Forum Post: DJIA: Reagan +238%, Clinton +325%, Bush -22%, Obama +154% (3years)
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 27, 2012, 8:09 a.m. EST by factsrfun
(8342)
from Phoenix, AZ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Here’s the dates, numbers used, 01/23/1981 (940), 1/20/1989 (2235), 01/23/1993 (3257), 01/19/2001 (10587), 01/23/2009 (8281), 01/26/2012 (12735), no coment just wanted to introduce some facts.
Existential Blues
context is missing
Sometimes truth is best said simply.
It's not American Pie, but it's good, reminds me of Tom Lehrer.
http://www.last.fm/listen/artist/Tom%2BLehrer/similarartists
Do you guys think I should update this as the year goes on?
Yes
Thank you I was thinking no one cared, seems the trolls have nothing to say.
Often times a troll will not speak in the hopes that an issue will just fade away. It is when an issue shows to be picking-up interest and comments that they will decide to attack. Attacking makes them visible.
True, it's interesting to see who feels that it is needed to attack simple data and math.
That is why they are trying the silent vote down tactic now. It is less revealing of the character that they are playing at. The action is obvious in collapsed threads. Some get collapsed for good reason - Because the are from a shit spewer, others because they have interesting content. But if the post and the comments remain alive then they get more actively involved.
Exactly if they are unable to get people to ignore the truth, then they attempt to discredit the truth. For instance here we have data anyone can get from Yahoo, and some 4th grade math and they say I’m using "statistical manipulation" to deceive. They so fear any truth at all.
Belittling - put downs - discrediting attempts. All things that the corrupt will do or try to do to protect their status. Real hard facts are pure poison to them. So they would prefer it if they might just be overlooked. But they can't help but try to do something when good information is brought out into the light of day to be looked at - most especially on a forum promoting movement against corruption.
You are getting at what I am really hoping for here. I actually believe in the power of truth, so all I want to do is remind people of some simple stuff, so they don’t lose their way when people who stand to lose a lot of power, if truth is know, through up billboards to distract them, and to get them to pull off into tourist traps and become slaves to commerce, thus keeping them out of the free natural beauty that surrounds us.
This sounds like a metaphor, but it is not, I grew up in Gatlinburg.
This is the most important thing we can do "HERE" while also providing opportunities for direct action to take part in from right "HERE".
Shine the light on truth. Truth in actions and truth in values.
We move forward in education and the promotion of awareness.
Shine the light.
so true, the actions and pictures of the actions shared here are so important to everything
Thoughts and beliefs for a better world. Information and technology available now. Issues and concerns. We reach out - we find unity.
They won't argue against facts, but they will make a million contraception threads to try to bury this.
And whose web do they weave? Stick around; this is not my first rodeo.
Now that we're above 13,000 should I redo this?
[Removed]
[Removed]
You do love statistical manipulation, and also love to leave out the effects of recessions......nice propaganda
Went over some of your lies below, don't have time for all of them.
how are those energy prices, wheat prices, coffee prices, etc?
Thanks for reminding me there’s good money to made in commodities too.
Good morning, please show me did I get the wrong numbers did I do my math wrong, or did I just forget to include your excusses, the man with a thousand excusses is here.
nah...you leave out the effects of recessions, and the parties in, and changes in congressional control.......
you leave out the market factors which effect stock trades, and capital gains rates which also effect trading numbers
for example, under Clinton, during the first two years, when democrats held control of the congress the Dow was only up 6% from 3754 to 4003
then from 1995-2007 during republican control of congress it was up over 300% from 4003 to 12556
following Democrat assumption of congressional control in 2007 until 2011 it went from 12556 to 11787 a loss of 10%
then after the Republicans took over the House it rose to today's number of 12992 a 10% gain....
I know these numbers are hard for you to accept and you'll come up with some spin to deny them, but as you like to say "facts are facts"
the Dow was 3257 on 01/23/1993 when Clinton took office you say 3754 that's a near 15% error, you are lieing about your numbers too people should know you lie about everything it seems making the two year gain near 20%
ah, you are correct, that number was for December of that year...it seems the nyse link skipped January of 1993 for some reason
link: http://www.nyse.tv/dow-jones-industrial-average-history-djia.htm
It was 3310 at the close, on Jan 20, 1993....the day Clinton took office...... 3838 at the close, on Jan 03, 1995....when the Republicans took control of congress.... a 16% rise...to correct my original figures....
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=^DJI&a=00&b=20&c=1993&d=00&e=20&f=2001&g=m&z=66&y=66
it rose the same percentage amount in 9 months after the republicans took over congress as it had in the two years of Clinton/Democrats
and then rose another 20% the following 12 months....
the result is still the same, if not quite as stark in contrast........it still rose higher, more quickly, under Republican leadership in congress than it did under democrat leadership......
All I’m saying is that history shows that Democratic Presidents are good for the market, bottom line numbers don’t lie, as much as you would like them to.
You if you were to admit that my math is honest and my numbers correct it might be worth addressing some of your points, but since I know that you start off with lies. What's the point?
Again you lie by calling me a lair, if you admit your lies I would be happy to devastate your points, which would be easy to do in an honest conversation.
I am not disputing the numbers or the math...I am disputing the validity of using the numbers as you used them, it's a manipulation of the facts and not demonstrative of the actual rise and fall under the two parties....
So you use a Dow number that is wrong by 500 points (to your favor) then acuss me of malipulation for persenting simple 4th grade math using the most honest numbers available, that's pretty much all you guys got left, confuse people.
no, I made a simple mistake.......not a manipulation, which is corrected.....
And yet your accusation of "manipulation" still stands, in spite of your mistake I did not accuse you of manipulation, just lying which you continue to do in your own twisted way.
your's wasn't a "mistake".....it was purposeful mis-direction and manipulation
You mistake simple math with honest numbers, with malipulation, but you wouldn't know anything about that, being a lair and all.
hahaha...what are you? 13?
If I "manipulate" this good at 13 imagine what's to come?
You can't make up your mind am I a brilliant master manipulator or a simple fool.
It's hell on you guys when faced with truth, isn't it?
"master manipulator"???? I never said anything about you being a master at it, it is actually quite puerile and callow......
I can't decide if you're simply lying because the facts don't back up your assertions, or lying because you don't know the facts, or if you're simply stupid, and parroting something you read on Alternet, Thinkprogress, or Mother Jones......
It's probably some combination leaning towards the least effort and calories burned....
Again you lie by accusing me of being a lair, something you have NEVER proven, yet you seem to lie quite bit, sometimes by "accident".
so slammer = lair
yep I got it
I am the den or resting place of a wild animal, or: a secluded or hidden place?
Hmmm?, OK
:-/
and, withholding information, or cherry-picking and manipulating information to appear differently than it actually is, is lying......
So...yep, you are a "LIAR" don't you take spelling in your elementary school?
Man, you really are a master at being a liar, manipulater and an absolute creep. I don't know why FRF even bothers to respond to this BS?
Ok I'll pretend you want to be serious for just a minute, you and I both know that in 1993 a number of great American heroes sacrificed their seats in Congress to vote for an Omnibus Bill that cut growth in spending and raised income taxes on those making over $250,000 per year (it also had a small gas tax increase that everybody paid).
After that for the next 8 years President Clinton vetoed every effort by the Republican party to bust that plan.
Which they failed to do.
The plan which passed without a single Republican vote led to no increase in total Federal Debt for 15 months starting three months into Clinton’s last year.
While your at it tell me why the Iraq war lasted longer than WWII.
actually the Iraq war only lasted about 10 months from the invasion to the capture of Saddam Hussein, the occupation lasted much longer.....but the "war" was relatively over in a very short time.....I'm not sure if you understand history but we still have occupying forces in Germany, in and and on the Islands around Japan today...so perhaps your assessment is a little flawed, as usual...
That remains me back then the military didn't mind a banner saying "Mission Accomplished" while troops were fighting; now we can't have a parade?
I think some officers think they know better than the American people, that's always dangerous with a standing army, we definitely need to cut back there, right?
The most democratic standing army is an armed citizenry as in Switzerland.
and we got more guns,,,time to start laying off generals..
For a really democratic military force enlisted personnel should have collective bargaining rights.
yeah by "military" in this case I mean "generals" and some of them do seem to forget their oath from time to time
What oath? To protect the Constitution? Ultimately the problem is, that itself is a pretty reactionary document,
Yeah from other places I know you and I differ on the Constitution, I like it better than what "they" might replace it with, you seem to have more issues with it, best as I can tell,
What I'm saying here is that generals should support the civilian authority or resign. Our generals’ feel like it's OK to shoot their mouths off in disrespectful ways to reporters, and I think the other top brass should not stand for it.
I definitely support the Bill of Rights, but the fact is, that was added as an afterthought. Were it up to me and I were to draft a new one I'd put the Bill of Right up front, right after the Preamble, I'd also add the due process stuff from the 14th ammendment into a new bill of rights along with specifically deliniated rights for people of color, women, youth, etc.
Then, really the most important thing would be to dispense completely with the commerce clause. The problem with that is that nearly everything else hangs on it as is described in the Federalist, but more on that below. In place of the commerce clause I would insert a human rights clause as the theoretical and ethical basis for the document.
Then I'd get rid of bicameralism. It's really anti-democratic an frankly meant to be. The "founders," those slave holders and Boston bankers, lawyers and insurance men of whom you are so fond, were very open and up front about the anti-democratic and democratic aspects of the constitution and only begrudgingly supported the democratic aspects as a necessary sop to throw to the masses. All this is well documented by these very "founding fathers" in the Federalist, They make about the best possible case for their profoundly anti-democratic views. It's really hard not to buy into it. The most obvious anti-democratic aspects of bicameralism are the lack of proportional representation in the Senate and the long Senate terms, which distances Senators from their constituents. There's more, but I can't go into it here.
Then I'd completely dispense with an independent executive and have the executive chosen out of Congress by Congress, which is technically called a parliamentary system. Among other things it would completely get rid of grid lock.
Were I to reintroduce bicameralism the second house would be based in the work place with special provisions for the representation of the unemployed, retirees, the disabled, youth, etc. Were that the case then I'd have the executive chosen out of a joint session.
These are fun fantasies. To me the most important thing about them is not that they could ever really come to pass but that they help us to see the reality. The Constitution did not come down from Sinai with Moses. It is a human invention of particular human beings with particular class prejudices and particular class interests who constructed it at a particular moment in history to correspond to the interests of their class at that time. It is true that they tended unselfconsciously to see it as a universal document, which is not unusual for revolutionary classes in a revolutionary period and a revolutionary setting. In such circumstances the revolutionary class tends to see itself as representative of all humanity for all time.
But the point is, it is unlikely that the Constitution will last for ever and it is worthwhile thinking about how it might be replaced by something better or at least something that our class in our time believes is better rather than something worse.
I suspect that right now the most likely reason and way the Constitution would be displaced would be because of some Constitutional crisis (on obvious crisis might be increasing civil unrest based on the Court's absolute commitment to the commerce clause, though it's hard to think of what the specifics of such a crisis might be). Then a Constitutional Convention might be called and just as the first Constitutional Convention exceeded its mandate by basically discarding the Articles of Confederation (its mandate had been to revise them) and constructing and entirely new document, a new Constitutional Convention might do exactly the same thing. This, by the way, is why most people I know on the left now would oppose a Constitutional Convention now. The mood of the nation is really so conservative, especially on social issues, that a new Constitution today would undoubtedly end up being even less democratic than the one we have today, but that might not always be the case.
Hey man in princalple we mostly agree so I just don't want to go point by point is that OK?,
you will see my post over there, mostly I just don't trust what would have to be done to accomplish large changes.
Now there is one thing I suggest, the Bill of Rights was more of a pre requirement than after thought, it was agreed to up front.
The Bill of Rights was most definitely NOT "agreed to up front." If that had been the case it would have been part of the body of the document rather than formulated as a series of amendments.
There would have been no ratification without an agreement to pass the "Bill of Rights".
Tell that to the people who died last year. How many died in Germany?
You guys are always trying to confuse.
there were more military casualties under the Clinton administration with no wars than have been killed in Iraq or Afghanistan combined, each year.....feel free to check the DOD
more troops die in accidents than in battle, EVERY year....
here are the numbers from 1980 on:
1980 2,392
1981 2,380
1982 2,319
1983 2,465
1984 1,999
1985 2,252
1986 1,984
1987 1,983
1988 1,819
1989 1,636
1990 1,507
1991 1,787
1992 1,293
1993 1,213
1994 1,075
1995 1,040
1996 974
1997 817
1998 827
1999 796
2000 758
2001 891
2002 999
2003 1,410 534*
2004 1,887 900*
2005 919*
2006 920*
Ok so all this of irrelevant crap is supposed to convince everyone that being stationed in Iraq last year was pretty much like being stationed in Germany.
Have you check this with any actual service people?
Are there any out there who would like to weigh in?
“slammer” says doing duty in Iraq is the same as doing duty in Germany, I don’t think it is, but I was not either place in 2010 I might be wrong.
no, that is your spin, I never compared the actual duty, only the level of casualties.......
While it may be that there are more concentrated casualties in the conflict area's, the overall level of military casualties are NOT that much higher because of the operations than in "peacetime" levels of the past...
You really like to tell lies and manipulate the truth, don't you?
Here's where you compare Iraq with being in Germany, people can judge for themselves.
[-] 1 points by factsrfun (1491) 2 days ago While your at it tell me why the Iraq war lasted longer than WWII.
↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink [-] 0 points by slammersworldwillnotbecensored (46) 1 day ago actually the Iraq war only lasted about 10 months from the invasion to the capture of Saddam Hussein, the occupation lasted much longer.....but the "war" was relatively over in a very short time.....I'm not sure if you understand history but we still have occupying forces in Germany, in and and on the Islands around Japan today...so perhaps your assessment is a little flawed, as usual...
↥like ↧dislike reply permalink
I think I figured it out....
You might not be lying, you might simply be stupid...well, at the very least your reading comprehension skills are a bit lacking....
If you read that comment, you claimed the Iraq war lasted longer than WW2 because we were still in Iraq, and I commented that we were also still in Germany and the Pacific, and since I forgot...Korea
I did not make a comparison of the type of service that was required in the different assignments, only the length of time of occupation.....
I am sure you haven't served a day and cannot comment with any practical knowledge of life in the military....so I think you should just drop this before you look and sound even more foolish than you already have....
BTW all four sent teams for me, the Army and Marines just shook their heads and said we got nothin' tough enough for you, I went with Navy, little know fact the Navy kicks ass.
navy kicks ass? they do something with ass, but it ain't kicking it......
Oh how funny, guess we know what you think of those that serve.
no....it's called inter-service rivalry......
Grunts, Squids, Zoomies and Jarheads all bust each others balls....if you'd served you'd know this
NO I said we were at war in Iraq and you claimed we were at war in Germany in the same way since we occupied both, which of course is a misleading and pointless statement, something that is your stock and trade, the problem you have with me is I actually understand your crap.
the "war" with Iraq ending with regime change and the capture of Saddam.....after that it was/is random incidents with insurgents, and nation building/occupation..... NOT a "war"
we still "occupy" Korea, The Pacific Islands, Germany, and Japan as well.....and there are "incidents" in those countries as well......not very many now, as it's been a number of decades since the mass fighting ended......But, to say the "war" with Iraq lasted longer than WW2 is false and misleading.....
Tell that to the people who have been there the past few years, like I said.
oh yeah your excusses, I forgot those, Republicans got to have their excusses, cuase everything they do goes to crap.
agreed. the numbers are near worthless when they aren't priced to earnings. people who dont understand the market will simply look at the dow reapproching its high and think the markets are overpriced when in reality, they are still historically undervalued by about 10-15% when priced to earnings.
a long way higher to go for obama, really
im up about 6k this morning on the great job numbers teehee
When you sell the stock the profits spend just fine, imagine that.
yeah. i plan on buying a prius with my qualcomm profits.
thanks bernanke.
"It's money that I love..." R. Newman
nah. i dont love money but i dont feel guilty about making so much of it either. or spending it. its nice.
“Money can’t buy you love,
but it can buy a sixteen year old girl,
and half pound of cocaine,
and big long limousine,
on a hot September night,
now that may not be love...but it’s alright.” R. Newman
Facts? You brought facts? Well, of course, all we hear are the sounds of crickets.
Truth is something they have a lot of difficulty with, everything they want to do depends on people not hearing it, so they fill the space repeating things that never happen like tax cuts balancing budgets, but they just say it over and over till people give up or get confused, I like to keep it simple.
Excellent job, too.
Yep trolls are fact-challenged. It is pure poison to them.
Yes, they are and it makes this a fantastic thread. :D
Much agreement.
;)
Right now their most notable presence is in the silent down voting.
Yeah, I'm watching that. :D
It is actually their most effective tactic. Silence of the comments.
Sly devils.
It can't be that effective. We have been on to them for months.
Now, we are just playing peek-a-boo. :D
LOL - peek-a-boo - your funny - I like that in an intelligent individual.
People are noticing - so - it's like their most polite of nasty ads - for the movements against corruption.
Laughing