Forum Post: For 50 years the LEFT has Lost the War for their Fear of Violence - Just Saying
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 9, 2011, 5:30 a.m. EST by owsleader2011
(304)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Just saying folks cuz this debate is so one sided, and the OWS crowd is generally so young, but this whole non-violence gig has been going on the since the 1960's and I haven't seen one damn win for the left in 50 years.
The founding fathers said that every few generations that blood would spill.
Our government was designed for such.
Non-Violence is fine, but the occupying power is violent, the SHEEP will only overcome with violence.
Just saying.
Good luck for an un-armed man telling an armed man to drop his gun, maybe happen's in fairy-tales or on TV, but not in reality. In general the armed take what they want, when they want. The US Marines are taught that their gun is an ATM card, and what they see is theirs. Unless the LEFT understands the mindset of power they cannot win.
Probably the one great thing, that right-wing knows and escapes the left wing is the masses still have that right-to-be armed in the USA . Unlike almost any other country where the citizens don't have that right.
It's a fact the LEFT has made no progress against the right, but keep up the talk, and talk, and talk, in the mean time the POWER ( GOLDMAN-SACHS ) will be sending the man with the GUN out to kick your asses. The cycle has no ending. He who has the GOLD makes the rules, and GOLDMAN-SACHS owns the US Government. That's why today Corzine can steal $3 Billion and say "I don't know where I put the money", and the US senate just responds 'Thank You'. Because under Goldman-Sachs rules Corzine is a 'made man' in the sense of the Mafia.
There's only one way out I can see, but it ain't got NOTHING to do with OWS, its only cuz the US-DOLLAR will collapse and GS can't pay the cops anymore. That's the only thing that will kill the police state. If the dollar don't collapse then the police state will just continue to get more Orwellian everyday, cuz GOOD-MEN don't run for office in our country, and good men don't run the cop-shops.
All US power is sociopath, and psychopath, those folks only understand one thing 'force'. Power like GS knows that you make the biggest BULLY in the playground the cop. You can't take the BULLY down by be rational, sweet, kind, or intelligent. The BULLY only understands FORCE.
it's not so much understanding force
as being moved by it
This guy is correct. phychopaths don't bend to talk and simple nonviolent protest. That is not to say violent action is essential. It can also be done through non-violent action of the type which puts a hurting on those who you want to bend, but does not involve throwing bullets or setting things on fire.
Consider for instance taking down a power line. That is basically non-violent, although that may cause a violent reaction one needs to be prepared for.
Consider for instance civil suits......
a fight is a fight if you want to start a war violance is neccesary in the future they might be smart and caring enough to defy violance but right now we have to fight our hands might need to get dirty if we are willing to create a better world for our daughters and sons.
we need devils, so that the angels of our time can soar beyond all measure
meh
There is a growing number of first time gun buyers so obviously people are waking up and getting armed just in case.
I own one gun, a sidearm. But I paid $100 ($45 + the cost of ammunition) to get trained on a fully automatic AK-47. I hate violence, but I hate living in a police state even more. When this revolution turns bloody, which it will (or eventually fizzle out without accomplishing anything), we will need to be ready.
For $100 bucks you think you're 'trained' ? I encourage you to further your education in firearms in every way possible, but realistically, my 13 year old nephew can field strip, re-assemble, load and fire the 3 full auto weapons his father owns, including an AK. His Dad makes him earn every round he fires by doing chores around the house, and a straight A report card gets him 100 rounds. Oh yeah, the kid has to hand-load every round ( Dad or I supervise this very closely.) Have you joined the NRA yet? I would also vigorously encourage you to participate in one of the 'Project Appleseed' events held around the country.
You don't need an assault rifle.
History shows the most effective weapon is a small pistol (or knife) that is easily concealed, can be fired quickly, and then concealed again as the patriot slinks away into obscurity. See Archduke Ferdinand plus the Cold War era assassinations.
THIS is a police state: www.npr.org/2011/12/07/143269442/a-brutal-detention-and-a-defiant-syrian-activist
wait,
do we currently have a draft, or not?
I say the left has made certain progress without recourse to violence.
I say:
Very profound sir. Thank you.
well, it does happen once in a while - most folks think it happens by accident, as if I fell in the deep end or something.
LOL! We all have our moments of greatness I guess. I surprise myself on occasion as well.
We all know the US MIL has the draft by choice, back when they forced people kicking and dragging that didn't want to be there, versus now where it may be the only way a black or brown kid can make a better life.
Most professional military men I know didn't like the draft and prefer a volunteer army. That said there is the philosophical question of making the son's of the 1% serve as well, and now that it ain't mandatory for all the 1% sure as fuck ain't going to send theirs.
There are several primary arguments, the draft is MORE fair for all is the biggest argument.
The ONLY reason I responded to this ZD is I wanted to make a POINT, that the LEFT didn't WIN this one, its that the US-MIL, the Marines, the Air-Force, they didn't want to be stuck with a punch of pussy's, they wanted to pick and choose from men that wanted to be there.
You may see the end of the draft as a victory for the LEFT, but the military machines saw it as a new day. Now they have the machine they want an army 100% of paid mercenarys.
The rich have the MIL they want NO fear of their son's losing his life.
It's a win for everyone but the POOR, as its mostly the poor who sign up because life doesn't give them other choices.
Lastly the draft ended because the war ended and the men were brought home. The USA was functionally broke post Vietnam War, and the BIG BRASS didn't want a bunch of panzy asses to baby sit, next war came around and it was a volunteer Army, something that every mercenary could love.
Win for the LEFT? I don't think so, nobody cares for the left, and certainly the Military don't want them.
In summary historically going back to the Jefferson Democracy it was seen as everyone duty to serve and it was seen essential the RICH&POOR alike serve, today we have a scenario where only the POOR serve.
Notice in the last 30 years there has been NO PROTEST about war? Why?
Cuz the left only protests when THEIR rich white ass is on the line, they don't give a fuck about the poor. Just like now does OWS really care about the POOR? I don't think so.
I'm surprised if your a real soldier you don't know about these arguments? Or are you just another avatar here to fill the void?
I've never served in uniform.
while you make an interesting set of arguments, the claim that the left has achieved nothing in the last 50 years is I believe false.
Claims that the end of the draft was perceived as a victory for the DoD are also, I believe, false. Perceived is a key point here, for though the advantages are obvious, they don't always play well in people's minds. The outpouring of anti-war sentiment that lasted until the conclusion of Viet Nam became a significant curb to war planners for two decades.
You make the following statement in the OP:
Clearly suggesting the left as a whole embrace violence as a means to an end. I have no doubt, just as there is on the far right, there will be those on the far left who are simply too impatient, too angry, too self-indulgent, to restrain their urge for blood.
It is not a viable strategy to persuade average Americans of the strength of our arguments. It also plays into the hands of those who prefer methods of oppression and suppression to curb our argument and so retain their grip on the levers of power.
Therefore,
I reject your argument in its entirety
simply because it begins with a false premise, and that being the suggestion, though not explicitly stated, that violence is the answer.
I repeat:
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Ghandi won and he didn't use violence. He just sat there and let himself be a victim, and won the sympathy of the Indians against the British. Same with MLK jr. who allowed himself to be abused, and won the sympathy of the Americans against the southernDemocrat racists.
And again in the 70s when the hippes allowed themselves to be abused, and won the sympathy of the Americans against the killing in by the Government in Vietnam.
That's three examples where non-violence worked. It can work again. As for the Founding Father they only resorted to violence after 20 years of peaceful negotiations. They only picked-up their guns when their government started killing its own citizens. i.e. Guns/violence is the LAST resort after you;ve already exhausted all other methods.
The five boxes of liberty (use in this order):
Passive resistance may work, but not nearly fast enough. Non-violent protests had no effect on the deterring wars against Iraq and Afghanistan, or changing the political agenda. Maybe a 1,000,000+ non-violent occupation of RNC and DNC will send a message to both parties.
Practical Deterrents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANJOEGCRJ4 [right click]
Don't forget the hotbox. That's when you make someone's cigarettes to hot to smoke and mess up the filter.
And the sandbox, where you kids throw stuff at each other.
Of course, there's a toolbox, but you guys don't know what's inside of those because you never worked.
I see OWS something like this. By next year, while you dummies are gearing up and sitting on your asses at various places, the more intelligent humans in the species will see you and just push you away like a bead curtain...we'll see you there and walk right on through because you are, after all, harmless and nothing more than decoration.
You people are window dressing and don't have the will, courage or strength to anything other than talk and sit.
Thank you for your statement. This is true. Violence should only be used to defend yourself from attack. Non violence can and has won battles. It is the only true way to peace. Do not use violence unless you have exhausted all other options. We can win with kindness and compassion. Blessings.
We can win with kindness and compassion. Blessings.
The one consensus that everyone has right now is that the West is finished.
That 1978 was the peak for Western Civilization, and its been downhill since, we're heading to a new dark ages. Honestly given the simple fact that it will be our turn in the future to be invaded do you honestly think that "We can win with kindness and compassion. Blessings."???????????????
Am I not entitled to believe this? Is this not my right as a human? I honestly do believe this. It is what I hold true. I will not tell you that your thinking is wrong. That "we're heading to a new dark ages." I do not believe this but you do. Thank you.
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Not once have I advocated 'violence' I just simply pointing out by the definition of insanity the LEFT has done the same thing over&over for 50 years and won NOTHING using the methods of submission.
You could say the same now, the kids who get sprayed with tear-gas perhaps are being sympathized? On the other hand the RICH are spending a fortune in the MSM to portray the kids as deserving their punishment.
If allowing yourself to be tortured was such a GOD-DAMN great idea, then how come it hasn't worked for the folks at GITMO? OREO-OBAMA promised to release them, ... and everybody knows their life is hell, and most were never charged of a crime, they just rot. Just like your suggesting rot peacefully waiting for sympathy? But where is that sympathy? Not from the ameriKKKan people.
Of course since your now playing college-101 I could say the same thing, War is Politics by other means, when all else has failed. But why does our government declare war first on the protesters? Before they even negotiate?
Today's USA is "boil the frog' the US public is slowly getting cooked alive, but to sedated to jump out of the pot.
The model here is eventually someone will pity someone and the ruler will turn around. Where is this happening? Today? There's hardly a good country on earth that doesn't torture or harm its own citizens. So who in the hell is going to sympathize with the US?
The best example for OccupyX, where X is what ever you want, is the BonusBoys in 1932. They occupied and they were killed, and it took 2 years for the US public to learn of the crimes, and HOOVER lost his election and FDR won.
So the same 'might' happen this time, some Kent State like tragedy takes place and then Obama loses to who Gingrich? I sure as hell don't see the DNC bringing anybody more credible forward to replace the OREO-OBAMA is to the right of BUSH1&2.
With regards to the Vietnam War we lost, we didn't Win cuz of hippy's getting beat up by cops, the USA got its ass kicked and came home. Sympathy from whom? Then as now most american's had NO sympathy for the dirty hippy's. The same was done of the bonus boys, the MSM told the public they were dirty and unmoral. That they deserved to be beaten and killed by the US ARMY.
I'll agree that MLK, and Ghandi, in there time and place, and I love to read Thoreau. But if you study real revolutions you don't see many cases where the 'submissive' & docile win.
What will happen is the US Dollar will collapse and the Federal Government will implode. Then the States will return to power and we all get a new chance to reform the government. Fortunately most state constitutions say the people have the right to abolish their government.
If the dollar doesn't collapse then the USA police state will just continue, the frog will just continue to be boiled. My model is the Dollar collapses and cop retirement's collapse the police-state implodes. Today maybe 10-20% of the US public is a COP of some kind, 56% of the citizens get a government check, too many people are dependent upon the status-quo, that's why there will be no revolution.
Our only hope of CHANGE is the collapse of the US Dollar.
Personally, I'm all for survival of the fittest. The Police State you refer to, by the way, is actually owned by the people and it is locked and loaded not on government but on the radicalism that would challenge the American Way, which, is uniquely defined today as a way of non-violence.
The loss of Vietnam is something the American people shall never forgive; to toss the bodies of 57,000 young Americans on the ash heap of meaninglessness for the sake of satisfying a Jane Fonda is cowardly, IMMORAL, and despicable - we could have won that war.
By the way, a cop was just shot and killed at the University of Virginia; he had five kids... is this the less docile means you were speaking of?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mkRFCtl2MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
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I don't care about left or right, rich or poor, top or bottom. To me its always been about corruption.
But I really do think there needs to be debate, just like the MIL does they got plans for all possible cases, thus I think its essential that we too debate all possible scenarios.
It's easy for people to talk about Peace, and non-violence I think its the most difficult thing to get a coward to talk about violence. For normal men, destroying other men ain't natural, but the problem today is abnormal men control our government, law enforcement and military.
Tell ya what, you bring Emma, I'll bring a Louisville Slugger, and we'll play 'anarchy' for as long as you last.
Nothing like on topic reply, this is what makes OWS such a special place.
If you want to learn to play Anarchy ... You got read a book and learn the rules of the game.
http://www.amazon.com/Anarchism-Other-Essays-Emma-Goldman/dp/0486224848/ref=pd_sim_b_4