Forum Post: Explain
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 8, 2011, 11:30 p.m. EST by george
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Can someone please explain this movement to me? I don't understand it since I can't find any credible sources.
Many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link above, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. Sequence is key.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.
So please JOIN the 2nd link, so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for by e-mail from the group in the 2nd link, and then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the strategy of the 1st link as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your Occupation & Generation.
Really wish I could promote this more
http://www.collapsemovie.com/index.html
Great film
What’s YOUR occupation?!!!
Pardon the guy below me,hes a dick. The movement is simply this. We want the people that have been financially responsible for the corruption and the economy going under to be held accountable for their actions. The people that have helped orchestrate the bailouts are on that list as well,as are the people that voted for them. Basically its a long overdue shout out from americans to washington "Fix this or you are gone! And there's no guarantee that we will wait for an election day to throw you out."
Either you are an ostrich with his/her head in the sand or you are part of the problem. Do you not understand that people are suffering and those who have the power to end that suffering refuse to do anything but line their own pockets with the misfortune of others? Wake up and smell the despair that surrounds you! It is so very discusting and despicable that you cannot see what this country has become. Shame on you George for being oblivious.
"Either you are an ostrich with his/her head in the sand or you are part of the problem." That's pretty classic extremism. To an Islamist, anybody who isn't an Islamist is against Islam. To Sarah Palin, anybody who isn't on her side is on the other side. Do you really want to echo George W Bush when he said, "You're either for us, or you're against us." It takes an extremist to only be able to see two options.
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
the solution.
http://youtu.be/Ka1ym7S3F3w
http://rpflix.com/2108
This Might Help.....A PETE MCGRAIN FILM IN ASSOCIATION WITH MEDIA FOR ACTION: Hosted by WOODY HARRELSON This powerful documentary examines the flaws in our systems, the mechanisms that work against Democracy, the environment, and society as a whole: From conflicts of interest in politics, the abuses of corporate power, to a news media that serves the interests of the few, leading to the destruction of our ecosystems, over consumption and warfare. This controversial documentary is in post production. Watch it free online here: http://www.ethosthemovie.com/filmdownload.html
I look at it as liberal reaction to the tea party. All the discussions about 'class warefare', millionaire taxes etc., leave out something major: The 99% of us is financially suffering. Like the tea baggers we have to be prudent and serious. If we suggest crazy and unrealistic ideas we lose credibly -- like the tea party.
Like the tea baggers, you need to get out and vote. They have influence because they understand the importance of participating in the democracy that we already have.
your civilization is a con scam against the sheeple; a corporate oligarchy using "democracy" and capitalism as polite fictions and running a two party duoploy false dillemma con scam party system. "Capitalism" is merely the game they play at the rigged oligarchy casino. Its evolutionary time to actually have democracy instead of evil overlords.
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater
Abolish money and that will lead to "economic singularity in about 50 years."
I hereby nominate this message as the funniest thing that I've read all day. Whether this was a joke like the Latino studies thing or not (it's REALLY hard to tell around here!) doesn't matter. It's still the funniest thing that I've read all day.
i didn't say to abolish money, your spinning and putting words into my mouth and probably thus trolling. In fact a meaningful revolution must actually USE money and EVOLVE away from it very slowly, economic singularity = when money becomes obsolete. So not only did i not say that, but what you say i said in order to lie and spin and have a straw man to attack as a troll is a redundant Non sequitur. you calling your spin doctored Non sequitur funny is i suppose the height of troll ego comedy.
I totally apologize. I don't need to mischaracterize what you're saying because what you're saying is funny enough without me twisting it. What does "evolving away from money" entail? What is an "economic singularity"?
fundamentally evolving away from money entails you and everyone getting access to their own manufacturing machinery. Self sufficient communities, localization. Eventually the family unit and the tribal unit overtake the hival system and make it irrelevant. Economic singularity simply means that point in time at which an economic system is pointless because anyone can have anything.. more or less... while i suppose that this could sound funny these are well defined truths from science and culture.
http://www.singularity2050.com/the_singularity/
http://hplusmagazine.com/2009/04/22/singularity-101-vernor-vinge/
You want me to build my own iPhone? That's the solution? We un-do the industrial revolution?
I'm still not convinced that you're not joking like the guy with the Latino studies degree, because the phrase "hival system" is laugh-out-loud funny all by itself, without even taking any of the other stuff that you're saying into account.
no, we hyper do the industrial revolution and every small community has their own self sufficient construction equipment. So anyone can manufacture an I-phone and whats bought and sold eventually is just the data which is the design of the iphone. Plus instead of faked capitalism corportism holding technology back, your iphone now does everything a desk top does and gets free service everywhere. see?
I've spent the last three or four years desperately searching for just a handful of competent software developers in my home town. Now you're telling me that in order to use a cell phone, I'm going to have to establish a team of hardware engineers to design a handset, a team of software engineers to develop a mobile operating system, and teams of communications infrastructure experts to build and connect cell towers, without help from any company, right in my own neighborhood?
I swear that I'm not arguing with you because I truly, honestly cannot tell if you're joking or not. Trolls on this site could easily keep people guessing for a very long time about whether they're parodies or whether they're for real.
no, all of those jobs can be automated. the design engineers will do the work because they want to, you won't have to find them.. they will be there grouping together to make things because humans are creative. All of those things happen so much easier when people do what they do out of hobby labor of love motivations. And have the time for that. So you simply hop on the net, get in a forum or some wiki, list out some design specifications, and the rest happens if your ideas are good because other people get involved. Industry becomes localized, design and information become freed up to travel globally, in a giant collaboration engine, so you don't have to pay anyone... etc... no... i am not joking. What does the economy of the future really look like? according to systems theory and game theory and sociology, the answers are in. I'm just reporting and distilling 3000 textbooks. you find it fantastic only because your civilization is built on lies and on keeping you all ignorant of the advances science and technology have made.
Okay now I'm pretty sure that you're a parody. I have to hand it to you for keeping it just at borderline crackpot and not going totally over the top, which kept the game going for a long time. You're like a performance artist. Very nice. This idea of having Star Trek replicator machines in every neighborhood that crank out cars and televisions and iPads is a brilliant satirical commentary to illustrate the futility of the unrealistic proposals that are all over this web site.
The engineers who work for me do so because I pay them. We work 80 hour weeks because we're a startup and if we succeed then we could all make a lot of money. Nobody is going to work an 80 hour week just for fun.
I'm sorry you think so. I am quite completely serious. I am hardly saying anyone is going to work 80 hours a week just for fun. why would we need to? 10 hours a week is a good pace for a nice hobby, and just means that either it takes 8 times longer or ten times more people involved.
The current size of manufacturing systems has gone down as robotic complexity has increased. An industrial site capable of constructing pretty much anything from extruded based materials is probably feasible now to put on 4 or 10 acre lots. There is no reason why every community in the USA can't out compete these dino corporations and it turns out that is in fact the evolutionary direction. Quite the opposite of what you say, this is not only feasible it is the science answer and is absolute the obvious and factual evolutionary direction according to systems and game theory.
You don't seem to understand the reality of our knowledge-based economy: there aren't enough skilled workers. The few skilled workers are under pressure to work very long hours because it's the only way to get things done. You can't take a tech project and add ten times as many people to it because those people aren't available. I've already had to resort to hiring Venezuelans because I can't find enough Americans who are qualified to do the work that I need them to do. And if that fundamental problem were somehow solved, if there were more highly-skilled workers to take all of the new high-skill jobs that our economy is creating, then there wouldn't be any problem in the first place. The reason that people are complaining is that they want there to be more low-skilled jobs so that they don't have to learn new skills. Who is going to build all of these magical Star Trek replicator robots?
i do understand the problem of not enough skilled workers. I'm sorry the reason why people are complaining is that they would have to sell their leg to afford the education required to do that job. And etc. the game is rigged many other ways. as far as replicator robots, thats an interesting idea. the actual fact of the matter is that the technology level we have NOW is up to the task. The communities will build those robots themselves in an evolutionary retread of industrialization, starting with simple machines and metal smith tools and working their way up to more complicated and evolved tools. OR.. i suppose a company can do that and mass manufacture them.. assorted ways..
The Venezuelans who I have hired have been self-trained, with no college education. They're filling in the gaps in their education for free using the Khan Academy web site because they're self-motivated people with a strong work ethic. Vocational training for specific job skills is often even simpler. For example, this is a highly-effective, interactive, and FREE tutorial that anybody can use to learn to build a web site using Ruby on Rails: http://railsforzombies.org If you google "ruby on rails jobs", you'll discover that there are THOUSANDS of jobs available, and not enough people to fill them, even though the training can be free. In fact it's almost always free, since there are few formal schools for this. Our economy is creating jobs, and if people would put a fraction of the energy that they spend on complaining that they don't have jobs into learning new job skills then we would have two fewer problems in this country. And if you don't think that it's realistic for a person to use fantastic resources like Rails for Zombies to teach themselves a new job skill, then your idea of people building magical replicator robots for free as a hobby just because they're interested is definitely not realistic.
you are intent on blaming the victims instead of seeing the real dimensions of the problem. I am an autodidactic aspie with 20 phds worth of knowledge because of self educating, so i do see the validity of self education. You are missing the point and digressing. The question is how to bring a product to market in the new system. The answer is you use global networking and support for the information side and local industrialization to build.
WHY would anybody bring a product to market in a system where there is no market?
same reason we do now. because we like neato gadgets that are more advanced than last years. Why else?
That is not why most new products are brought to market right now, FYI. Money is why new products are brought to market.
no. most new products are brought to market because somebody somewhere thinks a new such thing will be kewl. Money certainly isa contributing motivator, but its not either /or, its both in almost all instances. In any case, money as a motivator is a very poor systemic motivator and has assorted problems. Other motivators do exist and will continue to operate and are present as contributing factor motivators in almost all current industry.
And Steve Jobs may have thought that the iPad would be kewl even if he weren't making money, but the iPad would not have been possible without money, because it's not just the product of one person's work. It took thousands of people and it took millions of man-hours, none of which would have happened if Apple hadn't had money to use to motivate those people to put in the work.
There are a lot of jobs that nobody would be interested in doing if not for money. Your idea of a volunteer economy where people work just for fun would leave us with no garbage collectors, no construction workers, no landscapers, no janitors, no housekeepers. What kind of person in their right mind would choose to spend their days doing roofing work if they weren't getting paid for it?
again, living inside of your own biases you have no idea. Not possible without money? Ipad? were it not for money such devices would be orders of magnitude more powerful, instead of spacing out functionality between different products, you do know that its technologically feasible now to put all the functionality of a desk top into a phone? miniaturization passed that threshold a decade ago. In fact, and again, a larger number of people working in volunteer capacity could have created an ipad without money, without a market system, without fake capitalism. The person that does roofing work without getting paid for it is the person whos building something in their community with others and who wants to see the roof finished. In short, your systemic biases prevent you from seeing that there are whole universes of alternatives you don't imagine. you telling me that there is all of this that couldn't happen without money only proves your lack of imagination, and your attachment to the current system.
You are now the proud recipient of the first-ever Iserbyt Award, for excellence in fringe, crackpot ideology.
What a bizarre situation. It seems people are actually complaining about the way economics works, really. If you graduate high school and decide to move on to college, perhaps it's best you decide to get a degree which other people will pay you to use. Latino studies? What possible position requires that skill set, other than a school? I myself graduated in "a top 100" university in 2005 with a degree in electrical engineering, and wow is my degree in demand, it's great. All those people in college spent SO much time partying, playing video games, but every one of them now that I still talk to is not employed or getting another degree (that applies to the friend who majored in Music Education).
When I was in 9th grade I wanted to be a musician - it's what I'm best at. But I knew the demand was ultra low, the pay was bad, and I wouldn't be able to support a family with it. My second option was to be an astronomer, but that was not much better as I hear up to a dozen doctors in astronomy each year are not hired in that profession due to a lack of jobs available. So, at the age of 15, with apparently more wisdom than most of the protesters today, I decided I would go to college and get a EE degree.
I worked ferociously hard in college (partied less than you can count on one hand), and am currently taking graduate courses at the local university to keep my skill set in demand. I have survived two layoffs.
That's my story in a nut shell. So what is this 'protest' about? What kind of education do many of these people have? Do they have skills which can compete in the labor market of the 21st century, or are they just upset their skills - or lack of them - are completed unusable, or worse, not even in demand by even other protestors around them?
Thank you for your comments in advance.
The guy talking about Latino studies was joking, but the phenomenon is very real. While these people are complaining about there being no jobs, I'm having trouble hiring Americans because there are so few American workers qualified for the software development jobs that I'm hiring for. I've been hiring Venezuelans instead. Not because they're cheaper, they get paid more than the average American hourly wage. It's because they can do it.
Americans are nearing the point where they consider technical jobs to be as unappealing as landscaping or housecleaning work. They'd rather just let foreigners have those jobs because nobody here wants them. American youth will spend all day on Facebook and arguing on web sites like this one, but they can't be bothered to learn how to build a site like this. Is it Wall Street's fault that few Americans are qualified for the jobs that the economy is creating?
Try taking a look at a job board for Ruby on Rails developers. There are plentiful jobs, and employers are desperate to recruit people. Just one example.
Thanks Tech, I read some replies made shortly after I posted mine and figured he was epitomizing sarcasm; still, I'm finding many of my old friends from high school and college made the poor choice of choosing a career they loved doing rather than choosing the second or third favorite career which other people will actually pay them to do. And I agree about your software dilemma - where I work we haven't been able to find enough software engineers as well. It's apparently a hard field to find competent engineers in. And it pays better than MY field, so of course my next move is to start learning how to program better ;).
The end game is to keep yourself employable. That's what matters. Tomorrow technology will change. The point will be to keep up with it and remain relevent.
Hopefully your luck improves and you can find more Americans who can write software. Unfortunately, in the near term we're probably both going to be seeing a lot more Chinese or Asian citizens hiring into our facilities to do this work instead. And it's a shame with 9.1% unemployment.
I very much agree with your summary of all of this, that it seems that people are complaining about how economics works. Some people don't understand that in our society, everybody is the CEO of their own business, even if they're not self-employed. The CEO steers the business toward opportunities, he invests limited resources hoping for a positive return in the future, he hedges his bets, and the bottom line of the company is ultimately his responsibility. If you're an employee of a company, you're still responsible for your own bottom line. If you're struggling to find work, then you're in the same position as HP when they made a gigantic mistake and invested resources in the TouchPad. You're responsible for your own profitability because nobody else is going to look out for you. Some people just don't understand that they have this responsibility, so they fail to maximize their own profitability. The people who don't recognize their own responsibility for their own profitability are the ones who look for scapegoats. If you're a right-wing extremist then you're going to blame the government if you can't find a job. If you're a left-wing extremist then you're going to blame Wall Street if you can't find a job. But in the US, especially during an expanding economy like the one that we're in now, it's your own responsibility if you can't find a job, because there are jobs out there.
Tech, that's a very wise thing to say. I have never thought of it quite like that before, thank you for the incite.
Everyone can't afford college. How about education not being a top priority for city officials? I am glad you have made a decent semblance of your life, but there are countless others who are not given the opportunity.
Lets not focus on the unfortunate. Look at their opposites. Those born at the top with unlimited mobility. In what society is it fair for children to be born in predestined paths? When you, with your electrical degree, get smashed out by someone who could afford MIT. I mean afford in all ways. Parents able to invest in them. A community not prone to drugs, rape, shootings, or even less. Money. At this point, you are middle class and content. That is fine. To have no humanity for others is another monster all together,
I was brought up in lower middle class. At one point there was one car for four people working in the household. Imagine figuring that schedule out.
If you're looking for someone to pitty those who have made easy or poor choices, you are not looking at the right post. I have what I have because I worked for it. I could not have gone to prom in high school if I didn't have a job to pay for it. I choose prom over a class ring, so today everyone I knew in high school had one but me. And I was fine with it because I got to go to prom.
The point is my work ethic is so much higher than these protestors it's hard to talk about it. I have worked so much harder than many people I know, and I don't even have a master's degree (...yet...).
In a global environment you need to compete harder than ever before, and today that means getting a master's degree for most degrees. I'm beginning that myself. Do I want to? No, this isn't fun at all. I'd much rather spend time with my family, friends, etc. Do I see the coming storm of economic uncertainty? Yes. And it's my duty to my wife, kids, pets, etc, to ensure I can provide for them.
So if these protestors are working improve their lot by removing hard earned income from other individuals such as myself, then I'm afraid in America they will not win. But if they are working for other issues such as removing tax loopholes, for example to prevent companies from getting away with spending no money on taxes for the entire year, then most likely they will be able to achieve something.
I hope none of their interests is to bring down your income. I am hoping the envisioned society is one still in demand for electrical engineers. Tax loopholes would be a good way to bring this system back down to a simmer. There are other stipulations though. It doesn't change the way our government is ran by special interests groups. or a variety of other problems which have to be addressed.
I would like slow methodical debate and ideas for action, but none of it will be found on this site. My writing is disorganized just from the way everything on here seems to be very 'in your face'.
Yeah if my writing is getting incoherent it's because, at 1:27AM, it's well past my bedtime of 10PM. I guess I'm too tired to continue. Good night and God bless!
You will succeed in life, cap1, because you understand what it takes to succeed and you're willing to work hard to get there. Like my totally self-trained Venezuelan software developers who taught themselves job skills first and now they're filling in the gaps in their education using the free Khan Academy web site. They're running circles around American kids who could do the exact same thing, but who just don't. The difference between my Venezuelans who have good jobs and unemployed Americans is not based on class. If anything, they have a pretty severe disadvantage on those terms. What makes the difference is a recognition that their fate is in their own hands, and a willingness to work hard to get where they want to be. I can see that you have the same traits because of how confused you are over the Occupy Wall Street protests.
You can't find credible sources because they are drowned out by the media and certain political groups.
"Occupy Wall Street is leaderless resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%."
It doesn't get much more simple then that. The people you see throwing around the typical political slogans are the ones that don't get it and the ones trying to hijack this movement.
Go down to one of the protests and talk to people. You will quickly realize what this is about and how full of s* our media is.
You're directly contradicting the many people on this web site who insist that it isn't about class warfare.
You should check out the front page of this website... Where i got the quote from. I'm not trying to be rude but seriously, check out the front page of this website. lol
As for the Class Warfare thing. Class Warfare has been going on in this country since the beginning. The problem is only one class knows they are fighting it... And they are winning !
Well, what that means is that there is not even agreement on the one core concept that all of these protesters supposedly agree on, because I've seen many people today insist that Occupy Wall Street is not about class warfare.
Define class warfare...
Is class warfare about eliminating rich people ? Or is it about eliminating the corrupt, greedy few that exploit the average person and throw piles of money at our politicians to rig the game in their favor ?
they are the ones who are doing class warfare. we want to end it.
'Those of us who are not the wealthiest 1% of the country are no longer going to tolerate the greed and corruption of the wealthiest 1%.' That statement is self-explanatory and it defines the Occupy Wall Street world view pretty well. It positions the rich as the enemy. If that's what this movement is about, then that's no problem. But then why are so many people within the movement trying to weasel out of admitting that it's about class warfare? Just admit it and move on and accomplish something.
If you are wealthy and NOT greedy or corrupt then that quote does not apply to you. Michal Moore is wealthy and accepted by the OWS protesters.
It's a blanket statement but a true one. If you want to split hairs, find some one else to do it with. If you can't figure it out i don't want to explain it to you.
Newton's Third Law applies to this movement with a vengeance. For every statement, there is an equal and opposite counter-statement. Here's a quote about Michael Moore that I found earlier today:
"The general assembly is supposed to approve all major decisions. In reality, it appears to be occupied with endless deliberations about trivia while the really big decisions are being made someplace else. A case in point are the invitations which have obviously been extended to a whole series of discredited left liberal figures, many of them deeply implicated in inflicting the Obama presidency and continued Wall Street rule on our nation. Michael Moore, Naomi Klein, Mike Myers, and left-IMF ideologue Joseph Stiglitz have all appeared, and a visit by Noam Chomsky, a devoted supporter of the Bush theory of terrorism, is reportedly in the works. Eyewitnesses have reported that most demonstrators were not happy with the presence of the millionaire Michael Moore, who was using the demonstrations as props for his usual routine of self-promotion. But these objections carried no weight. Regular participants in the general assembly report that they were never consulted about whether to invite these left liberals. It is therefore a good guess that the invitations were actually issued by the secret steering committee. The general idea is once again to reduce the protest movement to a mere auxiliary in the effort to get Obama reelected."
Except for the fact basically all progressives, most Liberals and a large portion of Democrats hate Obama. If you think Liberals are trying to take over the OWS movement to get Obama re elected... lol. Most want him primaried. Nice try though.
Anyway, I'm not going to get in a back and forth debate. It's pointless. You believe what you want to believe. I don't care to change your mind on any of your views.
That was a quote that I posted, I didn't say anything about Obama. I'm just pointing out that there is no agreement on anything at all among the people participating in Occupy Wall Street. Not even the simple mission statement on the front page that you pointed out.
Do you agree with me that the Greed on Wall Street and in our banks needs to be fixed ? Do you agree with me that we need to remove the corruption from our government ? Do you agree with me that we need campaign reform ? Do you agree with me that we need to fix our broken system as a hole ?
If you agree with me on any of those things, why fight about a political viewpoint ? Why not work together with each other and fix these problems first ? If we keep turning this into a left, right , Ron Paul or Obama thing... Whats the point? Nothing will ever change.
I work at a venture-funded technology startup, and Wall Street greed is the reason that I have a job right now. Looking for scapegoats isn't going to make anybody's lives any better.
On campaign reform, the biggest problem with our elections is a lack of voter participation. Only 24% of eligible voters aged 18-29 voted in the 2010 mid-term elections that gave the Tea Party their wins. I've seen a lot of campaign reforms in my lifetime but voter apathy has been pretty constant the whole time. What's the point of changing the system if the people who want to change the system can't be bothered to participate in it?
I am a small business owner...
Anyway, i agree with you on the voter apathy part. I don't blame the younger generation though. I didn't know a damn thing about politics when i was 18 - 23. The only thing i cared about at that time was what girl had the biggest boobs lol. The younger generation now seems to be interested in politics and i believe that we will see more young adults voting and getting politically involved in the relatively near future.
I would hold our generation and our parents generation accountable. We are the ones that really screwed things up.
The incorrect assumption here is the idea that economic stability is normal, expected, or even desirable. The US economy is an enormous, explosive thing. Volatility is just part of the game. I've been hit hard by enough down cycles to know that you can't have an up cycle without a down cycle. You can't have light without darkness. The dot-com collapse hit me personally in a very hard way. Did I blame Wall Street? No, because going through the bubble and then having it burst was still a lot better than if the bubble had never happened at all. A carefully-controlled economy with no surprises would not be an improvement. Economic expansion necessarily involves "creative destruction", which means people losing their jobs and having to find new ones. That's what we're seeing today, now that the 2007 downturn has caused our economy to become far more productive, which means accomplishing the same thing with less people. That trend is a boondoggle for people like me who create technologies that increase productivity. When I succeed, people lose their jobs. I don't feel guilty about that, because at the same time, I'm creating lots of new jobs. They're just DIFFERENT jobs. People need to face the fact that they need to be adaptable and stop looking for scapegoats on Wall Street. Wall Street is creating a lot of jobs.
I have no idea what you are talking about. You are comparing apples to oranges and conveniently leaving out information. The .com bubble exploded because that how the markets work. A bubble grows and at some point when it grows out of proportion of the rest of the market that bubbles burst. The housing bubble was a manufactured bubble created deregulation of the markets... Exactly how much deregulation contributed to the .Com bubble ?
Anyway, i don't care to debate economics. It's 2 Am. I can hardly put 2 sentences together right now. =P
The dot-com bubble and the housing bubble were both caused by, in your words, "the greed on Wall Street". Wall Street's hunger for profits drives my entire industry, and many others.
A bunch of people who have no idea about who is doing what to who and how they are doing it. If you can dig deep enough you will find some mad man like a Right Wing Christian who wants to overthrow the government for Jesus and become dictators where they make life a real hell on earth for 100% of the people. Worse than the world bankers are doing now to 99% of the people.
I'm not sure if "movement" is really the right term, since this is a group of people who haven't reached consensus on anything at all. It seems to be more of a mass expression of discontent, rather than a "movement" with goals.
One thing that I personally find revealing is the total lack of interest in voting. I posted a suggestion earlier today that all of this will be remembered as a futile publicity stunt unless the protesters can find a way to translate their energy into voting. That message is one of the few messages on this forum that faded away with zero responses. There are some very crazy ideas that are generating a lot of discussion, but nobody is interested in discussing participation in the democracy that we already have.
Here's my short essay on voting: http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
A mass expression of discontent with WHAT?!
Voting is the most important thing, but what would they vote for? That's why they aren't responding to your voting thread, because they have no idea what they want.
That's my perception anyway.
That's exactly my perception also, and that's part of why I posted that. After spending the day today reading this forum and participating, I'm forming some opinions about this protest. And they aren't very positive. This looks to me like a bunch of people who share one goal: to protest. They're not seriously pursuing objectives, other than the objective of protesting and drawing attention to themselves.
Somebody please feel free to explain to me why I'm wrong about that. I would really like to discover that I'm wrong about that. But I have a feeling that when we look back on this from 2014, we're going to remember it as a totally inconsequential flash in the pan.
I also spent time reading peoples ideas and concerns. I didn't like all the swearing and silly ideas that had not been thought through. I worry others will not take the OWS seriously. I don't think people realize that people of importance or journalists could read a lot and come away with a negative impression. We need to proceed as responsible individuals.
You shouldn't just be worried about people of importance and journalists. You're supposedly trying to represent the other 99%. But you're failing to capture the support of the independent thinkers in the center. If this thing only appeals to the extreme left then what's the point?
I would be anxious to see what the unified protesters could say to this post. I too cannot seem to find the head to this protest. It would be nice to know what it is they are trying to accomplish.
You will remain confused if you think of it that way. It makes a lot more sense when you realize that they have already accomplished what they're trying to accomplish. They're protesting. They're drawing attention to themselves. That appears to be the only clear goal.
As a conservative, I wish I could disagree with you. This country does need SOMETHING. Disorganized protest isn't it, though.
As a centrist, I completely agree with you, and that's why I was hoping to see more interest in participating in our democracy from these people who keep repeating, "This is what democracy looks like." I've lost any confidence in them succeeding in organizing any kind of vote that could accomplish anything.
This OWS can be seen as a great bowel movement. The demographics are people that have came from nice middle class families where their mothers babied them a bit too much. What other "organized" group is putting out requests for people to their laundry, buy them gym memberships to shower, and give them non-perishable food? OWS people need to go home, apologize to their parents and families, get a job, and start working towards their economic fairness.