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Forum Post: Does the theory of Anarchy really apply to the Occupy wall st movement ,

Posted 10 years ago on Dec. 29, 2011, 12:27 a.m. EST by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

In 2012 the OWS movement will have a chance to get some well deserved respect and less scrutiny from the media , so lets make the best of of it this is every one,s movement from the most radical Anarchist to the most mellow retired citizens all over the US , Create more local OWS locations in your city and your neighborhood , If we can all put our social views and ideologies together as one oh what a wonderful world it would be,

48 Comments

48 Comments


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[-] 3 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

If we can all put our social views and ideologies together as
one oh what a wonderful world it would be

IMHO

This is the OWS problem -
we try to think -
we try to march -
we try to demand -
we try to be poetic -
we try to be "together"

to quote Master Yoda "No! Try not. DO , or do not. There is no try."

"try" time is over! It is time to DO !

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

Like Mr. Do! Boy, I still really love that video game.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

yes we need out of the norm outside the box forum,s for this type of action i totally agree with the do part because we are not normal so we must be innovative in our future and find a viable way to combine our ideologies ,

[-] 2 points by BlueRose (1437) 10 years ago

The anarchists are cancer to the 99%.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 10 years ago

I have encountered some anarchists and I do not object to them having their philosophy.
The problem is to many people, their philosopy is nothing less than a religion - and all others must be obstructed.
The anti-other concept - Catholics burning Jews in 1492. Nazis killing homosexuals in the 1930's. Mao killing the Chinese intellectuals.
It is sad that so many movements try to grow by destroying others. I invite our anarchist brothers and sisters to follow their path -
but let us follow ours without interference and blocking .

[-] 0 points by choclo (11) from Rockville, MD 10 years ago

they did initiate the movement. there is an article in bloomberg business weekly about an anthropologist david graeber (not sure how his last name is spelled) and how he helped found the ny general assembly on his anarchist principles. all the general assemblies the direct democracy its all anarchy. I agree though, there leaderless party-less ideals make it impossible for the average american to know what the movement wants. they open the door to too many other extremes

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 10 years ago

I don't mind "leaderlessness", even if there were a group simply registering voters, it must be leaderless for many reasons, as people want to stop harmless activities with blanket injunctions and vilification of leaders. The problem with anarchy is it is a strategy tool of the 1%, not far removed from Libertarianism. The anarchy element will kill this movement, as we need stronger government in these modern corporatocratic times, not absent government.

[-] -2 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

that,s not a very fair assumption they are people just like you and me they don,t have to be violent they choose to be , maybe if they could see some real progress in the OWS movement they would calm down a bit , its kind of like if you had a group of problem child,s in your family and they acted out they only way they knew how , what would you do just throw them to the dogs and forget about them or would you try to help them , this is one of the big issues with OWS certain people think they have more of a right than others to be here , the anarchist have just as much right as anyone else to be here , and you want to call them cancer , you think you can just get rid of them like they were human garbage , you have a really distorted view of humanitarian principles , they have just as much or more right to be here than people with closed minded views and ideologies like you ,

[-] 1 points by choclo (11) from Rockville, MD 10 years ago

I agree but i believe they own the infrastructure of occupy. the ny general assembly was built by anarchists as well as the process of general assembles and direct democracy are all anarchic principles. I think it all sounds good on paper but when your talking about a country with 300 million people and most of whose families if not they themselves moved here for a fair shot at making it, anarchy or communism just don't seem plausible.

and for thefutureisnow

i think you might like this short doc i made on the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Bgqt1YYko

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 10 years ago

I agree. This movement is built on anarchist principles. I don't see how the results could be anything other than anarchy.

The anarchist principles, direct democracy, the non-hiearchical structure, makes it very difficult for moderate voices to break through. The supporters that believe that leadership, organization and a focused message are important.

I also see the issues between anarchy theory and practice. Even direct democracy with a few hundred people in a park is ridiculously ineffective. Even to try such a thing in a medium size city, with 1% support from the community would mean that thousands of people potentially would be twinkling fingers for voting?? It makes no sense.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

thanks very much for your time and effort i created this forum not so much for debate , but more for the people involved in OWS to find a common ground , one lady even said the anarchist are the cancer of OWS , and even though that made me extremely angry i was not rude in my reply to her even though that,s what she deserves , we are all in this together and in 2012 we have a chance to actually become even more widely accepted than we are now , that,s why all these asshole, s are trolling this site and other sites like it because they are afraid , wall st is afraid of us now they know our every move they have spies everywhere and this is the reason we need to unify everyone because even though some of our ideologies differ, we all have the same general objective in mind ,

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 10 years ago

I appreciate your trying to find common ground. I don't have any personal problem with anarchists (most of them, so far, anyway). But I don't agree with anarchy theory. I don't agree with Republicans either. The funny thing is most of my friends and family are Republican. I don't happen to have any anarchist friends though, but I wouldn't hold it against someone, anymore than I hold being Republican against anyone.

As far has how anarchy relates to this movement, I think the anarchy is holding this movement back. From being much bigger and better organized. Organization and leadership are important. Changes need to be made with and through government. It is a mistake if OWS ptb does not address this more moderate side of the protest.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

their are very organized anarchist everywhere they are not just gutter punks with leather and spiked hair they work for gov,t agencies they are lawyers com techs there are many anarchist in society , and that,s because the theory of anarchy is not just about violent actions to get things done , its more of a people,s gov,t and that,s why it gets, such propagandized press all the time , because the gov,t know, that if it catches on that they have have a big issue on their hands trying to keep their dictatorships rolling over the poor and the middle class , they will lose face in society they don,t care about people who commit violent actions in the name of anarchy they have plenty of riot cops and soldiers to deal with that , its when the people who actually have something to show for their ideologies and views that the man really want,s to silence ,

[-] 1 points by BlueRose (1437) 10 years ago

They are tools of the 1%, who don't want regulations.

[-] -1 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

well i guess we will have o give them an ultimatum then won,t we i have personally talked to idiot,s when i was in Portland Maine who talked about hitting cops with bricks and even a guy who told me some whacked out story about protest in the 60,s and said they would shoot cops , these are not the kinds of people we need in OWS , they are complete whacko,s but the younger anarchist kids may be reachable , we have had enough casualties and arrest,s an injuries i am tired of watching innocent protestor,s who follow the lead of these violent people into a group of riot cops to get their skulls cracked and maced and arrested, so its possible we could have people at the sites to curb this type of activity before it get,s out of hand , as least i am hoping we can ,

[-] 1 points by IslandActivist (191) from Keaau, HI 10 years ago

The minute OWS tried kicking people out of the 99% was the minute it submitted to its own destruction. We the people - not we the selected people. Shutting out new ideas is only bound to make history repeat itself.

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 10 years ago

One form of government needed to represent the populace is in place. I have a problem with the judicial branch being supreme, (and of course not voted for), but it's like the other branches, populated by the 1%. Choosing monarchs from the citizens didn't always solve ancient Rome's problems. How would general assemblies, or any other form of government avoid the deviants from gaining power. The monarchy of religions, with their leader's powers has been shown to be a lacking alternative. BTW, the right to assemble and protest is our only hope, although it's just a vehicle not a destination.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 years ago

Arm your Placards :

"If you want to know what it is all about"

"Watch Inside Job - Documentary"

It is the heart of our problems!

This is why we are here this is why you are needed.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/

Share, circulate, educate, inspire.

[-] 1 points by choclo (11) from Rockville, MD 10 years ago

I made a short documentary on the Occupy Keybridge March that asked the same question. Does Anarchy apply to this movement or is it hindering its progress. thefutureisnow i think you would enjoy this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Bgqt1YYko

[-] 1 points by Algee (182) 10 years ago

I never understood why some people called anarchy dangerous, is it not just not having any leaders? We already have leaders and the world is still dangerous. The problem I think is that today's leaders want to stay in power so they train people to discredit any idea that would take away or limit their power over the people. Direct democracy does not directly entail anarchy but in my opinion a direct democracy would not need any leaders, it would just need a vigilant people and supervisors.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

well said very positive input even though they have infiltrated this site it does not matter all that much now because even if people like me do not get a foundation to build on it will still happen , but i would like to see it happen sooner than later so i will continue to dedicate my time my effort to getting these ideas out into the right places to the right people , where ever and when ever i can ,

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[-] 0 points by Algee (182) 10 years ago

What is anarchy? Only when we can all agree to what it is can we formulate opinions of it. I say this because I am not so sure everbody understands all of what Anarchy is.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 10 years ago

A vertically integrated company that controls the supply chain with an iron fist would be the antitheses to anarchy. Many contractors wheeling and dealing would be synonymous with anarchy. Direct Democracy would be, and all of this is my opinion, anarchy. Whether that is good or bad, I'm not going to say because it could be better than what we have now.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

Just open a dictionary. Anarchy simply means without hierarchy, hence the OWS idea of no leaders.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 10 years ago

Every one agrees on what Anarchy is; no government.

What no one agrees on is if and how it would work.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

well there may be others who are more qualified than me to answer this question , but in short anarchy was originally a ideology based on Gov,t reform by using the most extreme legislative methods, to get more citizens involved in Gov,t decisions , but like i said there are people who are more qualified than me for a more clarifying answer ,

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[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

"If we can all put our social views and ideologies together as one oh what a wonderful world it would be"

This doesn't make sense. Many social views and ideologies are contrary to each other. How to you pull totalitarianism and the idea of making communal decisions through consensus together?

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 10 years ago

Because..... magic!!

[-] -1 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

yea its not just magic its fate destiny a space and time the earth has never seen before , and also the pole shift will bring about circumstances beyond the control of any NDAA , or paper bill they can think of , this is our age our planet we will survive,

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

So, you're saying we could build a system where a totalitarian would be pleased and where an anarchist who doesn't believe in leaders would also be pleased. This does seem like magic. Can you elaborate on exactly how these two very opposing views would be satisfied under one system?

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

i am just the innovative idea guy for the future bro i need some more intelligent life forms such as yourself to help out with the details , we have no leaders or social systems, we are who we are and we are all here for an epic reason man but one thing is for sure the current political system is unsatisfactory to many US citizens even those who are not involved in this movement , and we now have the attention of national and international leaders and citizens and others who have the means and way ,s to help us out we need to make the best of it but i will expound on this subject after i do a bit more research on the progress OWS is making and what direction its heading thanks for your reply thrash ,

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

No political system of governance is perfect and can please everybody. That being said, there could definitely be a much better system than the one currently being used in USA and its variations that exist in many other countries.

OWS has identified some clear problems which need to be solved, but I don't agree with their idea that a political revolution is needed and that the solution is to have general assemblies on each street corner. I believe the idea of the republic has a lot of worth and can be vastly improved with the experience we now have. To do this we need intellectuals, and these people are rare. By opening its arms to every clown in the street, OWS has simply drowned the intellectual discussion into a sea of illogical thought. This is a major problem that is hurting this much needed protest. We need a protest or a movement that somehow encourages the intellectuals to rise to the top and partake in real discussions about the real problems. Allowing everybody to have a voice makes people feel good, but the discussion becomes nothing more than mediocre at best. We need to shed our egos and let the intellectuals take the podium. Some people here are mechanics, primary school teachers, architects, or plumbers, yet they feel the need to talk about subjects they have no clue about like economics and politics. This doesn't help.

The single and simple step of removing money from politics would already make a big difference in helping curb corruption in government. Like church and state, market and politics should be separated.

There are a zillion additional law changes that could help the republic shine once more. OWS has identified the general problems, now we need intellectuals like lawyers, economists, etc... to pinpoint the exact law changes and reforms that would be necessary to provide a better more honest and healthier republic. We also need independent committees to oversee the government and make sure it remains in a properly functional state once it has been fixed.

A major problem with the idea of OWS is that it assumes the majority of people want to seriously get involved in politics by using direct democracy and attending general assemblies to attempt to come to decisions with consensus. Nothing could be further form the truth. The majority of people don't have the knowledge nor the time to partake in every political and economical decision that must be made for a country to run properly. What will happen (and has already started to happen), is that only a few people will continually go to the general assemblies, and they will essentially become representatives for the rest of us, only they will not have been voted in. It's preferable to have a vote for a representative.

The OWS plan for a revolution is all but dead. It won't happen. Continuing in this direction is an utter waste of time. OWS needs to seriously redefine itself. America is not Egypt. Is has different problems. It doesn't need a revolution.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 10 years ago

Revolution = change, but change =/= revolution.

[-] 1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 10 years ago

Change = any type of difference. The republic is in constant flux. Every time a new law is introduced, altered, or deleted change occurs. Every time a judge makes a decision in Superior Court change occurs. You don't always need a revolution to create a change that matters. This need is actually very rare.

It's also worth noting that change is not always for the better.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 10 years ago

Truth.

[-] -1 points by necropaulis (491) 10 years ago

So your saying you don't know what you're talking about?? People with ideas come up with the details. That's why it's called an idea, not regurgitating rhetoric. I don't know what "pole shift" your talking about. I hope you don't believe that dumb shit about N and S switching, 'cause that's just not going to happen. The nation of which you speak either has or is losing interest in what you are doing. If anything, a lot of them are annoyed by people blocking roads, yelling and screaming in the parks, and being harassed just for going to the bank.

One more thing, and no offense, because people seem to do this more often. There's this funny dot looking thing next to the question mark. It's called a period(no not that thing you pray your one night stand doesn't miss). Please use it. You sound like a rambling madman without it and it makes for an easier read.

[-] 1 points by RobPenn (116) 10 years ago

In his defense, that's not necessarily true. Ideas start as abstract and then become more concrete as they are developed, and it's pretty common knowledge in Organizational Communications and psychology that some people are really good at coming up with abstract ideas, some people are really good at working out details, and some people fall somewhere in between.

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

no that is not what i am saying why the hell would i say that , i am saying that this has to be a group decision this is not as much of a debate as it is an idea for the unification process of OWS , we are so divided right now that its quite ridiculous to even have a discussion forum sometimes, and if we let this movement become infested with spies and idiots it will become ineffective and most of our efforts will be in vain , so this is not a debate and i will not turn it into one , i am busy as hell net working all day and night for this movement ,

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 10 years ago

Understood. A lot of people also just throw out some open ended thought to get someone to fill in the dots for them and then claim the idea as their own. I retract my assumption.

You are right. There needs to be more solidarity. Not just here, or OWS, but countrywide. I'm not saying there are spies amongst you (I think spy is too far reaching for what these people do), but it is rife with idiots. They are the ones on the news breaking laws and busting shit up, just because they fly under your flag. Mainly the ones I outlined in my statement above. The ones who actually do good (and there are quite a few) don't get the national press(as usual).

[-] -2 points by necropaulis (491) 10 years ago

They can't put their ideas and views together. They all want different stuff. A lot of the OWSers are either anarchists (even though the bulk of them don't know what anarchy is, much less what kind of anarchy they want), commies(they tell you they aren't and then rebut with communist ideas), or just disillusioned children.

[-] -2 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

yes we need ti illuminate the real theory of anarchism which was not really violent at all it just had a lot of whacko,s through the years who attached that violence to it and now what we have are kids growing up with distorted views of what the anarchy ideology is really all about ,

[-] 2 points by RobPenn (116) 10 years ago

You do realize that you're using commas where you should be using apostrophes, right?

[-] 0 points by thefutureisnow (223) from Newark, NJ 10 years ago

yea i am not much of a great typist i had serious injury to my right hand and also have a damaged medial nerve so my apologies but i do what i can ,

[-] 0 points by necropaulis (491) 10 years ago

Yes, but what sort of anarchy are you after?? Social, mutualism, individualist?? People throw the word around, and how it would be so awesome without even understanding what they are talking about.