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Forum Post: A Cartoon For the LoL Department

Posted 1 year ago on Sept. 15, 2012, 12:07 p.m. EST by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

This is it

Image from ReligionNewsBlog

Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard has been living in fear since he drew his notorious Muhammad cartoon. But even that could not prepare him for being attacked in his own home by a Muslim seeking revenge

In September 2005, the Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard was asked by his newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, to draw the prophet Muhammad "as you see him". He did, and it changed his life. The resulting cartoon was deemed blasphemous by hardline Muslims around the world and drew death threats. More than four years later, after Westergaard had already been forced to spend a harrowing few months on the run with his wife Gitte, a 28-year-old man of Somali origin forced his way into their home last Friday evening wielding an axe and a knife.

.

Arabic public response to the cartoons by Kurt Westergaard:

At least five people have been killed in Afghanistan as protests against European cartoons mocking the Prophet Muhammad swept across the country.

Two people died when protesters turned on the US airbase at Bagram - although the US has had no involvement with the images, which originated in Denmark.

Meanwhile in Somalia, a teenage boy died after protesters attacked police.

Iran announced it was halting trade with Denmark, as protesters pelted the Danish embassy with petrol bombs.

.

And more unrest over the cartoons continues when the paper reprints them:

Demonstrations against publication held in Pakistan, Gaza, Denmark

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Muslims protested Friday in the Gaza Strip, Pakistan and Denmark against the reprinting of a Danish newspaper cartoon depicting the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

Thousands of residents in the conservative Gaza Strip ruled by the militant Islamic Hamas movement marched in the Jebaliya refugee camp chanting: "What Denmark said is heresy."

"It is shameful that Denmark should renew its offense against the prophet," Hamas official Mushir al-Masri told reporters at the protest.


Four men have been sentenced to 12 years in prison by a Danish court which found them guilty of planning a terrorist attack on newspaper offices.

The court heard the men wanted to kill people in revenge for Jyllands-Posten's publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.

The four were all Muslims resident in Sweden. Police said they were arrested just hours before the foiled attack.

All the men had denied charges of terrorism against them.

The Copenhagen-based newspaper's publication of the cartoons of Muhammad sparked protests in Muslim countries.


Writers, broadcasters, friends and publishing insiders recall what it was like to be caught up in the most controversial story in recent literary history, The Satanic Verses and the ensuing fatwa against its author, as Salman Rushdie prepares to bring out his eagerly awaited memoir.


SPIEGEL Interview with Ayaan Hirsi

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe.

Short film by Dutch movie maker Theo van Gogh in association with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The film deals with the opression of women in many Muslim countries. Van Gogh was killed by a Muslim fanatic in 2004 because of the film. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is planning the second part of the film. "Submission" is the translation of the Arabic word "Islam".


on a personal note - I love the cartoon. I think it's funny shit. I also think right wing repelicans are not that far behind radical Islam . . .

z

126 Comments

126 Comments


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[-] 3 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

that does get to the heart of the matter very succinctly.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Would cartoons of Moses & Jesus be offensive to Jews & Christians ?

Would you really also find those kind of cartoons "funny" too ?

How much glee at others' discomfiture should we take ?

Do you really and honestly "love the cartoon" ?

Do you really think that "it's funny shit" ?

Are you enjoying what's going on ?

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

hum - legitimate questions I suppose.

  • yes, and there is precedent -

  • that depends - generally Jesus isn't doesn't make such a great caricature as Mohammad, and the followers of Jesus generally - generally I said - don't go around blowing shit up.

  • Probably not that much - but when the fuckers wage jihad against infidels, and treat their women as no more than chattel . . . well. I dunno. I guess I find on some small level a threat to my own freedom, and humor is a great releaver of stress . . .

  • Yes, I do - I think the only thing missing is steam rolling out of his nostrils. I think it's funny. I also think it is both accurate and relevant to current events. People need to stop blowing shit up on the basis of religious intolerance. Until they do, I think our laughter is appropriate.

  • the cartoon itself is perfect. The circumstances that make it so really suck.

  • No, I am not. I do not enjoy the murder that is so common place. I do not enjoy the fact that so many people can be driven to such extremes of rage - manipulated - with such tremendous ease. The current state of rioting has, as a consequence, the destruction of their own property and wealth - not to mention the loss of life. I find that deplorable.

The difference between us is perhaps best summed this way -

I can separate the cartoon from the violence. The cartoon did not create the violence. People did.

People created the violence. Not the cartoon.

The cartoon is funny.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Sheeesh :-( Take a ticket to ride bro' :-) & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sxfuFBOy-s ~*~

Seriously dude, really - just who is blowing up who exactly and where ? Also please consider that Judaism is a cult with many sects ; Christianity is a cult with many sects ; Islam is a cult with many sects !!! Anybody else tired of all this internecine BS dick swinging contest betwixt Abrahamic Mumbo-Jumo Subscribers ?!! Consider closely - 'spiritual supremacy' is but a 'silent breath' away from 'racial supremacy' & is a systems glitch of the brain & manifestation of something not good, something Dark !

Fear is the absence of Love and leads to suffering ~

shalom aleichem ; salam alaikum ; pax vobiscum ...

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Anybody else tired of all this internecine BS dick swinging contest

well yeah

that was the whole point of the cartoon!

  • wtf?
[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Have you seen any of the Judeophobic 'Cartoon' Imagery from Germany in the 1930s & 40s ?!

Perhaps they thought those were "funny" too !! Just sayin' !!!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

completely different context and meaning and intent.

If you said people should respect other peoples' religions, I would agree.

The fact remains, there is no justification for committing murder over a cartoon.

In the 1930s there was no use of Judaism to justify murder - and that is not what the cartoons would have been suggesting.

I find it inexplicable that people cannot seem to grasp the simple concept:

cartoons don't kill people. people kill people.

As bensdad said below

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

I dare you to look at 'anti-semitic cartoons' from Germany in that period and then compare to your oh, so "funny" cartoon !!! Go on Zen, go say "In the 1930s there was no use of Judaism to justify murder" again after you've seen them !! It'll be a straight forward exercise for a researcher, like you !

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I found this one, here

from this website

I still fail to see your point - and since you have been reduced to throwing insults I guess I'll just have to presume you really don't have one - other than some ill defined emotional attachment to the issue at hand.

There is a world of difference between what the Jews were doing prior to WWII and what Muslim extremists are doing today. The cartoon imagery is completely different.

And it comes from a completely different perspective and set of historical facts.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

As you say yourself - "I still fail to see your point", so there is really little left for me to say or do here. However, note that I wasn't comparing Jews to Muslims per se ; I was making an analogue of Germans and Americans !! I can not show you that which you will not (maybe can not) see. Beware Propaganda - 'there be monsters'. I find myself weary now.

spero meliora ...

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

you are ignoring huge differences between the cultures of pre WWII Germany and today's U.S. Yes there is a variety of racism here - but no one is advocating racism as a matter of policy - much less as a solution to our ills, economic or otherwise.

We do not accept as a social or as a cultural norm that some other group is less than, and deserving of our hatred or violence -

Unless you want to talk terrorists - people who choose to engage in violence against others for no reason, and this is based not on race or religion but rather on behavior.

Huge differences you are completely ignoring my man.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

More selective thinking and I could talk about the slow, insidious, creeping 'Fascism' that is prevalent in 'The United States of Amnesia" (Gore Vidal, RIP). You bring up "terrorists" but really what know you of 'terror' ? Try this & see if you can join up your thinking and we can talk about who is "ignoring" what :

Who's bombing who 'ZD' & who's 'terrorizing' who ? Further, IF you start to believe that America was attacked by Muslim 'terrorists' and is also susceptible to future attacks, then a “War on Terror” and a domestic police state to root out 'terrorists' become necessary in order to make Americans 'safe'.

The very idea that a domestic police state and an open-ended war might be even more dangerous threats to Americans and their way of life, than "terrorists" - is an Impermissible Thought.

pax et lux ; hic et ubique ; nunc et semper ...

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I know what terror is, and I know what psychological torture is. I know what behavioral conditioning is.

I also know that within the Pentagon there are ideological divisions, and a reluctance to accept civilian authority.

I know the President has issued a policy and has replaced commanders in the field in an effort to support that policy, with the specific intent of reducing civilian casualties.

I cannot comment on how well the Pentagon has implemented that policy, nor can I comment on whether insurgents are hiding behind civilians -

the United States was attacked on September 11, and that attack demanded a military response - and the reason it demanded a military response is because of the nature of the relationship between the Taliban and al Qaeda.

All of which has little to do with cartoons and the response of the civilian population in the Muslim world to that cartoon - beyond the fact of culture.

  • there is a large segment of the Muslim culture that finds violence to be an appropriate response to cartoon imagery.

  • you do not condemn this behavior.

so you are basically an apologist for the Muslim extremist. That's alright. You have your right to free speech. I support that.

I find your support for Muslim extremism reprehensible, but I support your right to free speech.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

The more I read your comment above - the worse it got. You call me "an apologist for" and in "support" of "Muslim extremism" - which is flat out wrong and shameful of you. I have been on this forum for over 11 months now so go 'user:search' my name & well over 100 'forum-posts' or hundreds of comments on too many threads to mention. Go see IF you can find a scintilla of evidence for your absurd, sad & silly 'ass'ertion. You won't find a thing. Because it doesn't exist. I won't forget this exchange though. Reread my comments above below & elsewhere to join the dots & see where I come from or stay in the dark !!!

<shakes head wearily>

ad iudicium et fiat lux ...

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

"The very idea that a domestic police state and an open-ended war might be even more dangerous threats to Americans and their way of life, than "terrorists" - is an Impermissible Thought".

valid argument - I don't claim otherwise, never have.

does not address the culture that refuses to accept criticism to such a degree that violence and bloodshed are acceptable forms of response

  • to cartoons
[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

If you say "valid argument - I don't claim otherwise, never have" to :

  • "The very idea that a domestic police state and an open-ended war might be even more dangerous threats to Americans and their way of life, than "terrorists" - is an Impermissible Thought" ...

then we agree on something here at least. Perspective Is Everything. The issue is not "cartoons", that's just a 'triggering event'. Shit is deeper than that 'Dog' - reflection & re-finding your 'Zen', will reveal much !

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I don't have to go look elsewhere - it's right here. On this thread. You may not have explicitly stated that it is acceptable for people to riot - much less to kill - over a cartoon, but you certainly have not condemned it.

I get sympathizing with those who have been victimized by colonialism - every bit as much as global corporate hegemony and induced starvation in the interest of agribusiness - as an example - or the plight of the Ogoni people of the Nigerian Delta . . .

Don't tell me I can't criticize something when it is wrong.

rioting and killing over a cartoon is wrong. it's silly. it is anger misdirected. it is counter productive.

  • it is the result of population control and management.

I complain about that kind of thing here, I won't justify it when it comes from some other culture. I reject it out of hand.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Again, "Who's bombing who 'ZD' & who's 'terrorizing' who ? Further, IF you start to believe that America was attacked by Muslim 'terrorists' and is also susceptible to future attacks, then a 'War on Terror”'and a domestic police state to root out 'terrorists' become necessary in order to make Americans 'safe'.

"The very idea that a domestic police state and an open-ended war might be even more dangerous threats to Americans and their way of life, than "terrorists" - is an Impermissible Thought".

(from : http://occupywallst.org/forum/for-the-lol-department/#comment-834933 and more importantly also see: http://occupywallst.org/forum/yeah-it-must-just-all-be-because-of-the-video/#comment-833985 )

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

If you said people should respect other peoples' religions, I would agree.

Why? I think nobody should respect a false epistemologies. We should only respect logic, science, and truth. We need to stop respecting religions and we need to throw them in the garbage can of bad human ideas.

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Do you realize that you are intolerant of history? You want to sweep history under the carpet. You don't want to pay any attention to it.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Not at all. In fact, some of my ancestors were historical characters . . .

I just don't believe that any cartoon is justification for violence. I find it absurd that you seem to be justifying violence of any kind - especially over a cartoon.

that's just silly

are you sure you are a leftist?

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

You are intolerant of history, therefore you do not care to understand the present, you simply judge.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I like history. In fact, one of my recent posts was based on history.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

It's a fact that some people want to kill a cartoonist because of a drawing. That's a problem, and it exists because religions are all based on a false epistemology. Religions are very dangerous. All of them. The world will be a better place when they are all outlawed. We must prone logical and critical thought.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe.

. . . . Ali 'Everyone Is Afraid to Criticize Islam'

.

I think we see it right on this thread.

[-] 1 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

I don't know, I grew up in Smalltown America... There were 80 kids in our graduating class - the largest in our history - which included two Jews, two African Americans, one who was Japan-ese, one Chin-ese... no Roman Catholics that I am aware of, well, maybe one or two in later years. I mean, I remember when the first Italian family moved in, people would gather outside the house just hoping to get a glimpse; - truth.

Everybody got along, they were all good kids, and there was never any "prejudice" because there was no one to be prejudiced against. "Racism" hadn't even been invented yet; it was not a word we were familiar with. I suppose there were a lot of words we were unfamiliar with.

Well, maybe there was a little bit of "interracial" angst... I mean, I remember when Martin King got his first holiday; it was announced that we were to observe five minutes of silence. Well, half the class got up and walked out, but nobody was offended, except the teachers, because there was nobody there to get offended; - truth, all of the above "others" were later arrivals.

Haha... I can still remember the looks on their faces. Ahh, but how those teachers doth protest, ehh? Which, for the most part we found pretty hysterical; in fact, we found that just about everything was pretty hysterical if ya just took a moment to wrap your mind around it; that's just the way life is...

And kids didn't worry about any of the things they do today; either did parents, and life was good.

Well, admittedly, my mind has since been warped by both time and experience but you know I've been watching Muslims from afar blow good people up now since the 1970s. It's interesting, too, that after hundreds of thousands of years there are but very few religious texts in the world; which, of course, makes our goal of reading them that much simpler, doesn't it?

I wasn't really impressed with the Qur'an; it's all about behavior and behavioral controls, and so repetitive; there is very little of spirituality, which is the very reason it, a), appeals to the uneducated, of which, apparently there are many, and b), is widely left to clerics to interpret - everyone looks to the clerics. Which, for someone like myself, raised in a Protestant world where virtually all is ultimately deemed to be a matter of personal exegesis or individual interpretation, is a radically new concept. The thing is, a religious world reliant in large part on an individual interpretation is capable of producing far more dissenters, especially when members of your community or congregation start blowing the crap out of innocent people. Or even innocent non-people beings and/ or assorted other "things."

Just for "burning" the Qur'an... ?

And praise be to Allah, just saying...

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I do believe you have ended the debate.

It is interesting how it seems a properly formed nugget of truth can be like that.

[-] 1 points by marvelpym (-184) 1 year ago

He got that from the Dr Pepper Facebook page after someone posted it in reponse to the evolution theme ad controversy. Of course, nobody got killed because of that cartoon.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

What if we inserted family instead of faith?

Not that its a reason to go biserk and start killing people.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

At times in history, religions have induced great up-shifts in civilization. To know more, go to Youtube, for example, and search "Islam mathematics". At one point, Islamic scholars made great contributions to mathematics and the sciences, particularly medicine, contributions which were based on their faith, and which still benefit all of us to this day.

I think we should be more concerned with the dynamics of how religions make such contributions at certain times, while at others, they are degraded into having a destructive influence on society.

For example, the same Islam, which made such fine contributions in the middle ages, was later subverted by the British empire when it colonized India. Using a "divide and conquer" strategy, Muslims were set against Hindus, allowing the British manipulators to capture the spoils of war once the Hindus and Muslims had been induced to massacre each other.

To this day, the global financial "empire" with its centers in the City of London financial district and on Wall Street, still manipulate practically the entire Muslim world through the influence of MI6 and the CIA.

The same divide and conquer strategy is used to set the west and the Islamic world against each other, all to the benefit of the global financial oligarchy.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

I seem to remember a piece of artwork at the Brooklyn Museum during their "Sensation" exhibit that caused a great deal of protest when an artist placed elephant dung over a depiction of the Virgin Mary.

From wikipedia: "The exhibition was shown in New York City at the Brooklyn Museum from 2 October 1999 to 9 January 2000. The New York show was met with instant protest, centering on The Holy Virgin Mary by Chris Ofili, which had not provoked this reaction in London. While the press reported that the piece was "smeared", "splattered" or "stained" with elephant dung,[9][10] Ofili's work in fact showed a carefully rendered black Madonna decorated with a resin-covered lump of elephant dung. The figure is also surrounded by small collaged images of female genitalia from pornographic magazines; these seemed from a distance to be the traditional cherubim."

Works both ways ZenDog. You surprise me with this post.

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Works both ways ZenDog.

Apparently you can't read very well.

What did I say?

I'm not into population control and management - and I don't much care if it comes from the Pope, the Ayatollah, or Jim and Tammy Baker . . .

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

And you know what ZenDog? Apparently you haven't read much.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

well okay then

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

LOL!

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Right. You just post degrading cartoons. Well done. Post a degrading cartoon of Jesus or the Virgin Mary why don't ya?

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

You don't think too deeply about things do you. Ultimately it comes down to a question of freedom of speech.

You've heard of that, haven't you?

And how would you respond if there were say - a billion Christians running around, and a percentage of them insisted that any such cartoon of Jesus would be met with violence?

better yet - why don't you convert to Islam . . . I don't think you will like it very well . . . .

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Post a degrading cartoon of Mary or Jesus next to the one above. Come on now. Fair is fair.

And, no, I'm very shallow, you know me.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

well, I hunted and this is the best I have found. I really shouldn't have - it doesn't add to the forum post itself.

Well - actually that isn't entirely true - but what ever.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Better.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

It's not the same. Islam does not permit any type of representation of Mohammed. Even if he was portrayed in the best possible light it would be unacceptable to a mulsim. There is no comparison to be made.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

I'm aware of that. Makes it all the worse if the cartoonist knew that and proceeded with it, which I'm sure he did. It's still a fair comparison because Christians do not like when their religious characters are degraded. Try saying "Jesus" as a bit of a swear in a Catholic home, even.

[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

"Try saying "Jesus" as a bit of a swear in a Catholic home, even"
Yeah - I did that and they killed me for doing it.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

It's a fact that Islam has more terrorists than any other religion and that they don't tolerate other types of thinking. It's also a fact that peaceful muslims don't stand up against the terrorists who soil their religion. This is not a coincidence.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Lets Bomb The Fuk outta 'em then ! Oh look ... we tried that already !! Consider : 'H8 begets H8' !!!

cave - anguis in herba ...

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

No, that's not the answer. And I never said it was. The answer is education. Americans are a violent people who support their worldwide army with taxes. They are also a huge problem in the world today.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

The Empire is dragging us all to Near Permanent War abroad and Fascism at home. Resistance is an absolute right ; Mass, Regular, Non Violence Actions are the quickest path to peace & justice, maybe !!

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

The Empire cannot make a citizen enroll in the army and shoot people. Americans choose to do that.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Right to free speech in the west trumps ridiculous religious practices and beliefs. I don't see anything wrong with what the cartoonist did. I don't need to accommodate myself to the religious fantasies of my neighbor and never should have to. They can kill me for my free speech, it says more about them than about me.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Right, so ZD should be fair and put a degrading cartoon of Mary or Jesus next to that one.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

That's not the point. The point is you Americans let religious fanatics walk all over you. That's why half your representatives talk religion and why you have "In God We Thrust" on your money even though you are supposed to have separation of Church and State. Zendog can attack muslims without having to attack Christians as well. He could do both, but he doesn't need to to make his point. You don't have to attack all religions in the world to attack one.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

So, "Zendog can attack muslims without having to attack Christians as well", right ? Ok but do we have any right to call to motives and question that, then dog ?!

fallaces sunt rerum species et cave canem ...

[-] 1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Sure, why not. I can also criticize Christians without criticizing mulsims. Do we really have to criticize every religion to have the right to criticize one? If you criticize a finding in biology, or the writing of a philosopher, do you also have to criticize all other sciences to compensate? Please.

Do we have any right to call to motives and question that, then dog ?!

You can, but it's a logical fallacy: appeal to motive. In truth, only zendog's arguments matter and if you don't agree with him you should counter-argue instead of dropping lame logical fallacies like you always do.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Look closer at what I said. I'm not looking for 'parity of parody' - I'm questioning motive & asking if that is fair to do so. Are we just having abstract discussions about principles or is there something deeper and darker at play ? Your 'non sequitur was skilfully employed, btw.

ad iudicium ...

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

'T' : I agree with much of that but calling 'Religions' - "evil" is a 'Manichean Binary' that is a 'logical fallacy' in itself. Science has its 'orthodoxies and heresies' too and 'metaphysics' transcends yet connects both.

Metaphysics transcends nothing. It is pseudoscience and thus worthless.

Science is the only correct epistemology because it not only allows, but encourages doubt. Not only that, but doubting the scientific method itself is encouraged and that's why it is often modified and enhanced. Does science makes mistakes, yes, but that is not the point. The point is science moves forward in the right direction and encourages us to discover our universe in the most correct way possible.

Science brings people together because doubt is possible and experiments are repeatable. A scientist in Japan can agree with one in Israel. Science converges towards truth. The more science advances, the more it converges towards truth. The bad theories are replaced with better ones. This translates in knowing more of what the ultimate truth is.

Religions and all other pseudosciences make people diverge, not converge. They grow like a tree, from a root more and more branches are attached (branches being a metaphor for interpretations). There are a zillion interpretations of the Qur'an because the Qur'an holds no truth. The same can be said for any other religious book or doctrine.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

LOL & untwist your boxers & be "LifTed" :

You can think that you 'know' much with your paltry five senses without 'feeling' that which is nebulous, etheric and insubstantial as alas increasingly these days, 'the immaterial' is ... immaterial, lol. (ps : do I take it that you never did acid because I could have sworn otherwise ~:-)

Chill out 'T' --- despite your musical prejudices, try to enjoy the tune.

pax vobis. ...

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

The only thing at play is the danger of religions which is a really big danger. It's a false premise that we should respect religions thinking, we shouldn't because it's not a valid form of epistemology. Religions thinking is brainwashing children with lies and hate, it's nothing else. All religions are evil and humanity will become much better when they are all destroyed and forgotten for ever.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

'T' : I agree with much of that but calling 'Religions' - "evil" is a 'Manichean Binary' that is a 'logical fallacy' in itself. Science has its 'orthodoxies and heresies' too and 'metaphysics' transcends - yet connects, both - thank G*d, lololol !!!

"Man does not live by bread alone" & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sxfuFBOy-s ~{~

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

from one of your two links:

This appears to be inaccurate. The Boston Globe is owned by the New York Times Company. If you visit the Boston Globe Website you will find at the bottom of the page where it says plainly -

It isn't a Murdoch holding.

It is also unlikely that Saudi Arabia would have much interest in fomenting radical islam in Boston. Possible - but unlikely. They are an ally of the U.S.

That isn't to say that conservatives haven't been up to no good - I'm sure they have. It is what they do - and I hate them for it.

At the same time, it almost appears as if Max B is operating from the opposite side of the coin.

There has got to be a middle somewhere . . .

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

You need to to refind uoy 'Zen', dog.

Do I? Did you not, finally, concede:

Yes, I think you did, somewhere buried in that verbose mass of verbiage . . . .

You are afraid of that cartoon. You are afraid it will inspire islamophobia . . . I get that - I think the fear is misplaced, but I get it. I don't believe that cartoon either inspires or legitimizes islamophobia - I believe the behavior of radical Islam does that all on its own, and that cartoon is simply a way of expressing that perception in a way people can laugh at it.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

I concede NOTHING !!! I'm only "afraid" of what that cartoon is helping to push The U$A towards - as Muslims become The New Communists - a new and never ending Permanent WAR Economy and Culture. I said what you quote before our contretemps here and all that I have to say I have said. You desire I "concede" because your ego needs that whereas I am only ever talking through and around you.

Anyone who reads this thread will make their own mind up as to who drinks Imperial Kool Aid here. You are propagandised and proud of it. If you have any backbone - go read the 'Max Blumenthal' article I have linked to and see if you can digest it !

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

why don't you go read this:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

"Conservatives, Democrats and the Convenience of Denouncing Free Speech", by Glenn Greenwald :

"Westerners love to decry censorship aimed at them by Muslims while ignoring the extreme censorship they impose on them."

I shall read you link. If memory serves me right, Ayan Hirsi Ali, is Nial Ferguson's partner and both are doyens of the The US Conservative Libertarian Right 'Chatteratti', though considered pretty shrill, strident and doctrinaire in Europe. Link for a link - fair exchange, no robbery.

ps : Re. "And shadz never did condemn senseless acts of violence until here." [from below] - "Until" ?! Nope. I had said that before our exchange here as you'll be able to verify hopefully.

e tenebris ...

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

you apologist for Muslim extremism you . . .

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

That is the biggest b.s. remark I have ever heard from you ZD.

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

really? because I'll tell you what I think is bullshit - you have yet to condemn Muslim extremism - which is the inspiration of the cartoon. And shadz never did condemn senseless acts of violence until here.

That's what is bullshit.

A little perspective, in case you missed it the first time, or even the second time:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Dutch politician forced to go into hiding after the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, responds to the Danish cartoon scandal, arguing that if Europe doesn't stand up to extremists, a culture of self-censorship of criticism of Islam that pervades in Holland will spread in Europe.

.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

You're dishonest and see : http://occupywallst.org/forum/yeah-it-must-just-all-be-because-of-the-video/#comment-833985 for insight into where I am clearly coming from. You need to calm down.

Shameful, ignorant and bullying invective won't ever cut it with me. You show your nature. Sadly.

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

LoL!

you're the one attempting to bully me man - and being shamefully igna.rant.

but that's alright tho - I still support your right to free speech - even if I don't agree with it.

you apologist for Muslim extremism you

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Your last line is offensive to me and you seem to imply that talking back to you and actually opposing Islamophobia, somehow constitutes "attempting to bully" you. You need to to refind uoy 'Zen', dog. You are as irrelevant as I am here as ultimately only the arguments and the salient points really matter. As such, try to engage your head and heart and consider the following :

The USA was held in high regard throughout the muslim world for most of The 20th Century. It was seen as a new nation which had overthrown its colonial overlords and liberated itself to be into a democratic, progressive country where faith and hard work could uplift people. US science, engineering, culture and education was respected and its stance on 'Godless Communism' was hugely respected and admired.

However despite the mass perception & sentiment, The US consistently sided with the most reactionary and autocratic elements of the monarchies, sheikhdoms, emirates and dictatorships. All the while, all progressive, liberal and leftist forces in the society were violently repressed for decades. Arch US allies & The Al-Saud Gangster Monarchy have promulgated a strident, hard right, illiberal Islam as The Al-Saud family clan cult (Wahabism) has been pushed as a faux 'Islamic Orthodoxy'.

The people see the alliance of their rulers and The US. They know their oppression. They chaff. They see the nexus. They react. Senseless violence & mayhem are to be condemned ; there's no justification for murder but alas these events have their root in history & actual socio-economic and political realities.

There is a push for conflict on all sides but good people resist everywhere. An important & relevant link :

"Inside the Bizarre Cabal of Secretive Donors, Demagogic Bloggers, Pseudo-Scholars, European Neo-Fascists, Violent Israeli Settlers, and Republican Presidential Hopefuls Behind the Crusade".

This is a powerful piece by the consistently incisive Max Blumenthal but it is only for the clear sighted, open hearted and strong minded.

cave canem ...

[-] 1 points by GNAT (150) 1 year ago

It does appear you hit all the major religions. I liked the Jesus meets Neut, the most.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Not even close.

There are the Buddhists, the Sikhs, the Taoists, Zoroastrianism might still be practiced - I can't remember.

Wiccans . . .

and lets not forget the money worshipers . . . they have their own religion too. It is the practice of corruption . . .

[-] 1 points by GNAT (150) 1 year ago

Wiccans . . .

..wait, wasn't that an invention of Crowley back in the 60's (lol)

[-] -1 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Won't happen - he seems selective about his prejudices about other people's prejudices !!

verum ex absurdo ..

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

well okay then

I guess I'll take them down

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I really like that cartoon!

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

Any religion that can't poke fun at itself is a cult.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

Consider : ALL religions are cults !!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

I know and I'm sorry that I lack a better, more accurate term for::::::

Groups of people that react poorly to dissent.

Hell, the NYPD is a freaking cult.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (18252) 1 year ago

"N.Y.P.D." = Not Your Police Dept. !!!

SOLIDARITY @ OWS re # S17 et al : http://occupywallst.org/tag/s17/ !!

per ardua ad astra ...

[-] 0 points by yobstreet (-575) 1 year ago

Bullshit - the NYPD is a "gang."

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

They are fully capable of being both.

In fact, gangs often are cults.

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Partisan Powers is a good example of a gang using banning as their assault weapon and method of bullying those with different opinions as themselves, and as a cult of people who fetishize Obama.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

We're all partisan.....derp.

The rest is conspiracy theory.

You have a lot of those.

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

yes!

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs regarding spirituality, their own opinion regarding what any particular sage of days past may have said -

but to enforce those beliefs on others, to refuse criticism of those beliefs when they deny the rights of others -

that is the nature and essence of intolerance.

I find intolerance simply intolerable.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

It's not really the religion itself, but the propagandists within it.

[-] 1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Have you read the Qur'an?

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

I try and avoid such concentrated, purposed propaganda.

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

You shouldn't comment on it then.

[-] 1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

Why not? I've argued religion with Muslims before.

I'm still alive...........................

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

You said the problems did not lie in the religion but you have not even read the Qur'an.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

The problems always lie in the religions propagandists.

It works for all groups who react poorly to dissent.

There is no logical reason to pick an ancient book apart.

There just isn't.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

The problems don't lie with religious propagandists, the real problems lie with the fake epistemology that is religion. When people follow a book based on pseudoscience instead of following logic, then there will always be some that use it for gain of power. You cannot argue with religion because it is not based on logic, science, or truth. As long as there are religions, there will be those who abuse them. It's part of the religious lie. We must stop accepting religious thinking as being a form of valid thinking. It's not. Religions are very dangerous. They destroy logical thought and lead to people abusing power.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

With proper propagandists, any group is capable of these kinds of things, religion just makes it generally easier.

That's the magic of propaganda.

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

The root problem is with the false epistemology of religion which creates the lies, not the passing along of the lies. As long as their are religions there will always be people profiting from being able to interpret them as they please. There is no right way to interpret a book based on a false epistemology, that's the problem.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

Yes, I did finish high school and more and it's obvious that you finished liars school.

Now, take your lies and irrationality somewhere else.

Take your fucking narcissistic puppets with you.

I have to get my wife some yummo's for the cats now.

So please, stop with the endless bullshit.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

People believe in all sorts of false epistemologies and don't exhibit such violence.

Just look at the irrationality of thrashy.

It's the propagandist that pushes for that violence.

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

You're comparing my "violence" with that of Islamic terrorists? You make my point. It's this type of uneducated simple minded thinking which hinders American and worldwide progress. Can we even speak of thinking? It's more like you reply to all my comments with uncontrolled animal-like emotions.

As per usual, you just throw around logical fallacies: red herrings, ad hominem, bad comparisons, etc... You name it. I think you've used them all. It's all you got.

[-] -1 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

No, just that a good propagandist could use your false epistemology to drive others towards violence.

That's assuming you are that person. The irrationality helps, but is not necessary.

You're a bit of a propagandist in your own right, so whatever, you're not fooling me.

G'nite now. Have nice day.

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Did you finish high school?

[-] -1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I haven't actually done a formal analysis of the book, the culture, or its leaders - so I can't say to what degree current propaganda efforts distort the teaching and what portions are in line with the teaching.

The Christian text is similar, in that it has been used to condemn gays, subjugate women, and instill hatred for non believers. I think the Crusades have helped cure us of much of the last item - but not completely. And repeliccans are perfectly happy to hitch their wagon to that religiously inspired hatred any time it's convenient.

Ignorance really sux. Yes it does . . . Matt

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

If you are the great representative of Democrats, then you prove with this post that they are no better than Republicans. You speak of tolerance but show none. You have a shallow understanding of how religion, economics imperialism and colonialism intertwine in history.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

WTF?

First off - I'm not a representative of any party - and most likely the Dems would resent any suggestion otherwise.

Second - I get the idea that geopolitically the U.S. has a horrendous track record from at least the 1950s forward - Iran, Chile, El Salvador, East Timor, Viet Nam and Cambodia - I get it.

I also get that the pulpit has, throughout history, been used as a tool of social organization, of population control and management - we see it here in the U.S. today; we have seen it in Europe with the Crusades and the history of the church in European politics.

Don't sit there and tell me it is any different in the mosque.

I won't believe ya.

They just weren't as successful during the course of the last century in using the mosque to spread their economic interests, primarily for two reasons:

  • the fall of the Ottoman Empire

  • the oil didn't start flowing until the mid 1930s, and U.S. / European interests kept a lid on it.

The fall of the Ottoman empire left the moslem world too disorganized to pursue colonial interests, then the end of WWI marked the decline of the old form of colonialism.

And no, I don't have a lot of tolerance for the intolerant. I find it intolerable.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

First of all, the Islamic world is not a monolith. It is the second most populous world religion covering the entire globe and is the main religion of 49 countries. Muslims are made up of many different ethnicities, cultures and languages. Second of all, your depiction of the history of Islam and how it relates to the West is much too recent. The relationship goes back much farther than that.

To understand the ravaging affects of colonialism I recommend Albert Memmi's "The Colonizer and the Colonized." And, to understand the hubris of the West in judging and demoralizing the East read Edward Said's "Orientalism" and "Culture and Imperialism."

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Sure - so what. None of that justifies the ignorance and intolerance coming out of the Mosque today.

Before you freak - consider:

There are over 7 billion people on the planet - and the POPE insists that all family planning be left entirely up to god . . .

That's just ignorant.

It's ignorant! And yet - by comparison, many, not all, but many Muslim clerics are far, far worse:

.

As the horrific attack on the Sikh temple in Wisconsin showed, no society is secure from the occasional outrage by a violent bigot. As a new report from the State Department demonstrates, too many governments around the world practice, countenance or acquiesce to repugnant and even deadly religious repression, and many of these are Islamic nations where Christians and Jews are frequently targeted.

Communist nations also top the list of religious persecution in the International Religious Freedom Report for 2011. China (cited for deteriorating protection of religious freedom) and North Korea (“Religious freedom does not exist”) were named as chronic violators of religious freedom, as were Iran, one of the world’s biggest troublemakers, and Saudi Arabia, ostensibly a U.S. ally but also a proponent of the puritanical and anti-Western Wahhabi brand of Islam.

Egypt offered a window into the Arab world’s treatment of religious minorities. The “Arab spring” upheaval unleashed passions once contained by the authoritarian rule of dictator Hosni Mubarak and opened the way for the rise of Islamist politics. While the country’s new rulers issued anti-discrimination edicts, their practice was often something quite different, the State report found. The Cairo government not only failed to curb violence against Coptic Christians, it perpetrated it. For example, 25 people were killed and 330 injured, mostly Copts, by Egyptian security forces last fall.

Coptic Christians were arrested for “insulting Islam,” Muslim mobs burned churches, and at times local officials blocked or delayed repair or construction permits for Christians. In a classic example of bureaucratic understatement, State cited “indications in early 2012 of mounting Coptic emigration.” News reports have told of tens of thousands of Christians fleeing Egypt.

.

.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

An agnostic and near atheist myself, I am no defender of religion. However, I do understand that humans, in trying to understand their own lives and deaths turn to the mystical for answers. Also, when suffering economic, political and social oppression they cling even more so to religion to give them hope. Is it right? No. Does it work? No. Do we need to understand this in order to try and correct things? Yes. I think so.

The problems in the Middle East are largely over land, how it was divided, who has what, and control of resources. The strife shows itself in the face of religion but the deep causes are more economic and social to begin with.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

they cling even more so to religion to give them hope. Is it right? No. Does it work? No.

You cannot prove that. And in fact, providing hope to the hopeless is a very humanistic thing to do.

The problems in the Middle East are

based on education. It is not taught that each of us is human, that each of us bleed, each of us has hope for a better future for the next generation.

Yes, the past has a direct impact on the thought and the behavior of people today - that does not explain how large groups of people can be manipulated to violence over something as small as a cartoon.

It's a question of cultural acceptance and education.

It's currently acceptable on a cultural basis for shia and sunny to commit violence upon one another.

[-] -2 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

I'm anti-religious and an ignostic.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

You mean ig-norant?

[-] 0 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

No, I think it's you that is ignorant of ignosticism. That's normal, you rely on your American education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Changing your replies again? Disingenuous you.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21472) 1 year ago

Please. Give us a break.

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

You accuse of me being ignorant because you don't know ignosticism. I think it's you that should start reading and give me a break. You are the ignorant one and you throw name-calling my way for no reason at all.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17704) 1 year ago

It's irrelevant. Just like thrashy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41HgXjNDPPo

wikipedia for religion.

What's that?

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

Ignosticism is not irrelevant, it's a valid point of view towards religions. Calling someone ignorant because you don't know something like Ignosticism is what is irrelevant.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Interesting.

God is that thing that Jesus connected with when he set the entire Roman Empire on a course of conversion

[-] -3 points by Orwellwuzright (-84) from Lockeford, CA 1 year ago

So in other words it's all the white mans fault? Sigh...you leftists are are just too damn predictable.

[-] -1 points by Orwellwuzright (-84) from Lockeford, CA 1 year ago

I hate to agree with you but by and large you are right.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

I'm alwayz right.

Haven't we had this conversation before?

[-] 0 points by Orwellwuzright (-84) from Lockeford, CA 1 year ago

No.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

no . . . .

noNoNONO.NO!

.

.

ahha

I have proof!

There is a first time for everything . . .

[-] -1 points by TomJerryAndPatsy (-37) 1 year ago

We should not tolerate nor respect religions. They are a false epistemology based on lies, and, as such, they only hurt human kind. Children get brainwashed by religions everyday. It's a crime. We must get ride of religions as fast as possible. Humans must prone logic, science, and truth, not fairy tales made to empower only some people with what they believe is the "truth", a "truth" used to justify hating others who have a different "truth". The fact that men want to kill because of a drawing is a testament to the dangers of religions, to the dangers of false epistemologies.

[-] -3 points by Orwellwuzright (-84) from Lockeford, CA 1 year ago

Oh! Now you've done it! The politically correct hide their head in the sand people are gonna get mad at you!

[-] -2 points by ZenDog (13173) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

Someone is always mad at me. fuk'em