Forum Post: Forging Alliances with Libertarians and Conservative Independents
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 13, 2011, 8:25 p.m. EST by sophiaomni
(289)
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I recently posted a challenge to conservatives who frequent this site, and have been surprised by the interesting discussions that have occurred as a result of this:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-question-for-all-the-right-wingers-on-this-site/
I was expecting the kind of rants you get on this site from crazy evangelical and hardcore reactionaries, but I was pleasantly surprised that meaningful dialogue could be had with those who call themselves conservatives, but who actually could better be described as libertarians or conservative-learning independents. As a result of these really conversations, I wrote a piece in which I argued that those of use who are supporters of OWS should avoid simply writing off conservatives, because some of them could potentially becomes allies to the movement:
http://www.michaelsrusso.org/2011/12/whats-right-with-right.html
I'd like to know what other people think about this. Is it naive on my part to think that useful alliances can be formed with some some conservatives, if we just take the time to try to understand where they are coming from and are willing to make the effort to communicate openly with them?
I read your post carefully, but I question whether even libertarians or conservative leaning independents are sincere enough to bother with.
We also don't need them. The very fact that these groups exist within the Republican Party ensures that this party will disintegrate eventually. I know a few decent libertarians who are very troubled by how idiotic evangelicals have taken over the RP.
Just wait until Romney gets the nomination...You'll see that party rip apart at the seams. They are doomed.
Well, I am a Independent with both liberal and conservative leanings. I am also not keen on the two party political system and would much rather a populist third party.
There are times I can really understand Libertarianism and Conservatives and times I don't. The same with Liberals. I don't think you are naive to believe that there is common ground among all three and if we had to we could form alliances to protest the very thing we see as a threat to our country. Right now, I think all Americans can come together and protest the S. 1867 NDAA bill which in two sections states that Americans can be taking by the military here and abroad (arrested) and detained indefinitely (with no charges pressed and no trial). I don't know about you, but if Americans can't agree to stand up and demand that this legislation be vetoed by President Obama, then we are in serious trouble.
That's definitely an issue that both sides should be in agreement upon!
Big time!
Honestly, I agree with you. But I think the heart and soul of most (BUT NOT ALL) of these people are so brainwashed - they are hopeless. I have four friends ( I know this a very tiny sampling ). 3 are fox addicts and one is a Gingrich financial conservative atheist. You might find it interesting to go to a tea party meeting and see how they react to you . Remember h ow they acted at the town halls? Why not challenge your energy into something clearly constuctive - like trying to get rid of Citizens United (56% of the tp want to!)
I agree that most conservatives are either brainwashed by Fox or by some form of evangelical Christianity. But I don't think that's true of all self-professed conservatives. From my conversations on this site, I really do believe that some libertarians are actually looking for something more than what either the Democratic or Republicans parties. They are intrigued by the message of OWS and want to find out more about it. I think that we should try to be open...although I admit that the probability of success is limited.
OK- so I'll show off my ignorance.
In VERY brief and VERY generally-
Democrats want a government that is a uniting factor that acts to protect people and the country and the world- from other people - other entities (corporations) - from other countries. Use taxes to help people. Put people first.
Republicans want a government that must not meddle in the rights of the people (except in the bedroom) to achieve whatever they can and support business to build America and as a military to protect the country from other countries. Use taxes to help companies. Puts business and profits first.
Libertarians want a government that does not do anything ( except defense ). No taxes. Puts me first.
It seems to me that "libertarian" may be the purest, simpleist.
How do you convince a libertarian away from that purity?
[ other than our prime directive - get money out ]
Great question. I think that first you start with what many libertarians can agree with--that American capitalism is really socialism for the rich. Most would also agree that corporations have far too much influence in Washington. That to me is a starting point for discussion.
How you get libertarians to accept that some government programs are necessary for the common good is a much more difficult matter.
But I'd start first on what we can agree upon and build from there.
I have found people that are conservative that I can communicate with on this forum. I'm not talking about the ones that are here for the LULZ. It is imperative to go from ideas to facts and also to lay out a step by step process with a result.
When I first joined, I encountered a debate on the money spent on drug war. In that case, people were throwing up facts left and right but I do not think that there was a clear policy formulated. In the United States, policy can only go three directions. So, you need to know what the goal is and find the policy that you know can be accepted and lay it out. Don't use facts on harm reduction if that isn't your goal.
Many are willing to hear what you have to say but as they are reading through your argument the brain is going "But..." We need to be able to address the buts.
Excellent point. I've had exactly the same experience that you did.
It's wise to try to get every single person you can to look at your message. That's what I try to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8&list=FLZkUFtaq10j1B_WSceYCjdg&index=12&feature=plpp_video
http://occupywallst.org/forum/make-a-stand-join-the-clan/
I appreciate your efforts tremendously, and think your blog entry accurate. A little patience and tolerance goes a long way, especially in the midst of trolls terrorizing threads from every political angle, and from my experience here, coming more of late from those who claim to support OWS. I have heard, though, that supporters of Dr. Paul rushed in early in the belief there was all this apparent common ground. I have little doubt there are bloody piles of abandoned accounts, many of which were well-meaning people, that could have easily been welcomed, but instead were relentlessly attacked, marginalized and censored.
Ultimately that may well have been for the best, because OWS really did need to differentiate itself, and it is likely that those who were heckled off the OWS forum planet are still with the movement in spirit, but since they have been alienated, the proof will be in the pudding. So it wouldn't hurt to construct the OWS recipe accordingly. If it ends up being as in-your-face as some of the most vocal supporters around here would like, OWS will simply marginalize itself, and prove no better than its knee-jerk detractors have claimed.
Very thoughtful comment. I think that your suspicion that many would-be supporters of OWS have probably been put off by some of our nasty comments is probably correct. Some of the right-wing trouble-makers who come onto the site simply to disrupt conversation may deserve such treatment. But sometimes I think that some of the liberals on this site are all too willing to lump all conservatives into the category of trolls.
I hate the thought that people who are really interested in dialogue are driven from this site. And rather than having them as potential allies, we've just confirmed their worst suspicions about this movement.
I think it will be alright. Most of them probably were attracted by the excitement, and the perfect targeting of Wall Street as the center of so much that is wrong. It was as if what they had believed for so long was finally being expressed, and they wanted to be a part of it. The hard-core partisans can't help but continue to try to poison the punch, but even that spell is starting to finally wear off with most people. Once people realize that left-right is a carefully crafted illusion to keep us fighting with each other as a distraction while a crafty criminal elite robs us blind, subverts our good will, and destroys our future.
No doubt there are people who describe themselves as being on the right who share the feelings of OWS supporters and if they want to work with OWS why not?
Some of them may say they want to work with OWS, but we've seen that they are more than willing to undermine the cause, given the opportunity.
A small minority of Americans call themselves liberal, progressive, or anything to the left of that. I think it comes to less than 25%. Yet public opinion polls show that majorities believe that money wrongly dominates our politics, that there is too much inequality. Majority also wanted single payer health insurance. Now, It must be that many of these people call themselves conservatives, moderates, independents. These rank and file people are the ones I am talking about, not ideologues who want to disrupt or change the direction of Occupy. BTW I see lots of activities in the works. I love this energy and fearlessness that OWS has stirred up among young people (which I am not one of.)
I hope that you are right. The only way that we can truly succeed is if we "convert" those in mainstream American who right now are listening to the Tea party. I'm dubious about the prospects for winning most of these people over, but it might be possible with some.
Libertarianism is the exact opposite of everything that OWS claims to represent.
Making alliance with the devil will get you burned.
I think that we might be too hasty to attack all libertarians. Some of them really have as many problems with the corporate take-over of the American government that we do. I just think that we need to deal with those who label themselves as conservatives and libertarians on a case-by-case basis. In some cases, you might just be surprised at how sympathetic some of these people are.
You say nothing about the issue I raised.
"Libertarianism is the exact opposite of everything that OWS claims to represent."
OWS is a protest against the breakdown of American democratic regulatory systems and institutions. Libertarians work to make democratic regulatory systems and institutions breakdown and go away. It is libertarian philosophy and ideology in the hands of Congress, Wall Street and Alan Greenspan that caused the financial collapse of the United States of America. The collapse that OWS protests against.
Anyone who subscribes to the philosophy of libertarianism needs to be attacks as the only form of communication that they understand, force.
The reasoning Americans I have known, over the years, who identify themselves as libertarians usually come away from conversations with me no longer claiming to be libertarians. Ideologues are unreachable.
I agree with you that, on one level, libertarians are problematic because they want to eliminate most or all government regulations, and, in that sense, would be difficult to forge alliances with.
I think that many people who call themselves libertarians are not as extreme as this--they are not, in other words, mindless ideologues. They're suspicious of government, and perhaps rightly so. Do you really think that the US government--even with someone like Obama in charge--can be trusted to work in the interest of the American people?
I understand your main point, but perhaps I'm just not ready to give up trying to reach some self-professed conservatives just yet.
There is no compromise with right-wingers. Only capitulation to them. Look at the Democrats in Congress and Barack Obama for the object lesson from hell.
Regulation is the democratic common ground between Americans who are willing to live in common society with others and those who hate any idea of a common society of humanity. Regulation is the reason for and product of democracy. Everything that OWS protests for is based on a better regulated society and less corruption of regulation.
Libertarians do not believe in regulation. Libertarians and right-wingers in Congress do everything that they can to undermine and subvert democratic institutions of regulation.
Libertarians want only the liberty to prey on others with impunity and without government oversight or regulation of their greed. They are the religious fanatics of Wall Street's creed of greed.