Forum Post: Fight Poverty At Its Source
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 10:40 a.m. EST by Choicesmatter
(93)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Poverty's drivers are choices and immigration. While the kids are hanging out near Wall Street, another 6th grade educated Mexican just crossed our border. While the kids are airing out their sleeping bags, another illegitimate baby was born to a single mom. While a brat on a college campus was chanting, a high schooler dropped out.
Mass immigration of unskilled people, baby mamas, and drop outs are rocket fuel for poverty. While OWS takes cheap shots at bankers, these huge drivers go without notice. Let's see the protest move to outside the projects. Demand condom use and an end to reckless illegitimacy. Occupy El Paso should patrol the border. Occupy Newark should protest drop outs. OWS don't have the balls to confront real drivers.
well, yes... choices matter. Was it a choice for the child to be born to a single mother? Was it the Mexican person's fault that Mexico is basically in a civil war between the government and military versus the drug cartels and that civilians are almost always in the crossfire? And how did the situation in Mexico get so bad? Ask yourself that. If you believe in reason, you would know that a series of events led to these "drivers" of poverty. I will be the first to admit that there are indeed plain F*$# ups. But these "drivers" you speak of... are often the result of deeper issues. You are confusing causation with correlation. As for condoms, sure, I support their use: but with the constant cutbacks on planned parenthood and other organizations that give out birth control and other contraceptives, is it reasonable to just "demand condom use"?
Secondly, everybody has some sort of skill that they can contribute to society, even if it is manual labor. Does that mean everybody should be paid equally? No, not exactly... but you can't possibly tell me with a straight face that anybody can be 100 times more productive than the average human being. Machinery and innovation can be drivers of increased productivity... but not the person themselves. So why are people getting paid thousands of times more per hour than others?
Considering Bank of America defrauded its own customers out of billions, and the SEC has no power, legal or will, to make huge corporations pay back ill gotten gains, this is how they are more "productive". I bet many workers on Wall st. do work their asses off, I don't doubt it... but I sincerely doubt that they are literally 10 times, 100 times or 1000 times more productive than any other worker.
It's a choice of the baby mama and her baby daddy. We've created a set of incentives where that's a viable live. OWS should protest these incentives and demand better. They should set up camp outside a project until bad choices subside.
It's a choice of us leaving open our border. It's a choice of liberals to smear as racists anyone bringing up the obvious of importing poverty. It's a choice of conservatives to not give a shit that a slum is being built out across town just because they can hire someone for cheap.
Yeah, I can easily tell you that some people are massively more valuable than others in an economic sense. Almost everyone gets paid what they do out of free-will arms-length transactions. Sure, a few are insiders that can steer their own game. But that's not true for most high earners. I know plenty of high earners without any special power to determine their own deals.
the Elephant in the room is that the current excuse making of the poverty pimps is another large contributor to continued poverty, those who tell people that they have no chance by themselves and that the only way they can survive is to continue voting for, and supporting those who continue this constant barrage of how the "rich" are ruining the lives of the poor...when, by-in-large, the "poor" are almost totally unaffected by the situations in the lives of "the rich". Poverty is a state of mind, and a philosophy, not a permanent state of economic reality...those who think poor, are, or become poor, regardless of their economic situation, and conversely, those who "think" abundantly, and can maintain that mindset when confronted with difficulty and failure, largely become as successful as their internal beliefs allow them to be...I know this will find many naysayers, but the fact remains that it has been historically true, 2/3 of the fortune 400 are self-made, no inheritance, no privilege, just the right mindset and a willingness to persevere, and those who dismiss this as truth, place themselves, by their own choice, in the philosophy of scarcity...
Agreed. Black leadership in particular benefits from the situation.
OWSwers will never NEVER criticize bad behavior as a creator of the poverty and income skew they claim to hate. They let a population of increasingly feral people run free without a peep of criticism.
I thought this was going to be the practice of loan sharking the third world and a the military aggression
OWS bitches about poverty and income skew in the U.S., but then supports the things that make it worse such as an open border.
the borders would be safer if the US stopped international weapons sales
Global Arms Sales By Supplier Nations
39% United States
18% Russia
8% France
7% United Kingdom
5% Germany
3% China
3% Italy
11% Other European
5% Others
http://www.globalissues.org/article/74/the-arms-trade-is-big-business#GlobalArmsSalesBySupplierNations
Really? The number of anchor babies born at Ben Taub hospital in Houston would fall if we just sold fewer arms? Go figure, who knew.
How would removing Paco from our country stop business and bank corruption. ??? Illegal immigration is just a distracter. The country used to allow millions to migrate thru our ports to take up work here and our economy thrived. With more workers and jobs you create more demand for products and goods.
the country also did not have such an elaborate system of welfare
What welfare??? Guy down the street quadriplegic can't even get it what are u talking about oh corporate welfare.
It isn't a distractor. The average educational attainment in the U.S. today is about 1 year post high school. 6th grade drop out immigrants are now wildly below average. 100 years ago, 6th grade educated immigrants weren't that different from the overall workforce. That's why what happened before is a dopey comparison.
More workers, more jobs is true. But a job cleaning a toilet isn't the same as a job designing a building. True too, you create more demand. But how much demand does someone making $12k/year really drive and at what cost to our society?
We're building out an imported servant class. Poverty and skew is rising. If we add another 10 million drops outs via immigration, we WILL increase poverty and skew. OWS claims to be against it, but I call bullshit.
It must be enough to keep CEOs wealthy because they are doing great
It's great for some people. Getting servants, but then having the growing slum they live in on the other side of town works perfectly well for many of us. Liberals don't mind either. Sure, they bitch about inequality and such, but they lack the mental skills to make the cause and affect connection.
i dare you to watch this video and then say anyone is taking 'cheap shots' at the bankers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPWBkFL_h0
Sure, they are. They utterly ignore choices as drivers of poverty. Bankers are easy. But confronting some baby mama working on illegitimate kid #5, well, that's tough and something they simply won't do. They say greed is bad, but then say nothing about rank irresponsibility.
They also ignore other obvious things. You know, little things like borrowing money is a choice and pursuing a sociology major with $50k in student loans was a dumb idea. OWS talks as though free will didn't exist.
your mistake is you think all these people are poor.. none of the OWS are poor. these people have incomes between 50k and 200k, you are pointing out things that are self evident and if OWS doesn't happen will become the norm for most of the population. that is what the protest is about.. you are going to be poor.and your kids and thier kids.. if nothing is done to change the system. you did not watch the video.. this is soo much bigger than you can probably comprehend. we are not protesting poverty
I visited the occupy people in London a couple of weeks ago, both at St. Pauls and Finsbury Square. They were both, basically, vagrant camps of 20-somethings.
The message coming out of OWS is: Hatred of bankers, emotional neediness of protesters, lack of responsibility taking for debts, socialism, and then some issues about political reform.
watch the dang video before you make another comment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGPWBkFL_h0
I'm aware of all of that. We had a real credit bubble. The debt culture was pervasive. Institutions and individuals walked up their risk taking during the relative calm of the past 30 years.
I've seen RT a fair bit in Europe. That commentator is a nut, just in case you're curious.
Shut up, racist.
Yeah, that's the typical lobotomized liberal response. Bankers are easier. But find me a banker that's been knocking up baby mamas.
Illegitimacy, dropping out, and immigration are giant drivers of poverty. Turning some light on this reality would do everyone some good.
lets see.. bristol palin is a babys mama a loser - but,, cause she is wrapped in money shes a shining example for other losers. how do you combat that.
It is a problem. Now if her kid gets knocked up at 15 and her kid's kid gets knocked up at 15, then you have real break down.
OWS should protest that.
you think what the government did and the banks did have no bearing on the economic collapse? it seems to me it was orchestrated .. those people could not have been unaware of what would ensue.. but you want to say that this country eliminating 10 million jobs is not the issue.. everything will be ok if we just change the mid set of the lower 10% of the populace. maybe you are the nut.
No, it did. Things were very excessive and out of hand. The point is that it was pervasive. Institutions clearly walked up their risk taking, pervasively. But individuals did too. People put cruises and shopping trips on home equity lines. People got greedy about housing and stretched themselves too far to get in. College kids were complete idiots financing the crap out of very weak majors. Car leasing and loans rather than paying cash. Regular credit card debt. It was the culture of debt was good. Now it isn't.
it was theft and fraud and corruption, not 'out of hand' here is another video that maybe you are capable of comprehending.. and you will see that the people have been manipulated by the powers that be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks), will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.” Thomas Jefferson
What an idiot. What "drives poverty" is the 1% hoarding more than 40 cents of every dollar for themselves.
Immigrants ARE NOT our enemies. They are the 99% and so are we.
Go read some Ayn Rand, then go back to sleep, you ignorant racist fool.
Your glorious !% hoarders are the ones behind this OWS crap...Start naming the people of note supporting this....Look at the list of multi- million dollar people and corporations fueling this...Is the system bad?..Yes...It's corruption of all involved, banks, politicians, and the "evil" rich...You 99%ers are the pawns in a battle of greed and your not even seeing it..You have Hollywood stars walking among you...Why are they not giving more money to help the welfare system, to pay for your schooling, to help with social security? Instead they carry a sign and chant about the "evil Rich" people need to pay their fare share..Kind of ironic don't ya think? I just want to know why I am made to suffer more now that you OWSers started this, than I didn't when all the rest of this happened? My company closed down in the wake of you OWS people and moved across seas because you where attacking their integrity...They where great for our town and did alot to support our community... More than the government ever has, and you attacked them. You might have a good heart, but you're generalizations of corporate greed is hurting alot of good people..Greed will always exist, it will always be there.. To heap everyone into any category is wrong, but seems to be what you want..You seem to want everyone to be the same....Well, I don't want to be like you...I am happy with who I am, and how I spend MY money..Why do you feel the need to disrupt my life?... Nobody owes me, the bank didn't steal anything from me, Wall Street had nothing to do with my down fall...You did. You care nothing of me but talk like you do, hell, you don't even know me...Your issues are just that, your issues not mine..Grow up get a job and tell yourself how to spend your own money, stay away from mine.
Seriously, you're 5th grade math teacher would be ashamed of you.
People without skills have low incomes. Non-english speaking 6th grade drop outs cut grass, they don't design semi-conductors. The more servant-class people you add to the society, the more poverty and skew you create.
The people aren't enemies, but the demographic result of introducing huge numbers of uneducated poor people isn't surprising. Well, I guess to you it is.
People WITH SKILLS have no or low incomes.
BTW, Shame on you for even thinking in terms of a "servant class" you Nazi goon.
Don't you have an Aryan Nation meetting to attend?
The association of skills and income isn't random, cupcake. Try again.
Shame on me? Shame on you and your willful ignorance. What's below working class? It's a servant class. That's what it is. Hide your eyes and cover your ears, but it's still there and mass immigration is a major contributor to its growth.
Aryan Nation? That's just the typical lobotomized response of a liberal that can't reason. Does everything have to be pure emotion? Is thinking and reason even possible?
Try reasoning some time, it's a good approach.
Boycott Wal-Mart
You want Occupy to force Wallstreet to build schools on the border?
Why don't you write a letter to Goldman Sachs. Get them to invest in a little human capital.
Yeah, that's about how they'd see it.
An open border and 30 years of mass immigration of unskilled people has built out a new underclass. People without skills and education are obviously going to be low income. That contributes to income skew, something OWSers claim to abhor.
It's not like you built any schools.
Perhaps you should get Arizona to build them.
We've built plenty of schools. You should think too about how those schools get built. When mom and dad clean toilets and cut grass for a living, they pay virtually nothing in taxes. Schools need more than virtually nothing. So, the more servant-class people you pour into a community, the more difficult it becomes to finance schools (and hospitals) as the tax base averages down.
An open border has been rocket fuel for poverty, income skew, and wealth inequality.
Here's what raises the rent.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45292290/#.TskjGRfNmJ5
I guess your not building very good schools.
The more poor people you load into a community, the tougher it becomes to build appropriate education infrastructure. Lupe may clean the toilets at a high school, but her tax money will never help you build one or hire a math teacher. The more of that you do, the worse it gets.
Tell me about it. I live next door to Detroit.
It's not just an immigrant problem.
Very true. Detroit's problem is one of cultural breakdown, especially among blacks. But that's choices driving poverty. We under-write poverty with our programs and a whole sub-culture has developed in their wake. We have giant numbers of kids that can only be described at this point as feral.
But OWS doesn't notice and doesn't care. Choices are driving poverty, yet they are silent about those choices.
Poverty is not a "choice".
Where do you come up with this stuff?
Poverty is the result of choices. In the United States, bad choices explain almost all poverty. Sorry, it's just true.
Don't drop out, finish school. Plan pregnancy. Have children in marriage. Don't get a criminal record. Don't take drugs. If you get a job, take it. Learn standard English.
Stick to the list and it's really unlikely that you'll be persistently poor.
"Choice" is how Heritage frames it.
It's patently false.
A ruse to make you feel better about it.
Do some real research on the subject and stop using the term.
Most "choices" are an illusion.
No, they're really not an illusion. Demand better, stop giving self-inflicted poverty a pass. We might surprise ourselves if we restored a social standard that expected people to be something more than feral.
OWS hates greed, just not irresponsibility.
You state that, with absolutely no research.
Heritage propaganda.
That's all it is.
I've watched them them fall, with no real choice, only choices chosen for them by the chosen few.
The ones that sponsor Heritage and the like.
You need to do real research into the causes of poverty. It's a whole lot more complicated than "choices".
I will repeat one more time.
Poverty is not a choice.
You're a poverty apologist. We've made no progress on poverty since Great Society because the programs never anticipated the feedback loop of choices. We now underwrite bad choices and the poverty they stoke.
That's Heritage propaganda.
I know this because I go there from time to time to see what kind of marketing/PR they are practicing.
As usual you had no answer to what I said, just repeated the same propaganda.
You need to do research beyond those propaganda mills, supported by the people that thrive on keeping poverty at those levels.
The "choice" meme, being pushed by those mills, is the real excuse.
It makes sound so simple.
BTW WTF is a "poverty apologist"?
I didn't apologize for anything. Just trying to help you see through the fog.
This is the attitude of the sociopath
Typical liberal emotionalism. But tell me what I got wrong. Try reasoning.
If you want less poverty and inequality, at least have the brains to stop importing more.
I will remember that when you ask for a spot on the lifeboat.
You do that. In the meantime, have enough brains in your head to know that adding poor people to the country increases the number of poor people in the country. Want an open border? Then shut the fuck up about poverty and income skew.
But that was still just more liberal emotionalism.
Globalization .. Open your mind
We have a border and immigration laws. Check a map.
Mass immigration of no skill people expands poverty in America.
Last I looked America has sunken deep in debt. How has poverty affected the American debt crisis?
It makes it harder to find the productivity necessary to support it. As we load with people capable of only menial tasks, more and more of our recourses go to just elevating these people to our base standard of living.
It used to be that government taxed us for the services it provided us. Increasingly, government now taxes us for the services it provides to someone else. If you wash cars for living, you are NOT buying your own healthcare or paying taxes sufficient to help communities buy schools, build roads, establish parks, run a weather service, hire fireman and on and on.
Mass immigration of unskilled people expands poverty. Something OWS claims to be against.
If the system is not working , it will fail at any population size
To fight illegal immigration, you must punish those that employ them and entice them to illegally enter in the first place. To fight poverty in "the projects", it takes a cultural shift in the black community, but as most are unwilling to admit that it is a cultural problem, it is easier to sit back and call anyone who sees these issues as racist.
That "cultural problem" is the result of a 40+ year misguided war on poverty.
To fight illegal immigration, you do a lot of things including what you wrote. But ask OWSers, people that claim to be against poverty and skew, what they'd do. They'd just shout you down as a racist (although you're 100% correct).
You're right about the projects. People lack the nerve to call it what it is: cultural dysfunction. An OWSer would prefer to hector a banker long before they'd be willing to confront a true poverty factory like you find in the Black community.
OWS should march to a housing project and start chanting about birth control and better choices. Maybe they could even do that creepy talking in unison thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
Did you mean 6th grade-educated Mexican?
Yes, thanks. OWS should set up camp outside of public housing. Plenty of that in NYC. But they won't.
It doesn't matter what they demonstrate against, if all you are willing to do is demonstrate for change it won't happen. No one seems to want to get involved in the political end to make change happen. Environmental groups, civil rights groups, the tea party, all got people elected to push their goals forward.
True. But all those groups had a point. OWS just has vague angst and a bunch of 20-somethings with a need to belong to something.
Yes I agree, it's a vague menu of qualities being protested to bring in greater numbers. They will fade unless they try to define an agenda and organize a political movement beyond the shouting and camping out in parks. Too bad too, it's national and could possibly get things done politicly. Politicians listen to voters, this demographic doesn't vote that often so they are ignored.
I'm very well off and see problems too. But OWS is way off the mark. They remind of the serial protester types from college days. They're just so needy that they run after any cause that can be against something. Well, them and the lifelong moonbats that've always wanted socialism.
At St. Paul's, I was talking with a guy at his socialism table. He had his newspaper and other brochures. He was calling for strikes. I asked him who the strike would be against. He said, David Cameron. I asked him if the strike wasn't really just against people that didn't happen to work for government? Of course not.
Another guy was also very funny. His tent had writing on it from the last protest he was at in 2010.