Forum Post: Encourage conservatives to join up! Go talk to your local Tea Party
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 12:17 a.m. EST by imrational
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The media are potraying this as a liberal response to the Tea Party. We are being demonized by the right wing media and people who don't know better come here to troll. We have people like Michael Moore, Al Sharpton, Nancy Pelosi and unions trying to glom on and garner attention to themselves.
We need conservatives as much as we do liberals. We need to get some known conservatives to endorse the movement like the libs have or we will be marginalized!
This isn't about the right or the left. It's about all 99% of us.
For the record, I've identified myself as a Republican for nearly my entire life. In the last 2-3 years, my eyes have been opened about the corruption that exists in all parties, including the GOP. I supported the original Tea Party movement and I'm 100% behind OWS.
I'm in the same boat. I broke party lines twice. JFK and O'Mama. Now I will continue to change my vote until someone supports the 99%.
Used to be a right-winger myself. I understand them.
OWS might like some of the, well, stubbornness of these people when it comes to getting the oligarchy out of our lives. They don't like it either.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-radical-moderate-party/
I've been after the tea party to discuss Article V of the Constitution. Their perceptions of it are created on misinformation. So, your idea is real good. Be advised that Mark Meckler, a constitutionalist scholar with the tea party, met with Lawrence Lessig at Harvard on September 25 at a conference on Article V, and Meckler agreed that an Article V convention was the only way to deal with the situation. Occupy Wall Street, Occupy DC AND the tea party ALL NEED to understand article V. So, any who understand this post, do as the OP says, but learn about article V and talk to the tea partiers about it. Heres some facts. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
I watched the video, and it's true that Congress has blatantly been flying in the face of the Constitution. I also agree with the idea that our electoral process has been corrupted.
However, my concern is that liberals/progressives do not have any respect for the Constitution in general, and that many of them regard it as a 'living document'. Many comments and threads on this site reflect that sentiment. Some view it as obsolete and even illegitimate since it was written by a bunch of 'slave-owning dead white guys'.
How does this make an Article V problematic? Also, I used to be a member of the original Tea Party, like some others here. However they lost my support entirely when I raised hell about the Patriot Act, and so many of the new Tea Party members of Congress voted to reinstate it. Including Michelle Bachmann.
I think most people would agree that the Tea Party was long ago co-opted by the Republican establishment politicians who are in violation of Article V. This is why I think you won't get anywhere trying to convince them of something like this. Well, the leadership anyhow. The individual Tea Party members, maybe.
I went to the Tea Party Patriots website last night out of curiosity, because they had sent me an article slamming OWS. The article was full of distortions, unsubstantiated opinion, and misinformation https://www.teapartypatriots.org/Default.aspx Maybe I just couldn't figure it out, but I couldn't create my own thread on their website, and apparently I couldn't comment on the article to say how misguided it was. They don't want to hear it anymore than the liberals want to return the nation to our Constitution. Call me cynical. What do we do about these issues?
Good work mgiddin1! You are doing the right thing by scoping out the tea party and bringing your impressions. This exactly the kind of first hand experience that causes people to re adjust their perceptions. mgiddin1 wrote: However, my concern is that liberals/progressives do not have any respect for the Constitution in general, and that many of them regard it as a 'living document'. END I've seen and heard this before. Generally I find it a surficial attitude that they use to avoid any reason to support politics of any kind. When pressed, and generally this has to be done gently, they will admit that they know the constitution has stood between them and tyranny, but need a social presence to attach to in order to get involved with support. The social presence they see is not actually dealing with the natural law aspects that are inspiring and more into special interest actions serving candidates etc. A controlled movement. The term "living document" perhaps has multiple definitions. The one I use only works with people that are aware of the natural law aspects and can draw on their own life experience to justify positions of amendment. mgiddin1 wrote: This is why I think you won't get anywhere trying to convince them of something like this. Well, the leadership anyhow. The individual Tea Party members, maybe. END Yes, that is my impression. From what you say about their site, the leadership is afraid of exposing members to facts while they have a pretense of constitutional commitment, because with that commitment, any facts and logic that justify a change of mind and action will probably be heeded by members, just as you say. Leadership is afraid of that. If they are putting down OWS, then I think it's pretty clear that at some level, there is a scheme to make extremes that burn out the public. Of the 2, I would say OWS has far less and members are free within the social structure to believe as they may. I too have found political forums that behave just as you found. It looks like you can post, you can register, confirm, but never post, and the members there do not seem to know that no new people can post.
Thank you for posting the Article V information. I consume news voraciously, and I consider myself a libertarian, but I was unaware of it.
The only worry I have with such a move, is that if we are successful and there is a constitutional convention... that it will be usurped and we'll end up with a worse situation. Don't think that can't happen.
No, won't happen. To make absolutely sure, we need to be sure that speech vital to survival can be heard. Free speech is not enough. At the time of the writing of the Declaration of Independence there was a lot of competition for what would be included. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" was actually part of a much larger philosophical doctrine. I've learned that and if we revise the First Amendment by integrating the entire doctrine, we can assure the reformed election systems created through the same convention have the most possibly informed voters. This means people that have good info, well substantiated, can get access to national network broadcast with network funding mandatory in order to make slick productions that keep viewers interested, http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html
Don't be too sure of that. Look at Colombia's Constitution. It was written by drug lords and their country's rich fatcats.
Look at all the legislation written in our country by corporate lobbyists. If they could usurp our democracy once, they could do so again.
Conversly we cannot be sure American citzens think like Columbian drug lords. Please read this. http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html It actually is very logical and constitutional. Columbia knows nothing of it, and if they did, their constitution would read differently. Also, without Americas drug habit, which was actually created by the infiltrators starting in Vietnam, see Richard Armitage, smuggling heroin in soldiers corpses, then appointed to Secretary of State by gwb in 2000. Also documented by Michael Rupert IN Los Angeles in the 1980's. If the citizens are re educated, no infiltration can be successfull again. We will need to assure that speech conveys info vital to survival in order for the constitution to survive this infiltration.
page wouldn't load for me. Can you give me the synopsis?
Here's the main text of the page. http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html The "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech" is from an understanding that can come from the practice of free speech. From the understanding can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It predates the Declaration of Independence which plagiarized part of it, then the framers of the constitution later eviscerated the title for the first amendments, "Free Speech".
This can be explained by the competitive nature of different factions in that society trying to see their perspectives integrated into the new Declaration of Independence.
Logically if the Declaration of Independence grants life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it also implies respect for that certain speech which evokes the greater meanings needed by people manifesting such principles in their living, whereupon life is protected, liberty is secured, and happiness more likely. The "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech" simply says we recognize that we will not devalue speech by not failing in our common recognition of the different values of speech, their related importance to our purposes, defined hopefully; and generalizing speech as all being equal, when it is clearly not will end. When it comes to the freedom to speak, this is not an issue, when it comes to which speech is justifiably commonly supported and empowered, such distinction is an issue. America needs to (and does, public access tv) be able to define which speech is empowered by the public. Not access only, but production as well. The "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech" provides the traditional values as description of human psychological attributes, encouraging an inherently functional structure of human mental and spiritual performance, or capacities that represent civilized, peaceful people cooperating in living.
Sign up for what? How can you go to a conservative and ask him to support.... nothing? How can you ask somebody to support your position on issues if you don't know what issues you care about and you don't know what your positions on them are?
The positions are things everyone can agree on, like ENDING CORRUPTION.
For example, do you support the recent Supreme Court ruling that allows corporations to donate unlimited funds to political campaigns? How about the one that allows the government to take private property from citizens via Eminent Domain and hand it over to corporations?
DON'T let this movement end up being a "liberal/conservative" movement
If it becomes AT ALL Partisan it loses ALL its power and just becomes a weapon for one of the two corrupt establishment parties to wield against the 99%
At the core, it sounds like both sides merely want a return to government doing what is specified in the constitution. It would be the logical conclusion that they team up and work together.
I just wish more people thought logically. :'(
Conservatives are actively working to disenfranchise liberals right now, and they're succeeding, because liberals tend to not be very interested in participating in the democratic process. Don't pretend that they're on your side. They're working to silence your voice and they're succeeding.
TechJunkie, I'm a Conservative. Instead of using terms that could incite dissension, how about being a little more accurate and say, officials in the Republican Party are working to disenfranchise Democrats.
Most of us know that both political parties are corrupt and your link (how did you post those links btw?) helps illustrate that. However, by labeling corrupt party officials as Conservatives, you insult brethren here.
I'm a Republican, and you can use whatever term you like as long as you participate in the democratic process.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-radical-moderate-party/
Just like Republicans tried to take ownership of the Tea Party, Democrats are attempting to do the same with OWS. It sucks.
Both causes are united in their desire to rid the political process of corporate money. There is common ground.
I'm a registered democrat who voted for Nader and I agree with you and share your concerns. I'm not sure what to do though.
It looks like Occupy Wallstreet has already accepted Union and Moveon endorsements. My local group is a dedicated young bunch, (bless their little dread-locked, anarchist hearts), but nothing gets done with their 100% consensus policy and I can't envision many people coming out to stand on the campus lawn in the cold while everybody agrees on everything.
You can't have an online discussion with them either unless you are wiling to log in to facebook, and consent to its 'invasion of privacy' policies.
Maybe we need to go around them?
I don't have a facebook account either and I hate that I can no longer comment on many online news articles because that's now the only option if you want to leave one a lot of the time.
There's always Skype and other sites. Hopefully we'll have a dedicated message board(s) in the near future too.
I don't mind getting the Union and Move-On endorsements PROVIDED we get some conservative ones as well.
With all my heart I want my conservative countrymen to join us. They were after all the first to call out that our government was broken. But I was saddened that the old hate based right wing social agenda took root in what I hoped was an economic 99% kind of message. I hope that this doesnt in like fashion become a left wing focused movement. Its about the corruption of our Democracy. We can all get behind fixing the system which has made us the greatest example todate of a society where no mans "vote" is worth more than anothers. We need to outlaw bribery of our public officials. Doesn't matter if its a pharmaceutical or a union. Well, its at least a starting place.
If the movement becomes too liberal and fails...
Hopefully it will mean that with the Tea Party taking the extreme right, and the OWS taking the extreme left... the middleground moderates will form a third group that will have an even better shot at reform.
I agree. I'm a Ron Paul libertarian tea partier. I detest the republican party and the democrat party. Don't let the democrats absorb you like the GOP tries to do the Tea Party.
I'm also a Left leaning libertarian Ron Paulista. Agreed, don't let the democrats absorb you either. I see other, mainly fiscal, conservatives who sympathize greatly with the movement as well.
Thanks for being here! Please, be more vocal!!!!! I've heard too many naysayers crying about how 'socialist' this movement is or how we're all just hippies looking for a hand out. Nothing could be further from the truth!
After working on the Ron Paul campaign I know how much bologna there is in the media. They don't do any research. They just say what they want to say about you regardless of any facts or the truth
The lines between entertainment and journalism have blurred to the point that the two are hard to distinguish. Unfortunately there isn't really a solution to this problem anymore than there is a solution to things like greed or ignorance. We can fight it personally and we can inform others, but we'll never eradicate it as it is part of being human.
Yes corruption coming with power is human nature like everything else we do to avoid pain and seek pleasure. However, if we can associate more pain with corruption, like prison sentences and fines, then there is much less incentive to be corrupt. Then the American people can be represented rather than governed.
No, I agree entirely.
Furthermore, while we can't change things like greed and corruption in other people, we can seek to eradicate it in ourselves and work positively against it in our day to day interactions with those around us.
I think you're going to find a good number of fiscal conservatives in the crowd. I happen to be one of em. And no, despite the fact that there are a lot of socialists, there's also a lot of everyone else too. But you know how the media works.
That I do. We've been getting some more honest press lately, but nothing's going to stop to political commentors from continuing to misunderstand intentionally. You can hardly blame them. Right now they tell everyone how it is and what 'all' the options are. In OWS they're just another citizen like the rest of us.
Im sorry but conservatives have created alot of misery in this country so what exactly can they bring to the table??
mantaseed, imagine if this Movement only embraced the liberal side. About half this country is conservative. On top of that, many liberals wouldn't even embrace some of the wilder notions given here. The more people you exclude, the more slanted the Movement becomes and the more people you will push away. Very quickly, you will not have the numbers to achieve ANY change and you will fail.
If you want real change, you need to incorporate the diversity found in America. If 99% of the population agrees with your goals, those goals will be embraced and change will happen. Let's work towards the goals we can definitely achieve before embracing things that half the population would fight you over, okay?
Every human is born libertarian. Respectful humans occupy their time enjoying liberty. Dangerous humans seek to occupy other humans with politics like Marxism or Fundamentalism.
I love Elizabeth Warren and Brooksley Born.
Michael Moore is the epitome of a troll.
I'm a conservative, but I appreciate the fact that at least he gets people talking about issues that otherwise wouldn't be brought into the mainstream. He's kinda the Fox News of the Left.
I find him insulting to the left! He makes himself look really dumb when he states that the Fed is not the problem, capitalism is the problem, and yet he made millions because of capitalism off his documentaries.
That's hypocrisy to the nth degree.
There's a lot of dumb people on both the left and the right. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but at least he is able to get dialogue going on issues we should have been debating for a long time in the mainstream.
Rediclous and insulting FOX news is pure lies.
I agree. Get the word out, OWS is for all!
I agree that the laws have to change to protect the people and the nation from the "do as you damn well please" free market enterprise. You would think we learned a hard lesson of what not to do and make the correction to prevent it. Good Luck!
I believe there is a plan to break the 99% down to total dependence of the wealthy and political Class.......and this is a class War and it is Global.
I don't think it was a planned action. I think it was a slow accrual of changes that stemmed from greed. Each generation or so, they got greedy and changed things a little bit. They weren't punished, so the next generation, accustomed to their level of opulence, added another change and took in more money. As the speed of technology increased, so did the greed.
The reason I don't think it was necessarily planned is because we're starting to see things fall apart. Somalia was a prime indicator. The government fell and we were unable to help restore order. Somalian pirates are an example of a country that has fallen so far, they are better served attacking world trade than being a member of it. The benefits for turning rogue outweigh the risks.
The Peters G Peterson Foundation recently gave a presentation on the American deficits. Things are going to be getting a lot worse in the upcoming years. A lot worse.
I think everyone is a little scared, even the mega rich.
We are in an equilibration mode. The economies of the world have to adjust to an equal playing field. The USA is way out of line with the rest of the world economically and this is the adjustment to bring back the world markets to some sense of an even level of competitiveness. Otherwise the only other solution is War. This is a solution that the 1% is still negotiating the outcome.
This is the State of the Union........There are four Classes of people. The Welfare class, the Working class, the Political class, and the Wealthy. When you are concerned about who is in control and why things turn out the way they do, just remember you can always understand a lot if you just follow THE MONEY and how controls it.
We need a lot of well-made educational documentaries loaded with facts and lots of explanations.
Hey, SoCS... I'm up in Traverse City. My work schedule sucks, but we really should meet up at some point.
Yes, that sounds like a good Idea. I may be going up to Sutton Bay this weekend to see some friends........maybe we can connect then.
I've got Sat & Sun off for a change. I was thinking about either staying in TC and going to the Bioneers Conference http://www.bioneers.org/ (and possibly encouraging protesting to participants there). or driving down to Grand Rapids and supporting their occupation.
This weekend doesn't look like it will be good for me. To much going on with family and friends. Will be stopping in Lundington to see family and our friends in Sutton bay are here only once a year from Alaska. The Grand Rapids group need help in finding a place to occupy. I've been giving them some ideas getting private sympathizer that may have property in the city that they may occupy. Good luck with your endeavors.
Thanks. Looks like TC is having one on Saturday, so I'll be attending that.
Serious suggestion: go out to the groups in your area and make your voice heard.
Otherwise, the noise will overpower and soon it will be what you fear.
I agree imrational. This must happen, or the goals of the movement will not be realized. This about the most centrist, and I think the most honest candidate for POTUS in 2012 - Ron Paul - he's reaching out to left, right and center like no one else is. He truly is attempting to represent 'the 99'. And best of all, he's for going after the root of the problem - END THE FED, as the source of money creation and control and power of the 1%.
Agreed. I'm also a life long libertarian, well more a fiscal conservative, social liberal. Left leaning libertarian? I'm in, so long as OWS doesn't get co-opted like the Tea Party did.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/friendly-advice-from-someone-who-usually-disagrees/
yeah, I've been screaming that all day too
Is this Right wing infiltration??