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Forum Post: Equal pay for every job is the only peaceful solution.

Posted 2 years ago on Feb. 26, 2012, 2:06 p.m. EST by FriendlyObserverB (1871)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

If we created a system of equal pay for all jobs it would be the fairest system imaginable.

We would all have an equal standard of living.

There would be no more " gap in wealth " ..no more poverty ..

Equal pay is the only way for the future of mankind.

An hour-coin for an hours work .. paid equally for everyone , including training.

An hour-coin system will have unlimited potential everyone wanting and willing will have opportunity to pursue their interests. The future and development of mankind will be unleashed like never before imagined. With unlimited potential !

Think of the future , the dreams we will make come true.

With no more wars, equal pay will be a worldwide system .ensuring the weakest link in the chain will receive the attention it is needed for the safety and well being of all .

We are in this together , for generations to come .

It is time we consider life without personal greed and begin considering life for all of humanity.

129 Comments

129 Comments


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[-] 3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

This is an idea that only appeals to a small fraction of the 99%. This is not a productive proposal because it's totally unrealistic, because it would be impossible to assemble a broad base of support for this idea.

Despite our inherent points of disagreement, liberals and conservatives CAN agree about certain changes to our system that are necessary. We don't all agree about abortion or universal health care, but we DO all tend to agree that lobbyists should not wield the kind of power that they do. None of us will ever be able to accomplish any of our goals, left or right, with the current corrupt system of quid pro quo in Washington. And both the left and the right can similarly agree about eliminating Super PACs.

We need to set aside our ideological issues in order to form a broad base of support for fixing the system itself. Proposals like this one are non-starters and therefore a waste of time.

Our challenge is not to build a movement that coheres around a common set of values. No one’s going to convince every conservative to become a liberal, or every liberal to become a conservative. Our challenge is to build an alliance that can agree about the need for a fundamental change in the system itself.

http://mojoe.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/24/10495432-an-excerpt-from-lawrence-lessigs-new-e-book-one-way-forward

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

When the whole world goes to hell in a handbasket they will not be trying to get money out of politics. They will be looking for system to turn to.

[-] 3 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

If this proposal depends on the whole system burning down to the ground then it's not a realistic proposal. This is not Mad Max.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

You can not put the genie back in the bottle. Think of the hour- coin system as an improved operating system. Why would you resist improvement !

[-] 2 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Because I don't necessarily agree that it's an "improvement". And because it's completely unrealistic.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

It's because you don't fully understand. An unlimited budget is an improvement. Deny it if you wish.

[-] 2 points by kingscrossection (1203) 2 years ago

Its unrealistic because an unlimited budget is impossible. Besides you're only halfway there. If you wanted a completely "perfect" system then why don't you push for a system with no currency?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Impossible for your mind to understand. But not impossible.

A system without currency? Animals don't use currency. If you were marooned on a deserted island you wouldn't need currency. If you are an inmate you wouldn't need currency. Now there's a place for you ! You could live in prison where currency is not needed. Hahaha

[-] 0 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

I guess you don't know anyone who's ever been in prison......there are certainly "currencies" in prison......as well as a hierarchy....

how do you intend to compensate the disparity in responsibility and overall effort with your "hour coin" system.....how do you suppose you will encourage people to endure the necessary sacrifice and struggle to learn the skills necessary to organize and manage large enterprises......or are you so naive as to fail to understand the years of effort that go into developing the ability to perform those tasks?

You really think the guy who sweeps the floor for 20 years is equal to the person who works on their personal development, formal and self-education, and the development and cultivation of the proper behaviors and habits that enable one to rise to such levels?

your idea is simplistic, stupid, and foolish......

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I believe the guy who sweeps the floor works just as hard as anyone else and deserves equal compensation.

And with paid training everyone will advance at their own pace and their own interest without the struggle or worry of money. Ie education costs today have dampened the evolution of mankind. With unlimited training and research mankind will rise above anything you ever imagined.

[-] 1 points by MrSane (1) from Breezy Point, NY 2 years ago

The guy who sweeps the floor didn't have the motivation to go to school. He didn't have the motivation to work long hard hours improving his life. Instead he opted to go the easy route, low paying but he can get drunk and smoke weed every night. Intelligence AND motivation is lacking in some. We can't subsidize these things using the smarter mans money, THAT is interfering with evolution. There are all types in this world, and we each CHOOSE our own way, he landed that job based on his actions up to that point. To say that he should be paid the same as a scientist striving to make a drug against cancer is simple minded.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

My argument is that not every one will choose the low road. And you support my argument with this comment.

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[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Okay so than by your own words you admit motivation is not money. The floor sweeper had the same monetary incentive to train and be a doctor. Why did he not ?

[-] -1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

IF you believe that, you have obviously never held a position of great responsibility, or managed people......it only take a short time of seeing the disparity of effort to understand why some advance and others don't, and why some earn more than others......

You apparently have this fantasy that if everything is provided for people THEN they will rise to the occasion......which is completely false and myopic, those who rise to the occasion do so regardless of the circumstances, good or bad. You apparently also believe that somehow YOU and others are justly due the fruits of the labor of others, just because you exist, and regardless of your own efforts, and that shirkers, bums and slackers are due equal compensation to the industrious, diligent, energetic and productive.......

Who do you think would "pay" in this imaginary system of yours? Why would anyone work or strive in life if they only receive the same compensation for that extra effort as the person who just does enough (or doesn't) to "get by"

'MrSane' addressed why the floor sweeper, and the like, didn't train to be a doctor....because he is lazy an lives a life of base pleasure and leisure seeking......the low end of human achievement is that way because they can't be bothered to rise above that level, they see it as too hard, and they would rather just not have to work hard, or at all, if possible..........

The motivation of most is NOT money.....that is the only thing you have correct.....compensation is an effect, not a cause, but...if you remove the effect the cause will follow, almost no one would spend 8-10 years of their lives to become a doctor, or 5-7 years of their lives to become an attorney, or any other professional position, if there was no reward or increased lifestyle associated with doing so......and the one's who might are not the sort you would want in those positions anyway, as they are not motivated by achievement or personal advancement......the desire for improvement is the same desire that creates advancement in society, and the same desire that expects to be compensated for the increased responsibility and effort......

Are you really this stupid? Do you know nothing about human nature?

you bring up "evolution", do you understand that concept......evolution isn't about species uniformity, it's about the rise of the exceptional and the elimination of the marginal.......

your idea's are De-evolutionary......

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

The one percent have been living off the "fruits of other peoples labor" for many many generations.

Slammerboy , there is a lot you don't understand.

For one, many of those struggling at the bottom are exhausted and near giving up. With equal pay it gives them new hope.

Again , with all training paid for , there will be students lining up for miles and miles. No shortage there.

Somehow , you have difficulty recognizing the value of a janitor and you refuse to show him any respect. Why is this ?

[-] 1 points by Breadwinner (33) 2 years ago

What about the part of the 1% who busted there asses to become the 1%? Do they deserve to lose what they have earned so that the janitor can benefit from his lack of work and education?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Yes.

[-] 1 points by Breadwinner (33) 2 years ago

So, you are infact here just trolling. Got it.

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[-] -1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

no..."I", unlike you, DO understand the VALUE of the janitor, and I DO respect ALL labor, by NOT overvaluing lesser effort/responsibility tasks in comparison to those that are higher......

the "1%" live off of the investment of accumulated resources, investment that creates and sustains both old and new enterprise, and creates or maintains employment and production.......

In the realm of practical economics, and human nature/psychology....there is very little I don't understand, or...like yourself....Ignore....

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I don't hear any of the janitors complaining about equal pay.

What the backriders are really worried about is being equal with everyone else. No more free rides hiding behind secrecy.

[-] -1 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (-184) 2 years ago

yeah..."backriders"....like those who market, sell and display products that most would never know, see or hear about without the services of so-called "backriders"

How many "no thanks" would a salesman suffer through and accept if they were paid equally with everyone else? Without the financial motivation of becoming a convincing salesman how many companies would remain small and not expand employment and production?

you are so fucking stupid it's pathetic........

[-] 0 points by gforz (-43) 2 years ago

Can't you tell he's not serious? He's just trolling.

[-] -1 points by Dell (-168) 2 years ago

sign me up for pencil sharpener. As long as I am being paid the same as a surgeon what the heck. Great idea freak !

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I have you down for dogcatcher !

[-] 0 points by Dell (-168) 2 years ago

just as good - thanx!

[-] 1 points by OppositionFromSocialistSweden (1) 2 years ago

Ok so I would like to get some points clearified..

I think I can see somehow what you are thinking. Of course this will not be a possible today, but I personally think we are about to experience some extreme changes in the next coming 10 years ( the system as it is today does not work, but it has more to do with the increasing speed of population groth and fiscal policies).. So as I said, I think we are about to see large changes, maybe not this big though...

Your view on how people work does not fit in reality though. Yet again, this is as of today, in the future we might be more open minded. But there will always be something called egoism. Always. If this system was implemented worldwide, people would start to find ways to benefit on the behalf of others. Because in the end, the majority cares for themself in first hand.

A sustainable system has to be based on performance in a more complex way then work more hours, gain more.. I think there has to be some kind of overlooking organ responsible for public "things" //lack of other words...// (this because people are egoistic) which means taxes has to be collected.

Anyways I hope you understand what I mean. I am trying to be objective because I think you are trying to be somewhat reasonable.. I myself am studying at highest possible level in Sweden and as many of my classmates my goal is set on sectors such as WallSt.. I agree that there is a possibility, in the future, that capitalism will have less effect on our choises, but I do not think we will ever reach a point where people will accept your system. And conclusionly, I do not think we have to go there. Do you not agree with the fact that there has to be differences? This is accepted, but the question is rather how large the optimal gap is, and how to get there...

[-] 1 points by martymart (2) 2 years ago

I havent read through the comments, but isnt this pretty much communism? or at least a part of communism? I was taught communism the government tells its citizens what job they have and its all equal pay. It does make sense to have balance in this country, i just dont know if this is the way or not, just my opinion :)

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I believe in communism they still collect taxes. With the hour- coin , tax collecting becomes abolished.

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[-] 1 points by aflockofdoofi (-18) 2 years ago

I volunteer to be a porn actor. You can be a crab fisherman at the Arctic Circle.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

So here is a question: would there be different products or just one choice? By your proposal of everything equal, only one type of car would be made, as how would anyone purchase something at another price (Ferrari vs a cheap compact)? No one would have any more hour coins for any higher quality item. In today's world, I need to work harder, more often and be more skillful, etc to make enough money to purchase the higher, desirable quality that I want. Let's start there as I have lots more to ask.

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[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

Okay, then how do I acquire more hour coins? Since all hour coins are the same, and there are so many hours in the day that I would work. And there are other costs that are that required that are the same to live, etc. Since there is no profit, there is no extra hour coins in the system and everything would be flattened so that all hour coins are consumed at the same rate they are generated. The product sold can not generate more hour coins than the value added (hours) to the product. So now what?

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[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

I am waiting for your answer to my question below to continue our discussion. You have proposed a new system and I would like your explanation on how it works in detail. I see you have been posting other topics since but if you decide to post you should have the courtesy to reply to questions before starting new posts.

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[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

You did not follow the question just below this reply, instead you went back to the above post. Why the change of tone when I have practical questions. Ar you having trouble explaining what you are proposing or did I just begin to find the holes in your proposal of hour coins. So tell me FOB, which is it. You have been challenged, are you up to it? However, if you refuse to answer how you proposal works, it will be your credibility that is lost, not mine.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

More hours? How would I do that? I want to do other thing besides work! You are assuming there are unlimited hours for everyone. Would there be a credit system for borrowing of hour coins? Otherwise I would have to save hour coins for a long time to do anything. And things would be made to buy only, there would be no inventory build... More to come on that.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Wonderful thoughts, my friend. But with everyone earning the same, it would then maybe be a good idea to make many services free of charge (when you need them), so money (circulation) - which to certan extent dehumanizes us - will be less dominant in society.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y8_2BBlar4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXevpVXzePc

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (356) 2 years ago

Money is only a unit of measure that allows trading of services, labor, products more efficient. There will always be some type of unit that provides for this. It won't go away unless we go back to the barter system which is impossible in the world of today. Nothing can be free due to the requirement of hour coins paid to cover the services provider and their expenses ( which also require more hour coins). The hour coins must come from somewhere, no the sky.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

An equal distribution of wealth and equal opportunity for everyone with an unlimited budget , we can unleash mankinds full potential in research and development. Our hands would be untied. And if someday we develop a free system without monetary currency so be it. But right now all I have to offer is an unlimited budget based on equal pay utilizing an hour-coin paid equally for all training and labor. I am not asking anyone to work or train for free. They will be equally rewarded for their efforts. I feel this is a huge leap from what we have now , looking at the worldwide inhuman conditions that so many endure while others have extreme accumulations of wealth. The system is not going to correct itself this is apparent and obvious.

Thanks for your response to this post

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 2 years ago

Again, wonderful thoughts. You are a noble human being. Keep it up :)

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

If this is feasible, it is a very far in the future idea. Is it possible that one day education will become so free, accessible, and widely disseminated, that everyone will be remarkably brilliant, and what are the most mundane and arduous tasks today, like low skilled manufacturing and agricultural harvesting, will one day be done through highly automated processes (using tools like robotics), where equal pay would be feasible? Sure, I think this is conceivable.

In anarchist Spain, for a total of three years, there was a very equal system, where there was some scientific innovation and research, but a three year experiment is hardly conclusive in terms of quantifying feasibility. As it stands today, it's not a feasible idea, because many functions are highly specialized, require a high degree of intelligence and training, and thus require incentives (and under our current framework, incentives equal remuneration).

It's likely that genetics is a major component of intelligence, but there may be much more to the picture than we're currently aware of. However, under a presumption that only a small portion of the population will be capable of performing at a high intellectual level, the question becomes will people do this without incentives?

The answer, thus far, has been a resounding NO. But, this answer could be deceptive. Only as we move closer to true democracy will we be able to better understand the possibilities.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Thank you !

You nailed a very important question. Incentive ?

We have never had total equality. Equal pay. The idea of the hour-coin has many aspects to consider. 1. It is unlimited. 2. It removes tax collecting. 3. Everyone will have opportunity with training provided and paid for. Never again will there be shortage of work. 4. It may end war. 5. ?

The purchasing power of the hour- coin will depend on the efficiency of mankind. All product will be calculated at non profit.

There are ways to encourage and provide incentive other than monetary incentive. We will be challenged.

The benefits of an hour- coin system are enormous unmeasurable.

Now look at what we have. A budget system that leaves half the planet in poverty. And funding for research is limited. The NASA project has been mothballed.

There is too much to describe and explain here on this forum. Without insult OWS is not interested.

Whether the hour-coin system is successful is truly in the hands of the people. Let the chips fall where they may.

As for agriculture, many people love the profession though it may not be for you. This is the beauty of mankind we all have something to offer.

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[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Bpshebiski is correct. I would ask FriendlyObserverB if he needed surgery on one of his family members would he want the surgeon that had the same thought process as the guy behind the McDonalds drive up window or a surgeon that had the same thought process of a surgeon? I would ask him if he was to pick a surgeon for his mom or wife or daughter if he wants someone with higher goals or lower goals in life? I want to pay more for better skills. I hope he tells his family how much he loves them or doesnt love them.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I would ask the surgeon if he would prefer to work at Mcdonalds or strive for something personally fulfilling.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

I hope you are not in charge of your family healthcare.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

You hold the human race to a very low view.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

YOU would pick a surgeon that perfers to work at a McDonald's to give medical care to YOUR family and you think I have a low view on the human race.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

That was not my point.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

I think you made your point very clear. You want everyone to work like it is the Soviet Union.

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[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion5 (12) 2 years ago

Throughout history, no nation has used goat testicles to fuel motorcycles. Unlimited motorcycle fuel if they would just try it once!

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[-] 1 points by Bpshebiski (5) from Scottsdale, AZ 2 years ago

Problem: Equal pay for ALL jobs wouldn't work. Granted, some jobs need reduced pay, but why would you pay a Walmart greeter the same as a Heart Surgeon? Big skill difference here. Now, I will say that I believe soldiers definetly need far more pay.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

If we paid every job equally except a few we paid less, who would want to work the less paid jobs?

There is more to equal pay than the type of job you do. It's about fairness and equality of life. It's about creating a better world. A beautifulworld !

[-] 2 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

People who don't have the skills for the better jobs will work the less paid jobs.

I don't see why it is necessary for everyone to have an equal quality of life. Some people are inherently smarter, stronger, harder working, luckier, etc. All those things will naturally lead to different quality of lives.

Even if everyone was paid the same, people would still have different qualities of life. Some people will wisely invest their wages for the future where others will buy oxycodone with those same wages so you will still have people with vastly different qualities of life.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Mooks did you become a dentist because of monetary incentive ?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

No, I truly like it. But at same time I would not have done it if it did not pay well because of how much schooling it was. I did not actually cash a pay check until I was 28 and had to go through some pretty miserable weeks over the course of those 10 years. And I still spend a lot of time and money on continuing ed classes. The reward has to be there.

So I guess you could say it was partially monetary incentive but also because I shadowed for awhile and really did think it was cool, and still do.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Would you feel any different if all training was paid.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

No, I graduated with a lot of debt but that was because I got a lot of training, and I made enough money after graduation to pay down my debt. I thought the amount I paid was more than fair considering what I got in return.

It is more the personal sacrifice, and I know that sounds silly because it is not like I went off to war. But there were a lot of sleepless nights studying, board exams, worrying about requirements, doing research, lab work. Just a ton of stress and anxiety. My wife and I put off our marriage and starting a family for a number of years also because we didn't think it was fair for our future kids to start a family when we were each putting in 60+ hours per week in dental school.

I love being a dentist, but looking back on it and knowing what dental school is truly like, I might not do it again. It took forever and it was often miserable. And I definitely wouldn't if it did not pay well.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

So than it is about the money for you.

Mooks your credibility is at stake. Do you honestly feel paid training would change nothing !

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

No, because those years of training were miserable. If I was going to make the same amount of money regardless of what I did, I would have kept the same job I had in high school - pushing carts at WalMart. It was good exercise and I got to be outside all day, completely stress free, and you would get an occasional cold beer from a friendly customer.

I don't think my credibility is at stake. I just think equal salary is not necessary to have equal rights. We could probably do more to provide equal opportunities, but the possibility of obtaining a better than average lifestyle for yourself and your family is something that motivates a lot of people to do great things. And I don't mean .0001% superwealthy. The top 10% is by definition obtainable by 1 out of 10 people. It is a realistic goal for millions of people and it drives people to better themselves because ultimately you want more highly trained people in society than cart pushers.

I think you seriously overestimate the amount of people that believe a job is not about the money at least to some extent.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

You underestimate what truly motivates a person. If you think everyone would push carts.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

If people just did whatever they wanted who would pump out the port-o-potties? I know a guy that does and he makes $115K per year and he did not even graduate high school. It is a disgusting job though. Do you really think we would have enough port-o-pottie pumpers if they merely received an average salary?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Going to school is a lot easier than pushing shopping carts all day.

Equal pay would separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps kooks you are chaff pretending to be wheat ?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

As someone who did both for many years, I can assure you pushing carts is much easier than dental school. Those mirrors take some getting used to and as a result your body is battered from contorting yourself in strange positions all day. It was much more demanding, both physically and mentally, than pushing around some plastic shopping carts. It really is not even comparable.

And you can call me whatever you want. Ultimately I worked my ass off, and still do, and I make a lot of people happy every day. And I have a good salary to show for it. I am sure the majority of the 99% would agree that there is nothing wrong with that.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

A dentist might enjoy the life in his profession , but would not consider becoming a carpenter. And same would be true for the opposite, a carpenter may enjoy his profession and not consider dentistry. Both very skilled work though one much more physical. Equal pay satisfies them both as equal human beings.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

You are living in a "fantasy land" thinking like this. Don't you understand what the "real world" is like.

Have you ever ventured outside the borders of this country to see what the rest of the world is like?

You will never see this happen in your lifetime. As a matter of fact no one will ever see it.

People are individual thinkers and as such want individuality. Being a "commoner" and being treated like a "commoner" is not in the spirit of being an American and that is not how this country was developed.

Why do you think this country is so advanced? It's because of the opportunity to do so and the reward for doing it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Life would be more advanced with an unlimited budget.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

And just where would this "unlimited budget" come from?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

From many moments of deep contemplation. Something which I do not care to explain while engaged in a defensive argument. In show of faith if you want more you will have to "cross the aisle" offer a sign of agreement and optimism of how an unlimited budget would change the world as we know it. This will take a bit of thinking on your part. Just imagine what we can do with an unlimited budget of equal pay as an hour- coin for an hours work without limit for all labor both physical or mental including training. Can you see any benefit?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I didn't disagree with you about what the "unlimited budget" could do, I just asked the question" where would this come from".

The way I see it, nothing is for free and someone is going to have to provide some kind of labour to do this and that's not free.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Do you want an unlimited budget ?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

as money flows through commerce,

areas of high accumulation can be tapped

to place money back in the hands of the people

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

How would you tap this, presumably taxes, and what would be the results?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

total wealth would have be taxed to prevent all the money from stagnating

but people should be able to save reasonable amounts

the flow of money could also be taxed via income tax and that income can be tax at rising rates

those making more will still make more money even after taxes

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

And the results?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

just saw a chart that the top income was taxed by 77% in 1969

CA state college tuition was free

and we landed on the moon

http://occupywallst.org/forum/f-y-i-historical-tax-rates/

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

What would happen if you raised the top tax to 77% today ?

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[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

Then, is it fair that the surgeon would spend 8 plus years of his life and money to become a surgeon and be paid the same as the Walmart greeter with 15min of training?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

All training is paid.

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

By who? Even if that was possible, there is still the time and effort that is put into all of that training. Why would someone want to go through all of that to make what someone makes as a Walmart greeter? This is not a realistic model. Human nature will not follow it.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

The time is also paid for. Standing in a doorway greeting people all day ? Come on that isn't satisfying. Your argument has no ground at all.

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

Getting your GED and filling out a form at Walmart to be a greeter is hardly the time and mental investment that other professions are required. It is your argument that has no ground. I appreciate your wish for a utopia, but this really is not the direction. The reality is that we are wasting our time with this chat.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

You tend to speak for everyone when you say becoming a waart greeter is more appealing than than opening an interesting book with a classroom of students and advancing yourself with education.

Your argument is blunt and not well thought out. But yet you insist on keeping your mind closed.

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

Your condescending personal attacks waste a lot of time. You call my mind closed because I disagree with you. I work in an industry that studies human nature. In general, humans will do as little as possible to receive financial gain. It is engrained in us since we were hunter/gatherers and is not a moral judgement. You speak of enriching our lives. IF your utopia existed, I think that most people would find the easiest task to perform to obtain that "equal" income, then run off and vacation or whatever as much as possible. I do believe that there is a necessity for a passion in a subject to succeed at it. However, if you eventually do not receive the reward for that hard work and risk people will begin to find ways to do less and less. This in turn will guide society to a collapse. No one willing to do the dirty, boring or hard work. I think we can be a stronger society by having the rewards method for hard work. The "Walmart greeter" should never be the career choice, but a stepping stone or supplement to add income. Now, I assure you that the reason for my blunt, direct comment are because your comments tend to be short and curt as well. If you would follow your FriendlyObserver moniker and communicate with a little more respect, then I will respond in a similar manner.

[-] 2 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

So than by this you feel it is necessary to keep the masses broke and hungry to ensure their willingness to do the hard menial tasks. Such a heartless stance you have. Slavery worked well to, at back than you could use the whip to ensure your easy backriding life.

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

You have no idea the walk that I have walked and I make no assumptions on your path either. Probably the most appreciated and sometimes under appreciated thing about our country and others like the U.S. is the ability to change one's class standing. I do not say it is easy, but the opportunity lies right there before each and every one of us. In my work, I see those with great gifts and waste them. While others with out a lick of talent, succeed through sheer determination. Though I agree on having a social and economic safety net, that safety net should represent a helping hand up, not a hand out. You may see my stance as cold and heartless, but I see it as a direction to strengthen.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Equal pay is not a hand out. It's an opportunity.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment ) guaranteeing equal pay to women never passed

[-] 0 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

Equal pay for unequal investment in time and results. If we follow your approach, then I want to be a school crossing guard. Summers off, benefits, four hour work days and get paid what a surgeon or a banker makes. Works for me.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

But it is equal pay for equal time. And one must qualify through paid training for the profession of interest. Especially in the case of a surgeon.

[-] 1 points by wellhungjury (296) 2 years ago

Cool, then I want that crossing guard job at $120,000 annually. Or whatever amount everyone is agreed to be paid per year to each and every person in the U.S. for whatever task they want to do. Don't forget my benefits, my three months off in the summer and holiday time off.

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[-] 0 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

well this happened in Russia and that worked out well o wait it doesn't

there will be no such thing as equality in humans until people stop wanting things and until then there will always be a different in quality

sounds great on paper but it doesn't work out in the end

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Daniel, I am still waiting for your professors response to the letter I wrote on a previous post.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

i showed her that but i lost the link so never posted it. It took teo days for me to even get it back. But the jest of it was she didnt like it called it stupid and said that this person should go back to school. She also told me never to bring it up in class again because we need smart ideas to discuss. She doesnt want you to know her name class and never wants to talk to you. I thought she was being a little bitchy about it but hey she knows her shit so take it how it is.

ill take to another one of my professors who has an MBA and Masters in chemical engineering if you want but you have to find it because she kept the paper and i dont have it copied anymore.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Hah !

I don't believe a word you say.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

ok cool but it happened hell i got yelled at for your post how do you think that makes me feel

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Okay well tell her thanks anyhow. I won't disturb her with this again.

[-] 1 points by DanielBarton (1345) 2 years ago

yeah sounds good

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[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

this idea may hurt productivity, as creativity will lose its luster for one to obtain wealth, however, if this idea became a basis of our daily needs, people could still venture out on a 2nd job / entreapunearism (i know its mispelled i dont care lol) , that could prosper them

Ideally we need to find a way to encourage prosperity without obtaining it upon the backs or suffering of others.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

As a collective system it will find its balance. When everyone works hard and is productive , prices will drop. But if production drops prices will rise. This creates an incentive for efficiency.

Currently , hard work only profits the guy at the top. It profits the backrider.

Equal pay will provide everyone a share of the benefits.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 2 years ago

currently for a person like me however, who is under a different law, the law of the gospel to give to those in need, every time i take an employee i lose money in my business each and every year, and dont have the heart to lay him off. again, there is the dream world and the real world. Ill tell you what though having worked under this law of "faith" for lack of another defination, I can tell you that, it has generated a Kharmic wave of tsunami porportion in so much that while others were complaining of losing their jobs, my phone was ringing off the hook. Its strange and hard to explain, but I feel that doing what is right in my heart is more important than the profit in my bank account.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

It's hard to explain, but once we remove this" lust for money" we will all be happier.

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[-] 0 points by MrSane (1) from Breezy Point, NY 2 years ago

The sad words of a person that hasn't the intelligence and/or motivation to fend for themselves. I think most of you need to learn the meaning of "personal responsibility".

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

How would you define capitalist back- riding?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

How would you define capitalist back- riding?

[-] 0 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Under your scheme, how does society get someone to accept more responsibility, if pay is always the same? Or have someone perform more dangerous tasks, or those that are much more difficult and require a greater degree of skill?

Marx recognized the inherent necessity of unequal recompense, when he wrote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Have you heard of A type personalities? There are natural leaders amongst us. We all bring something to the melting pot. It will all work out fine. It will simply require the efficiency to recognize individual skill and talent. And guide/match profession with person.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Umm-hmm. I'm the manager of a retail store,and I would not accept the same pay as my employees for the work I do and the responsibility I bear.

That makes no sense at all. If I made the same, I wouldn't want to do any more than they do.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Well in an equal pay world. A lot of people at the top shouldn't be there. And they will be removed/placed elsewhere.

[-] 1 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

So, either accept equal pay or be shipped to the happy farm?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

In many cases the supervisor should be removed. In some cases it is a family member of the company with no talent what so ever.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Greed is a small minority.

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[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

It truly disappoints me that the occupy movement does not support equality.. And it was misleading for occupy to open up to the public with inequalities and unfair distribution of wealth as the premise of this movement.

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[-] -1 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

What is "fair" about the person fighting forest fires and risking their life making the same amount of money as the person who stuffs envelopes for a living?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Well, you need to understand. The equal pay/ hour- coin system will change the whole dynamics of how mankind handles the tasks necessary.

With equal pay and an unlimited budget we are now able to eleviate the unbalanced burden on society. Take fire fighting. We now have a shortag of water bombers and equipment because a lot of our resources are spent on wars. With equal pay this would be different. The dynamics would be different. Enough men would be hired and afforded with unlimited budget. All be it I agree firefighting to be a tough choice of career. But for some people they take great pleasure in helping when they can.

Perhaps you may prefer to lick stamps over anything arduous, and stamp licking is necessary and you will be paid.

[-] 1 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

Okay... how are jobs to be distributed? On a lottery system? Because, if the pay is the same, no one in their right mind would want to be a HAZMAT rescue diver, taxi driver, police officer, steel mill worker or Oregon logger because the risk is that much greater without any greater pay. Everyone would want to lick stamps or train puppies or mop floors. If jobs are awarded on the lottery system, that is even more unfair, because then people would be forced to risk their lives without any greater pay.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

You keep looking for the insolvable problem. What is your greatest concern over equal pay?

[-] 1 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

I'm not looking for it, it is staring me in the face.

So, in your ideal world, I would not be able to power wash my neighbor's deck for extra money because this is unfair? Would all private consensual and contractual economic transactions be conducted by the state to ensure no one ever gets ahead?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

Let me know when you have something positive to say.

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

And pray tell where this magical unlimited budget comes from? Once again,your whole idea is stupid.What do you do for a living pray tell?

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

What is fair about a millionaire paying the same price for fuel as a single mom earning minimum wage?

[-] 0 points by craigdangit (326) 2 years ago

Ah, yes. When I saw the alert pop up, and I clicked on it, before it loaded I thought to myself, "I bet the reply is going to start with 'What is fair about...'" Sigh. Do you want to re-answer the question? I didn't say taking money from millionaires and giving it to the poor war wrong or unfair, I said every person making the same wage was unfair. Re-answer?

[-] -1 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

So you believe that because a person makes more money they should be charged more for goods and services than someone who makes less? Aren't you just a bigot? Your hatred for success shines brightly.I'd say you haven't experienced much success in lie and are quite envious of those who have. Sad.

[+] -4 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

You're a moron. Why would anyone strive to be anything? If a doctor make as much as a McDonalds burger flipper what's the point? Your idea is just a lame way to make lazy bastards equal to hard working folk just because they're lazy. Screw that. I bet you're one of those lazy bastards aren't you?

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[-] -1 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Lol,low self esteem? I do very well for myself. I could do even better but I prefer a nice balance of free time to spend with my family. Once again,paying everyone the same amount is just catering to lazy bastards who have no drive or initiative to improve themselves. Why should they prosper as well as someone who chooses to be a doctor,invests the time and money to do so,and then provides a highly valuable service to people? The whole idea is idiotic to say the least.If you can't see that then maybe you're one of those lazy bastards.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I am disappointed by the low class comments that have come out of the so called upper class.

Did you know Germany was considered an upper class nation by their neighbors. During the ww2 we seen what atrocities the upper class are capable of. Is it true those with all the wealth are pure evil?

[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

That's right,when you have no answer,change the subject. That just shows how lame your post is fool.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Really? As if you know anymore than I choose to tell you(one way or another :-) ) Here's a few,I donate to charities 3%(It's not as much as it should be but it's all I can squeeze in the budget), i take care of half a dozen families,hvac,plumbing,electrical,general repairs,etc,at no charge other than parts because I know they can't afford it. I'm a Freemason. Freemasonry is one of the most charitable organizations there is. We raise money for many different charities and volunteer in many different places in the community.Many people don't know that Shriners are a branch of Freemasonry but everyone knows about the Shriners Childrens Hospitals.I believe in doing a stranger a good turn with the only hopeful expectation that it be passed along to someone else. I've raised two sons with my wife of 30 years and worked hard all of those years to support and take care of them.See the big difference that I see between you and I is I believe in personal responsibility and you seem not to.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Oh? Then you have done this? Or is it that you just don't have the will to succeed? I'm betting on the latter.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Sure I have,I've pointed out the stupidity in your proposition.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

No,I grasp your point of view,how else could I come to my conclusion lol? I just fiind it stupid.

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[-] 0 points by Perspective (-243) 2 years ago

Very witty reparte. Heheheh Your whole idea is ignorant.