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Forum Post: Direct Democracy on Abortion

Posted 2 years ago on Dec. 22, 2011, 1:17 p.m. EST by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Is OWS ready to live with the fact that probably over 1/2 the states would vote to end it?

29 Comments

29 Comments


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[-] 2 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I'd like to see a direct democracy vote on whether to keep direct democracy as a basis for this movement.

I say we get rid of the direct democracy, lose the anarchy, develop a solid hiearchical organization structure, get some leadership with a focused agenda for making change in government.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I personally like the system we currently have, minus the campaign corporate funding. The problem isnt the system, its the apathetic public that doesnt take the time to understand the shit...

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I like our form of government too, just need to get rid of money in politics.

I was referring to OWS. I don't think direct democracy is useful or workable for anything beyond deciding where to go out for dinner and drinks with a bunch of friends. I don't think it is workable or efficient for anything larger scale than that. And certainly not for the scope and size of this movement.

[-] 2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I agree 100%. Ive been telling OccTampa that 1% of the area's population coming down to participate in direct democracy would be 22,000 people!

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

lol. That's another really interesting way of looking at it, that points out how absurd it is. I'd say you're right up with Isocrates!

“Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.”― Isocrates

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

Wow, that was an interesting quote. Thanks, April. I'm learning all kinds of things from you, and right now I'm learning more about Isocrates.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I have my moments. : )

I probably picked that up from Thrasymaque. He's big on the Greek philosopher stuff. Those ancient Greek guys are good at boiling stuff down. Actually, so are you!!

[-] 1 points by infonomics (393) 2 years ago

I would appreciate a clarification of your position on direct democracy. Are you oppose to direct online voting on congressional bills? I'm confused. I thought the mantra of this movement was "99%". How do you reconcile the mantra with a governing elite? You don't trust the masses?

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Yes, I'm opposed to direct online voting. I do not want to vote on bills. I am not qualified, nor do I want to be qualified to vote on legislation. I have a life. And I don't intend to spend it doing the job of my Representative. If I wanted to do that kind of work, I'd get a job in government.

I absolutely don't trust the masses to vote on complex pieces of legislation. How am I to trust that my neighbor or 100,000,000 people I don't know, have an appropriately educated understanding of trade policies for example. It would be uneducated mob rule.

I don't agree with the OWS principles of anarchy, direct democracy and non-heirarchical organization. I support the 99% Declaration group.

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 2 years ago

hchc = long-outed T R O L L

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Ok, just to clear up- Im pro choice, I have no business getting in other peoples business. Im not a woman either.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

so you definitely are a repelican hack

I thought so

next you'll want to bring back don't ask, don't tell

If it's just another method of gauging the mood or sentiment I'm afraid you will find the numbers at this point will be skewed in large measure simply because there are so few active OWS supporters on here now.

As for the rest - they are just trolls - much like yourself.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Now Im a troll? Im not for telling anyone what htey have to do, and certainly not for telling someone they cant serve because they're gay.

Its a question, something to consider. And the fact that my raising the question leads to your attacking just shows how easily the media has warped your ability to discuss things like an adult, hence all the little names you like to make for those you dont agree with.

Ill just go with straight Dem talking points from now on, is that better? WE wouldnt want any actual discussions on potentially divisive issues with direct democracy.

Everytime you act like that you further prove you dont have what it takes for change.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you further prove you dont have what it takes for change.

Of course I do.

Lets

Lets arrest every banking and investment executive who has tarnished the industry with fraud

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I'm going to have to assume that you didn't comprehend this guy's question, based on your very childish and polarized response that didn't even address his hypothetical question.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

which question? the

  • now I'm a troll

question?

or the question posed in the forum post? I mean, honestly, I'm not taking either question very seriously. I've followed hchc somewhat and the posts are clearly right wing.

too bad this forum isn't set up with links to every post each of us makes, because if there were I would quickly establish that assertion.

Is the question posed by the forum post relevant to anything? Sure, if you want to undermine the kids and their advocacy of direct democracy. I don't want to undermine the kids on that issue - I'm sure they will work that out soon enough.

I'd much rather keep them busy and agitating for real change

I plan to stand beside them, as one of them, every time they stand up on an issue where I support their advocacy.

What about you?

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

My role apparently is Devil's advocate. Supporting a friend when they do stupid things is not what a true friend does. A true friend is not shy about raising inconvenient or uncomfortable truths.

I continue to believe that you don't even understand the hypothetical and that's why you're unable to respond with anything other than polarized childishness about trolls. It was a legitimate and interesting hypothetical scenario, asked in a respectful way. You're not helping Occupy by responding with a knee-jerk "TROLL!" accusation any time that you see something that doesn't toe the party line.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Perhaps you do find the original question interesting.

Certainly the question as posed is likely to be a turn off to average liberals, if they consider the implications and the depth of commitment of some of the college kids to the issue of direct democracy.

I'm not interested in undercutting support for the movement in this manner.

Are you?

[-] 0 points by NewEnglandPatriot (916) from Dartmouth, MA 2 years ago

I am pro choice only in freedom aspect; although it goes against my own belief - let the spirit, creator, god or whatever you call sort it out - Creator to create life, if you are a destroyer of life then you will be punished for it. You make your own bed, lie in it. Also, my dad served during Vietnam in NAVY, told me don't ask don't tell was an unwritten rule. There were gays on his ship, and they kept it to themselves; they knew the punishment was a dishonorable discharge if caught in acts, or trying to promote it. It was an unwritten rule that was made into an issue by Clinton administration.

[-] -1 points by Farleymowat (415) 2 years ago

Abortion=murder

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

that is your view, and you as an American citizen and human being, are perfectly entitled to your view.

Cling to it, if you like.

but you will not dictate your moral standards on women all across this country.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

The point of the original post, I believe, is that the federal government dictates moral standards for the entire country, when many states would reverse that policy if they really had democratic control over that policy. If we had the kind of direct democracy that Occupy endorses, then abortion would be illegal in many states. It would also be illegal in many areas of the country to be gay, or to marry someone from another race, or to drink a beer on a Sunday.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

well I don't drink beer, not on Sunday, nor any other.

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 2 years ago

I firmly believe that you still don't understand the hypothetical question raised by the original poster.

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

read on

[-] 0 points by Farleymowat (415) 2 years ago

Of course not. The law of this land entitles a woman to murder her unborn child.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

If Direct Democracy led to lowering taxes on EVERYONE, would OWS support it.

Most of the issues in this country are almost 50/50. DD would be very interesting.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Im pretty sure this would be a huge problem with many people.

Direct Democracy leads to some things that go directly against OWS.