Forum Post: Flat Tax is a Scam! Fight the Infiltrators With Some Common Sense!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 12, 2011, 9:37 p.m. EST by Lork
(285)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
If the Flat Tax rate were ever instituted it would be horrid. It would actually lead to LOWER taxes on the rich!
Example Country -
Suppose the Flat Tax did get implemented. Everybody pays 35% of their income. With the addition of living expenses, sales taxes, etc. and the stagnant or declining wages of the poor and middle class, the new 35% flat tax takes their toll on the middle class and the poor get shafted worse. The rich - untouched.
So the middle and poor class demand lower taxes. So taxes go down to 10%. Now the government LOSES money because -gasp- the rich are paying only 10% of their income! With the revenue from taxes lost, the country is forced to turn to "austerity" and the government has no money to operate their regulatory agencies and provide basic social services that conservatives love to take for granted. The government is "starved" and the condom breaks.
So it's either
A. Kill the middle class and make it just Rich and Poor.
or
B. Kill the government and turn into a full blown corporatocracy of Rich and Poor.
Either way - the rich win. The government is a condom (albeit a thin and permeable at times condom) to protect the middle and poor classes in -some- way. So they hate the government because the rich are the STD. The middle class -can- be used, but you take too much from the middle and the middle will scream to the government. Plus - damn those dirty social climbers! How dare they!? So the rich don't necessarily hate the middle class but they hate the "audacity" that the middle even exists. And the poor? Well not even the middle class gives a shit about the poor what with their "big dream to be rich someday!" so the poor are completely "harmless".
It's a great scam they're running here.
And btw - no it is not -spoiled- to demand higher rate of taxes from someone who makes $10 mil a month let alone a year. Especially since they are the same people who stole our jobs after buying our government for round after round after round of Rape Trade Agreements. Yeah that's right - RAPE TRADE!
More on Flat Tax -
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/
Solution - (along with ending "Free" Trade or at least going for an actually fair version of it)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-trickle-down-raise-taxes-on-the-rich-thats-the/
We also have Rico who is a supposed "defector"...who is FOR the Fed AND FOR the Flat Tax Scam...
http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-percenter-ready-to-join-if/
Beware...
You are right - The flat tax is a scam!! Here's some Common Sense:
http://www.osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-a-flat-tax-costs-the-poor-more/
With the fair-tax, there would be no income tax, no capital gains tax, etc... The only tax that would be implemented is a national sales tax around 20%, that's it. It taxes consumption alone; therefore the net of taxation would be FAR greater than that of our current taxes. We currently do not tax those who get their money through illegal activities (drugs, prostitution, etc), so therefore we would be taxing them anytime they make a purchase.
Our income would be far greater (no income tax), business owners will have more money to pay their employees and expand their business (no capital gains tax) and we can save MORE money UNTAXED!! The fair-tax is brilliant, transparent, and easy to understand, it will LIMIT government and will eventually ELIMINATE the IRS... Do your homework before you bang on it. http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
This kind of tax is not fair so long as wages remain unfair. It only compounds the problem making it so that people with means can buy goods whereas people without cannot. In the end, it would wreck business in general and result in a shortfall of revenue for the government due to a lack of consumption. Additionally, any motivation to consume, which is essential for the economy, would die off. It will limit government because eventually the government will no longer be able to function. This method is like curing a starving man with hunger.
The average income tax rate is about 20%, out of every dollar you make 20 cents is taken from it. With the fair tax, 20% is taken from whatever you buy, not added to your purchases. Wages are unfair because of the amount of money you give right back to the government, SS, medicare, etc.
Take ten minutes and watch some of this video http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
I understand. But in the case of a sales tax, as soon as there is a downturn, there is a difficulty raising revenue. That alone becomes a very real problem. I realize that people dont see alot of their taxes go out but that might be a good thing in some cases.
I never denied it would limit government. In fact - that is it's goal in the second or third phase.
Also - LOL. Consumption? Then that is even worse and will DEFINITELY hurt the middle class and discourage consumption, which we need. How are you going to have a thriving economy if no one buys? That is like two birds with one stone....you'll kill the middle class AND the government.
RAISE TAXES ON THE RICH. END "FREE" TRADE. (oops too late Obama just passes three new FTAs one of which would export our Tech Industry so that we can have their beef and pork industry)
Why is the majority of the USA acting like a battered woman?
1) You're still going to have the people who go out and blow their whole paycheck, in turn paying more taxes. Then you're going to have the people who decide to save their money, and it's great because they can do it untaxed. 2) What I like most about the fair tax is that it eliminates capital gains tax, which means more profits for small business (which I'm sure you know is the biggest employer of our citizens) AND gives the incentive to bring business back to America, which is what I feel we need most at this time. What benefit is it to tax our businesses to the point where its cheaper and better to take their operations elsewhere? 3) The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes... You want them to pay even MORE? They became rich through hard work, patience, and making their own luck.. Which is the foundation of the American dream. People need to stop waiting for their hand outs and take responsibility for their own lives and families.
Then a rich person who lives conservatively will be sucking up all his or her profits without giving back. Unless this comes with a "personal consumption of business owners" chart so that I can boycott them for not investing in America I am against this. Plus this would ALSO tax the necessities of life and the poor will have the ever-loving shit fucked out of them. Selfish.
I know a better way to do this - stop subsidizing, tax cutting or in any way favor the multinational terrorists. Better yet - bring back tariffs on imported crap and stop subsidizing shipping costs. Remove oil from speculation market. Then if businesses don't want to pay tax they can have two solutions - either pay taxes or hire legal American workers. Then you can get rewarded for helping America with lowered or no taxes! Also - Can we please crack down on Double Irish Dutch Sandwiching criminals like Google? Globalization, with all its benefits, have also mostly opened the floodgates to madness.
You're only looking at federal income tax and capital gains tax lawl. The poor pay no capital gains tax because they have no capital. While the BURDEN of federal income tax has mostly shifted to the rich the RATES are much higher for the "bottom percentile".
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/30/top-1-paid-more-in-federal-income-taxes-than-bottom-95-in-07/
(Compare chart 1 which is burden to chart 3 which is RATES - By this argument there is NO POINT in taxing the middle and poor! By this argument we should be taxing THE RICH AT HIGHER RATES! Poor choice of argument there chap)
But don't worry. That argument conveniently forgets that the wages of the rich have soared while the middle and poor wages have either stagnated or decreased or turned to zero or negative altogether. The chart does not count the cost of living, fees, bills, utilities, payroll taxes, sales tax, social security payments (thank you Bush for robbing us clean! Ha ha ha!), gas payments, car payments, cell phone bill, mortgage, debt, etc.
Plus - do the middle and poor class not pay the rich with labor and blood? (Remember the wars) Do they not pay the rich through consumption of goods and services? If we didn't work and buy from you you would just be another broke person who wallows in self pity everyday.
Don't kid yourself. The TRUE 1% got there through being the lieing, cheating and thieving conmen that they are. The right to work employers are no better either. To the few honest and decent businessmen - I am glad that you haven't been crushed by the multinationals yet. Fight on.
1) The rich give back when the consume.. The rich consume at higher rates than anyone else, employ more than anyone else. 2) Yes, stop subsidizing, I agree with tariffs to an extent, because in doing so you will, in essence, being making Americans spend more money on having to buy solely American. Of course hire legal workers, and with the fair tax those illegals will be paying tax on everything they buy, thus increasing the "net" of tax. Double Irish Dutch Sandwiching criminals lol (I like that one) 3) You're charts just state the obvious, thanks. (What about payroll taxes?)
In your perfect world, how does one get rich?
Oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAWxFadQmOY
A lobbying video...you might as well have sent me a pro-NAFTA or a pro-Walmart commercial.
The rich YOU described will consume less and less and less, taking and taking and taking. I still stand by my "let's have an employer consumption chart" thing.
Hahaha yes I agree keep jobs here! And Double Irish and Dutch Sandwich are the actual names for the tax schemes that Google used to save billions in taxes. All made possible thanks to globalization. (Two tax havens - Ireland and Bermuda.)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/21/130727655/google-s-tax-tricks-double-irish-and-dutch-sandwich
See chart 3. The rates for the rich are still substantially lower than the "bottom percentile" Which means that by your argument there is no point in taxing the poor and middle classes. Payroll taxes - you pay income tax more than once a year. (although you do get a refund) They take it out of your paycheck.
How does one get rich? Well we can start by ending this "Free" Trade foolishness that absolutely kills smaller and domestic competitors. And come now - Making $2mil a year compared to $10mil a year isn't poor unless you're only trying to get rich to join a special rich people's club.
Either way you won't get that with the Obama administration after three more FTAs without even stopping the other FTAs and especially not under the system of tax that you are proposing. If you are at most middle like I think you are you will be strangled even more. I hope you don't get strangled.
I feel we share the same ideals on certain aspects with one exception: how money flows through an economy. With the fair tax, the poor have just as much incentive and capability to save as the rich, their taxes are exempted up to the poverty level.
Have you ever seen an episode of Cribs? You have people buying cars, house expansions, basketball courts, indoor swimming pools, etc.. All in which are taxable and they have to pay someone to come do that.. They have people cut their lawns, trim their hedges, cook their food, most likely have a gas guzzling car(s)... You act as if they just sit on their money and do nothing with it. No income tax, more money to spend (or save, it's their money they should be able to do what they wish with it), in addition a 20% sales tax that they pay every time they make a purchase (which is obviously a lot) As for a chart, there's no way I can supply you with something like that, I'm looking, can't find one.
And with that tax you will absolutely kill consumption and screw the everloving-shit out of the poor. (When they buy necessities)
There is a phenomena among the rich where they live very poorly and would look like any Average Joe when you walk down the street. And yet they are millionaires. He is -not- consuming and investing as much as he earns. This -WILL- kill the economy if everybody does this. And Cribs is a rare phenomena. Granted they are trashy, but at least they spend and create jobs and demand.
The only thing this will achieve is to make the cost of living higher, discourage the spending that this economy desperately needs and kill the middle class and the government. 20% sales tax? In what universe is a poor or middle class person going to be able to afford that? The highest we ever go for is usually somewhere around 10% -
http://www.forbes.com/2011/02/17/average-sales-tax-rate-record-high-shopping-arizona-25-highest-sales-taxes.html
You are suggesting a tax hike on the middle and poor class, when the middle class right now is in danger of becoming poor. THIS IS NOT FAIR. When you tax the middle class - with what money will they invest? With what money will they be able to afford school? How will their kids be affected?
And I can tell you right now - I am FAR from someone who lives like an MTV Cribs person (although my dad -did- buy a gas guzzler during the housing boom...against the wishes of everyone in the family. -sigh-).
You are suggesting that the US punish the "bottom percentile" for being poor. This is just like the karma system of India during its caste days. (You were only born a beggar because you were an evil man in the past life! Be virtuous today and you will be reborn a rich man in the next!)
Punish success? In what universe is "only making $2mil instead of $10mil boo hoo!" "punishing success"? Because that is what the 1%ers have been telling me while proposing tax scams like this one. And if you're one of the 99% it is dangerous for you to buy into this.
EDIT - Also - It's my money so stop trying to tell ME what to do with it. Oh and please stop stealing it through FTAs and such...
And I'm not saying the current system is perfect, reform is vital... but taxing the rich even more is not the way to go especially when they are the ones spending their millions (along with their current high tax rate), and employing our community.. What motivation would there be to be a business owner and millionaire, when you could work half as hard and still be well off. The incentive for growth would not be there.
From the way you're speaking you do not sound like a true 1%er. Please stop following that damn carrot for it will never come to you. My father is exactly like that and he still has no job, depends on my mom for money, keeps screwing my family over for one crazy scheme after another making all our lives more complicated, still has delusions that he will be "King of X" (from when he first came to the US to his new dream of being "Agricultural King of Brazil" after the move to a new state screwed over the family...again.) and will never grow up, much like Willy Loman in "Death of a Salesman".
When we came to the US of A for the first "lottery ticket" he was around 30. He is now 50 years old and has never stopped acting like this. He is still that poor 30 year old man, although waaay better off now thanks to my mom. The only time he ever succeeded was as a real estate agent when we had the housing bubble back then.
Also Also - http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/#comment-70544
Sorry it didn't work out for Pops... but that's the risk that comes with a free market. When one has wealth it is up to them to insure that wealth and re-invest. My mom was rolling in dough during the bubble (real-estate agent) and when it popped she didn't have another job for 3 years, just living off me and my dad. But what we did right is owning assets, getting new jobs, and investing with thorough research and hard work.
Please don't think I'm rich by any means, I'm 22, live at home, and pay for ALL of my own college expenses (and I am able to do so through scholarships, working, and saving), but I still believe in the American dream, and when one thing doesn't work I don't blame it on those with more money than me.
The true problem lies within the fact there is too much government, we can't keep bailing out big companies and spending tax payer dollars to save the ass of a big company when they fail, for they should fail just like the average joe who owns his own business. Taxing the rich does nothing besides decrease the incentive to be rich, thus decreasing growth across the nation.
Also -
Most of the uber rich make most of their income from capital gains and dividends -
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/140599307/does-buffett-rule-add-up-for-obama-deficit-plan
The NPR article is a bit misleading. 50% is still very regressive compared to the post-War era. (where it was 90%)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/#comment-70544
http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/96summer/p96su10.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,155487,00.html
So let's see...back when taxes were "high" we had a moon landing, the creation of the highway system and the microprocessor for three things. Therefore it did -not- kill investment.
Also - you'll see the most regressive tax area to be somewhere around the late Coolidge and the early Hoover era. (Even more regressive than we are right now by around 10%)
I think you know where I am going here.
Meet The Great Depression
http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/depression/depression.htm
There is just no excuse. The 1% have no excuse at all.
What if your company fails because it got crushed by the multinationals who also used anti-competitive regulation and subsidies to keep themselves at the top?
And you got new jobs? Grats...not everyone is that lucky these days. It's one of the things that OWS is about. My parents can't afford to invest, because if there is anything we have ALL learned it is that the stock market is unpredictable. Plus - we don't have enough to invest anyway with the cost of living and all.
I am against bailouts I agree. Let's prevent more bailouts and subsidies by ending "Free" Trade.
The OWC needs more people like you to deliver a clear cut message to the media... The reason I joined this site is to get an understanding of what ya'll want, and I'm struggling to find what that is because there is SO many (often ludicrous) ideas being thrown out there... I don't agree with a lot of what you are saying, but there some are things that I do, and that's what great about living in a free country. We can compromise on ideas and figure out what we need to do to make our country and quality of life better. Round up your posse and get singular, clear cut message to deliver to the media and your representatives
Oh! And let me cite a source for his argument
http://ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_11
Oh - And please don't say moon rocks. Please don't. =[ We really -do- need investment to become great again.
class envy - not productive
why not elect only officials that will sign a contract to act as they promise once in office, then sue them for fraud and jail them if they don't. Our politicians - on both sides - are running a scam. They say whatever it takes in their area to get elected, then they play the game to make themselves rich once in office. When is the last time you saw a politician who wasn't rich?
Except that the uninformed are always falling for scams like this. So in a way the rich will still win.
We need education.
Oh and -
exporting jobs and depressing wages and rights while making crazy profit and THEN turning around and calling the middle class and the poor "spoiled" - sleazy theft and worse than unproductive....it is killing
"Except that the uninformed are always falling for scams like this" - what do you mean? Falling for scams like what?
Scams like the Flat Tax Scam which result in a scenario like I posted in my original post.
Scams like "Free" Trade with the promise of new jobs as a service economy, but instead TAKE American jobs and money and send it to horrible slave places like China.
Scams like "Lower taxes on the rich! Because YOU are close to being rich someday!" that result in bigger class disparity and weaken an already permeable government which was our only condom against the parasitic and cancerous multinationals.
Scams like "Right to work" states that falsely promise more jobs...unstable, dangerous and low wage jobs while demand still goes to China (just went to a clothing store a few days ago - Texas was not even ALLOWED to be on a label...it was just China, Vietnam, India, Bangladesh...).
Scams like "Let's lower our tariffs here so that the multinationals can invest in America!" which leads to a broken promise from the side of the multinationals and EVEN MORE relaxed regulations and EVEN GREATER profits for them.
And who can forget the straw that broke the camel's back...
Scams that deregulate the banks and promote unsustainable borrowing all in the name of "spend spend SPEND to promote the economy!" (China's economy ROFL)...which finalized the financial crisis we are in now which led to...
The Housing Bubble that boosted real estate temporarily (some people invested money in houses to "make their money grow" - can you believe it?)...and resulted in mass eviction (tent people) and huge foreclosures that brought down the property values of their neighbors who were already being squeezed by the balls pretty bad.
Fuck You. Class envy my ASS. Class war my ASS. Trade war my ASS.
You people are scum.
the housing bubble was caused by our government forcing banks to lower lending standards. That causes 1) more loans 2)housing prices to rise-the bubble 3)more defaults - foreclosures
this is from 2005 - the cause: http://thehousingbubble.blogspot.com/2005/05/congress-acts-to-lower-lending.html
Bingo! Deregulation! xD
The government didn't force the bankers to do -anything-. If anything the robber barons lobbied our government to allow them to massively seize assets through the bank.
8 years of Dubya...can you believe he actually won the second time? Ha ha ha!
if we did what I suggested - elect only officials that will sign a contract to act as they promise once in office, then sue them for fraud and jail them if they don't, you could likely have a right to work state and a union state, - which would probably end up like MI -lol
Urrghhh....you....fuck....4chan....gck!
Okay then let me show you a picture of what happened - Oh better yet I can tell you!
A whole bunch of idiots elected Obama WITHOUT fully researching his actual platform and WITHOUT checking for candidates from Third Parties ALL in the name of preventing the "greater evil" called John McCain. (Although McCain -was- a greater evil...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOZKeOauNI
(I totally should have signed up for that...it's WAY better than the $2 an hour I am willing to work for now!)
The result - We got a President that put us through another costly and pointless invasion (Afghanistan and yes he DID promise to "invade Afghanistan" to 'kill Osama Bin Laden'). We got a President that bailed out criminal bankers and businesses that were either KILLED by unfair trade or run to the ground by incompetent CEOs. (Solyndra made me sad...The Big 3 made me furious.) We got a President that absolutely killed single payer in favor of subsidized Private Health Uninsurance and back deals with drug companies. Best yet...we got a President that just passed three more job killing "Free" Trade """""""Agreements""""""""...of which NONE of the 99% agreed to.
Before Obama "won" I actually went to his campaign website. He was and is FAR from a Progressive. He was FOR cap and trade. He was only for civil unions. He was FOR invasions. Those are just four things. What I saw was a right-leaning centrist.
But do you know what all my classmates saw? "Hope". They thought he was a Progressive. They thought he was a liberal because Fox demonized him so he's good right? He's on our side right? WRONG.
Does that answer your question O Mighty jdog?
Your Humble Djinn - Lork
EDIT - I did not write "He was only for civil unions". Oh my - somebody is editing my posts! Go away Obama shill!
EDIT to EDIT - Wait - yes I did nevermind. I just mislabeled it. Post reput!
lol- we both dislike Obama and McCain, but I am for less regulation, fewer government employees (the government produces nothing), and having our representative actually represent us - we should be their bosses, not the other way around. More regs, more gov't employees, more programs, typically mean more powerful politicians.
I despise First Party conmen, but feel sorry for the fear-driven morons that vote for them in the whole "Us vs Them" fight.
Less regulation? I am for removing the regulations that kill small competitors and startups, but if it's for something like safety inspection I am for it. I am sorry but do you want CJD, salmonella, listeria outbreaks to be commonplace? I meant more so than they are now. Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" for more of this. I am also against regulations that help monopolies (especially those bloated multinationals) too. Read Ida Tarbell's "The History of The Standard Oil Company".
Yes the state of our public school teachers are atrocious. As much as I am for some unionization there is a point when we need to stop and that is when quality goes to the shitter while prices soar like an eagle. (Such as the case with Big Pharma and Big Health Uninsurance) Plus - remember when they couldn't catch Osama for like...almost a decade? LOL HE WAS ON A FUCKING RESPIRATOR TOO!
If we want the govt to be our bosses then we need to make sure that our bosses aren't the 1%. Because the way we got where we are now is because of a combo of -
A - Stockholm Syndrome (We don't deserve to be treated well!)
B - "Carrot on a Stick" (Hey! What if -I- get rich someday?)
and
C - Scamming through misinformation. (Which is the usual tactic for people who aren't broken enough for A or stupid enough for B. Although A can fall for C and B will let it happen.)
glad that you are a thinker and not a zombie. While we will never agree on everything, I think we are both capable of learning new things. I am far from knowing it all. The more I learn, the more I realize there is to know.
gonna practice some music - later and best wishes
Same here although I always feel like a zombie.
See ya!
you seem pretty mad, but I did not say anything about any of those things... I said "class envy - not productive
why not elect only officials that will sign a contract to act as they promise once in office, then sue them for fraud and jail them if they don't. Our politicians - on both sides - are running a scam. They say whatever it takes in their area to get elected, then they play the game to make themselves rich once in office. When is the last time you saw a politician who wasn't rich?"
Oh so you're a troll who is trying to get me to repost. This isn't 4chan asshole - if you're not going to engage me in anything other than a circle job then GET YOUR ASS BACK TO /B/!
htttp://occupywallst.org/forum/flat-tax-is-a-scam-fight-the-infiltrators-with-som/#comment-79347
nope - i do not advocate a flat tax. Might be a good idea, but I am on the fence on that one....
lol
If you're a 1%er it'll just be business as usual. Fuck us low people over again right? Conmen.
If you're a 99%er I am so glad I talked to you. Alot of people here actually advocated this just because "Mister Buffet and Obama" endorsed it. They are the same people that call Bill Gates a "good rich guy" even as he is one of the scum sucking multinationals who shipped our jobs to India. There are plenty of talented people here - he's just a greedy and cheap bastard who hates paying fair wages.
The 1%ers are not on this site too much. They are probably looking through yacht brochures or telling the cook what they want for a snack. I would like to see more opportunity for people, and clean up the corruption in our politics - its starting to look 3rd world.
You're right my bad.
They pay people to spread misinformation and dissent. Silly me!
And yes I do agree with you on the last statement.
"I would like to see more opportunity for people, and clean up the corruption in our politics - its starting to look 3rd world."
Me too.
and btw - right to work simply means that I can get a job without having to join a union. If the union is striking, for example, and I need to feed my family, and a company wants to hire me to do honest work, why should I not be allowed?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/flat-tax-is-a-scam-fight-the-infiltrators-with-som/#comment-79638
Last time I will do this Circle Game for you 4channer. Last. Time.
Wow bitter?
Seriously though, I don't know how you can be for freedom and criticize right to work states. Why on earth should joining a union be a requirement for a certain job.
If people want to opt out that is fine.
Except that most right to works are formed out of desperation thanks to those multinational con artists. And do you know what? Now not only are we losing to these multinationals - We're losing our basic civil rights here! In a right to work, employers can fire for any reason, pay you shit wages and put you in dangerous conditions and if you sever an arm - TOO BAD! Do you know how many workplace injured people there are right now who have waited years and years and YEARS for their settlement to come? And that's if they are either brave or lucky enough to sue. (pro bono)
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-wouldnt-hire-any-of-you/#comment-53226
Under normal circumstances...WHO THE HELL WOULD WORK FOR A CUNTRAG LIKE THIS GUY?
Also - HELL YEAH I'M BITTER.
From one of the 99% - I'll see each and every one of you warlords in Hell!
If you are a good worker, no one will ever want to fire you. Anyone who manages people will tell you that.
Except that there are PLENTY of "good people" now, thanks to globalization. Even if you DIDN'T outsource, a worker with a superb work ethic and if he has experience - skills who will work for pennies is as common as giant squid in the ocean.
This place is becoming Somalia rofl.
Also - With the lack of demand lately...employers end up laying off anyway because the company goes under. Fuck those multinationals. Competition my ass!
We should take oil off the speculation market and stop subsidizing shipping costs too.
Also as for the fed see quadrawack's response to that 1%er and someone else -
quadrawack 1 points 2 hours ago
Rico,
Regarding the Federal Reserve banking system, let me see if I can boil this down to the simplest possible explanation. Here's an analogy.
Imagine you have a cup. This represents the Economy. Imagine you have a pitcher of water. This represents the Federal Reserve.
You pour 1000 units of water into the cup. This represents supplying the economy with money. You demand 1100 units of water back. The 100 units of water is interest.
Tell me how can the cup return 100 units of water back (interest), when only 1000 units of water was put in.
That is why many of us have a major, major beef with our monetary system, how it functions, and what it does. reply permalink
NachoCheese 2 points 2 hours ago
Simple analogy, simple reply (not insulting...just stating fact):
Because the economy is not a static value that your cup represents, but rather creates wealth from productive efforts...hence the term "to MAKE money". reply permalink
quadrawack 2 points 2 hours ago
Which I understand, but remember, that's 1000 units in circulation, yet 100 units have to be paid back.
Who issues that 100 units, when the pitcher didn't issue another 100 into the system?
That's the problem. Wealth from productive efforts have to be monetized, but the initial issuer only put in 1000. reply permalink
NachoCheese 1 points 2 hours ago
hence thay are created. again, the economy is not a static value as represented by your cup. reply permalink
quadrawack 2 points 2 hours ago
Who creates them? The pitcher or the cup? Because remember, the pitcher demands back 100 units... of water, or collateral. I understand it's more complex than that, but I'm putting this in simplest terms without cutting out too much value.
The value is created. But where does the 100 units come from to go back when the initial input was only 1000 units. Does the cup return it in the form of a part of it's glass wall for collateral? Or is the cup ALLOWED to manufacture 100 units of water, which today would be illegal, since the Fed has the monopoly on who creates money. reply permalink
NachoCheese 1 points 2 hours ago
no problem, this is the problem with complex topics as simple analogies...
the economy creates the additional wealth. are you asking as though an extra 100 units of currency are required by this scenario? reply permalink
quadrawack 2 points 2 hours ago
Exactly. In the entire system, it was assigned 1000 units of currency. The economy creates additional wealth. But there is still only 1000 units of currency circulating. Where is the other 100 extra units of currency, when the pitcher only put in 1000 units. I hope I'm conveying this simple concept clearly. I understand value. The question is what's used in the trade, and how did it get there. reply permalink
NachoCheese 1 points 2 hours ago
I am understanding you, and honestly I'm not sure (economics is not my wheelhouse), but I think you are wanting to take this somewhere, while you do, I will go ask an economist I know... reply permalink
quadrawack 2 points 2 hours ago
YES!
Thank you! I've studied the Federal Reserve and Fractional Reserve Banking (Chicago Federal Reserve Bank's Modern Money Mechanics Manual" for a long time, and one thing that frustrated me was trying to convey the concept of debt as money to people.
That's why I've tried to boil the concept down as simple as possible. But you get it!
Man, I'm glad now. :D Thank you.