Forum Post: De facto symbol Guy Fawkes should be replaced
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 20, 2011, 4:25 p.m. EST by AdmTaptap
(17)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
De facto symbol Guy Fawkes should be replaced
Guy Fawkes intended to blow up Parliament, a violent action and a futile solution to a systemic problem. While I get the reference, it is not a good fit for what we are trying to accomplish.
I would suggest the adoption of Captain America's shield instead. Even with no specific reference, it would be immediately recognizable to the general population as a reference to the flag.
The Guy Fawkes mask scares the crap out of old people and the uptight suburban upwardly mobile. They didn't see the moving and have no idea who the real Fawkes was. They see the mask, maybe remember the Anonymous hacker group, and it freaks the out.
There is a lot of Captain America dialog which makes for excellent bullet/talking points (sound bytes) to pull from as reference for original material (not for plagiarism).
Think of the impact on television, both visually and psychologically, if the news were to broadcast a virtual sea of red, white, and blue, stars and stripes. People out in the "heartland" might decide that we are not just a bunch of dirty hippies and lazy stoners looking for a hand out, but maybe freedom fighters.
We have a serious image problem, people. Hate the Tea Party's ideals and tactics all you want, I do, but they are clean cut. And, unfortunately, there is a large population segment responds image over substance. Yes, all members of society are occupying. But the corporate-owned (Murdoch) media will only show the lowest common denominator in order to marginalize us.
I know we cannot stop people from using Guy Fawkes as their personal symbol. But as an organized effort, we can way outnumber them.
Power to the people but lose the fist. This is another public image failure. The logo of a balled fist sends the wrong message. All of these little symbol of anger hurt the cause. We should have a broom as our symbol or something that says "clean up" the system, not destroy it.
We need a positive image. And we need it fast.
Guy Fawkes mask symbolize Anonymous or being anonymous. many who are part of Anonymous( the group) support OWS and help start it. They have always championed the people's rights and fought those who violated those rights.
I am not a bigot and their is nothing wrong with the mask. It is a statement or expression and i see nothing wrong with it.
As for the Anonymous hackers group, their intentions may or may not have been to champion people's rights. I do not know.
But, the fact is that they endangered the public citizenry while doing it. They hacked into servers, took the personal information of innocent citizens and made it public thereby compromising they personal and financial safety. American citizen were expendable, collateral damage. If they truly cared about the common man, they have a funny way of showing it.
So, in that regard, they are exactly like Guy Fawkes, terrorists. Innocent bystanders are fair game.
"But, the fact is that they endangered the public citizenry while doing it. They hacked into servers, took the personal information of innocent citizens and made it public thereby compromising they personal and financial safety. American citizen were expendable, collateral damage. If they truly cared about the common man, they have a funny way of showing it." - No they dont. These are people who believe in the right of privacy ....religiously. They would never take a normal citizens information. Not from what i have studied of them. They go out of their way to try not to hurt innocent people in any way. They definitely care more about your privacy 10 times more than the govt does.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/08/hackers-strike-mybart
First paragraph: "Making good Sunday on its promise to attack BART’s website in a “censorship” protest, the shadowy Internet activist group Anonymous defaced the transit agency’s myBART site with its logo and released personal information - including passwords - of at least 2,400 of the site’s users."
They released personal information including passwords to 2400 site users. That is irresponsible and reckless.
That does not represent the group. Anonymous is a very loose organization of people. I do not agree with how that was handled by them. But i dont agree with a OWS protester defecating on a police car either.
The people in Anonymous that are responsible for that got carried away and i think made a poor choice. The group as a whole does not do things like that. However in that case i think the Anon that was probably personally offended and let emotions get the best of them.
If you study Anonymous with an unbiased view you will see that an action like that is unorthodox within the group.
Even so, that does not mean the Guy Fawkes is a suitable symbol of the OWS movement. Let Anonymous have it. Just as you say the BART perp was not a typical representation of Anonymous, Anonymous does not represent the OWS. The OWS is not an extension of Anonymous and should therefore, stand apart.
The symbol of OWS should be a manifestation of the ideals of America, a representation of the goals of the movement. It should also not represent the execution of the process used to achieve those goals. The American Flag was specifically created for that purpose. And it belongs to every American. It is accessible to every American because we ALL instinctively know what it means. We do not need a movie to connect the image with the concept.
Believe it or not, a vast majority of people never saw the movie and have no idea who Guy Fawkes was.
The mask are not a symbol of the movement. They are a symbol of Anonymous. But their is no reason to "ban" the mask in the movement.
lame...............
Very productive and astute. Thanks.
I would walk around with Captain Americas shield, it does represent America and it is cool, which I think is a plus.
I know, right?
I would love to destroy the system actually. It isn't "fixable". It like a car with a broken axle: It would cost more time, effort and money to fix our current system than it would to simply get a new one.
The Guy Fawkes Masks, to me, represent the slogan, "Power to the People" because that is what V was all about. I love them and think they should be the official symbol of this movement.
Let our gov't know that parliament getting blown up is what they have coming for them if they don't straighten up. I want the government to fear us. Fear is the most powerful tool of persuasion, and the government does not fear us.
That may have been the underlying message that Guy Fawkes felt, and the movie tried to portray, but relatively speaking very few people saw the movie and without the movie virtually no one has ever heard of Guy Fawkes. So the reference is completely lost.
Plus Guy Fawkes, while cool and sympathetic in the movie, was a terrorist in real life who had no problem killing innocent bystanders.
The great Francis Wright is a better symbol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Wright
While she may have great concepts to contribute, this post was to address the visual image problem. As things progress, people are expecting to see our image and platform coalesce into a coherent and accessible asset. They not only need to hear our message and solutions, but see us as fellow citizens. While it seems to me that a great number of people are trying to clarify the content of our message into something that the general public can resonate with, they also need to remain open to accepting that message when it comes. Currently, Wall Street is successfully manipulating the media outlets that they own and control to portray us a bunch of violent, dirty, trashy people who only want a hand out or student loans erased or some other freeloading ends. And when they repeat it there national broadcast echo chambers, to their listeners it becomes fact. At that point, we've lost.
Flagwashing our image could help them to realize that we are just Americans like them who want the system to serve the citizenry, not the corporations. But once that door closes, it won't open again. We may already be too late.
V for Vendetta has so many more useful quotes...
My personal favorite, and the one that I think should embody this movement:
"Fairness, Justice, and Freedom are more than words, they are perspectives."
Besides if enough people see the masks, they'll watch the movie so they can find out what it means. That's what happened to me. I saw anonymous using the mask, so I wanted to know what the mask was about. I found out what it was, I read the Wikipedia page about the movie and then decided I needed to watch the movie. It is by far one of my favorite movies.
I like the movie to it is a perfect way to represent our cause, just don't blow up parliament.
well, i mean, not parliament, buuuuttt...Congress...on the other hand, if they don't listen, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to blow up the capital building.
I doubt it would be a good idea due to the fact that there are still men and women in that building that are actually for our cause and not against us. They are just being ignored by the rich boys and girls so you wont hear much about them but they are there trying to help us because they do not agree with this horribleness either.
Yes, there is some great content in the text. However the imagery is dark, and sinister. Not what we want to project to Ma and Pa Kettle out in the boonies.
Even Ma and Pa can understand the bold quote.
Besides, aren't Ma and Pa out in the boonies the same people that, to this day, support wholeheartedly the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?
I don't see why those same people would be against a vigilante fighting fascism.
Personally, I think the use of masks is just a bad idea. It implies that we are subversive or nefarious.
You might be in for copyright infringement with Captain American unless you can get permission.
May I suggest also removing the "Fist". It reminds people of Stalin. Why not a "welcoming" image, eg. Lady Liberty with open arms w/o torch.
Yes, if we did a literal copy of copyrighted work, yes. Of course, the American flag is public domain and can be interpreted various ways. It's very subjective. I really can't image that they would put up much fuss unless we scanned in something and printed it off. I mean, the Disney/Marvel corporation coming down on people using their prior art as and American symbol of freedom? That stance would be all fail and hurt their image.
I think a broom is in order here. We want to clean up the system, not dismantle it.
Broom as opposed to the Fist? or as opposed to the Capt. Am shield?
The broom would be better at the top of this page. But anything is better than the fist/mask combination which says to average Americans that we are sinister, devious, sneaky people out to destroy the American way of life. Because that is what people are saying about us. And with what I see on TV, it's hard to argue starting from a defensive position.
Who made the fist mask combo? Can you get in touch with them? I don't think many people read this forum (everyone's just screaming for their candidate.)
But I agree with you, it's not only important to have good intentions, but it is also important to project a good image.
Moreover, I don't even know if very many people in the US know who Guy Fawkes was. I only know because I lived in the UK years ago.
Further, a broom might be mistaken for a witch's broom, probably not good.
How about a whisk boom and dustpan?
Smiley face masks?
Funny, family friendly. Sure. Oo, how about frowny faces. :-(
Yellow only.
Reagan would be great.
haha. Yeah, I hear he's available since the Republican Party no longer wants him.
Remember, Each time you buy one of those masks you are supporting that big, bad corporation Warner Brothers (and the Warner sister Dot).
Exactly. Who can't slap together a red-white-blue stars & stripes. Even is not specifically CapA, we should have America wrapped around us 24/7. Every image/photo, every video, every broadcast should be awash in stars and stripes.
That giant WOOSH sound that you'll soon hear is about 90% of casual support this "movement" might have among the general population instantly vanishing with the airing of the first political ad featuring the "scary" Anonymous vid promoting it. ; ) lol
Oh fuuuuuuuuuu-dge.
I can see it already...
Opens with a dark, scratchy, black and white vid with a few clips of Obama stating his support in what looks like an old war propaganda film with ominous music in the background...
Cuts to the best of the Anonymous vid....
Finishes with a guy wearing a Guy Fawkes mask who's done making the vid but still on cam...
As he turns away and lifts the mask, there's a split second where you can catch just enough of him that it kinda looks like Obama. lmao : )
Cut. Print!
(Psssttt... Karl Rove, if you're reading this I want creative royalties bro!)