Forum Post: Falling for logical fallacy makes you look like an idiot and makes OWS look like fools.
Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 14, 2012, 10:56 a.m. EST by richardkentgates
(3269)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The new troll tactic appears to be using a legitimate point in the beginning of the post or reply. Then they try to connect the popular talking point that you readily accept to another point that is unrelated an most time untrue. They know they are full of shit but you play into it without hesitation because they have tapped into your emotional connection to the talking point they prefaced the conversation with. By the end of the conversation, they have gotten you to play into party politics and you are now the one creating division for them. Stop feeding the trolls and pay attention.
I've often been accused of being a troll because I oppose any that think they are superior than their fellow human.
Wether it's a neocon that espouses uncaring for the less fortunate or self proclaimed liberals that tout ways they are supposedly superior in intelligence to self proclaimed conservatives, I WILL oppose them, always.
But in ways that we are similar, I will seek common ground.
When someone claims that they are inclusive of all viewpoints, they better be prepared when those viewpoints come to the table, or else they are hypocrites.
And when others wish to espouse freedom and individuality, they must also be aware of the hypocrisy of trading with nations(china) that hate democracy.
When I write I can almost hear my karma points dropping, but that's because I write not what I think others want to hear, but what needs to be said.
I don't want high karma points, I want my posts to bother people. If that makes me a troll, so be it. But if I make people to think, I've served the community at large.
You say that you oppose those who think they are superior to their fellow human, but when you call someone a hypocrite, does this not imply that you feel superior to that person?
And when you accuse the Chinese of hating democracy, do you not feel superior to them? I lived in China for a year, and it was not much different than living in the US. Most Chinese people are quite happy with their government and will defend it against those who put it down.
If you don't think so, visit this Chinese social networking site. There are many westerners there as well as Chinese people who speak English who you can ask about it:
http://www.shanghaistuff.com/profiles/members/
If you think other people need you to make them think, are you not, once again, considering yourself superior?
When I point out hypocrisy,it's not to 'be' superior, for just because I point out someone else's failings, doesn't mean I think I'm better, it is because, I, to, am a fallible human, and wish only the best for my fellow human.
And the same hold true with my feelings on china. We are subsidizing an evil government, that is exploiting a good people.
The chinese people are good people, it's government that forces abortions, stifles freedom, jails labor leaders, wreaks havoc on the environment, and kills it's opposition is truly evil.
As far as people needing or not needing me to think is a false dichotomy.
It's not me the person, that is needed, but the difference in point of view, for if only what we want to hear is brought to the table, then there is no exchange of ideas, and no need to think differently.
It's not about superiority of one over another that I seek, but that ALL ideas are brought to the table to be reasoned out equitably. Which also goes back to the evils of the chinese government.
For if the people of china are happy with their government, then why are the leaders so afraid to let them express it, and if they are happy with how their government is constituted, why are their leaders afraid to let them vote on it?
We are all humans, and none have the right to impose by fiat their will on others, without those others say so.
Just because the chinese government, or any government, can do a thing, doesn't make a thing right. And just because their government imposes order or provide for some good for the people, doesn't mean the co-related loss of freedom is worth it.
I suppose that the people whom you criticize for feeling superior could come up with justifications as well.
Before I went to China, I was worried about it being repressive or dangerous. Many westerners who go there feel the same way, but have quite different opinions after spending some time there.
What do you know about China and the Chinese government besides what you are told by western propaganda? Try visiting China, or at least communicate with some Chinese people, then you will know both sides of the story.
Try talking to a Tibetan.
I have talked a lot to both, and your rosy picture is by no means a universal. You have fallen into the fallacy of availability bias, and are generalizing from the particular based solely on your experience.
This is want Michael Parenti, an American professor, says about "genocide" in Tibet:
"Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that “more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation.”36 The official 1953 census--six years before the Chinese crackdown--recorded the entire population residing in Tibet at 1,274,000.37 Other census counts put the population within Tibet at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then almost all of Tibet, would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves--of which we have no evidence. The thinly distributed Chinese force in Tibet could not have rounded up, hunted down, and exterminated that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else."
Having lived in China, I did have the opportunity to talk with some Tibetans. While still being proud of their own heritage, they weren't particularly critical of the Chinese government.
Perhaps you have fallen into the same availability bias, that is, if you are only talking to Tibetan exiles, rather than Tibetans living in China.
If you read Michael Parenti's "Friendly Feudalism" you will understand why many Tibetans prefer the Chinese government to that of the Dalai Lama:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet
The Chinese are responsible for the deaths of 1 1/2 MILLION Tibetans. They are continuing a campaign of cultural and religious genocide there. They may NOT practice their religion freely, and their High Lama was kidnaped and disappeared, replaced by a Han appointed RELIGIOUS leader. It destroys the entire legitimacy of the religious hierarchy, upon which the culture is based. Hell the Chinese INVADED their country, then literally re-wrote the history books and maps to justify it! So some Tibetans are happy they have more paved roads, and consider that more important that their culture? Shows me that the genocide is working.
I have also spoken to Tibetans, and I assure you that your findings are anything but universal. The same is true for Chines folks. They are exiles for a reason, That reason speaks to the limited nature, not the universal one, of your experience.
That's exactly what I mean about the chinese government being an evil government.
I agree, the tibetan genocide is horrendous, but also there were the 'great leap forward' and 'cultural revolution' in which tens of millions died.
Actually, here's a link:
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
It's horrifying and staggering at the shear numbers of deaths.
It's also horrifying how many in the GOP and business world would whore themselves out to make money off of such an evil and murderous regime.
Your figure of 1.5 million is disputed. Its thought that there never were more than around 2 million Tibetan people.
I think you are mostly repeating black propaganda, intended to inflame westerners against China in preparation for a future war, that may not be too distant.
And what do you mean by cultural genocide? In old Tibet, only 5% of the people were ever allowed to learn how to read and write - that is cultural genocide. Now about 95% of the Tibetans are literate in Tibetan and some in both Mandarin and English as well.
In what way are they not allowed to practice their religion? I think they are just not allowed to force other people to practice Tibetan Buddhism or to become monks. You wouldn't want someone forcing you to become a monk, would you?
Old Tibet was a slave society, many of the high lamas owned thousands of serfs or slaves, so I think it was a good thing that their religious hierarchy was destroyed. 5% of the people, lamas and nobles, owned the other 95%,
If I was the slave or serf of some Tibetan lama I would be happy that the Chinese invaded my country to set me free, and many Tibetan people were quite happy about this. I imagine it to be similar to the case of black slaves in the American south. They were happy that the north invaded.
Both Chinese and Tibetans may be exiles for a reason as you say, and in many cases, it was probably because they were trouble makers.
We've ahd this discussion before, or are you forgetting. Reading and writing is something that was prohibited, at least in terms of Latin, by the CAtholic Church for centuries. It is NOT genocide.
No one in Tibet is being force to become a Monk. The very idea is a transparent absurdity. How devout are you likely to be under force? Becoming a Monk is considered a privilege. It is entirely voluntary.
Tibetans are not permitted to own or display images of the Dalai Lama. Do you have any idea what that means in terms of the religious practice? It is akin to Catholics not being allowed to pray to Jesus. or say their rosaries. The Lama who was chosen by Buddhist divination was literally kidnapped by the Chinese government. He has never been seen or heard from since, and is assumed dead. Because Tibetan Buddhism believes the Lama is a perpetually reincarnated elevated being, he is like a ten thousand year old Pope. But he is also considered semi-divine, and is prayed to. But replacing him with a government chosen poser, the Tibetans have no one to pray to for a whole generation. If that is not cultural genocide, what is?
Yes, at one time in the past, there were slaves. Same as here in the US. Should the US have been invaded and colonized? Should we have been forced to become atheists in the process, (or forced to be religious, or whatever)? An invasion and colonization, combined with a wioing out of our culture would have been unjustified. It is not more justified for China to have done so and are continuing to do so now, simply because you met a few happy campers.
The exiles are here because they are troublemakers? Certainly not the ones I've met. But if by troublemaker you mean they quietly yearn for freedom of religion and restoration of autonomy in their homeland, they must be troublemakers, however much a stretch of the definition would be.
You are blinded by a particular experience you had, and are using it to ignore crimes or rationalize them.
Regarding reading and writing, prohibiting somebody from learning these is "cultural" genocide, whether it is in Tibet or Europe. And these days, as you say, no one is forced to become a monk in Tibet, and that is probably due to the presence of the Chinese.
The Dalai Lama's main purpose is to represent the class of ex-slave holders from Tibet. You could think of him as equivalent to the president of the Confederate south, with more emphasis on the occult "grand dragon" aspect. Don't you think that some people in the US would be offended by honor given to his picture?
You are talking about the Dalai lama as if he were a god, and in fact, westerners originally referred to Tibetan Buddhism as Lamaism, because the Tibetans they observed were worshiping their lamas.
Regarding the Confederacy, it is good that the north invaded the south, do you call that colonization? I call it expelling colonizers. The Confederacy was heavily backed by the English empire.
The Tibetans aren't forced to be atheists, they just practice the separation of church and state like we do here. I believe that it is only communist officials that must be atheists.
On exiles, it depends if they were slave owners or children of slave owners. Or were they attached to the retinues of slave owners? That's who most exiles were, not poor serfs.
And are you not ignoring and rationalizing the crimes of the Tibetan lamas? What I have spoken of is not just my experience. Many academics in Tibetan studies from around the worlds know the truth about these things.
Wow, I read distortions on these fora before, but yours takes the cake.
If prohibiting reading and writing was cultural genocide neither Christianity nor Buddhism would exist today. Jews are prohibited by Jewish law from reading the Kabbala, unless ordained. that's not genocide. That's the culture itself.
The Dalai Lama is the spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism. he is considered to be semi-divine. That is their culture and their beliefs. denying Tibetans that right is the very definition of cultural genocide. You might not like their religion, but I don't give a shit, It is for the Tibetans to decide if they wish to continue the traditions and beliefs and PRACTICES, not you or the Han.
Tibet was NOT like the Southern US It was an INDEPENDENT STATE that was INVADED. That INVASION did not end slavery, which was long over by then. It was a LAND GRAB.
Tibetans are not practicing separation of church and state. When their spiritual leader is exiled, when the next in line is kidnapped and probably murdered, it is not a separation of anything. When the image of one's holy men, which are prayed to, are made illegal to possess and display, by pain of imprisonment, it is not separation of church and state. It is an imperialist invader's destruction of religion.
Whatever the past crime of the Lams may or may not have been, destroying the culture is destroying the culture. It is the definition of genocide, however you wish to justify it.
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/databank/tibethistory/tibeth2.html
http://www.c100tibet.org/Self-Determination_Reasons.html
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdl-tibet.html
http://www.tibet.org/Why/occupation.html
http://stason.org/TULARC/travel/tibet/C3-How-many-Tibetans-have-died-as-a-result-of-the-Chinese-o.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/23/chinese-open-fire-tibetan-protesters
Tibetans were not just prevented from reading a particular group of books, but from reading at all. Perhaps that is a kind of culture, but it doesn't belong in the 1950's.
Its fine if some Tibetan people want to worship a man as god, but the Chinese just don't want to require that all Tibetans must worship a man as a god. As you say, the Tibetan people should not be forced what to believe by the Chinese government, the Dalai Lama, or anybody.
Yes, Tibet was not exactly like the south, but like the African Americans, most of them were happy to be free. There are numerous slide shows about the life of slaves in old Tibet in the twentieth century at YouTube.
If the Dalai Lama is in exile, it was his decision originally. If he is going to be involved with the CIA and such, it isn't surprising that the Chinese government would be suspicious of him.
Tibetan Buddhism isn't being destroyed, its being preserved. The Chinese government gave 1.7 billion yuan for historic preservation in Tibet recently:
Tibet to receive 1.7 bln yuan for historic preservation in 2011-2015 - http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-10/26/c_131214291.htm
Adopting modern methods to preserve ancient Tibetan classic - http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2012-02/11/c_131404032.htm
Repairs on Tibet's cultural heritage sites to be completed by year-end - http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/culture/2011-11/23/c_131265202.htm
Man, it just doesn't stop.
The Chinese government is not benignly permitting the Tibetans to have a choice, they are FORCING them NOT to have one! They MAY NOT PRAY AS THEY BELIEVE THEY MUST. Tibet never forced belief or prayer. It is against the very core of Buddhist doctrine to do so.
The Dalai Lama was FORCED to flee to save his life. That is NOT voluntary exile. It is forced exile.
Historic preservation of buildings is not preservation of culture,but only the physical results of that culture's view on architecture. When that culture is not allowed to be practiced, it dies. That is what is happening.
What a bunch of lies, my knowledge is based on a lot more than what a few people say. Try reading Micchael Parenti some time, this is what academics in America think about the situation in Tibet.
,
http://occupywallst.org/forum/falling-for-logical-fallacy-makes-you-look-like-an/#comment-640295
I had studied the "Free Tibet" movement's literature for about 30 years before going to China and meeting some "yummy" people as you say.
Over those few decades, I gradually began to see that they were telling us lies. Then I quickly understand the greater extent of the lies by reading websites like that Michael Parenti, called "Friendly Feudalism". Have you read it.
the museum condenses cultural information
I'm sorry but I just don't share your assessment of the situation in Tibet. I used to see video clips of life in Tibet every day in China on the news. It just wasn't like what you are saying. I'm sure you will say this is just propaganda, but I don't think you are capable of seeing the propaganda in your own information as well.
Riiiiiiigggghhht. Officially sanctioned Chinese government news videos. They surely don't have any reason to lie. They WANT the people to know they are engaging in genocide.They NEVER do anything like censor information. It's like listening to Stalin report on how wonderful the Gulags were.
How about trying some international sources? The ongoing genocide is abundantly documented, and easily available as long as you're outside of China. Ever hear of the New York Times? How about Human Rights Watch? Christ, even Wikipedia!
Once again: Do you know why every single search engine In China come up with a blank page when typing in "Tibet"? Have you ever heard of the Great Firewall? Do you understand why Google refused to do business there? Gee, that must be because China is all about openness.
Did the Chinese videos also show haw they rounded up mothers and fathers of children who died in the last Earthquake simply because they were demanding an investiagtion? Did they show how people whose homes were destroyed to make way for the Olympics were arrested after they showed up - at the government's request - to fill out requests for compensation? Somehow, i don't think so.
Keep fantasizing about the beneficence and altruism of the Chinese State apparatus. When you're out of your reverie, come see me: I've got a bridge to sell.
arturo and Renaye are conspiracy theorists. They get all their information from Alex Jones and David Icke websites. They believe in the NWO, in FEMA camps, in a government using mind control to create slaves, in a "Global Elite" composed mainly of Jewish blood lines, and that most world leaders are Reptilian Overlords capable of shape-shifting to human form.
Don't waste your smart brain on their nonsense. Logic is foreign to both of them.
They should have been banned from this forum long ago.
There you go again, telling me more about yourself. Even making silly death threats and then accusing me of supporting genocide.
Thanks for the head's up BlackRose. It makes more sense now. These guys can connect the dots properly. You explain about genocide and their response is "no it isn't because roads are being built an their religion is stupid" . Amazing.
I think you are telling me more about yourself, than you are about me.
That reminds me, I just read an article recently claiming that there are around 5 million cases of multiple personality disorder in the US, as reported by psychotherapists, and something like 70-80% of these claim to have been put through mind control:
http://ritualabuse.us/mindcontrol/eas-studies/torture-based-mind-control-as-a-global-phenomenon/
There are more and more groups of professionals doing research on this now, and getting shocking results.
So what if Google is a search engine? They manipulate its rankings. YouTube ratings are manipulated as well.
Yes, I went to China also, and saw it for myself. I don't let other people tell me what to think about it.
You are fucking hopeless. What possible bearing does rating manipulation have to do with censorship by the Chinese government? I don't care if Google manipulates its rankings or not. It is a SEARCH ENGINE that Chinese government insisted censor sites relating to Tibet and Tiananmen square. It refused to do business that way.
You were NOT in Tibet. You were in a nice cushy area. You listened to state run propaganda for your news. You talked to others who had no idea what was happening in Tibet because THERE IS CENSORSHIP THERE. You are operating under a classic fallacy, and you are so wedded to it if it was smooshed into your face you would not see it. Sociologists call it Second order associative bias. It's a big term but it just means that you generalize everything on the basis of a few people you know. You learn something about people you've met and apply that specific information to people you DON'T know. It is fallacious. It's like having met some really nice young Germans in 1942 and because if it you deny that Nazis exist. And you cling to it like a pit bull who's locked its jaws on a bone.
I am done with you. I really don't think you have enough functioning brain cells to allow you to be honest. This conversation is pointless. Have fun clinging to your fantasies. Bye.
You pathetic conspiracy theorist. Go back to conspiracy theory websites where you belong. You should be ashamed of yourself. Supporting the genocide of the Tibetans could not be more anti-OWS. Die conspiracy theorist, die.
How old are you loser? Under 20 right? Damn teenager, go back to your sandbox.
What I saw were just street scenes in Tibet, you can see that on YouTube also. Just glimpses of life in Tibet that look completely normal and not unlike my own experience of life in China.
So if you think Chinese mainstream media is so questionable, why would you think the New York Times and Wikipedia are the gospel truth? How do you think things could have gotten so bad in America if the media wasn't lying to us?
Google is a propaganda machine, it is very active with propaganda here in the west and where ever it goes.
Are you not aware that the Chinese government has brought 100 million people out of poverty over the past few decades? And this is what the world bank claims, not the Chinese government. For this reason, I cannot think that it is so evil as you suggest.
Google is a SEARCH ENGINE. They would not do business in China because they were required to censor information.
America signed the Civil Rights Act. It created massive programs to fight poverty. At the same time, it was killing Vietnamese, by the millions.
What makes you so deluded that you think China isn't the same?
So sure, it brought 100 million people out of poverty. It also directly murdered or otherwise caused the deaths of another 150 million people. How wonderful of them.
I once had a girlfriend who was really nice to me but every one of my friends said she was mean. I didn't believe them. Until I finally saw it for myself. It took a while, because I was infatuated. That's what it's like when you're an adolescent. I was only a kid then. What's your excuse?
You say you care about genocide, but you don't say one word about the genocide of the Jews, or the Russians, or the Native Americans. They say 9 out of 10 million Native Americans were killed right here. But you choose genocide on the other side of the world as your cause. Chinese people see this as sheer hypocrisy.
I started looking at one of your sites, and it just seemed like a bunch of unsubstantiated claims. Some of it was probably true, but I can't tell how much.
I know there were labor camps in China, I had a student that was a guard for one. I know they have changed as well. Torture once was allowed, but not any more.
Or so they say, torture happens in American prisons too, though not officially. They just let the prisoners torture each other. Torture was not uncommon in old Tibet as well.
I knew you would have some righteous justifications for shouting, but I don't agree with you that Tibetans are going extinct. You say they just have pavement, but they also have hospitals, grade schools, high schools, universities, train stations, airports, power plants, factories, new houses and better farming equipment.
The Tibetans never had it better than these days. They also can be monks if they want, but don't have to if they don't want to.
Like I said, you're nothing but a lame conspiracy theorist incapable of logical thought. I'm sure you know that Neil Brick, the founder of S.M.A.R.T., has been debunked time and time again, and that he's spread lies to sell books and make a lot of money. He's currently defending a defamation court case against him.
Check your sources and stop wasting everyone's time on this forum. We don't want to hear about lame conspiracy theories. You people are mentally ill and extremely gullible. You believe everything you read on the Internet because of your acute cases of paranoia. Pathetic. Add the fact that you support the genocide of the Tibetans, and we have super pathetic.
Go back to the Icke site where you belong. You Reptilian Overlord.
What on earth makes you think that I care less about any form of genocide because I am against this one? My own family was mostly wiped out by genocide, and perhaps that's why I care as much as I do. The "unsubstantiated claims" are very well documented. (Human Rights Watch is one organization that documented the abuses carefully.) I won't look further for links to that documentation, since you clearly don't give a shit anyway.
The person who has been and continues to be, utterly unconcerned about genocide in this conversation, the one to has justified it, rationalized it, said it is OK because they have new roads, and implied that it is a stupid religion anyway, is YOU. I object to YOU. I object to your nonchalant dismissal that it is occurring, because by golly by gosh the Chinese people you personally met are so gosh darned nice.
Well, those people are NOT the government. And those people are largely held in the dark.
The tibet culture and religion is being destroyed. Their system of belief is hierarchical, and when a government destroys the religious hierarchy, it destroys the practice of that religion. When it destroys the foundations a culture rest upon, sets up a puppet as spiritual leader, that religious structure loses legitimacy. When Monks cannot pray to their saints without going to jail they are monks in name only.
The Tibetans have never had it worse that they have it today, not materially, but religiously and culturally. Their culture is dying, being subsumed by the now-majority Han living on their land and imposing their values, forcibly. What do you think the protests, self immolation, and riots led by Tibetan Monks in 2008 was about? Happiness for about a better sewer system?
All the material goods in the world don't change the fact that Tibet culture is being systematically destroyed. Just ask any Native American. Yes, hospitals and roads are good, but the destruction of their people and way of life, the confiscation of their land and forcible killing of their very language is not. That's the process that going on now in Tibet. All the evidence is there. You choose not to believe, not because it's not real evidence, but because you just don't want to.
There is NO justification for genocide. Not roads, not hospitals. NONE.
You see? I knew you would have a justification for your foul language. You're not likely to convince anybody of anything that way. Keep it up, it helps the cause.
You justify slavery because you think Tibetan mysticism is cool.
You refuse to go to the links and read. You are stuck in what you want to believe because you had a nice experience and met some yummy people. The very existence of the Tibetan run site's I pointed to belies your assertion that Tibetans are overjoyed about their Chinese masters.
I don't care about Tibetan mysticism as much as I care about genocide. You, apparently don't mind seeing the destruction of a culture as long as new roads are built. I happen to think shouting is perfectly appropriate when when someone thinks pavement is more important than the extinction of a people.
Why do you think the average Chinese citizen is universally blocked when they type in "Tibet" in a search engine?
You "Free Tibet" guys always like to use obscenities and SHOUT. I thought you people were supposed to believe in non violence. I would think that you would have better manners. But I'm sure you must feel some justification for using obscenities, why don't you tell me about it.
The Dalai lama can return to Tibet when he wants to, he just has to behave himself. For now, there is the current Panchen lama, he is doing a good job making reforms.
By the way, if you hate the Chinese government so much, you may get your chance to have a war with them soon. Just go to Google or YouTube and look up "China WW3" or "Iran WW3".
The western oligarchs want to take over Iran, so as to control the oil China needs, or provoke a nuclear war between the US vs. China and Russia, so as to reduce the world population to less than 1 billion people.
You,know, it's really annoying as hell repeating something over and over because a dolt like you keeps ignoring what is said.
Sure the Dalai Lama can return to be thrown in prison. As to behaving, all he has to do is not perform a single function of a Dalai Lama. All he has to do is kneel down to Chines masters and help them preside over the destruction of his culture. The current Panchen is the one the Chinese forcibly installed after KIDNAPPING and murdering the real one chosen by the Tibetan people. You are an idiot. And a completely unethical one at that.
You justify genocide because you had a good time in China and met some really neat people. Despicable.
For the Chinese, praying to the Dalai lama is like praying to a slave master. They don't believe it is in the interests of the Tibetan people to permit this.
Regarding the comparison of Tibet with medieval Europe, the whole relationship between a lama and his slaves was based on doctrine. If a slave didn't "believe" in that, and wanted to leave his master, he would be tortured or killed.
I didn't look at the links you provided, but if you provided just a few, with titles, I would be more likely to do so. I have probably read most of that already though, I used to be a "Free Tibet" guy with the bumper sticker and everything.
The Tibetans are free to live their culture. If the Dalai Lama abandoned them, they just need to move on and find religious leaders who are willing to lead them into the modern world.
"For the Chinese, praying to the Dalai lama is like praying to a slave master. They don't believe it is in the interests of the Tibetan people to permit this."
I don;t give a stinking goddam SHIT what the Chinese view is on praying to the Dalai Lama. It is not THEIR religion or culture. They have NO RIGHT to impose those views and criminalize a religious practice on OTHERS! That is GENOCIDE!!!!!!!
The Dalai Lama did NOT abandon the Tibetan people. He chose to LIVE so he could function on their behalf from across the border. He would have abandoned them by letting himself be MURDERED, alongside the TENS OF THOUSANDS of other who were during the INVASION.
The Tibetans DID find their religious leader. The Chinese government KIDNAPPED and probably MURDERED him.
You have swallowed the Chinese propaganda machine's Cool Aid.
How do the Chinese force the Tibetans not to pray? I've seen videos of Tibetans praying in temples, praying while walking and spinning their prayer wheels, doing prostrations, circumambulating the Jokhang. I have a friend who traveled in Tibet and saw it for himself.
Don't you think Tibetans were forced to believe in old Tibet? It was the same in medieval Europe, nothing strange, it just doesn't belong in the 1950's. Tibetan Buddhism had much to do with demons and levels of hot and cold hells that were used to terrorize poor serfs and slaves into obedience.
Didn't you look at the links? There is also preservation of texts. The Chinese government even subsidizes Tibetan monks. Its the only form of Buddhism that receives this subsidy in China.
And what about Tibet University? It has 1,500 students in Tibetan studies. It even offers basic to advanced Tibetan for foreigners:
http://www.study-in-china.org/School/Tibet/tbun/programs.asp
Tibetans pray to teh Dalai Lama. They use his image to do so, nuch as Cathilcs use images of Saints it heir practice. By criminalizing his inage, the Chinese have dissalloewed a fundemental method of prayer.
By forcibly replacing a ceremonially ordained High lama (the second in line to the Dalai Lama) they have effectively cut off the spiritual head of the entire religion for the next generation.
Medieval Europe is not the same as Tibet. People there were converted at the point of a sword. Non believers could be burnt at the stake. That is not Buddhism. Any comparison of the two in terms of coercion is false.
Did you look at the links I provided? The rapidity os your reply indicates that you didn't.
I think it's really great that tibetans are allowed to study "Tibetan Studies". It's too bad they are not allowed to live their culture freely, but only study it as history.
I am beginning to think you actually don't understand what the term "cultural genocide" means.
I don't consider you a troll. Nor should you be concerned with anyone calling you a troll because they disagree. I apologize for those who cannot accept differing points of view.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
I don't see you as fitting the definition.
Oh, sometimes, I can be trollish, and sometimes I feed the trolls, I do sometimes seek to provoke an emotional response, to get people to think.
You won't do much educating that way.
Sometimes it's about educating others, at other times it's about getting them to feel some thing, anything really. For it is the callous indifference of our fellow humans that I battle.
So sometimes I reason with people, at other times I knock them off their pedestal, then when they are on the ground with us mere mortals they can be reasoned with.
But the problems of today are because of a lack of emotive, lack of caring, blind arrogance and hypocrisy which is why sometimes an emotional response is called for, and generated.
I do try to weave this together in as coherent fashion as I can manage. But as a hairless ape, I know I fail as much as succeed at it.
I just hope to slip on fewer banana peels than what I throw.
lol, this is natural behavior. Not trolling. Sorry you feel like a troll but I have seen your posts and you're just a passionate person as far as I can tell.
I mean, we have to have enough confidence in ourselves & those who largely support the ideas espoused by OWS, where we're not worried about every yahoo who comes on here, who have deluded themselves into thinking they have some grand scheme that will persuade us into adopting their thinking. Seriously, chill out with this silly targeting trolls bullshit. First of all, it's sort of futile, and secondly, we should welcome anyone who wants to step into the marketplace of ideas, and have confidence in our own intelligence.
Hmmm. You're starting to sound like someone else I used to know.
so true so true - hard not to get drawn in - but occupy already aligned themselves left - too late to turn back now (do you ever listen to right wing radio - they've already asigned you left?) I've found myself at odds with this from the start but too late - but not too late to find common ground - this means you'll have to open yourself up to center issues as well and be open to discussion. Screw corporations - it's all about station... This movement is about the have -nots because most people who have are too busy watching television right now with their 380 channels or busy shopping and don't care very much about all this crazy politic-ing. Damn straight it's class warfare - but we welcome any sympathizers to the cause and promise we won't scratch your nice fancy cars like they do in New Zealand - where they view them as bragging.
What if this post is a troll tactic?
Conspiracy theory!!!!!!!
hahaha
I think it is.
People really need to be on guard for this "bait and switch" tactic. Once you recognize it, you can readily defeat it. At the very least, once they realize you have a background in logical fallacies, they will usually move on to some other poor defenseless contributor who is less well-armed.
I recognized all the logical fallacies flying around these forums early on. That is why I put the below link out there, but it has received very little attention/comment apparently.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-are-all-unthinking-apes/
trolls often leave
lol, maybe the title has something to do with it. You have to think like an advertiser when you choose a thread title.
Point well taken. I probably could have come up with something better than to call all of us "apes". Kind of a turn-off I'm sure. Actually I was hoping that it would arouse some curiosity and more people would tune in. But you never know about people.
rather think like a wiki
Wikis require that you know something about what you are looking for and that you look for it. If you want your post to gain attention, you need to get people's attention. That is not the design or purpose of a wiki. They are for information purposes exclusively. Any other use of a wiki is an abuse of their purpose and a show of why freeloaders prevent socialist concepts from functioning properly.
huh
Wikis are intended to share information, not to garner attention or support. Just information. Garnering attention for a subject or issue denotes bias. Bias has no place in information structures. I cannot make it any more clear than that.
thanks
be careful of these guys who got issues with the size of their fallacies.
"makes OWS look like fools" what a sweeping statement,. all the many varied individual people who support OWS look foolish because some forum participants fall for troll tricks? Who looks foolish?
people who think there are trolls look foolishly dumb - even if you think there are trolls - it's kind of like asking if anyone else can hear the voices - you know? Paranoia divides - it's a fear tactic and one you may be imposing on yourselves ???
Troll describes an individual who acts in a certain manner. You may decide to act as or decease acting as a troll, at will. It's a behavior description.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".
Incessant messaging, flooding threads with multiples of the same image as to make the thread inconvenient to read or respond to, and abusing the voting system with multiple users under a single individual or by external software, may be construed as trollish behavior.
Why do you think they have to post signs at the zoo to not feed the animals? Because people do it. Why do they do it? Because they enjoy it. It can be fascinating, or horrific, or funny. Just like feeding the trolls...
I don't find giving positive reinforcement for bad behavior as amusing as you do.
I dont go to fox and engage them. i wont be a troll on their sites. But if they come here, and im in the mood to spar or poke, then i will not sit back and let them spew their nonsense unchecked. And if i get to let off some steam from frustration over the crap going on in this country, then all the better. Additionally, it forces me to do research to support my ideas, pare down my thoughts to the essence, and form cogent arguments. Finally, it helps to expose irrational ideas or someone who drops talking points without having reasoned them out to a conclusion or researched where they come from.
As a final note, I ve been gone for a while and dont recognize the trolls names, but I wont be run off from a discussion because a troll pipes up.
Not being pushed around and bumping threads that are created intentionally to create division are not the same. Please try to discern. Thats all I'm asking of anyone.
What you're talking about then is not challenging the views of those who oppose us and actually take enough to take time to discuss and might be seeking something and just don't find what they want because they see nothing but extremes
richard, I think you are a good guy, with some points I agree with, but ive got a dad already who knows better than to question my judgement. If I have something to say, Ill say it whether you approve or not. I have not been to this site for about four months due to personal reasons, and I dont see much less garbage now than there was then.
Ignoring the trolls does not make them go away. Letting their posts stand unchallenged makes it appear they are part of the group, plus there are enough of them (with multiple usernames probably) to carry on conversations that support that appearance. Im not a child, not uneducated, not unaware of propaganda or debate tactics.
Frankly, the right has been shouting us down for most of this decade, and being polite got us a congress full of whackos, and governors who think they are monarchs.
lol. WOW. dude, I could care less about your coming of age issues. You want to get down to the nut of it lets do that. These fucks get paid to come here and piss you off and destroy this forum. By engaging them, not only do you assist them in doing so, you ensure their next paycheck to continue doing it and validate continuing this as a practice in the future for any movements to come, making them batter and better at destroying our ability to communicate and fight for our rights. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem and we don't fucking need you.
First of all,, Richard, you and Faithntruth are on the same side. If you start telling each other to fuck off, the trolls have done their jobs in terms of sowing division and discord. So how about cooling it a bit?
Second, I'm with Faithntruth on this one. There is no proof that most of these asshole trolls re on any payroll. That is speculation, and even if true, it would likely represent a fraction of them Mostly they are just sick, self absorbed assholes who think it is fun to be disruptive or are deluded enough to think they have an obligation to oppose the movement. It is no different in than respect than other forums I've been on.
I see no harm in exposing their crap for what it is. Politeness has not worked. If it did, there would be no need for Occupy, which is anything but polite in and of itself.
Most? How many do you think there are? There are only a couple of trolls using many user accounts. Every forum, including this one, has a DNFTT policy.
I believe there are more than a couple. And the DNFTT policy is meaningless, since there is also a policy against trolling itself that is entirely un-enforced. If the moderators would be more proactive, we wouldn't have to be.
it is enforced, there is one individual who is using over seas proxys to keep switching IP addresses and remain out of reach. The mods are doing their job. The reason he keeps coming back is because you guys keep giving him a reason to.
So the entire gaggle of trolls on this site is one single person? C'mon richard, you're much smarter than that.
Both our positions are justified. There is no need to tell other supporters that they are not "fucking" needed here because they disagree with you about how to handle our common enemy.
We need to set in a culture of not responding to it. This isn't just my crazy ass idea, it's a policy all over the web and for good reason, it works. And yes, if someone is going to toss out there father issues as a rebuttal on this forum, I don't see their input as any use to the movement and at the very least, I'm going to make them wear the ridiculousness of it. I may be a little mean but I've no patience with people that cannot separate logic from personal hangups, I'm not a shrink.
Richardkentgates the megalomaniac, you do not run this forum and you do not get to insult me because you think you are king. Since you chose to attack me again, indirectly this time, (chicken shit type of behavior) I will return the favor.
You start by discarding my critique of your dealings with trolls by comparing me to your father, act as if you are being oppressed when asked to follow a widely adopted policy on the web of not feeding the trolls, continue insulting me and still acting as the oppressed while being the aggressor. Not only is this passive aggressive behavior, but you are out of your mind if you think I'm going to apologize for pressuring you to stop feeding the trolls.
You know full well that refering to my father was an allusion to you attempting to assume an authority to control who posts what where and that you are not entitled to that authority. You are not that stupid as to believe I intended in any way to compare you to my father.
But since you insist on feigning stupidity, let me spell it out for you: parents are authority figures in all cultures, both archetypically and in reality. Even most adults treat their parents with respect that stems from both love and recognition of the parental role, and our society deems that appropriate as does the major religion in our country. Fathers especially are the archetype of authority figures. References to that role are common. It is commonly understood that saying " he is acting like my father" Is meant to convey that the person is trying to assume an authority reserved for someone else while also treating others inappropriately.
You also know full well that you intended to slander me, did slander me, and that it is for that which you should apologize.
If you read, as others will, the series of comments, you will find your comment about your father preceded my firmness with you. It is in it's very essence the logical fallacy this thread was made to address, and I called you on it. Now you are still trying the same tired personal BS this thread is addressing. Ironic or sad, you decide.
If you read back to your response to me before that you will your statement to which I was responding. You did not address a fallacy, call me on anything or prove yourself to be anything other than dictatorial, vengeful, and a bit of a meany to boot. Plus, you took a general discussion and turned it into a personal attack, both to me and then to someone else when that person disagreed with you and asked you to back down.
As already stated, it seems you are being purposefully obtuse. You are trying to act all innocent, and trying to make me appear unreasonable, but everything youve said to me is here for everyone to read. Instead of admitting you were wrong to insult me personally, you elected to do it again, and again, and again. But you werent finished because then you elected to do it behind my back, so to speak (recognize that is a turn of phrase, please, before you accuse me of perhaps hallucinating your physical presence or voice).
You, sir, are a cad, and you owe me an apology.
so because I feel comparing me to your father is off topic I'm a megalomaniac? You need to grow up and accept that your views are what is being disagreed with and no amount of you trying to turn this into a personal matter is going to make it a personal matter or make me agree with you. I think your wrong and it's that simple. Get over it.
I think you are acting purposefully obtuse in your apparent inability to recognize that a comparison to a parent is a reference to authority figures. If i said you are not the forum police, i guess you would claim i have some mental problem that involves cops.
You, just you, made this personal when you elected to attack my mental health first to me and then to someone else, instead of supporting your views with a valid argument.
And I stick with megalomaniac, since you decided that my disagreeing with you was reason to make a personal attack, as well as deciding for everyone that i am "not fucking needed" as a supporter of OWS. Who went off the rails with his opinion was disagreed with? You. Take your own advice.
Richard, take a breath. Your idea was challenged and you got pissed. It's happened to all of us. But if you step back for half an hour or so, you'll see more clearly we are all on the same side. This is not an attack on you but merely a suggestion.
I won't address this any more. You are a reasonable a decent person, and I've already given my opinion, and I know you will consider it in good faith regardless of the conclusion you arrive at. But I gotta tell you, i really miss GirlFriday and her (or his) way of dealing with the trolls. I have a feeling you do, too.
cussing is a way to emphasize something. Some only feel the need to emphasize if they are angry, true, but I'm not so repressed. I call it how I see it. I'm a little blunt, sorry.
No worries. Sorry for assuming.
You're making assumptions about my emotional state. That isn't a position, it's a cop-out.
Richard, you're responses have been angry. You don't tell someone he isn't "fucking" needed if you are calm.
I was just trying to help. But no problem, I will but out from this point on.
Dude, language... and temper issue? You seem to have lost your ability to reason, there, and thus have fallen back on attacking based on some erroneous assumptions:
First, im female, second, im 49 years old, and third, NO ONE has elected you president of the OWS forum. You dont dont get to decide who is needed. You dont get to dictate behavior. You dont get to define the solution. You dont get to tell anyone who to converse with or not.
Glad I stirred long enough to see the real you rise up...
lol. I don't get to. Exactly. At 49 you still come from the approach that everyone that criticizes you is trying to oppress you. Do you not feel your position is what merits criticism? Are we all to excuse our responsibility to our decisions and chalk it up to a fault in those criticizing us. It's not my decisions they disagree with, they just hate me and thats why? I didn't tell you what to do, I said we don't need you. And we don't. We don't need anyone that is going to feed trolls any more than we need violent protesters.
So I was as some point hiding the real me?
So because I used a curse word I'm angry? Or is that just another deflection of criticism rationalized by imagined faults in those criticizing you. If you are 49, I wouldn't go telling anyone that with your clear inability to take criticism at face value. If you are to respond to this, try to keep your personal issues out of it, they are not valid here.
Look at you, AGAIN dictating what I can say....if i wanted to share my personal issues with you, or in this forum anywhere, I am free to do so, whether you like it or not. You are not KING richard, you do not own this site, you do not have any authority beyond your own monitor and keyboard, so get over yourself.
And those are not my personal issues, they are something you manufactured to try to belittle me so you could then invalidate my point that you do not get to decide where or what I or anyone else posts after you implied that I lack the ability to use discernment because you dont like my choices.
Relying on personal attacks instead of addressing the point is a method employed by those whose sides of a conversation have a weak foundation.
If you read back, you will see that you are indeed trying to dictate what posts should be responded to, and I am not reacting to criticism, but merely pointing out that you are out of line for doing so and that in doing so that you are assuming an authority you are not entitled to (ie, you aint my daddy)
I'm not your shrink, do what you like but you've lost my respect. Best wishes.
Like I said, the real you is finally showing, and losing your respect means about as much as losing the hair in my armpits...
Richard Kent Gates = spammer. He has 30 of so different usernames on this site. He constantly repeats the same postings, and advertises his website. When he disagrees with someone, he calls them a paid troll without providing any counter-arguments. He's also a government lover.
Here's another posting exactly the same as this one:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/just-try-to-imagine/
Just a guy trying to flood the forum with bane thoughts.
At least Richard gives a crap enough to be worried - need to calm down and get head on straight - it's easy to get frustrated but take the ego down a notch - some people like to hear themselves talk - some people like to take action - I mean this is like the people who work at the dog shelter getting annoyed at the people who want to adopt the dogs because they got attached to them becoming all suspicious and paranoid to let them go with anyone else - let it go and open up - the movement is up for adoption and I am hoping to find it a good home but I'm not going to get so judgmental that I dismiss a potential good one!!! Everyone has good points - we just need to get them under some headings so we're not crossing the equator and back.
I did say i had thought richard to be a good guy, and did state that he does make some points i agree with, although I do not agree with his basic political philosophy. He elected to respond by insulting me on a personal level.
Do you really think the trolls are taking direction or working together developing tactics? Responses always meander from the topic. It just looks like it would be more likely that people try to twist any thread to their favorite area, everyone seems to have some particular ax to grind no matter how things start they drift toward that.
Trolls - my ass ....crazy paranoia - they've got the media on their side do you really think they need to spend time or money sabotaging a website? all they have to do is talk about how we want to raise their taxes and want free college tuition - and Occupy hasn't clearly defined whether or not that is true because no one has the guts or balls or intelligence to stand forward lay it out and make decisions about what would be best. You're fighting billion dollar propaganda machines with wish-wash kid shit. Occupy needs to develop counter-propaganda and intelligence maneuvers. Don't need to hide that fact either. Hiding behind all this kind off afraid to step in shit - terrified of trolls crap. If you don't know what you're talking about enough and you are so scared to challenge what you know in your gut then don't post - leave it to those of us who have some balls and know how to fight fire with fire and know the tactics we're fighting not phantom fucking trolls - Oh please !!!! It would also help to get this forum under some topics and somewhat fuck ass organized - though I do so kindly thank those who do work on it and have put in the time... but aren't you getting funding yet to pay some professionals? ps Happy V-Day
What topics this "forum' has no topics and no way to go back to read responses - it's design is ridiculous, flawed, and confusing ... aside from which there are headlines that could be used to divert many of the extremists so Occupy could get some business done - the other portion of this is you shouldn't advertise and lay your deck down for the other side to see by planning your defense in public - do you really think all of occupy's planning should be done in public on a forum? stupidity - for all to see
I don't disagree with any of that. Are their trolls working in an organized fashion to disrupt this forum? You bet. My profile has a link to a movement news project. in my pages, you can find a PDF with the details.
I agree with the part about not "playing into party politics".