Forum Post: Equal pay = Fairness
Posted 12 years ago on April 27, 2012, 9:49 a.m. EST by FriendlyObserverB
(1871)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
An hour - coin for an hours work, equally for everyone, creates an environment of peace.
An hour-coin economic system has unlimited advantages over the current tax-collecting budget system.
An hour-coin gives freedom to the whole world.
http://coalitionofsocialmovements.blogspot.com/ http://coalitionforsocialchange.wordpress.com/
Liberals come up with ideas for a new system and it always involves compensation equality, (see Soviet Union failure). My friend and I have discussed this during our workouts at the local Rec. Center. The Ideal job for us is at the Rec. center watching people workout as a monitor. If I exercise almost everyday, I may as well be a monitor and get paid to do the workout. I would certainly not be in the job I have now, with equal pay for everyone, there would be no reason to make the sacrifices I do traveling, working 50+ hours a week if I can't be in the top 1-1/2 to 2% income.
Job opportunity wil be available by priority. As a collective will all benefit by efficient effort.
Whats that mean? What priority?
and what of the greedy land hogs who drove up the cost of living on our homes, we now have to pay twice as much for a home as well as pay for another home for rich bankers in interest? The problem is alot more deep rooted than is apparent.
If I can make the same amount as a doctor doing as little as possible with as little skill as needed, then why would I need an education and why would anyone want to work hard to earn an education? Simplistic ideas like this is why OWS will never be taken seriously. Why does everyone want cheap college, to go to school, earn a degree and be able to earn more money. Plain and simple. Take that incentive away and we will have a nation of idiots digging ditches for your ignorant "hour-coin for an hours work" junk.
So............ no one has an interest in stuff other than money(?) Interesting.
I like the thought - let us see if it pans out.
Remove money from the equation - will everyone stop doing what they are doing?
Hhmmmmmmmmm maybe that's not the way to test this theory.
I know - roll reversal - those at the top get the least and those at the bottom doing the most work get the most compensation.
I wonder how many Doctors and Surgeons would start mopping floors and emptying bed pans. Would there be a fight among former CEO's and Board of director members to go out and start stringing cable in a storm or flipping burgers?
Boy it just has got to make you wonder.
When their homes face foreclosure, vehicles face repossession, their kids can't afford to go to college and medical bills pile up because they can't afford health insurance, then yes, I believe they would go to those other jobs, as would any sane person.
Who would want to spend the time and money to go to school to earn less than those working for them?
Square-Peg-Round-Hole. I mean Misfit ( so appropriate by the way ).
All work that is being done today ( by the masses ) is essential work. Work that produces wealth while it supports and serves the community/society/nation/world.
Problem is that those in the position to ( at the top ) have been siphoning off all of the cream and reducing the amount those below them receive.
Dr.'s are gonna start feeling this too as things progress and those at the top have squeezed all that they can out of the bottom. This will go through every top level employment below that of those in control as the bottom is bled dry they will move on up the ladder in their squeezing.
There are not enough positions to plan to qualify for at the "very" top even if everyone wanted to.
OH - BTW if everyone tried and made it? Then what? Who is working to produce or care. Sounds like a huge Dead End ( R.I.P. ).
Your thinking is very flawed.
I do not disagree that there is a problem, but simplistic ideas like the one posted here is certainly not the solution. Incentive drives innovation, that is not flawed, that is fact. Whether the incentive is monetary or to improve mankind doesn't matter, it is incentive none the less. If you are to make everyone equal with no chance for incentive, then innovation dies.
Try dealing with reality. There will always be more people at the bottom of an economic system then at the top. That does not mean that those at the bottom are not needed it is a fact that they are the MOST ESSENTIAL to keep a society running. And they have been consistently handed the least.
Wake the Fuck up. Why is the economy so SCREWED???
Because a very major portion of the population has no money to spend.
WHY NOT ????????
It has been hoarded by those at the top.
Money cannot be "hoarded" as it is not a limited commodity. With today's fiat currency, there is always room to grow more wealth. The wealthy are not stopping you from going to school, doing well, earning a scholarship or getting a job and going to college that will lead to a better job later. It is an excuse and jealousy to blame all of your ills on those who have more than you. The economy is screwed because government interference led to poor business choices, rewarded excess risk and didn't allow the system to restart as it should while rewarding and propping up failing companies that ended up hurting smaller firms the most. The government is the alpha and the omega of our woes and everything between is a direct result of our government.
you dont think growing wealth by destroying the economy is the fault of wallstreet? like this for example? you are blaming the government for the actions of the stock brokers?
http://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=cong_test&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Denergy%2Bspeculation%2Blaw%2Bwill%2Blower%2Bprices%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBRE%26pq%3Denergy%2Bspeculation%2Blaw%2Bwill%2Blower%2Bprices%26sc%3D0-0%26sp%3D-1%26sk%3D#search=%22energy%20speculation%20law%20will%20lower%20prices%22
The government enables and encourages those shady practices by writing laws that favor them. Why is it that no one on Wall Street is being strung up for the financial crisis? Because they simply followed by the rules that the government put in place to help them to stay wealthy while donating (read buying off) to DC. The laws must be changed, but until DC changes, that will not happen.
and yet you advocate that people are going to take the incentive? and you expect that to change without widespread protest, blame, even violence to force those people to deny themselves that incentive?
walstreet commits and immense amount of fraud, despite laws to prevent it. just changing the laws will not stop that fact. but causing them PR trouble will. knowing that someone besides washington is watching ,, will. thats why its important to protest walstreer
Protesting the government? How would that help when both parties have 30% of the population each in their back pocket. Exposure and education would do more than violence ever could. Until we get DC out of the oligarchs hands and back into the peoples hands, nothing will change on Wall Street. We will still go to needless wars, torture prisoners and all of the other actions that run counter to what our nation stands for. People need to get over the left vs right divide and focus on what's best for America, not a political party of even for ones own self. If we do not get back to basics and return to our founding principles, we will fail.
like i said, how do you propose to force politicians to give up that worked for, educated for, well deserved incentive? you advocate that they deserve it because they went to the trouble of "earning" that privilege. how to u suggest you convince them that they cant have it? force them to to not accept the monetary benefits, when you say they did what successful people do and there fore deserve whatever monetary success they can get?
you do not think wide spread protest will expose and educate? do you imagine they are going to start broadcasting the failings of the 1%? do you suppose they will start indoctrinating the kids on the wrong done by the top authorities ? how do you expect this to happen?
I don't expect anything to change. I hold no hope for this nation. All DC has to do is pander a little more to those in need and they will forgive any politician of any wrong doing, so long as they can get that steady government check coming in. Soon, the majority of us will depend on the government for our daily lives and when that day comes, we will have lost our republic. "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." Ben Franklin
i see.. well then could you help the rest of us have a little fun while ship sinks and advocate for the OWS?
Hi wrongway peach fuzz!
You got it backwards, as so many do.
WallStreet paid to have those laws written. Just like they are.
What came first? The chicken or the egg?
True, but it is the government that can change the laws. Wall Street has no incentive to change their ways as they know Uncle Sam has their back. Until we have real representation in DC, rather than the current oligarchy, nothing will change for the better.
The tax code is the greatest oppressor of the people in the US as it rewards the rich and the business while it creates a dependency class among the rest of us. Wall Street can't change that, only DC can. Protesting Wall Street seems nice and all, but will ultimately accomplish nothing as they cannot (and wouldn't even if they could) change the laws that favor them in the first place.
There are no buts.
It's not about taxes, it's about corporate influence.
What came first? The chicken or the egg?
It doesn't matter what came first, and there are plenty of buts as the world (at least not people) is not based on absolutes. What matters is, who has the power to fix this mess and it isn't Wall Street. Wall Street can take, but they cannot write laws to reign in their bad habits. If you cannot see that fact, then please feel free to waste your time, but please stop posting as if you understand the problem.
Everything matters, Wrongway.
What came first? The chicken or the egg?
There is an accurate answer.
So please stop posting as if you know anything.
Again, insults, no answers and redirection. No wonder no one takes you guys seriously. You couldn't come up with your own thought even if you had to. Keep ignoring facts and living in your little fantasy world. maybe one day you will be mature enough to have an actual conversation with. Until then; good day.
What now your gonna try to advocate for hyper inflation?
Seek Help.........Or is Your Help trying to find where you got off to even now?
You don't dispute what I said, you just spout off emotional nonsense. Is that the OWS theme today? I shall stop wasting my time with you as you obviously have no idea as to how the world (or the economy) works. Good day.
Many people have wasted their time trying to talk "SENSE" with you.
But you apparently have absolutely no grounding in reality.
So............Bubye.
Is there a number people should call if your keepers show up looking for you?
I have seen your nonsensical, leftist utopian posts all over this forum. You are obviously the one with no grounding in reality. You have such a twisted sense of self righteousness that you cannot even see reality. It is kind of sad, but you are too naive to waste my time on any longer. Good day.
BuBye - don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
I said, "good day".
Still here? Did you get lost?
Fuck you.
That's my Girl. {:-])
Any time!
Such a charmer - your very sweet. Intelligent strong outspoken and sweet what a combo.
And a good day to you to sir (because no lady would use such language).
Hahahahahaha. [-] 1 points by GirlFriday (4220) 6 minutes ago Fuck you.
It is you that do not understand.
" Whether the incentive is monetary or to improve mankind doesn't matter,"
Equal pay does not mean work for free .. their is pay .. every hour earns an hour-coin .. this gives incentive to work more hours .. or perhaps it should be a reward for working more hours .. some people would be offended if you told them their only incentive is money .. As for improving mankind, the whole "equal pay hour-coin" is fueled by incentive to improve mankind !!!
Nothing's worse than somebody who fancies them self really smart and slick when in reality they are just a plain dumbass who was able to learn to read and write.
I don't wonder I know you are dumbass Leftist moron who parades around talkin shit and making moronic points and pseudo intellectual pabulum.
Jeez,you make a perfect spokes Fool for OWS,a great Rep for this jack ass movement of miscreants and ex-hippies that have an over blown ego and a complete disconnect with reality.
Party on dipshit.
Thanks for chiming in - AssHat.
What did you used to be before you were banned.
mahatmayasar
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Now there's something you should know a lot about an "AssHat" it fit's you just right. Don't worry about me,just take care of yourself and try not to make a fucking fool out of yourself so much.
What are you trying to play a game of rubber and glue?
Well I suppose you should stick with something you know.
Something that won't see your ass flying out the door immediately as you get booted again.
So flattered that you seem to have developed a crush - but seriously - your not my type.
Send me your address and if you ask really nice maybe I'll send you an autographed picture of something.
Run along now and tell all your friends - that should tie you up for about a second - then feel free to play in traffic.
[Removed]
Some people actually enjoy learning. Some people would rather spend their lives healing the sick as doctors than digging ditches as a mindless laborer. Some people who don't enjoy school may go through school anyway so they don't have to spend their life doing difficult physical labor.
Your simplistic assessment of incentives makes it hard to take you seriously.
Some, but do you think enough would to be able to maintain society as it is today. Do you think there are enough people who would willing work for this equal pay as a doctor or lawyer? There are exceptions to rule, of course, but the majority of people do not want to go to school and work hard for no reward. It is not simplistic at all, it is reality. Wake up and look outside the window. People do not work to excel simply to feel good. That is such a naive thought. I wish I could go back a few years and be that ignorant, as it is truly blissful, but I have faced reality for too long to believe that bleeding heart crap any longer.
If you add up all the difficult jobs - construction, medicine, science, engineering, mining and farming - it only adds up to 17% of the jobs we do.
So the question is whether 17% would be willing to. And I believe you can make a credible case that you can find 17% who will.
If we had that type of system, we would make it a priority to automate the most undesirable jobs.
I do think it would make it more difficult to run the economy if everyone was paid equally. So I do not advocate that we do that. But I do think we can make that kind of economy work. It is more realistic than people who have not studied the possibility think.
What exactly would motivate somebody to go hundreds of dollars in debt and spend a decade on training to be a neurosurgeon, if they would end up getting paid the same as a gas station attendant? Your answer seems to be to assert your blind faith that 'somebody' would do that. Why would anybody do that?
In a system where everyone was paid the same, students would get paid the same as workers. So the neurosurgeon would not have to go into debt at all or forgo nearly 10 years of income while they were in school.
People who are interested in medicine and science would rather get paid to learn neuroscience than to sweep floors even if they were getting paid the same.
"It is more realistic than people who have not studied the possibility think."
Thank you.
I totally disagree.
"Take that incentive away and we will have a nation of idiots digging ditches for your ignorant "hour-coin for an hours work" junk."
Where is the incentive for advancement? If everyone is paid the same, why work any harder than the person next to you? Why further your education if there is no reward? You may disagree, but you have no reason based in reality to do so.
Do you really believe everyone will want to dig ditches all their lives..?
Of course not, but I also believe that no one will want to be doctor, lawyer, nuclear physicist etc. if there is no financial incentive to do so. I could be a manager at Wendy's knowing that I make just as much as the the brain surgeon at the hospital down the road...oh wait, there wouldn't be any brain surgeons, because who would want to go to school for over a decade to earn the same thing as the manager at Wendy's earns? Hell, I could go work at Wendy's right out of high school, earn as much as the manager there while working for him. But would there be a Wendy's since there would be no one to run the business side of the company as there is no incentive to go to school to learn about running a business, and who would want to run a business when you only earn as much as the guy out of high school flipping burgers in the first place?
Flipping burgers is hard work. I'd much rather be a security guard. Just walk around all day...
It's at least an interesting thought experiment to ponder the idea of exactly which jobs would become the most-coveted. It would be the ones that provide for relative autonomy at work, like a security guard. It would be the ones with relatively few responsibilities or stress, like maybe a Wal-Mart greeter. It would be the ones that require the least amount of training.
Jobs that provide a sense of power might still be popular. Like cops, and maybe code inspectors. People like George Zimmerman volunteer for those jobs already. Jobs that provide intangible benefits like firefighters and teachers might also still be popular, as long as they don't require much training. So it would be preferable to be an EMT rather than a paramedic.
But nobody would want to be a CEO or a CTO or a COO. Way too much stress, and what would be the point without compensation for accepting all of that responsibility? I'm a CTO and I'm responsible for a lot of complexity and problems and training, and there is absolutely no way that I would want the job if I were getting paid the same as the people who work for me who don't have to get up in the middle of the night to deal with a crisis when something goes wrong.
I think the world would adjust. Guess we'd have to slow down a little bit, or get two CEOs each working 40 hours.
I'd still be going to college, but then again I like learning and doing interesting work...
I dunno if this is the solution we're looking for, but if it was shoved down our throats people would adapt and get used to it in time.
Cruise director. Master Lego builder. Book reviewer. Those are the jobs that I would go after if everybody were paid the same. You might go to college but why would you take on a job with a lot of responsibility and stress? Why would you want other people depending on you and your decisions? Trust me it sucks. It's probably cutting years off of my life. During a crisis at work on Thursday, I measured my blood pressure. 160/101. Why would anybody accept that kind of burden if they could get paid the same to write blogs articles about video games?
People do depend on my decisions, though I'm admittedly not in a top executive position.
I agree it would take a cultural shift, but it is entirely possible. Perhaps rather than having monstrous behemoth corporations we would have more small organizations. Perhaps there would be more position sharing (two people working 30 hrs a week each). Perhaps technology would solve the problem of low skilled jobs.
Perhaps people would learn to get by with a bit less and enjoy their free time a bit more, and the whole world would slow it down a notch. Like how some cultures have a siesta, but we get fired for sleeping at work.
Perhaps when everyone was making the same $$$, housing prices would crash and you could "get ahead" with the same amount of money.
Just throwin' some ideas out there. It would be a major change, but if that was reality, we would learn to deal with it pretty quickly. It just wouldn't be quite the same world, and maybe that isn't a bad thing.
Thank you for entertaining the positive side.
"and we will have a nation of idiots digging ditches "
You didn't respond to his point. In a system of equal pay for all work, there would be a race to the bottom, where most people would want to do the easiest work possible. People would be motivated to compete for easy jobs instead of high-paying jobs. Jobs that are difficult or require a lot of training and qualifications would become undesirable. Nobody would want to spend their time training to be surgeons or engineers if they could maximize their pay-to-effort ratio better by working as security guards or Wal-Mart greeters. Why would anybody want to perform difficult jobs?
Simplistic social-engineering proposals like this one and the guy talking about everybody getting paid $115k-$460k/year really do harm Occupy's credibility. Those proposals obviously come from people who envy high earners but who don't have the ability or motivation to become high earners in real life. So they fantasize about a utopia where everybody makes $460k/year without doing anything difficult. Meanwhile, in the real world, a lot of people think less of Occupy after reading those proposals, and after seeing people with no grasp of economics who ignore inconvenient realities like inflation in order to defend those fantasy proposals.
It's good for entertainment at least. But it doesn't serve Occupy at all to be a zoo full of crackpot proposals that are totally divorced from reality.
In a system where education is equally paid as work. I would predict many people would consider an education over being a janitor. A janitors life is not easy. the point being your conclusion for a race to the bottom is what we have now, with the lure of entrepreneurship and easy money many students are opting out of real education to elect a career with a little risk instead of hard work. Causing great national failure.
You bring this up every so often. People spend time punching holes in your approach. Then you come back with the basic comment once more. I will ask you this, how can all work have exactly the same value? It is just too simplistic. I get what you wish, but you have yet to convince me of how this approach can even possibly work.
"I will ask you this, how can all work have exactly the same value?"
If there are a hundred people working ten hours every day .. why should one person be paid less than the others ? They have all worked an equal amount of time. Fairness is a principle not many can comprehend.
If those 100 people all did the same type of work, then it would be fair to pay them the same amount. However, society has many different levels of skill sets. The investment in time, education and capital among other things will determine the value of one's services to a job. I had no problem being paid a lower wage when I was a dishwasher or laborer at the local farms. I knew that I would need to work hard and learn as much as I could to change my value, so that I could earn more money in the same allotted time. What I do now provides more value to customers per hour than what I did in my duties in the above jobs.
By the way, passive aggressive comments about the ability to comprehend your logic. Signs of a very closed mind. I am willing to listen, but all you did was state the 100 people worked 10 hours and then answered my question with a question. How about an attempt at how this structure you propose will work economically.
Society has many different job requirements.
What if one hundred people were all equally trained in every job. Including washing dishes. And they rotated jobs. One day they were a doctor , the next day a janitor and so on. Should they receive different pay for each job? Or same pay for all jobs?
To make this easier , imagine these hundred people were on a space ship. All doing different tasks daily. Would it be fair to pay them all the same. Since they all had the same training. But doing different tasks.
IF and you mean IF everyone was trained in all jobs, then we would all be the same. Sure, pay everyone the same. This is not possible in our spaceship called Earth. Pick fifty professions ranging from high skill to low skill and no one would be any good at all of them.
Why not get back to real, attainable ideas. I suspect that the driving force in your thoughts are that low skilled people should be paid enough to live a peaceful life. (My guess about your thoughts and I could be wrong.) Why not focus on the living wage that everyone brings up. Even as an entrepreneur, I can figure costs in to account for that expense. Prices may rise, I may higher fewer workers, but at least the ones hired would be able to pay for the basics. You want to layout these absolutely fair practices without dealing with how they are actually paid for. Find the way that these things are paid for then your idea becomes attainable. I have not read anything of yours yet that shows this to be possible.
The ability to pay everyone equally without limit is a system which uses an hour- coin. This system is built on equal hourly pay for all work and education. The hour-coin will remove the tax collecting budget system. Butfor this post we are discussing " equal pay". You mention the unfair practice of entrepreneurship. Which is a method of back- riding and exploiting the fellow human being. How such an idea has ever evolved into practice defies all morality. Equal pay is principled on the reason of everyone is equal and an hour of time for you is equal to an hour of time for everyone else, without exception. With all training provided and equally paid , this becomes a system of total fairness.
On paper, your idea is a fair as anything could be. You never try and describe how this will actually work in the real world. Your description above does not deal with the reality of overhead etc. I get your hourly-coin idea. The rest of us call it a dollar. You seem to have this cut off of what is considered work and what is not. "Entrepreneur" the big evil word! Having created a business that at times has had employees, I guess I am one of the evil ones. I have downsized to just myself in the current economy. The thought that I sit on my butt and do nothing while my minions create all the wealth that I hoard is a pretty good joke. You want detail, then give me better details. I do find your view interesting.
In the real world.
The unlimited hour-coin would provide education and jobs for everyone. Let's stop here and consider this.
Unlimited amount of hour-coins for every willingly hour of labor and education. How does this compare to today's reality? We have unemployment. We have smart students from poor families that do not continue with education. We have mediocre students from wealthy families that pursue degrees and positions of authority. We have a debt budget system limiting the growth of mankind and evolution. All of this changes with the unlimited hour-coin. Plus much more. Imagine a reality where worry is replaced with content.
Mankind has reached a point where no longer can we look the other way to the unfairness and inequalities. We have simply become to educated to be bullied around by greedy tyrants.
The hour-coin creates a peaceful civilization for all mankind
This hour-coin must be paid for in some way. Just like a regular dollar needs to be paid for in some manner. Do you have a business model that describes how this hour-coin represents the final expenses of any given venture. You speak of these euphoria's without backing it with substance. I get it. In your eyes, the world will be this utopia if all people worked exactly the same and got paid exactly the same. Now make it real. Describe it in a business plan.
The hour-coin is a credit for all human effort-
All education and labor will be credited an hour-coin equally. There is no limit to this credit. This unleashes mans full potential.
A working model:
One hundred people work one hour. Total hour-coins credited = 100.
Total production of these one hundred People = 100 sandwiches.
Now, 100 hour-coins divided by 100 sandwiches, each sandwich will be priced at 1 hour-coin per sandwich.
If 100 people in the same example would only produce fifty sandwiches, than WAC sandwich would be priced at 2 hour-coins per sandwich.
Efficient hard work would produce more sandwiches , thus lowering the cost per sandwich in ratio to the same amount of time worked. Efficiency plays a roll in hour-coin value. This is simple logic.
When the hour-coin/ credit is spent to purchase the sandwich, the coin becomes " nullified" it no longer has value.
This works in a collective system and creates an unlimited amount of hour-coins to be printed.
I just shared with you the most basic example of how an hour-coin is created. The benefits are enormous. With an unlimited amount of hour-coins, compared to a budgeted tax collecting dollar system, the hour-coin opens up a new reality in the world of economics and evolution of mankind. We are no longer inhibited by a budget system.
Of course this creates many questions. Priorities: what will we do with our labor resources? How will we create efficiency? How will we determine the value of natural resources?
One thing for certain, with an hour-coin system our labor force will be completely available for any and all course of development.
The equality of equal hourly Pay for everyone is the contentious issue. Many feel with the amount of time spent on education some positions should be paid more, but with an hour-coin system all education is paid for with the samehour-coin. Where jobs are more difficult , either mentally or physically we will simply apply more people to elevate the burden. Education will be evaluated and expanded upon by those proven capable. Careers will be fulfilled based on interest, ability, and availability.
The hour-coin does not perform miracles/ utopia, but in practice the hour-coin should create a peaceful working/living environment , with great potential for human development.
Any further questions !
Will all production be owned by the gov't/people? Will there be private ownership of any businesses?
We have private ownershp of business's now, and we have poverty, unemployment , and war.
The hour-coin system functions within a collective society. The hour-coin removes war, removes poverty, and creates unlimited opportunity.
Is there something you feel private business can do that a collective of " we the people" can not ?
I take it from your flanking answer that there will not be private ownership. Why I asked was to assess if people would follow your model in a society that still allowed for private ownership. My belief is that they would not, because no one would want to put up the capital and additional time investment on a venture where they are only allowed to receive the same payment as anyone else that worked for the created business. No real reward.
What I believe you have described is a euphoric version of communism. Sorry, I just do not want to go in that direction.
Your correlation that poverty, unemployment and war would somehow not exist if everyone got paid equally for whatever they can offer as work just does not fit. There are many reasons for those negatives that have nothing to do with private ownership of property. Respectfully, I prefer a system that allows me to benefit from the hard work that I put into it and gives me and my family the ability to change our caste in society.
I do appreciate the time you took to explain your idea.
Some people are more talented and better at their jobs than others.
A proper fit is very important.
Hour coins posted again? Really? Same old nonsense that you continually post here. You ran away when I questioned you the last time about details on the working of this system. So why are you back with the same post?
You keep calling it nonsense than you expect a polite response. How is that working for you ? Do people generally respond to your insults.
When I tried to discuss this proposal with you previously, you ran away when I questioned the details. I was not insulting in my questions but you became rude when I ask for clarity and detail. So who was really insulting? You now regurgitate this proposal again ( and again and again). It continually gets refuted. So maybe you should try to re-think your proposal, maybe refine or detail it, and turn it into something that could actually be a real workable theory. I have no problems discussing theorectical proposals, but my background is to challenge ideas to test them, find the problems and fix them, before they are implemented, not afterwards. Anyone who was a member of my project teams recognized this process and they chose to learn from it, and I learned from them when they presented alternative solutions.
This proposal has never been properly understood let alone refuted. Case in point. You call it nonsense and yet you do not know the details? Explain that? Do you always draw conclusions without first knowing the facts? What kind of project would that accomplish? I try to sense the tone of a message for friend or foe. You are certainly not friend. I owe you no respect.
In previous forum discussions I tried to get details from you. I called it nonsense because you continually repost this without any modification based on the comments and questions. When I asked you (a month or two ago) to explain details based on the questions I asked, you could not explain. You just repeated the same. I tried to go through a scenario of a business process, and you could not explain a working model without just repeating the same hour coin / unlimited budget, etc. I did not draw conclusions in the beginning of that conversation, but was challenging you to convince me that it would work. If you could do that I would be on board and promote the concept. This is not about friend or foe, but two people with different viewpoints trying to understand a proposed system. When I implement something, I want always want to know as many of the "if this, then that" parts as possible. I do not want to implement something that is too unknown. Your concept is so different, it needs to be vetted completely, I am sure you can understand that. Now, in the interest of resuming conversation, I will apologize here first if I was insulting. But understand, people will want details when they ask questions and if you desire a proposed concept to be accepted, you will need to have the answers for those details ready, and presented in a comprehensive manner that all will understand. And you should be ready to alter the concept in order to improve or make it workable.
Pleas have a look at a disussion a few comments up. I briefly provide a basic working example along along with a dozen or so clues about the hour- coin system.
The hour-coin covers a complex range of logic and fairness. It is designed to provide a better outcome than the one we have. In both social and economical development. I am willing to explore all possibilities and assiduous. Just keep in mind it functions like a watch with many pieces. And all pieces working together.
There are areas in the total design that will depend solely on community decisions, priorities, efficiency, and overall willingness of mankind. I have no control, and want no control , as to the outcome. That is up to the people. The plan is solid and gives freedom and opportunity to everyone.
Looking forward to discussing this with you.
I will attempt to go back and re-read, but sometimes it is not easy to follow the way these threads are built. So it might be a little while as I am busy this weekend. But at least we reset the conversation back to zero, thanks for your reply. I am sure we will disagree about some things, but maybe we can find something common and go from there. I understand what you are trying to achieve, and I am sure most of us would like to get to some point of fairness in the world, but just not sure if actually possible in the manner you propose. Maybe we can get to the "end of the beginning".
Try this:
[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1531) 1 day ago The hour-coin is a credit for all human effort- All education and labor will be credited an hour-coin equally. There is no limit to this credit. This unleashes mans full potential. A working model: One hundred people work one hour. Total hour-coins credited = 100. Total production of these one hundred People = 100 sandwiches. Now, 100 hour-coins divided by 100 sandwiches, each sandwich will be priced at 1 hour-coin per sandwich. If 100 people in the same example would only produce fifty sandwiches, than WAC sandwich would be priced at 2 hour-coins per sandwich. Efficient hard work would produce more sandwiches , thus lowering the cost per sandwich in ratio to the same amount of time worked. Efficiency plays a roll in hour-coin value. This is simple logic. When the hour-coin/ credit is spent to purchase the sandwich, the coin becomes " nullified" it no longer has value. This works in a collective system and creates an unlimited amount of hour-coins to be printed. I just shared with you the most basic example of how an hour-coin is created. The benefits are enormous. With an unlimited amount of hour-coins, compared to a budgeted tax collecting dollar system, the hour-coin opens up a new reality in the world of economics and evolution of mankind. We are no longer inhibited by a budget system. Of course this creates many questions. Priorities: what will we do with our labor resources? How will we create efficiency? How will we determine the value of natural resources? One thing for certain, with an hour-coin system our labor force will be completely available for any and all course of development. The equality of equal hourly Pay for everyone is the contentious issue. Many feel with the amount of time spent on education some positions should be paid more, but with an hour-coin system all education is paid for with the samehour-coin. Where jobs are more difficult , either mentally or physically we will simply apply more people to elevate the burden. Education will be evaluated and expanded upon by those proven capable. Careers will be fulfilled based on interest, ability, and availability. The hour-coin does not perform miracles/ utopia, but in practice the hour-coin should create a peaceful working/living environment , with great potential for human development.
So the heart surgeon should be payed the same as the valet parker. That makes sense.
The heart surgeon was paid from the day he started training and studying .. every minute of his education he was trained for and paid.. the heart surgeon maybe once was a valet intendent and decided he wanted something more .. satisfying / interesting.. wanted to help in other ways .. just like so many others would follow their interests .. and just think what ever interest you pursue .. you will be paid for all the training required .. pretty fantastic world !!!
He had to pay the medical schools for his training so I am not what sure what you are saying.
I understand your argument. This is why with an hour- coin system, the doctor would be paid an hour- coin for every hour of schooling.
You dont have a high school education. I see that now. "Valet intendent"? Whats that?
I know what a valet attendant is.
Sad.
Thanks for the keenful spelling correction.. it's too bad you don't understand logic ?
who owns the property
great! sign me up - I can loaf while you do the work & we get the same coin. excellent & well proven to work.
Well , right now it is the 1% that loaf and get the coin.. BIG coin.. you would not get big coin .. just everday coin same as everyone else .. Yes there will be lazy loafers .. I am sure society will find a way to deal with them ?
so everyone earning over 367K is a loafer? because that's where the 1% starts. Give me a break - you are not serious.
And you think everyone below 1% is not working hard. When do you want your break, before or after your free- ride?
Yes i do. lots of low wage loafers.
people don't work as hard when there is no incentive to do so - basic human instincts proven over & over again throughout history. Come on - are you going to deny this? Really!
It depends on the culture.
really? what culture puts in an equal effort with or without incentives?
At equal pay the incentive is equal for everyone.
hahaha! the incentive is to slack off - nothing proves this better than every day life - are you kidding?
This is where many are lost in logic. A system of equal pay where individuals benefit from collective effort. If everyone "slacks off " this will cause price inflation due to lack of product. But if everyone works hard and efficient, this will create a deflation in prices due to an abundance of product. With this the incentive will be for everyone to work hard/efficient. And be highly productive. All at equal pay with an unlimited monetary system for education and labor. I predict the human race will find/ maintain a regular pace that will " pulsate. Equal pay is a system that will provide education and jobs for everyone. Is that not an attractive goal?
completely false. If you cant see that you are totally lost. No one argues that point anymore are you kidding?
Not so. In today's market abundance is bad. But in a system of equal pay it is just the opposite. Abundance will increase the value of your labor. It is the incentive of hard efficiency.
Unfortunately you have zero historical evidence to back up your claim that communism results in prosperity.
Yes, he's put lots and lots of energy into denying that people would want to maximize their pay/work ratio. Which, if you can't get paid more, would mean that you should work less.
In a collective equal pay society , the greater the production the lower the prices. This gives the pay: work ratio incentive. Working hard will lower prices. Although this is advanced understanding and requires the student to think beyond what they are taught. Many can not take this a step on their own. They need guidance all the way. Like a child being pushed around on a bicycle by the father. The child is to small to go on it's own.
exactly - it's human nature and a matter of efficiency - people don't work any harder than they have to or want to. Some people are happy with less & some people are happy with more. Some people are never satisfied & some people just give up. We are all individuals with individual desires of how we want to live OUR lives.
But some people don't have the confidence in themselves to think and act independently, so instead of taking individual responsibility, they seek safety among the collective. These proposals for equal pay for all are like collective bargaining, which is what people turn to when they can't bargain for themselves.
agree 100% - mob mentallity.