[-] 1 points by dantes44 (431) from Alexandria, VA 12 years ago

Seriously? Do you think OWS is going to accomplish anything? Been going on for weeks now and guess what, just check the stock market and it's humming along. Stop dreaming.

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

i guess we're just patient.

[-] 0 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 12 years ago

Patience is a virtue to those without better use of their time

[-] 1 points by kestrel (274) 12 years ago

The problem is that there is really no connection now between wall street and the stock market. it's all on the internet and most of the "rich" wall street guys are on in Conn. or long island anyway, heck, they could be in the Bahamas for that matter. The internet makes the place itself irrelevant.

[-] 1 points by Uguysarenuts (270) 12 years ago

Surely the smell of days old BO from protestors wafting up to their offices is punishment enough? I mean come on, they only bankrupted a nation, it's not like they produced glee or anything

[-] 1 points by noahtron (48) from Montreal, QC 12 years ago

glee? that's bread and circuses as far as i'm concerned.

[-] 1 points by kestrel (274) 12 years ago

ha... they just work for home and don't even have to see it. The environmental movement has encouraged the work from home thing anyway.