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Forum Post: Expect gasoline prices to continue to rise - 3 oil refineries now off line on the East Coat

Posted 2 years ago on March 24, 2012, 2:39 a.m. EST by SteveKJR (-497)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

And everyone wonders why we have high gasoline prices when we are supposidly producing more oil then ever. Here is a big part of the reason.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/cattle-news/East-Coast-gasoline-imports-Recent-trends-and-developments-137702998.html

66 Comments

66 Comments


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[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Look at the parking lots full of trucks and SUV's. We sure aren't lowering the demand for gasoline. I blame us.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

nah the amount of gas used by cars and trucks isn't what drive the market price. We use oil in almost everything we use on a daily basis so the idea of cars using up the oil is a common misconception.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

From American Petroleum Institute (API) statistics an average barrel (42 gallons) will produce 46% gasoline, 22% diesel, 10% jet fuel, 5.5% heavy fuel oil, and the remaining 16.5% would be everything else including lubricants, asphalt, petrochemical feedstocks, etc.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Energy-Industry-Oil-2441/Oil-refining.htm

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

yeah but how much of that gas goes to public use

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

About 63% goes to cars and light trucks.

http://afstrinity.com/worldoil/

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

Hmm in my plastics class we learned that we much more oil for plastics and factory lubricants than what it said.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

What was the percentage claimed in class? The previous link was about 12.5% petrochemical. This next link breaks down the petrochemicals further.

http://alternativeenergy.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=001797

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

we leaned that it was around a third of all crude consumption

[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

It's not the SUV's nor the people out wanting to go to work - it's lack of "gasoline production".

Why do you think a large portion of the oil we are now supplying on our soil is going overseas - we don't have the resources to refine it.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Supply and demand controls price for the most part. When a truck owner getting 15mpg in his "commuter vehicle" causes prices to rise I blame him.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Not necessarily so - because if it did, we have a hugh supply of oil and the demand is there to refine it. We can't so it gets shipped out of the country.

Think about this - how much do you think gasoline prices would go down if we had the capability to not only refine oil into gasoline but be able to get it to every state in the union economically?

We would be paying less then a dollar a gallon. Why, because the supply would be there for everyone and anyone at anytime anywhere in the country.

It's not like that today - we have fewer and fewer refineriest then we had in the 80's. And they can't keep up with demand because of problems associated with government control - most are only at 80% capacity.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Best selling car in America is the Ford pickup truck. We could easily be self sufficient in oil if we had the determination and drove fuel efficient cars.

Less than a dollar a gallon? Prices are set by worldwide supply and demand. Our 5% of the world population creates 25% of the demand for oil. If we cut consumption, prices go down for everyone worldwide. Our excessive demand makes people in other countries pay higher fuel prices, further increasing poverty.

Who is winning? The oil producers and business associated them. Have you noticed some bling in the middle east? We helped pay for it. Another reason for the continued great disparity in wealth here and worldwide.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

WTF

I can not believe my eyes.

You really typed something that stupid?

Are you serious or is there an unexpected punch line that you forgot to add.

Unfuckingbelievable.

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[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Let me ask you something - If we stopped refining gasoline in this country how much do you think a gallon of gasoline would go for.

And if you take into account the what's going on in the Middle East, how much higher do you think prices would go.

Are you that much of a dumb ass in not understanding that no new refineries have been built in this country since the 80's and at we will be losing 27% of their production because 3 more will be taken off line

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that this country consumes 18 billion gallons of gasoline a year?

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that if more gasoline was produced in this country - not imported the price would go down because of supply.

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that the reason gasoline usage has gone down is because of extremely high prices

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that the reason the economy is where it is because people are spending $80.00 a week on gasoline when instead they could be spending it on other things.

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that because of higher gasoline prices people aren't spending like they want to because their budget is tapped out

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that the price of everything produced, manufacturered, shipped and delivered has gone up significantly because of higher gasoline prices.

And are you that much of a dumb ass in understanding that if things don't change soon we are going to be in a deeper recession then we presently are.

You are the "Unfuckingbeliveable one".

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Domestic supply accounts for about 3% of consumption. If we stopped refining gasoline, that's about the amount the price would go up, if that.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Lost touch with reality is all I can say for you but you are not alone.

Are you such a dumb-ass that you don't understand that unregulated speculation has caused the unbelievable jump in gasoline prices.

Are you really such a dumb-ass not to understand that we are exporting oil and gasoline for regular sale?

Are you such a dumb-ass not to realize that our implementation of green technology has reduced our oil consumption to the point where the government would allow exporting?

You won't see a drop in gasoline prices until the speculation is brought under control.

Wake TFU

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[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

All right - I gave you my "analysis" why gasoline prices are high and what needs to be done to lower them - now it's your turn - you got the floor - can you do it instead of "name calling"?

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

What you don't like people to talk to you the way you do to them?

Explanation was as you appear to have overlooked it:

Are you such a dumb-ass that you don't understand that unregulated speculation has caused the unbelievable jump in gasoline prices. Speculation for pure profit.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I am waiting for your explination - I don't know the first thing about "speculation for pure profit" - please explain it to me and why that will have an effect on the price of gasoline if we build more refineries go process crude oil in this country down the road.

[-] 0 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

The problem with the oil markets right now is that the price isn't set by an agreement between buyers and sellers of the actual physical good but rather by buyers and sellers of "futures." Futures people basically take in the data on supply and demand for the real good and then buy and sell ridiculously large quantities of the stuff on paper with no plans to actually receive or store any of it and look to make money by finding the biggest difference between asking prices that they can.

This then makes the market hypersensitive; an incident that may cost us 0.1% of the week's oil imports can drive up prices 20-30% because some fool on the floor will start buying it as fast as he can (and others will emulate him) At this point the Middle East is the most volatile it's been since at least the Arab Spring and Keystone XL is dead. That would be enough to raise prices somewhat, but not the end of the world. Add speculators and futures exchanges into that mix, though, and you've got yourself a mini-tulipomania going on in the oil markets that's hurting all of us.

Now, this wouldn't actually go away if our oil were produced domestically. That would do a fair amount to isolate the market from internal unrest in the Middle East, but a certain small degree of price fluctuation is part of any market and will occur naturally. Speculators will still find those small fluctuations and attempt to capitalize on them, so you'll still have off-the-wall price fluctuations (mostly upward), but they won't be as out-and-out ridiculous as they are now.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Look through the posts already in existence. I am not going to rehash all of that for you. look into the postings dealing with the oil industry. Futures speculation is talked about quite a bit.

There are even petitions out calling for regulation.

So go and look.

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[-] -1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

No, you haven answered what I just posted. Explain to me why there would be massive speculation like there is today because of the way things are in the middle east.

Again - If we have a abundant supply of oil/gasoline on our land there would be no speculation because the speculators would be looking elsewhere to make their money.

So, no you didn't answer the question.

[-] -3 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

You'd think they'd be running up the prices in Venezuela and similar places, if dkafool was right.

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

You are right - Oil producing countries have gasoline prices of around $0.18 to $0.75 a gallon. Wonder why that is?

[-] -2 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

You'd think the alleged mensa putzes here would have an answer for that, or at least make something up that sounds good, to them anyhow.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Prior to being distributed where is the oil and gasoline kept?

They are kept in reserves.

Prior to entering the market these reserve's can be speculated upon. They do not move, paper or electronic paper changes hands and the speculators figure how much they are willing to pay for the rights of a specific volume this goes to how much they think the market will actually pay for the commodity. Since we do not have multiple suppliers in competition with each other at the source - you end up with WHAT? A monopoly and a captive consumer base.

[-] -2 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

OK, lets say we have an abundance of drilled oil in storage tanks around the country along with oil refineries around the country that can take this product and turn it into gasoline and put it out on the market for sales.

Tell me how a "speculator" can make hugh profits when the supply is up higher then the demand.

Speculators want to make a profit - right - that is why they speculate on what the price of a product like oil will be - right.

So, at present with the unrest in the middle east speculators look at what's going on not at present day evaluation but 3 weeks or 3 months from now.

So, if Iran decides to close the shipping ports - whamo - the price of curde oil is going to skyrocket, because speculators will be buying like crazy.

Now, lets look at the United States with the scenearo I just mentioned.

Why would they speculate on the price of oil going up in the United States? They wouldn't because "WE" would't be subject to the "cause and effect" of whats going on in the middle east.

Speculators are "NOT" going to buy something that is in "ABUNDANT SUPPLY". That's the reason neither gasoline nor oil prices would go up if we cut off the "UNKNOWN" by producing our own gasoline and oil.

At present people in this country are "Pissed" because we are exporting oil and importing gasoline - now do you know why that is - it's because we don't have the capacity to refine all the oil we have and turn it into gasoline.

On top of that, oil companies also have the opportunity to take advantage of the "current disruptive/massive usage" global market conditions and as such can make "hugh profits" right now.

If we increased production enough to satisfy our needs and the needs of other countries - you can be sure prices would drop. The "Scare" tactics by the middle east would be over. We would then be the "big dog" on the block.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Speculators are not only betting on shortages from Iran, they are betting on increased demand in China and India, which will also produce shortages.

[-] 1 points by RedSkyMorning (220) 2 years ago

Are we talking about Brent? Don't give give donkeys a bad name. I find them to be very smart just stubborn

[-] -2 points by mugumbo (2) 2 years ago

SteveKJR laid out the facts and you don't seem to get it. I've the read your replies to him and you are fucking clueless but you act like a fucking know it all,which is clearly not reflected in your understanding of the problem.

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[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

Without a doubt you nailed it spot on....

[-] 1 points by pewestlake (947) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Below are links to two charts. The first one is historic gas prices in the US, the second is historic light crude futures (which is a global measure). If you look closely, you can see that gas prices have more than doubled, just a bit more, since the beginning of 2009. But light crude has tripled in the same time frame.

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/M

Driving the price of crude up without a corresponding increase at the pump creates losses at the refinery. Supply and demand may determine the price at the pump. But the futures markets determines the price of crude, not government regulation, especially a government that subsidizes the oil industry to tune of billions of dollars per year. (And if you're not counting the cost of maintaining an American military presence in many places where oil is being extracted, or paying for the local junta to keep a lid on things, you're not seeing the big picture.)

Both Sunoco and ConocoPhillips have had long-standing goals of getting out of the refining part of the business, since they knew this would eventually happen with an unregulated futures market combined with softening demand for refined fuel in the U.S. as the auto fleet becomes more efficient and alternative-fuel engines come into the market. But with profits diminishing or nonexistent, no buyers will be found. They waited a tad too long to dump the wreckage.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

Oil prices are set internationally on the commodities exchange. Domestic consumption is significantly lower and domestic production is higher than it has been in many years. Exports of refined oil products are at historical levels, higher than imports for the first time since 1949.

These Eat Coast refineries make almost no impact on national price levels. Those levels have far more to do with rising demand in China, India, and South America. If one looks at world-wide oil prices one notes that they ALL go up and down in unison, and have done so for about the last 70 years.

What's more, the refineries in question are shuttering seemingly because they are not profitable enough. One of them is, in fact, up for sale.

As usual, this OP's author is spreading distortions.

[-] 1 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

I will ride my horse to the store.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

Higher gasoline prices, means less gas consumption, which means a cleaner and healthier environment with people acting more responsibly and wisely about their consumption of a resource which creates nasty byproducts; what's the problem?

[-] 2 points by grapes (3429) 2 years ago

The recent high new-auto sales figure means that people (perhaps goaded by higher gasoline prices) have already buffered themselves against higher gasoline prices. New autos tend to have better gas mileages. For those people who did not read the writing on the wall, they may very well be those for whom it does not matter ANYWAY (there are wealthier people for whom gasoline prices are inconsequential and irrelevant).

[-] 1 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

However, in the last quarter sales of the Chevy Suburban rose 39%. Compact and sub compact car sales have remained static. Mid size cars are still selling well. And the two top sellers are still the Ford F150 and Chevy Silvarado. Both full size trucks.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3429) 2 years ago

It is freedom of choice, I guess. Some people do not learn so they will just take the "pain" unknowingly, I hope. Let the truth be told though, the cost of fuel is not high on many car shoppers' priority list so the U.S. had to entangle itself worldwide in safeguarding oil prices. Many U.S. citizens ignore that cost but gripe about the rising gasoline prices. For example, why did the U.S. get into such tensions with Iran through the decades? Oil. Why are the U.S. and Iran still locking horns? Oil and Israel. What will happen in the Middle East in the future? Military buildups and confrontations to protect oil. Oil, oil, oil, we will keep on sucking and be sucked till it is no more! Fortunately China may very well have to take on some of the same burden due to their oil consumption.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

Just goes to show there are a lot of irresponsible, and stupid people out there.

If we want to be revolutionary, we ought be changing the thinking of man.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

What percentage of people do you know who "buffered themselves agains higher gasoline prices? I don't know of anyone in my neighborhood.

And for those who buy newer cars the price being paid on a monthly basis doesn't offset the cost of buying less fuel - it makes it more expensive in the long run.

Pay $30,000 for a new vehicle for 5 years at $500.00 a month plus higher insurance costs and you still have to buy gasoline. So, where's the savings? There aren't any unless you pedal a bicycle.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3429) 2 years ago

People will buy newer cars anyway so higher gas mileage is just a nice feature. The most savings come from more intelligent planning and usage of the cars such as buffering items needed on a calendar (to defer the ones that are not urgent), looking up locations that need to be visited on a map and plan trips based on congestion patterns (avoid rush hours, be early on Saturday or Sunday morning, etc.), driving clockwise (for countries driving on the right) to do mostly right turns to avoid left turns that take more time and fuel to make, combining trips, and be creative with things (such as a phone call, video call, instant messaging, chat-assisted collaboration, email, fax, using a trusted agent, electronic payments, having a crash pad, etc.) that are already available to avoid making trips. Buying new cars is an ego trip for many people. I buffered myself against higher gasoline prices so I count myself "lucky" but many of my suggestions can work even without a new car. They can save you time, aggravations, and money!

[-] 1 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

I bought a motorbike that gets 80mpg back in 2003 after our government invaded Iraq. I definitely knew prices were going up then. I also pedal my bicycle to work two times a week. Not only am I saving money, I'm living healthier, and am having lots of fun.

Watch, gasoline prices are going to go up even higher. I'm sure we'll be seeing $10/gallon in the not to distant future. Better start buffering.

(Plant a garden.)

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I don't know, I see a lot of Priuses out there and I would imagine all those people are doing it for the gas savings considering how that car is ugly and has no power. New ones start at about $24K and gets about 50 mpg, there are a lot of savings to be had there, especially if you can get a tax break too.

Personally, my wife and I have been looking at a Highlander hybrid for our next car. It gets 28 mpg, which is not great but almost double what you would get in a normal SUV.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

How about instead of buying a new hybrid and spending $20,000 or so just to get 8 MPG over what you get install a Hydrogen Generator. Look on youtube there is a mountain of info.

I am looking at doing it for my vehicles and it's relitively simple to do. Take a look and if you are mechanically inclinded you can do it for under $100.00

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

It almost seems to good to be true. I would be too afraid to void the manufacturers warranty. I will definitely keep it in mind once the warranty is up.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Like I said - go on youtube and you will learn all about it and the bottom line - it's really easy to do.

The only concern is on newer cars the chip may have to be programmed because the added "gas" causes the computer to think the mixture is rich and could cause the car to stumble.

There are also links regarding that - all that is needed is the chip to be reprogramed.

Trust me - it won't hurt your engine and it can also be used in deisel engines as well. As a matter of fact there is a ford f-250 that only uses a hydrogen generator and has completely weened itself off gasoline.

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

People aren't acting more responsible because of higher gasoline prices - they have no other choice and because of it they have less money to spend on other things - that's what the problem is.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

They have a choice to get a more fuel efficient vehicle.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Sure, go spend $25,000 or $35,000 for a vehicle that gets 30 MPG and have a monthly payment of $500.00 when they can just about afford gasoline now.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Oh yeah,we can all just go out and buy new cars. You see any problems with that idea?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3429) 2 years ago

Yes and no, depending on your means, inclinations, and circumstances. I posted some hopefully helpful ideas below to help those who cannot go on the ego trip of buying new cars so take a look - search for "intelligent planning". :)

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Yes, the problem is thinking you have to buy new. I bought a used car that gets 35mpg last summer. Under $2000. There are thousands to choose from.

[-] 0 points by Blank102 (86) from American Canyon, CA 2 years ago

Well, the price of anything transported by truck, rail, or water will go up. Kinda hard on the poor. But who cares, right? The government will take care of them, right?

[-] 0 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

Stops poor folk from buying foolish things they don't need.

Sounds cold, but in most cases its true. For those true exceptions, Let us hope we can help out those in need.

(Plant a garden, stop buying steaks; its good for you.)

[-] 2 points by grapes (3429) 2 years ago

Listing things on a calendar to defer them and hopefully combining them with others to avoid making additional car trips to save time, aggravations, and money works well. Sometimes, if something does not get done even after a long while, I know that it is low priority and simply forget about it. This is a very nice way to get many things "done" by not doing them at all and still get the important things done without worrying about the pesky things that were "dumped" to the calendar.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (22315) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The problem is the weak economy and small business not being able to afford the cost of the gas prices on the economy. Wake-up.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

I think the real problem is small businesses and others not trying hard enough to reduce their dependancies on gas, and all other forms of energy for that matter. We can blame high gas prices on speculators, evil empires, and everything else, but for whatever reason, people need to wake up and adjust their affairs to the reality of gas prices not going down - ever.

[-] 0 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

Do you recall the congressional hearing regarding the price of synthetic gas and fertilizer brought by American farmers outraged that they could buy the surplus (excess not sold to them by government subsidized litter processors) from South American and ship it here cheaper than buying it from the source in America?

It was interesting and the last word was, "because you can and will pay it."

That's been years ago.

DC's corporate owned government is not controlled, in any part, by the voting public, who are indeed subject to tyrannical enslavement it imposes upon the citizens.

Now, guess what happens if you try and go to Venezuela and bring back a tanker ship full of 20 cents a gallon fuel for your own use, or resale.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I just read that article yesterday. We definitely need to get the weeds out of Washington DC and put people in there who will stand up for our country.

I also think another problem is "globilization" and we are getting suckered into it and it won't be long before we will have to be obeying international laws.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

A lot of the "globalization" problem I believe is that a lot of people allow themselves to be "suckered" into it. A lot can be done when we ourselves stop leading lazy lifestyles by living more efficiently and responsibly, by creating our own "mini-economies" around ourselves and our neighbors and friends. There is much we can do to "blow-off" the global economy.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

I recall when the AMA, American Motorcycle Association "accepted" a seat on the UN... and if you ever get bored, peek into the agendas the UN attempted to push on vehicle manufacturers years ago.

Attempted to completely do away with aftermarket suppliers, eliminate any tuning or hop ups, even tried to dictate that OEM tires could only be installed as replacements.

I think that was in the early 90's.

Of course, a UAW putz like the shooz commie, would see no problem with any of their agendas or even question why the UN owns this country and it's congress.

[-] 0 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

I don't think the problem is the UN for it is not who owns Congress and the rest of this country. Its the Banksters up the road aways on Wall Street. They are the true troublemakers. UN is just a side show. The banksters probably own them too.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

really? you don't know who owns the UN, the IMF, the Fed etc?

[-] 0 points by Shule (2214) 2 years ago

Tell me.

[-] -1 points by VantagePoint250624 (-51) 2 years ago

Those still holding the chapter 11 note which has never been paid, charged off or the debt discharged.

Library of Congress

Emergency Banking Act

March 9, 1933, 48 Stat. 1

Public Law 89-719; declared by President Roosevelt, being bankrupt and insolvent. H.J.R. 192,

73rd Congress m session June 5, 1933 - Joint Resolution To Suspend The Gold Standard and Abrogate The Gold Clause dissolved the Sovereign Authority of the United States and the official capacities of all United States Governmental Offices, Officers, and Departments

[-] 0 points by mugumbo (2) 2 years ago

Great Post and excellent points.

One thing these Genius Libs can't seem to fathom is the effect of Govt. REGULATIONS both Locally and Federally Mexifornias CARB Regulation on types of gas blends seasonally also adds to the cost of gas along with taxes too. Liberals are anti-energy except eagle killing windmills,solar boondoggles and coal fired/nuclear powered Leafs. They're all Climate Alarmists and Freedom killers.

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