Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Ever Wonder Why All The Communist Countries Lock Their People In ??

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 11, 2011, 12:47 p.m. EST by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Ever wonder why people keep coming to America if it's such a horrible place?

115 Comments

115 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 7 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Many people are leaving America also, to seek opportunity in other countries like China or Argentina, which are both growing.

[-] 2 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

I lived in Argentina 3 years, that place is not a communist country.

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

I've lived there myself also, I know its not communist. I was just saying that it is one place that Americans are now going in search of opportunities.

[-] 2 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

Then I sure hope they are prepared for some tough times. The Argentine economy has been suffering for quite some time.

[-] 3 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

It has been suffering, but I think there is growth there, it is supposed to be the second fastest growing country behind China.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

Not true. The Dem. Republic of the Congo is fist, then Pakistan, then Brazil, then china, then India, then Mexico....

[-] 4 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Really? Do you have a link for reference?

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_(latest_year)

I know you aren't going to respond because you are wrong.

[-] 4 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

If that really was the list you were talking about, then you are mistaken on both counts, the list I see gives this ordering: Qatar, Singapore, Paraguay, Taiwan, India, China...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_%28latest_year%29

[-] 1 points by TheStop (53) 2 years ago

I am sorry i was wrong, but i did prove that argentina isn't next to china in rising economies.

[-] 1 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

No problem, it doesn't really matter to me.

[-] 1 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

It has a lot of potential. That nation is extremely rich in so many resources. I personally would love to be able to work down there again. One of the areas of growth is in the oil industry. Large oil reserves were recently discovered within the soveriegnty of Argentina. The farm land is so rich you can grow just about anything down there. I would love to see that nation thrive. It's biggest challenge is its level of freedom to conduct business. Chile is much more friendly with respect to trade.

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Yes, Argentina has a lot of resources. Are you suggesting more free trade policies though? People seem to be happy there with what Cristina is doing.

[-] 1 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

Not in the agriculture business. The people are more split ticket over her than you might realize, but they're very used to dissapointing politicians.

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Who are you talking about when you say "agriculture business", the soy growers? I've heard that's corporations like Monsanto.

I know there are people who don't like Cristina, I have an English school there and my partner doesn't like her. But she had close to 50% in the last election didn't she? That would be a landslide in the US.

From what I've seen, its mostly the media, owned by international corporations, that turn the people against her.

[-] 1 points by TheStop (53) 2 years ago

America has more coming in then leaving.

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

I imagine so, things are bound to be bad everywhere.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

So tell me are more people coming in - or going out?

[-] 1 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

I'm not sure, do you know?

[-] 0 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

so if you are not sure - how can you engage in a dialog on the subject? of course I know. that's off topic anyway the question of the post is why do commie countries lock in their people? can you answer that question?

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

I don't always engage in conversations to prove things, sometimes I do so to learn things. I was merely saying that "many" people now are seeking employment overseas. I did so myself, having taught English in both China and Argentina.

As far as communist countries locking their people in goes, I can certainly say that I encountered quite a number of Chinese people on the airline flying back to America. It was full of them.

[-] 0 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

yea - those are people with connections. unlike the ones who come over in shipping containers.

[-] 2 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Usually the restrictions on the travel of Chinese people into the US comes from the US. Our government wants to make sure that any Chinese people who come here have the means to support themselves.

So its usually the affluent who come over, and yes, it's probably due to their having connections as well. But I don't see the Chinese government playing a particularly great role in restricting the travel of Chinese people.

There are Chinese people all over the world. I saw a lot of them down in Argentina. A lot of the small grocery stores in Buenos Aires are run by Chinese people from China.

[-] 1 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Why would our govt. care if they can support themselves? We support millions of illegal mexicans daily and our govt. won't close the border.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

of course things have opened up in China. How about North Korea? Cuba?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

North-Korea is more about dictatorship than communism. Chinese, Vietnamese, Cubans, etc... can all travel abroad nowadays. I see more and more who come on vacations in Bali. Don't get confused between a dictatorship and communism.

[-] 1 points by OLLAG (84) 2 years ago

Cubans and vietnamese need government proposal ticket to travel which takes over two years to get.

[-] 1 points by Coriolanus (272) 2 years ago

North Korea seems to be sort of a dynastic monarchy (which apparently will continue when Kim Jong-Il's son takes the throne).

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

yea the countries you mention are loosening up from communism. how about when they were at their peak of communism?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I don't consider they have ever been really communist; not in the sense of Marx. They were always more about dictatorships. This is where Occupy steps in. It's based on anarcho-communism. The anarchic aspect is meant to eliminate the dictator. There are no leaders.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

oh you mean Anarchy hahaha! ok - good luck with that.

[-] 0 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

Your probably right about North Korea. I think that I met one North Korean in China, and he probably escaped.

I have seen a few Cubans abroad though.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

yea - they escaped.

[-] 1 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

What about all the Cubans in Florida? They let those go.

[-] 0 points by flip (7028) 2 years ago

you again - haven't you said enough stupid shit for one lifetime? your question is from the 50's - we are fighting different battles today - oh, i forgot - you can only imagine two systems - capitalism and communism - of the stalin variety. not really communism anyway but no reason to debate that with an idiot (that would be you in case you didn't know). have you tried to book a flight to cuba from the land of the free and home of the brave. go ahead - i'll wait...........ok - to your question - first is china commie or capitalist? you need to tell me since you are running the debate here. i see lots of those people touring nyc and europe - one married my swedish friend - met him in sweden in 1994. also i see cubans all over the world - whenever there is a disaster they send dos etc so i am guessing the answer to your question is no - what do you think - well thinking is the wrong word for what you do!

[-] 2 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

I like the your genius method of attacking with vulgarities & insults. very intellectual of you. That only tells me you've lost.

[-] 1 points by flip (7028) 2 years ago

impressive counter argument - declare victory and go home - now please go home

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

Hard to count when most of them are comming in illegally.

[-] 0 points by MVSN (768) from Stockton, CA 2 years ago

Good.

[-] -2 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Oh yeah,lots of opportunity in China. You can't be serious.

[-] 3 points by hymie (391) 2 years ago

I worked in China myself for a year. There must be hundreds if not thousands of jobs for English teachers there.

Many foreigners in China also work at jobs like management, finance, architecture, etc. Many people in the building trades also find work there.

[-] 2 points by Kevabe (81) 2 years ago

Please UPS, we need you to ship all these OWS scallywags off to North Korea so they can finally live their communist dream.

[-] 2 points by randart (498) 2 years ago

Did you know that America has more people in prisons than nearly every other country in the world? I have long wondered why we all call this the land of the free while we lock up so many people.

Do you ever wonder if you have been fed a lie all along?

[-] 1 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

statistics for imprisioned people in other contries the same size as the USA are manipulated. In a police state, forget about prision, you're executed after a kangaroo court trial or no trial at all. saddam hussein used to throw live people into industrial shreders.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

You don't need to compare with the same size population. You can compare with the percentage of people in prison. That way you can compare US to Canada or European countries. Your argument only works for some countries, and I have no idea why you bring Saddam Hussein in your argument about countries with similar population size. Iraq doesn't have near 300 million people.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

but under hussein, anyone that broke their so called laws was more than likely murdered by the govt.than imprisoned. that made for a low prison population. it's the same in with other dictatorships and totalitarian theocracies.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Yes, but your argument was about countries the size of USA, then you used Hussein as an example. This seems a tad strange and illogical since Iraq is a small country with a small population.

In any case, your argument is not very strong since the world is not only made up of USA and totalitarian regimes. There are many other republic democracies like USA and all of them have fewer people in prison. Look at the percentage of Canadians that are in prison. The percentage of Norwegians, of French, Germans, etc... Compare apples with apples.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

maybe the USA has better criminal opportunites.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Nah, it's just because the guests on Jerry Springer represent Americans quite well.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

i dont watch springer . you do?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

I saw a few episodes back in the day. I haven't owned a television in 15 years. I don't watch it now.

[-] 0 points by fandango (241) 2 years ago

you're not mising anything. i dont watch network t.v. just old ( black and white ) movies.

[-] 2 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago
  1. If these countries are "locking people in" they wouldn't be coming here.

  2. Thanks to laws, they can go to college here for free, or damn near.

  3. They can work here tax free for a decade

  4. Our dollar(some how) is still strong in some areas. They come here and ship our money "back home"

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

Point #1 & #2 seem contradictory no? I recall makeshift boats occasionally floating off Cuba trying to reach Florida No ?

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

Check out my comment about 2 posts down

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Point 11 and 12 seem to contradict each other.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

How many people are coming here from North Korea? Cuba? China? How many people came here from the Soviet Union? East Germany? The post was about Communist Countries sealing their borders so the citizens cant leave. If communism is so good - why do they need to lock people in? If America is so horrible - why are people coming here?

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Many from China. In Canada, 10% of the population is Chinese. It's the number one ethnic group from a foreign country.

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

Thanks for the question. I found an interesting answer. In 2010:

North Korea: 35

Cuba: 33,573

China: 70,863

Afghanistan: 2,017

Ethiopia: 14,266

FORMER Soviet Union: 4,978

Germany: 6,888

Somalia: 4,558

Russia:6,718

Luxembourg: 22

Ireland: 1,507

Kuwait: 1,037

Looks like nobody's locked in anywhere. Go ahead, name a country

They are coming here for the perks, like education, money, and a chance to make it

[Deleted]

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

35 are permanent residents. I didn't look at Visa's, blah, blah, blah. But if you read, I said they were interesting results. I'm not saying aries was wrong, I'm also not saying he's right. He said people couldn't leave their countries. I've proven they leave quite often. This also doesn't count people who go to other countries(we're not the center of the world, y'know)

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

all connected rich people. I am impressed with NK 35 people actually escaped

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

I love how it always comes down to rich people with you idiots. Believe it or not, only 3 were business related and the rest were for family. I like how you sidestep the other countries you mention. I guess those 33k Cubans all have rich connections,too?? Those numbers don't count those here on visa either

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

what's your source? Please provide the link

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/publications/LPR10.shtm

All the immigration info you could want.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

excellent. how about when communism was at its peak in the cold war? do you have stats on that since that is where you wan to take us?

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

I never brought up the Cold War. Nobody did, for that matter, that's where you did because you know you're wrong. So since I've defeated your argument, you think you can achieve a win because you know I can't get those numbers (the Cold War was almost 50 years in total, after all. Even if I could, there is no way to prove their accuracy as most records are lumped together. How about you tell me and give me your source. You won't because you know you can't.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

just asking. So soviet union & China didnt murder millions who opposed them & then sealed their borders - that is what you are telling me?

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

Killing millions (of enemies) during 50 years of skirmishes and a few actual events, yes. Sealed borders?? Sure. That's what countries do in a war. People still left the countries though. http://www.jstor.org/pss/27502372. Why are we talking about the Cold War again?? So yes, yet again, you are wrong.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

oh - is that what you call millions killed "skirmishes" lol! I bet you dont call the Iraq war a so called "Skirmish".

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

Yes. The bulk of the Cold War was skirmishes. There were major events(Korea for example) and smaller ones. Millions died from natural causes during the same period of time(50 years is a long time) also.

Iraq was a war. There were skirmishes there to. Just as there were in Afghanistan. It's not like everyone runs head on into each other and the guy at the top of the pile wins.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

So Stalin & Mao didnt starve & shoot millions of people when they confiscated their property farms means of sustinance etc. ?

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 2 years ago

Give me proof of your claims. I'm tired of educating you. You teach me something. By teach, I also mean give me credible references.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Wow, when there is a large migration of people leaving this country (which I think we will witness soon)--you know that the you-know-what-hit the fan.

I am not just talking about immigrants from latin american going back to their countries, I speak of all Americans who decide that this country is going in a very bad direction and want out. It is a shame that it is come to that, but that is the signs of the times really.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

are you going to be be joining the mass migration soon to leave the U,S, ? Where will you be going? Utopia bound is where? What a genius!

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

There is no such thing as utopia. Anyone who believes there is a true utopian society here on earth is in la-la land. However, if the country is going in a very bad direction and the rest of the American people will not stand up and fight for the rights--I am not sticking around! A few people protesting isn't going to make a difference--we need a large army of people out there protesting and holding the powers that be in D.C. and on Wall street accountable.

Believe, there is life outside of the U.S.. Have you ever stepped outside of the U.S? Judging by what you wrote, I don't think you have.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

new gallup poll - vast majority disagree with OWS pointing at big business as the threat. vast majority blame big government as I've been saying all along. you are all alone. I've been to Europe & Jamaica

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

I say we protest both, and I think OWS is going to be spending more time in D.C. protesting from what I am gathering.

However, with that said, the Wall Street criminals cannot be ignored, they belong in jail with Bernie Madoff. If they don't go to jail for their crimes against the American people and Global investors, then Bernie Madoff is owed one big apology.

Yes, it's funny how some criminals go to jail and others get off scott free. I guess it pays to buy Congress and have them give you nothing more than a slap on the wrists for your banking crimes. Well, so much for justice.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

who's accepting the bribe? look - If I come to you and ask for a favor & offer to pay you - just say no - who took the oath the congressman or the bankers?

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Well, our Congressmen and women took the oath, however there are ethic laws that the bankers should be held by, and it is by those laws they condemn themselves for their stupid and greedy criminal acts against the American People.

Also, our Congressmen and women are bought out through the corporate lobbyists in D.C. They are paid to represent big business, and to ignore us (which they are doing a pretty good job of lately.)

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

who is held accountable at the ballot box? who campaigned and made promises to you? Business is in business for one thing profit. If the govt is corrupt we need to vote them out. your aim is off because you think the government is your savior.

[-] 1 points by Windsofchange (1044) 2 years ago

Once again there are laws that the banksters violated and they need to be held accountable. Why should they be above the law? By not holding them accountable it is a form of enabling.

Yes, there needs to be serious change in congress. I say there should be a vote of no confidence. I mean really their approval rating is at 9%. How the heck should they be able to keep there jobs with that low of an approval rating? I also suggest term limit reform.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

what laws were violated? can you please be more specific so we can properly debate the issue?

[-] -1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

right - migrants are leaving. What about everybody else? What about the other question about locking people in?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

"Ever Wonder Why All The Communist Countries Lock Their People In?"

Hmmm... Let's see:

  • The same reason the US does the exact same thing to about a third of it's population, including me?

  • To protect them from all of the evil exploitive capitalists roaming around outside their borders?

  • To protect them from having to listen to this anti-Communist propaganda?

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

you are locked in? how?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

There are about a thousand reasons that the State Department can (and often does) use to arbitrarily deny someone a passport.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

so you are an American citizen who has been denied a passport? Gee I wonder what you did to get their attention?

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 2 years ago

Not sure... Think I scratched my ass in front of a TSA worker or something.

[-] 1 points by ubercaput (175) from New York City, NY 2 years ago

Because they are empoverished...

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

If only more people knew why the USSR became the way it did. Study your history, open your minds and ears. Rest not on what you already know or believe, education is not only meant for jobs, it is to make you more knowledgable. I can already tell you that one reason the USSR became a police state, was because of the Russian civil war (1919-1921). After the revolution the western capitalist countries invaded Bolshevik Russia to replace the regime. It was an attempt to put tsar Nicholas II back on the throne, which would ultimately fail. The war transformed the party led by Lenin into a military state, which defended socialism and then ended up becoming and remainig a dictatorship.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

and so what - it's the western capitalist's fault hahaha ? what have you been smoking ? and where can I get some?

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 2 years ago

There are many factors, I was only stating one example. In history nothing ever happens on it's own. Ask yourself this question: what would the USSR have been like if the capitalist powers had not attacked it? Certainly in my opinion the leaders would not have been as paranoid as they became. Then their domestic policies would have been different because of the different mind setting. Which would mean less tyranny and less fear of people defecting to the west.

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

you are brilliant! don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Good luck to you.

[-] 1 points by opensociety4us (914) from Norwalk, CT 2 years ago

not really; communism is so passe.

[-] 1 points by Publictakeover (5) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I don't know of any communist countries. China is as 1% oligarchy capitalist as we are. Besides, the real issue isn't a cliche or label, it's the actual power structure of a country. Is it truly horizontal, democratic and anti-authoritarian, with equal justice and opportunity for all? Or is it just a ruling elite controlling all the wealth, government machinery, and resources (including media), no matter what guise behind which it conceals its true inner workings? Coke or Pepsi?

[-] 2 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

and you are going to change all this. good luck - new gallup poll - vast majority disagree's with you.

[-] 1 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago

There is no place left in the world that you can still go to that is not horrible - thanks to global predatory capitalism. Coming to the US does not make it not a horrible place - rather possibly a less horrible place. Even the latter is not as true as it used to be.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/far-fewer-enter-u-s--illegally-from-mexico.html

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

I dont know - everyone I know - if you do the right things in life - you can have a pretty nice middle class life at least. At best - even better. If you do the wrong things - good things dont usually happen.

[-] 1 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Are they locking their people in or locking you out? That is key. The question that you need to ask is why do they NOT want you in?

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

it's both

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Why do they NOT want you in?

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

because they do not want a corrupting influence to the status quot.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Yep. Anyone can travel to any of the alleged communist countries. Except North Korea which does not allow South Koreans or journalists in. We have not seen true communism in action. We never will.

[-] 1 points by TheEvilFuckaire (208) 2 years ago

Locking people in? You mean like the huge F@CKING fence we built between the Corporate States and Mexico? So, Canadians and Americans can't leave the Corporate States of America without an ID? You are right it is just communists that do it. Or, maybe, it is oppressive regimes no matter what economic system they claim to be using?

[-] 1 points by aries (463) from Nutley, NJ 2 years ago

oh - so you think the fence is to keep Americans in & not to keep Mexicans from coming here illegally? interesting take - I've not yet heard that one lol!

[-] 1 points by TheEvilFuckaire (208) 2 years ago

Obviously not to keep Mexicans out. Look around at all the Mexicans. Not saying Mexicans are bad. Just that there are lots of them here. I am sure the Soviets had some story they told the public about how the Berlin Wall was protecting them from something. You know our corporate government loves cheap labor and so, probably does not care if illegal immigration drives down wages for Americans.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Why do you think America is a horrible place? America is a great country with so much potential.

[-] 1 points by BLUTODOG (111) 2 years ago

We don't have to we just make them so poor they can't go anywhere.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

cause they ain't got no property

[-] 1 points by afarmer (65) 2 years ago

I wish more people would get informed. I don't think Homeland Security is made to protect us, but rather imprison us. "If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” ― James Madison

Communism is when the government and labor (Communist Party) combine to control companies (join Communist Party and give up profits) and also controls all labor - personal wealth (police state is a must). Communism owns and controls everything. Corporate fascism is when the government combines with corporations and controls everything but doesn't own everything. Both pick and chose the winners and believe in giving up the people's rights for the good of the collective (for communists it's society, and for fascists it's national); they both end with two classes of people, the rich and the poor. Communism and fascism talk a good game about the building the middle class (while not in power), but there is no middle class in both. In communism the Communist Party is the rich, the people are equally poor (but at least their equal), and in fascism the rich are the government and the corporations that the government picks by destroying their competition, thus leaving them with a monopoly. So communism is not a good alternative for fascism.

[-] 1 points by pinker (586) 2 years ago

Well, this is a valid point. There is still more opportunity here than third world countries. It's all relative.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 2 years ago

Ever try to exit and re-enter the US of A in the past few years?