Forum Post: [ D = R ] = BS
Posted 12 years ago on July 9, 2012, 8:52 p.m. EST by bensdad
(8977)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Public Forum
1 comments 4 days ago by grapes
0 comments 1 week ago by agkaiser
0 comments 1 week ago by agkaiser
0 comments 2 weeks ago by agkaiser
0 comments 2 weeks ago by agkaiser
0 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
2 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
0 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
1 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
0 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
1 comments 1 month ago by agkaiser
0 comments 2 months ago by agkaiser
1 comments 3 months ago by agkaiser
0 comments 3 months ago by factsrfun
7 comments 3 months ago by factsrfun
4 comments 4 months ago by factsrfun
6 comments 4 months ago by factsrfun
4 comments 4 months ago by gsw
7 comments 4 months ago by factsrfun
3 comments 4 months ago by agkaiser
2 comments 5 months ago by agkaiser
1 comments 5 months ago by grapes
2 comments 5 months ago by agkaiser
0 comments 5 months ago by agkaiser
Obama 2012 propaganda on an OWS site = BS
Romney 2012 propaganda on an OWS site = BS
Ron Paul 2012 propaganda on an OWS site = BS
Voted straight "green candidates" in the/primaries: we have mail in voting and top 2 go to general ballot.
[Removed]
I get what you mean nothing the SCOTUS does matters anyway, nothing congress does matters, nothing the President does matters, OWS must be about camping tips?
Decisions made by the supreme court definitely do matter. Thanks to them unlimited money can fund campaigns and their BS propaganda and then people can flood the OWS site with the BS propaganda
Lucky (according to you) who wins doesn't matter since they all work for rich people right? Or are you starting to realize that it does matter who holds office, the things they do affect people and we should care, at least enough to keep Republicans out of offfice, you don't have to know much to know that much, now do you?
You keep putting words in my mouth. When have I ever said "who wins doesn't matter." I have never once said that. All I've said is I do not support warmongers.
I care enough to vote against the warmongers that approve of killing American citizens without filing charges, without providing evidence, no trial, and no legal authority to kill them. But that's just me.
I kind of draw the line at murder. Both the GOP and Obama are murderers.
So even though you know that one of them will win you don't care which one, am I right about that?
Why do I hear Cat Stevens' "It's a Wild/Cruel world" every time I see a TM whine???
One day if he sees these he is going to be very embarrassed. Or... he's a Con plant.
if he's getting money for his post,
I want a contact number
you work for ASCAP, too?
R U a Plant?
Boycott Chic fil A and the GOP!
Get out the VOTE!!
you might be on to something
Don't you hear it, too?
The problem is neither of them should win. Just because a bunch of people vote for people who are wrong for this country is no reason for me to vote for them. Next you'll suggest I jump off a bridge because everyone else is doing it?
I will never vote for someone with a pro-war policy and thinks murdering American citizens without charge, trial, or evidence is acceptable activity.
THE END
so I was right the first time you don't care who wins which means you don't care what happens, that is the end, and here you were trying to say you did care about who wins but when faced with reality you don't isn't that about right?
I care who wins the presidency. Which is why I don't want Romney or Obama. I wanted Dennis Kucinich to win in 2008. I want a real progressive to win in 2012. If people weren't blinded by propaganda this election would be between Jill Stein and Gary Johnson.
I want to win the lottery, don't think it's too likly, tell how do you see neither Obama nor Romney winning, I know I've asked before, but until we answer that question if we want to pick who is in the White House we should make sure our vocie is heard loud and clear by picking the person we want. Now assuming I'm not winning the lottery anytime soon who has a chance? and of those who should we support?
So you support the jumping off a bridge theory?
Everyone else is doing it...
No thanks
love the bridge call
Where are these people? I don't know where the bridge you speak of is?
Unless you are speaking metaphorically like people blindly jumping into an abyss with no plan, like voting for a third party no I don't think people should jump off bridges. People should do smart things like vote Republicans out of office, with their eyes wide open, after all you would have to be blind not to see how bad these republicans are.
You told me I shouldn't vote for who I think is right.... someone like a progressive like Jill Stein.
You said everyone else is voting Romney or Obama so you said I should vote for Obama or Romney because everyone else is doing it. And you have said that anything else is throwing your vote away
So I compared that theory to the jumping off a bridge theory. I don't do things because everyone else is doing it.
How many countries has Obama bombed? How much money has the modern day Black Water made since he's been in office? Why isn't that stopping?
I will never again vote for a pro-aggressive war candidate. End of story. you will not convince me to vote for Obama. Just like no republican will ever convince me to vote for Romney.
Just like no republican will ever convince me to vote for Obama.
coward?
I remember when you used your words to persuade, when that fails the true self is revealed?
And if your vote is the one Obama needs to beat Romney, you're OK with that I'm not that's the difference between me and you. You think it's OK for Romney to be President, I don't.
Whaaaat!. No bombing?. How the fuck are we gonna kill the "terrorists" if we don't drone bomb them where ever they are? We gotta keep bombing or the right wing electorate will vote Obama outta office. You don't know that?. Do you know anything about American politics.? The republicans have labeled Democrats soft on defense. Obama cannot stay in office if doesn't have a robust anti terrorist bombing program. It's just the way it is. The cost of keeping the right wing wackos out of office. I guess you want Obama to lose so Romney gets in?
you have no respect for logic
And if your vote is the one Obama needs to beat Romney, you're OK with that I'm not that's the difference between me and you. You think it's OK for Romney to be President, I don't.
coward
Someone fix this broken record. ^^^
You fuckin moron. This country is right wing. republicans are not going to vote for Obama. Of course not idiot. The election is always won with the 10-20% independent. They have been shellshocked into fear. they have been convinced we must bomb to be safe. Thats the way it is. You don;t know that then you don't know what the fuck is going on around you. They are the ones who have been moved right. So we bomb. and the dead sacrifice so that we can keep the right wing from bombing more. It's fucked up. I know. Such is life. Bombing indiscriminately is the price of keeping the far worse right wing out. Don't be a pussy. just swallow hard and vote for the the Obomber in chief baby. Ha Ha Ha!
Drumming techniques. How to dry your sleeping bag on the only legible sign in less that two weeks. How Voting ruins a political movement. What do you know, I was in OWS in September!
so you've been working to keep us from getting anything done for a long time, so what?
"Camping tips"??
I'm joking WITH you. Got to get off that NPR, makes you old and slow!
sorry I've been rushing through trying to catch up, had a few things around the house I had to attend to
I believe we have saboteurs, agent provocateurs. I also believe this whole bubbleheaded, OWS=Anarchy Not Political Action thing is part of it. Plants inciting infighting and inaction leading into an important election. Reports are out that NY "law enforcement" is monitoring protestors in new ways: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/25/us-newyork-occupy-report-idUSBRE86O1PA20120725
"They" want to continue what happened in WI, and repeat 2010!!
of course we do, as long as we tell the truth and avoid the temptations of ego, they will not matter
They are only after egotistical liars??
Not zombies, not trolls; disruptors and action extinguishers.
We have one weapon in this class war, it's the Vote. We have one in about 90 days. What do these "plants" discourage above all else?... If Cons repeat 2000, 2010, and '12 WI, we'll look back on Bush-Cheney years fondly.
"More money than any election EVER", Bill Press just announced for this segment's topic, rep for Democracy Is For People, interview.
I do my best to be unaffected by their chatter, the ego is always our greatest enemy.
Get out the Vote.
[Removed]
Anti-Political, anti-democratic, anti-Voting propaganda on a 99% VS 1% Class War site = RepubliCon Sabotage!!
I'm not saying don't vote. I'll be voting this year.
I'm just saying propaganda is bullshit.
You espouse your do-nothing, both-same, propaganda all the time!!
Protesting against 1% tyranny in the Class War against the 99% is propaganda!!
Are you sincerely that ignorant, or are you really a clumsy Cop or Con plant???
yeah dude I'm a plant.
give me some water and sunlight and maybe I'll grow.
LOL you are a fuckin' riot
You're inept and clumsy and ill-informed, but you sabotage time and progress and action at every turn.
"OWS=Non-action dude!"
If you're not a plant, you might as well be one!
You are a laugh riot... did you know that?
I do.
So are you a plant?
You might check your glasses. An R is written on the right lens and an L is written on the left lens. If you wipe both the R and the L off you will be able to see clearly.
Why should I try to see the truth when I can keep searching for evidence to fit my predetermined conclusions? It's fun!
Don't the r's & d's run the country & the world? Should we pretend they don't exist.? A bit immature no? Should we perpetrate the fallacy that "they are the same"? THEY AIN"T!!
Please deal with reality.! The election is in less then 4 months. Do not let the conservative 1% plutocrat puppets amass more power.
Force all pols especially dems to live up to their spoken support for OWS, and the progressive solutions we need to undo the damage from the conservative policies that repubs proudly trumpet and SOME blue dog, spineless dems betray us to vote for.
Or just spew clever insults about how we can't see the past our clouded glasses. That is useful.
Peace & Solidarity
I can see you wear the same set of glasses.
[Removed]
OOOO! How clever. You see so much clearer than us!
Except all you have is clever one liners. Sometimes, You non glasses wearing people also pull out some vicious insults too. Is that next?
But with all you're superior vision it never really gets beyond that.
Peace, clear view boy.
I see dozens of people who can't write a single post without including a reference to R and D, blue and red, conservative and liberal, or to the people who are symbols of each party.
Occupy is not about parties, it's about exposing injustice. When political bias sneaks into our discussions, it needs to be removed. It does not belong here.
Bias on the political right or left is as equally offensive as racial bias is between Blacks and Whites, or Jews and Arabs. I've seen some people protest here when someone attacks a race, religion, or other group, but rarely do they speak against an attack on a political group.
Attacking parties is an Ad Hominem argument. Proper debate excludes this tactic. Attack the injustice instead, no matter what side it lies on.
Think of all the lives, homes and treasure that would have been saved if people didn't think like you in 2000, 2004 and 2010 with so many destructive and costly RepubliCon policies avoided. What selfish idiots people like you are!
From Wisconsin to Worker's rights, to tyrannical dictators, this is what OWS is about, and it's political.
You forgot 2008.
No I didn't.
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Forgetting 2008 was no mistake as it did not fit in well with his argument, nor did the President's lack of support in Wisconsin.
Regarding Obama and Wisconsin. Sometimes what a person doesn't say speaks louder than what he does say.
Agreed, although 'he' did cover himself with a supportive tweet the night before the vote I believe.
Yes i agree, The public schools have done there job well, to brainwash and breed a mass of complacent people, Politics are not about personal opinion, and elections are not about your personal vote. R + D = Divided. This is easy math. A divided 99% stands no chance against the wealth and power of the united 1%. Most of the politics and decision making lie in financial interest outside this county, We are just the cogs of a marvelously, massive, destructive, WAR machine. A never ending pool of green blood to be taped and re-taped at any time. As the R's slowly join the L's in the financial rankings it becomes easer to see trough those so called glasses. There is no L or R theirs just us, No black, no red, no white, no yellow. If we cant get over theses lies that divide us to this day, Then all of this is just a waste of time. Staying small and local is the key. By showing your states and overwhelming request to (se·cede) Withdraw formally from membership in the federal union ( World Banks) and give the states back to the people. Its time to EVOLVE. Thanks for pointing out the obvious jrhirsh.
We should evolve into one world govt without plutocrats controlling everything.
Power to the people.
Peace
I do not trust what would happen if we tear up the Constitution, the history is that it is not the "good" people that take control in such times, I think if we rid ourselves of the GOP we can fix this so the people can benefit from productivity not just the 1%.
Ridding ourselves of GOP probably would help short term.
But really the idea is to convince enough people to support progressive policies (not conservative) Which shouldn't be difficult since progressive policies benefit most people.
Next we must get the voter turnout up to 90% at least. (I say mandatory voting like Australia) (repeal electoral college, money out of politics, expand House of reps, open primaries, and other changes)
With this I think a 2nd party (even 3rd and 4th) can exist but all parties will lean progressive. And therefore we will have "gotten rid" of republican supported conservative approach that benefits the 1% plutocrats.
I can see where you could see it that way, but having followed it for a bit I have watched how the GOP have engineered the conditions we have today. They cannot back away from their unrestricted support of the super wealthy, it is their sole reason for existence if we are relentless in exposing this relationship we can get Americans to turn their backs on the GOP once and for all. If that happens the 1% will lose their champions in government and suddenly doing things that help most people make sense, and we stop the madness. I know this would work I just don't know if we will do it.
There is never going to be mandatory voting in the USA. On the contrary voting is being made more difficult especially for the groups that the GOP wants to disenfranchise, those being the electoral base of the Democratic party. Must be some reason they don't want poor people, Blacks, Hispanics and students to vote. Hm, lessee....
The repubs can't win w/o cheating. We will/must have mandatory voting. It's what the plutocrats fear most of all.
I say it isn't going to happen without such an overturn and turn around in politics that virtually it would require a flat out revolution, which the dems are not going to lead or even be a part of (not the big national leaders, anyhow).
I don't follow. Sorry. Can you rephrase?
Money is not going to be chased out of politics and mandatory voting is not going to be introduced through the very political system you hope to reform. It's beyond reform. We'd have to reach a point where the mentality of the 99 would be repelled by and absolutely hostile to political advertisements. Not most of the 99 but virtually all of the 99. Without that you can b et that Congress and the various state legislatures will not introduce mandatory voting or eradicate money from politics. That would be expecting the pols to virtually kill themselves, or find honest work.
Then I guess there is no hope. What should we do? wait until everyone is disatisfied? try to convince everyone? Whats your plan?
what the dems/libs fear is photo voter ID. it makes voter fraud difficult.
Nah. we'll all have id's I suppose eventually. This new cheating attempt is only useful because repubs are doing it 100 days before the election. (slimey cheats) but mostly we've stopped it where it matters. Pa is still a problem. We'll see if we can stop the republican cheating.
the campaign for photo voter id has been going for awhile. the dems have always been against it.
Oh so it just so happens that it's all coming to a head now? You're a little naive, or you think I am if you think I would believe that ridiculousness.
Republicans know they can't win without cheating. Just like 2000, and 2004.
Why do you lie about these things?
Did you forget the 90's?
Were you alive and reasoning then?
if you're poor and you're getting medicaid, food stamps, section 8 housing, you have to ID yourself. if you can do that then why cant you produce a photo ID? the govt will provide it if you cant pay for it. you are saying that poor, black, hispanics and students are too stupid to get an ID.
Just another barrier. And not everyone is aware for example that their State ID has expired, or the their student ID won't be valid. But every bit of noise about that helps spread awareness, so thanks big boy.
what barrier?
A devious plan to discourage people whose lives are often overwhelmed with problems, who are not very enthusiastic about the system and the government process anyway. A devious plan whereby elderly people get telephone calls from GOP operatives telling them they don't need certain ID that they will need. You bastards.
if they had to show ID to get food stamps, welfare, section 8 housing, they can show ID to vote. can you document any phone call from republicans , and document that they're republicans regarding ID?
Agreed!
Your welcome. R + D = Divided. Like that. A united left and right is the 1%'s greatest fear. 1%-D-R=99%
How can we unite the Left and Right.? Unite around what?
The 800 Lb gorilla. Corporate and political corruption. Both sides see it and despise it, but fight among themselves instead. As long as we are distracted by petty political bickering, we ignore the gorilla, and it continues to eat our food and gains in size and ferocity.
Ex-cellent! I agree.
80% of the population (L & R) want money out of politics. So we can get that done.
Anything else?. What else do the 2 ends of the political spectrum agree on?
Peace.
Getting the 80% to agree on getting money out of politics, together, will be a difficult task. Just look at the divide between OWS'ers here. It will be difficult enough for many of us to agree to work together
Well since there are growing movements (many state legislatures) to do it we should support those movements. find out which candidates support it.
And keep up the pressure. But there must be other issues we could agree on. What about wall st crimes. I thought the right wing tea partiers were against them.
Seems like they would be against it, since it is ny centric and the "real america" people appear to hate anything big city related.
Peace
I believe Bernie Sanders could be a good place to start.
The Second Vermont Republic is a nonviolent citizens' network and think tank committed to: (1) the peaceful breakup of meganations such as the United States, Russia, and China; (2) the political independence of breakaway states such as Quebec, Scotland, and Vermont; and (3) a strategic alliance with other small, democratic, nonviolent, affluent, socially responsible, cooperative, egalitarian, sustainable, ecofriendly nations such as Austria, Finland, Sweden, and Switzerland which share a high degree of environmental integrity and a strong sense of community.
http://vermontrepublic.org/
I favor fewer nations. Too many have used nationalism as an excuse to invade and make war. "Imagine theres no country" JL
One world gov. United States of Earth.!
Peace
Glad you like that idea. Getting corruption out of our political system is more than enough to keep us busy for a while. Let's not put too much hay on the pitchfork.
When we try to branch out too much, we tend to get caught up in discussing our differences, instead of uniting in this one cause.
IMO, the next step is trying to reach agreement on HOW to get money out.
Oh. all done?
Wow.
Well we got a few organizations trying to end the laws that define corps as people, and equate money with speech, supporting publicly funded campaigns.
Thats covered.
You ain't interested in anything else huh?
I'm interested in many other things, but I think we've got to get the undue influence of money out first. I see progress being made on a constitutional amendment, but it isn't even close to done yet.
Right! Even us NY'rs.
How can we get the right wingers on board.
Peace
I think the organizations working towards this end must keep very focused on that one issue and aggressively avoid even the appearance of partisanship.
Agreed. many state legislatures. "amend it to end it" I think. bensdad from this site has a petition in the works. Congresspeople as well. No doubt there is movement, and I agree it will take years.
In the meantime we should attempt to address other issues. What about wall st crimes, wasn't tea partiers against that at some point.?
I would imagine the vast majority of Americans are against wall street crimes.
The right IS corruption itself. So is capitalism.
Corruption doesn't choose sides. A system is only as corrupt as it's members allow.
Unite around having a political system where our representatives are responsive to all of their constituents rather than those with the most money.
Ex-cellent! I agree.
80% of the population (L & R) want money out of politics. So we can get that done.
Anything else?. What else do the 2 ends of the political spectrum agree on?
Peace.
And held legally responsible, but then again you would have to get rid of privet sector influence, right?
I don't see it as eliminating private sector influence. I just think that the influence of big money, whether from big corporations or wealthy individuals, is so great that little consideration is given to the interests of the public at large.
Agreed! Whats your stance on the world banks. and the treasury of the U.S.? Isn't that a privet sector? shouldn't at least the U.S. treasury be public sector? Being told i have to bail out bad business is not my idea of whats good. I f I do bad at my Business I lose work, If i steal, I goto jail. What can the people do to take better control of the Fed?
Yessir!! Why Occupy was such a strong force in the beginning, a very diverse crowd all expressing anger at the power structure..
Lotta right wingers there at the beginning HC?
Your attacking the Dems!
BTW. "occupy is not about parties" "...needs to be removed. it does not belong here" LMFAO.
Who the fuck do you think you are!? Are you kidding.? This is what happens when someone starts believing their own BS. You see better than everyone so I guess you speak for OWS, and you decide what belongs here.
Gimme a break. What policies should be repealed? Which should be implemented.?
Your just an anti dem partisan.
Peace
[Removed]
And now look who is attacking? ahem...you
What attack? None! Who am i Attacking? The guy telling me I don't belong here.? No need, He seeks to ban me! No attack required just gotta call those unfair tactics out.
I guess you agree with his effort to silence opposing views. I'm afraid we have to disagree.
Freedom of speech, expression, conscious, assembly. press. All can apply. If your position is too weak to stand up against others you can't say your not allowed to speak.
Not allowed. Not gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.
Peace
VQkag2 replies... "Who little ole me? I'm not attacking anybody? My shit don't stink!"
Your own words above are an attack... You wrote: "Who the fuck do you think you are!" (exclamation point!) The partisan attack dog continues... "Are you kidding.? This is what happens when someone starts believing their own BS."
These are attacks of character - ad hominem. Nothing else needs to be said until, at a minimum, you can own up to your own bullshit.
I don't believe that person speaks for OWS. And I stated as much.
The quoted statements you attribute to me did not come from me. That is clearly made up. You can't stick with the truth because your arguments/positions are too weak.
Peace, Love, & understanding! (whasso funny 'bout it?)
Do you care to own up to using logical fallacies - ad hominem and straw man arguments?
The quote was made up and used to poke fun at your inability to own up to your own pile of BS.
Please! I do not submit to your description of the conversation. Nor do I subscribe to your accusations against me.
I have every right to express my opinion here. You have spent many commenst attacking me and my right to express my opinion. Your goal appears to be to silence me, or get me to leave this site.
You haven't discussed any issues of substance that hurt the 99%. Forget about me. Perhaps you should expend some energy convincing people what issues/policies we need to support to help the 99%.
We disagree.
Support OWS. Vote out anti LGBT politicians
No, I have pointed out your use of logical fallacies. You can't hide from them because they are all right there in the open. Either own up to using poor and illogical methods of argument, or don't expect to be taken seriously by people who argue in a logical way.
And, yes, you have the right to express your opinion here. Did I say otherwise? Nope... and your attempt to suggest I did say this is just one more example of a logical fallacy - straw man.
And you are wrong in saying that I haven't discussed any issues that hurt the 99%. Perhaps you forgot about the post below that states this:
And maybe if you partisan folk understood that our problems have roots in Empire's imperialist policies we could start having honest discussions. There are brilliant political theorists who have taken the time to write objective analysis' of our country. One such man is Sheldon Wolin, professor emeritus of politics at Princeton University.
Professor Sheldon Wolin wrote: "What is democracy doing bearing the stigma of empire? Recall that the United States was born in a revolution against imperial power. Recall as well, however, that the Founders favored a republic over a democracy because the latter could not be accommodated to an "enlarged sphere," to a huge geographical expanse. And recall that the American citizenry has a long history of being complicit in the country's imperial ventures. The imperial impulse is not a tic afflicting only the few. The difference may be that, unlike, say, the Roman and British empires, the American empire is repressed in the national ideology.
"Virtually from the beginning of the nation the making of the American citizen was influenced, even shaped by, the making of an American imperium. The nineteenth-century expansion of the country to the west and southwest was achieved by military victories over various Indian nations and Mexico. It brought new opportunities for enterprise, exploitation, and ownership. It made conquest and violence familiar, part of everyday experience.”
He continues... "It makes no sense to ask how the democratic citizen could "participate" substantively in imperial politics; hence it is not surprising that the subject of empire is taboo in electoral debates. No major politician or party has so much as publicly remarked on the existence of an American empire. Imperial power is not about restraint, and the consequences of empire are evident in domestic policies: in military expenditures, subsidies to globalizing corporations, mounting deficits, and the decimation of social programs and environmental safeguards."
The US Empire is impoverishing ALL of us! Imperial policies hurt the 99%! Do you care to discuss how both parties have sworn allegiance to Empire and the imperialist policies that are hurting the 99%? Or would you prefer to suggest it is only the conservatives who support Empire? Professor Wolin again... "Since that September day it is not only the ordinary routines and liberties of citizens that have been changed. The constitutional institutions designed to check power - Congress, courts, an opposition political party - swore allegiance to the same ideology of vengeance [and myth] and enlisted themselves as auxiliaries" to Empire. Both parties continue “to repress their involvement in the vast expanse of power of empire and globalization.” Do you care to discuss these points which come from one of the most authoritative political sages of our day?
Yeah yeah. THE PLAN.! You got anything but insults.?
Anything beyond trying to silence opposing views?
Anything? Anything at all?
Support OWS. Vote out anti pell grant politicians
I almost feel sorry for people like you...
I've made no attempt to silence your views. This is a straw man argument.
I've plugged an authoritative and credible source to try shed light on the issues at hand - the US Empire and how BOTH parties have sworn allegiance to Empire.. But, you would rather try to undermine him and his hypothesis... why? Do you have anything at all that isn't so downright anti-intellectual and illogical?
I don't know your professor, Have no reason to discredit him. Have not tried to undermine him! Your behavior is more hurtful to his credibility.
Your inability, or unwillingness to discuss his thoughts and/or plan and/or solutions in your own words is most telling.
Good luck. If what you want is to help the 99% and end the plutocratic system we struggle under, I hope you succeed.
Peace
VQkag2 wrote... "I don't know your professor, Have no reason to discredit him. Have not tried to undermine him! Your behavior is more hurtful to his credibility."
Yes, you have tried to undermine and discredit him. What exactly do you think this language of yours means? "A lotta hot air. What is you and the good professors plan. You gonna end the empire with massive hot air?" That is an attempt to undermine something you obviously know nothing about.
You have also attempted to undermine the book and him by trying to falsely suggest it wouldn't be worth checking out because the suggestion comes from "hostile and unstable" person who has "fascist tendencies" to try to silence you. All, of course, simply based in unfounded assertions and illogical thinking.
Then you even tried to undermine the link I provided by saying you might get a computer virus by clicking on it. Hilarious in itself because the link is from princeton.edu...
VQkag2 wrote... "Your inability, or unwillingness to discuss his thoughts and/or plan and/or solutions in your own words is most telling."
His words and thoughts speak for themselves. THe princeton.edu link even has a brief summary of his book and chapter one to read. I know, I know... you are too paranoid to click it. His book and excerpts are freely available for all to read... so go check it out for yourself. Oh, heck, I know you aren't interested in that... so READERS please go check out his brilliant book.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8606.html
Here is a link to a free read of his introduction: (it's google.books) so no need for paranoia and thoughts of getting a computer virus :-) http://books.google.com/books?id=lFHBpgjkxe4C&pg=PR9&lpg=PR9&dq=sheldon+wolin+spare+change&source=bl&ots=MjVrldBgn5&sig=iL_rLLT6kb485FTi-elu8JVujXE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I0r_T9_5LY-uqQHJhfWOCQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=sheldon%20wolin%20spare%20change&f=false
And, thanks again VQkag2 for one more opportunity to plug a brilliant analysis of the state of our current political economy! ;-)
Don't even know your professor. Who cares? Whats his plan?
Do you know his plan? Can you verbalize it with big boy words?
If you can't discuss his plan maybe you don't understand it. Or maybe you don't believe in it? Whatever. All you've done is insult me and attempt to silence me.
Peace out
Why don't you go find out what his hypothesis and solutions are for yourself. It's okay to educate yourself once in awhile.
Sheldon Wolin, "Democracy Inc: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism."
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8606.html
And thanks for the opportunity to plug a book that should be required reading by all. The one thing people who try to undermine and discredit valuable and important information don't understand is the more you huff and puff and sling out illogical rants the more public notice and attention you bring to these things. Your attempt to undermine and silence this important and credible source has the opposite affect, and draws people into checking it out for themselves. Thanks again.
yeah yeah. I read it last time you cut an pasted it. Very general. offers no solutions. A lotta hot air.
What is you and the good professors plan. You gonna end the empire with massive hot air?
LMFAO.
Peace
Support OWS. Vote out pro ALEC voter suppresion politicians.
There. that is specific. Lets see you try.
haha... wow, so carelessly going to try to discredit a 90 year old professor of emeritus of politics at Princeton University from a few short paragraphs of his brilliant hypothesis found in his book? ("Democracy Inc: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism")
Seriously, this is one of the most pathetic and anti-intellectual posts I've seen from a supposed progressive person in awhile because you are attempting to undermine and discredit one of the most authoritative and brilliant political theorists/philosophers/sages of our day. This isn't a "goo" professor from make believe "hot air" land. This is a person who has dedicated his life to understanding the political world from ancient Greece to the present day. And apparently one of the most prestigious colleges in the world agrees that his voice and his hypotheses deserve to be heard! And, yes, solutions are found in his book.
And you want to undermine this whole process? This is the very definition of anti-intellectual. You might want to be more careful because your becoming unhinged from your supposed progressive online persona....
No thanks.
You are clearly hostile and unstable. I wouldn't take your advice on anything, and I would discourage anyone who might consider your suggestions. The professor may be worthwhile reading but his marketing guy is just offensive with fascist tendencies in dealing with opposing views. If that is what your professor approves of maybe he isn't a worthwhile read.
And I certainly wouldn't click on your links. I've been warned about possible virus infections so, if you can't post what his/your solutions are I guess I'll never know.
Oh well.
Support OWS. Vote out pro wealthy tax cut politicians
Thanks again for the opportunity to plug Wolin's book.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8606.html
And I'm not plugging it to help him sell books; I'm plugging it because I, and many other credible professors, think it is one of the most brilliant and important analysis' of the state of our current political economy.
Professor Wolin would probably laugh at your use of a straw man argument to suggest that I am trying to "silence" you with a "fascist tendency." He would probably laugh at your other logical fallacy - ad hominem (suggesting I am "hostile" and "unstable") In fact, anybody with a logical mind, for that matter, who reads through this conversation will easily be able to pinpoint who the illogical and anti-intellectual person here is, you.
Yeah, and a princeton.edu link is looking to infect your computer with a virus. Hilarious! I almost fell off my chair laughing so hard at that one. This is so comical as to almost make one feel sorry for you because you are so desperately drawing at straws in your attempt to undermine Wolin's book. And if you are such a paranoid person then you don't have to click on the link and can simply do a google search.
I do have to wonder why you are Trying. So. Hard to undermine and deflect attention from a brilliant and scientifically based analysis. What could possibly motivate a person to work so hard to undermine and discredit a scientifically based analysis, and a brilliant and authoritative professor? Like I said before, you really have become unhinged from your fake online persona. And, again, what public relations specialists don't seem to understand is that the harder you try to undermine and discredit ideas, the more you bring notice to them, and the more likely people are going to check them out for themselves - especially on a site like this. Your dishonest attempt to undermine and discredit has the opposite affect... but keep on with your ways. I relish in the opportunity to continue to spread scientifically valid and important analysis' of the state of our political economy, and your anti-intellectual, illogical and dishonest ways will not dissuade me
Looks like you better not vote for Obama or Romney, because they both support this http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/09/2888901/president-barack-obama-asks-congress.html
Agreed, As soon as you concern yourself with the 'good' and 'bad' of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you. Morihei Ueshiba.
[Removed]
Does political bias belong in our discussions here?
Why not?
What kinda fascist, ignorant, fearful, weak moron thinks that we should accept only one opinion.
You appear to favor repubs. I've never suggested you or the other anti dems "don't belong here" that is ridiculous. My arguments are strong enough to compete in the marketplace of ideas.
I guess yours are not.! HA! That is why you use simpleton insults. That is why you want to silence opposing views!
You simply want progressives to stay home. You can't debate intelligently. You have to attempt to intimidate with the school yard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney.
Conservatives bully. Progressives are inclusive and filled with love.
You betray your political persuasion by your tactics.
LMFAO
What policies?
Peace, Love, and understanding
And not only are you attacking... you are firing away with logical fallacies - straw man argument and ad hominem. Good stuff.
Thanx.
Which 1 opinion should we allow? Which opinions should we ban?
Peace
I don't really care what you follow... just stop using logical fallacies while continuing to think you are somehow logical.
So you also think you have the authority to tell me to "stop....." doing something? Are you joking? Seems delusional! Who the fuck do you think you are!!!
I will do, say whatever I God Damn please!! You are Irrelevant. Meaningless. A gnat.
support OWS! Vote out anti green tech politicians!
Peace
I don't have the authority to stop you from doing anything... so please go ahead and continue to use logical fallacies... just don't expect people who can argue logically to take you seriously.
"I will do, say whatever I God Damn please!! You are Irrelevant. Meaningless. A gnat."
And there you go again... foaming at the mouth and slinging more personal attacks. Like I said, if this is your ownly tactic then don't expect people who use logic when arguing to take you seriously.
C'mon. give it rest. logical boy! You've hurled this psuedo intellectual accusation of "logical fallacy" at me repeatedly but you haven't specified what I've said that falls into that catagory.
Support OWS. Be inclusive! .We embrace all non violent tactics and many political persuasions. It's the only way to grow! The only way to win.!
Didja see Occupy and moveon.org protesting Romney in suffolk county this w/e. Go Team!!
You really are an anti-intellectual... I have specified, specifically, what things you have done that are considered logical fallacies. But you simply twist and turn like a slimeball in an attempt to invert the matter.
Yes sir. Your so generous with your education. I'm not worthy.
Thank you so very much.
Wow you are so superior. I'm so lucky to have you interested in my simple little posts. I hope one day I can live up to you (and the great sages) expectations.
Thank you. Thank you and thank you.
I'm not trying to educate you. I'm simply pointing out your use of logical fallacies. And logical fallacies are not worthy to a logical discussion... whether you are a worthy person in your everyday life is not for me to judge, nor was I ever attempting to do so. I don't care about your personal life; I care about having logical discussions. You can either own up to perpetuating illogical arguments or continue on as your were...
Your not makin sense.
Support OWS. Vote out anti public option politicians
Peace.
Then maybe the problem is that you don't understand what a logical fallacy is. Start there....
More insults!. You are clearly spent. And I have dispatched your fascist attempts at silencing my good efforts.
Begone! You are repetitive and without substance. Perhaps you can cut & paste more knowledge from others, but clearly you have no thoughts of your own beyond attempting to silence opposing views.
You have not even been a worthy opponent. You are dismissed.
I feel sorry for people like you... good luck with your illogical world. I'm done conversing with you, but I will leave the space below for you to continue on with your dishonest and anti-intellectual ways...
For you to tell me what to do requires that you be told that you are meaningless.
And so I did. If you do so again. You will be told again.
Support OWS. Vote out anti greentech politicians.
Okay... logical fallacy man. You make yourself irrelevant by constantly using them and pretending that you don't when you get called out on it. And you will be told again.
if you're interested in injustice , why not go after the current adminstraion regarding fast and furious?
Attack the greater injustice first. Afghanistan would be #1 on a very long list.
We're ending Bushs Afghan Gas war.
Done, Anything else.
Bushs Fast & Furious?. Ended. Done!
More? No?
Good.
Because it's a bunch of trumped up "right" wing bullshit.
You should try and keep up.
no dear, it isnt.
I'm afraid it is, along with all the rest of the "right" wing BS.
http://www.politicususa.com/obamas-guns-anatomy-fox-news-conspiracy.html
Welcome to the FLAKESnews rabbit hole, fully endorsed by Rush.
the bush program was called "wide receiver". all the guns were tracked and monitored. it resulted in about 1400 arrests and was done with the knowledge and consent of the mexican govt. when it found out that the guns were being tracked, the tracking devices were disabled and "wide receiver" ws shut down. fast and furuios guns were not tracked, the mexican govt was no involved, did not know anything about it. over 300 mexican nationals were murdered and 2 US federal agents were murdered.
Hundreds of innocent people were killed in the war on drugs during the Bush admin
Stop illegal gun sales to mexico. Don't track 'em. Stop 'em.
You want to ban certain opinions?
Conservative policies serve the 1% plutocrats, and have created all the injustice you refer to.
Progressive solutions are the only way to correct the injustice you allude to.
Not allowed? You don't like that anti conservative talk huh?
Public healthcare option.
90% tax rate for the 1%
money out of politics.
stronger corp regs
Free college
fogive working class debt
Allowed.? Just wanna know what you accept since you seem to speak for OWS.
Peace
A single OWS'er was videotaped pooping on a car. Therefore, all OW'ers are pooping on cars. Conservatives never poop on cars, only OWS'ers do. Therefore, conservatives and OWS'ers are complete opposites.
That is an opinion shared by some conservatives. Does it belong in honest discussion? No. There are progressives who share a similar way of thinking. And that kind of thinking is what we need to remove if we are going to make real progress in our common battle with corruption.
Nah. You don't remove that silly discussion. The marketplace of ideas will deal with that sort of silliness naturally.
It is obvious that 1 car pooper doesn't represent all of a group. When someone generalises a single persons acts and applies it to an entire group there is usually an ism in there. never poop on cars. We certainly have lotsa evidence that they poop on the 99%.
Banning speech is the wrong path. If it is silly (like your example) the community will deal with it naturally.
Peace besides who says conservatives
[Deleted]
Nah. States rights have been misused to oppress the African Americans who built this country. So that "right to secede has been removed"
Thats why why beat the crap out of the Confederate States of America. Remember those racist wacko traitors?
Sorry. This nation must stay together. In fact we must work towards creating a world government. United States of Earth! Bring more countries into a UN type structure so we can spread any good concepts that any peoples have successfully implemented.
One love. One world.
Thanks! for the info
My plan is to support OWS and to put out information that hopefully helps things move in a good direction. OWS is about revolution. I like that. (PM'd to VQkag2)
[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (778) 2 hours ago Money is not going to be chased out of politics and mandatory voting is not going to be introduced through the very political system you hope to reform. It's beyond reform. We'd have to reach a point where the mentality of the 99 would be repelled by and absolutely hostile to political advertisements. Not most of the 99 but virtually all of the 99. Without that you can b et that Congress and the various state legislatures will not introduce mandatory voting or eradicate money from politics. That would be expecting the pols to virtually kill themselves, or find honest work.
[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (3174) 2 hours ago Then I guess there is no hope. What should we do? wait until everyone is disatisfied? try to convince everyone? Whats your plan?
My plan is to support OWS and to put out information that hopefully helps things move in a good direction. OWS is about revolution. I like that. (PM'd to VQkag2)
There are 12 constitutional amendment already
PROPOSED IN CONGRESS
80% of Americans support this if we can replace half of the 50 tea potty obstructionist congressme,
we can pass one
but we cant, if we are too angry to vote against the koch brothers
Alright. We are definitely putting out info and more. y'know protests, petitions, letter writing, voting is also still happening. So then it's all covered.
Solidarity.
[Deleted]
Republicans are happy to give excuses to Obama
Perhaps you do not understand the Senate rules -
Without going into extensive legalities,
a Senate "majority" needed to get things done is 60
Obama has never had 60 Democrats in the Senate
[Deleted]
PLEASE LOOK THIS UP! I'm not talking about D responsibility or the past SPECIFICALLY-Wikipedia If ONE senator wants to filibuster - and stop a bill-
In the United States Senate, a three-fifths majority is required to bring out a vote of cloture, to end a filibuster.
So if a bill is signed by 55 Senators and one senator wants to filibuster, 60 are required to vote for "cloture" to shut down the filibuster. This issue is more complicated than I state aboue, but PLEASE learn about why Obama could not get done what he wanted to get done.
And - Corium - no insult intended - if someone as smart as you does not know this, imagine the tens of millions of lemmings who also dont know this and blame the Democrats & Obama for not getting things done. And you know McConnel's obstructionist declaration
Yeah, they seem to gloss over that fact repeatedly.
[Deleted]
Heh heh heh.
That movie reference rings a bell for some reason.
Warning.....Troll food ahead.....Warning......Troll Post..........Warning.....Warning.....Warning..........
The Repubs impeached clinton and he still got things done. Obama just sucks at his job.
and what percentage of Rs in the House, under Clinton, were under the thumb of grover? And how many billionaires tried to stop Clinton?
what about Obama in 2008 to 2010? They had a democrat majority.
oh woops... I forgot you're extremely Obama biased.
Obama won in the 2008 primaries due to money in politics and biased news coverage. Why else would democrats vote for someone who supported Bush era policies like the "patriot" act and also wanted to increase a war? Instead of voting for the only democrat running that tried to impeach Bush. MONEY IN POLITICS has infected both sides. I will agree it has hit one side, the R's, much harder... but it has hit both sides nonetheless and we saw that in 1999 when congress passed the financial modernization act and repealed Glass Steagall.
There is no such thing as the "Democrat" party, but rush told you otherwise
2008-2010 Senate did NOT have 60 Democrats
Is the Democratic Party perfect?
of course not
But they are the party that stands for women's rights
Do you?
I love you Obama supporters on this OWS site... you always assume if someone doesn't support Barack Obama that they must support the republican party. That's like saying an anarchist is the same as Rush Limbaugh.
I can support women's rights and not vote for Barack or Romney. I can even be more pro-women's rights and vote for Jill Stein in the Green Party.
I also support not bombing countries. Which is why I do not support warmongers like Obama or Romney.
Do you want to end the wars? Or do you support covert bombing operations in multiple nations and clamoring about supposed WMD's in other countries? Do you support the patriot act and spying on Americans? Do you support deregulating Wall Street like in the supposed republican JOBS acts that Obama happily signed? Do you support bailing out a fraudulent financial system? Do you support the inflation created by the federal reserve? Do you support the trillions in bailouts the fed has given to the fraudulent banks?
And the Green party will win the White House when ?
As soon as people stop voting for frauds that support the above agenda I listed. As soon as people stop letting themselves get swindled by media biased coverage and money in politics.
As soon as the moon is made of green cheese
I bet that's how people felt about women's rights back in the day. But they didn't give up. In fact they kept trying and after many years they got a better system that allowed more freedom, like the right to vote.
But if you want to be a pessimist that thinks change isn't possible and you just want to support the status quo... that's your choice.
But those people maneuvered the 2 party system to get that change for womens rights. They didn't get everything. They made progress.
We must change this 2 party system! 1st thing money out of politics. But we must deal with the reality in front of us. Attempt to force change within while also trying to recreate from outside.
It's the only way.
Peace
We need a new system. The highest court has said money is speech. This system is now fucked until that is over turned. Money in politics is going to take a new role. You can't co-opt a president that's already co-opted by Goldman Sachs.
2016 might show more promise. Keep pushing for a co-opt... I'm not telling you to not do that. I'm just not going to vote for anyone with a violent foreign policy. That's my plan to co-opt. If the D's want my vote, they cannot support war and bombs as a foreign policy. Until then my support goes for those with a plan for peace.
I can't give up, or wait 'till 2016. I won't encourage the progressives on this site to give up their right to vote.
There are several movements to address the obscene laws that allow all this corrupting money in politics. It is the 1st thing we must change. It will take years. We can't wait to start in 2016. Vote and make your disgust known to your representatives about the money situation.
Change will come maybe slowly. but not at all if we wait until 2016.
Peace
If you want peace stop supporting Warmongers.
Stop saying peace. You are not voting for peace. You are voting for bombs in countries.
You are clearly an unreasonable partisan. We disagree.
Stop drone attacks, End NDAA.
elect progressives, Vote out conservative plutocrat tools
I have not ignored the drone attacks. that accusation is incorrect and you know it. I am well aware that we have killed thousands of people. I am against the drone attacks. I have protested and carried signs, I have signed petitions. I have stated it here.
Our disagreement is YOUR lack of specific complaints against House repubs for not holding hearings against the drone attacks. You give them a pass. I point it out. You attack me with vulgar, hostile insults.
You do realize that is a clear sign that I have hit a nerve right? Get a grip.
We agree the drone attacks are bad. We disagree on the repubs inaction. I am against it, you give it a pass. So I guess you support the repubs.
Kucinich, I checked his record. He pretty much votes with dems. In fact I noticed on May 18th he voted with Dems to repeal your repubs NDAA. But your repubs defeated the dems (Kucinich) repeal. How come you don't complain about that.?
Give the dems credit and attack the repubs. They and their conservative policies are at the center of our problems.
Please refrain from the vulgar, hostile insults.
You've stated several times that the number of countries Obama has bombed is not relevant to you. That is ignorant. It's not hostile for me to say that and it is not vulgar either. Stop exaggerating and stop trying to make yourself look like a victim because you support a person bombing foreign countries. The innocent people being bombed are the victims.
You're flip flopping.
I attack both. But currently Obama is authorizing drone strikes because there is not a republican president. I cannot criticize a republican president because we do not have one right now. I can criticize repubs in congress and I do that often. They support what Obama is doing actually, they think he should do it "better" whatever the fuck that means.
Republicans love bombing foreign countries. I do not support that at all. In fact it's been my entire argument that bombing foreign countries the way the government has been is absolutely wrong and is creating problems.
Once again I laugh at you for calling me a republican especially when I post Dennis Kucinich press releases all the time.
I do agree with dems on a lot of issues. But on war Obama is a fucking hypocrite and he's bombing the fuck out of foreign countries. And that is wrong and it's something Dennis Kucinich speaks against all the time. Check out his website. He has about 10 press releases posted on how illegal these bombings are.
Obama and Romney even agree on Iran. Do you agree with Romney on Iran? Probably not. I don't
insults=weak arguments.
Threatening me crosses a certain line hc!
You haven't addressed the facts I listed that betray your partisan republican leanings. And you have become unhinged so I guess I'm correct.
I am anti war. I am encouraged by Pres Obamas progress at ratcheting down the fear mongering of your boy Bush and the "endless war on terror" rhetoric your repubs use to get NDAA, Patriot act and allow drone attacks.
I am against drone attacks and I know our current military use is an improvement over your repub "doctrine of overwhelming force".
I encourage constant protest/pressure against all pols who support the atmosphere of war and the acts of war.
Please refrain from threatening and insulting me.
Peace
insults=weak arguments.
I don't know how many countries America has bombed during President Obama term. I listed 4 I think. And I've stated that the number is not relevant to me. The important issues i have listed.
You don't address the facts I listed because you can't admit you give repubs a pass. It's ok. I get it. You want people to believe you are an anarchist who dislikes Repubs equally. Except that you criticize Pres Obama unfairly, and you never complain about repub failures on drone attacks, or patriot act, or NDAA.
Sorry. We disagree.
Stop Drone attacks, repeal patriot act, ndaa.
PEACE
How is war and bombing foreign countries not important to you?
That is ignorant to the true definition of the word. It's not an insult. You are literally ignoring it.
repubs are indeed a massive fucking problem. I've stated this several times. I'm just not ignorant enough to think that Obama isn't bombing the shit out of other countries. There is sufficient evidence that Obama has signed off on operations and bombs that are indeed war crimes. You are choosing to ignore that because you are blinded by your hate for republicans.
Even Dennis Kucinich says these bombs are unacceptable and illegal. He's a democrat. A democrat I fully support and get a lot of information from.
". I listed 4 I think. And I've stated that the number is not relevant to me"
You've also stated you are concerned with 100's of deaths overseas.
You are a disgusting troll, and I would bitch slap the warloving disease out of your head if I could.
Trevor,
I believe you are partisan, and I believe you give repubs a pass on their inaction in trying to stop the drone bombings. If your gonna simply make the drone bombings an issue that starts and ends with Pres Obama, then your partisan.
You do not acknowledge the progress Pres Obama has made in the useof military. you equate our current limited, transparent, targeted military use with sending 1/2 a million troops to invade countries! that is unfair and betrays your partisanship.
You do not acknowledge that the House Dems attempted to repeal NDAA and therepubs defeated it. That is given repubs a pass! That is why I say you are partisan republican.
Pres Obama shut down secret CIA prisons, stopped torture, stated that water boarding is torture, Signed the order to shut gitmo. Repubs have prevented closing gitmo. no complaints from you another pass. partisan repub!
Pres Obama prevented use of NDAA with his signing statement, refused to appeal the courts striking down of it. no credit from you. Partisan republican!
Repubs have been putting massive pressure on the Pres to attack Iran. He has successfully resisted. nothing about that. Partisan republican.
Pres Obama is making progress it is up to us to protest and force him the rest of the way. Support progress, agitate for continued progress.
Stop drone bombing. repeal conservative patriot act.
Peace
You are a fool. And it's more and more hilarious every time you call me a republican.
HOW MANY COUNTRIES HAS OBAMA BOMBED? How many times has Obama supported the patriot act?
Fuck Romney! we agree on that. But both of these men are a product of money in politics.
I met a girlfriend - a triscuit. She said, a triscuit - a biscuit. Ice cream, soda pop, vanilla on the top. Ooh, Shelly's out, walking down the street, ten times a week. I read it. I said it. I stole my momma's credit. I'm cool. I'm hot. Sock me in the stomach three more times.
The number of countries is not relevant to me.
What matters is have we been invited in. We have.
What matters is are we carpet bombing like your republicans. We're not
What matters is have we sent an army in to invade We ain't
I am against the drone bombings. But this tactic is far and away better than your boy Bush's "doctrine of overwhelming force"
Our current use of the military represents progress. Pres Obama will improve our use of the military further if we can support his efforts at limiting military action.
We should also continue pressuring all pols to stop the drone bombings. House Repubs could hold hearings to attempt ending these drone bombings. They don't. Why don't you complain about that?. Your repubs get a pass? Why.
We should support President Obama efforts at resisting the right wing war mongers pressure to invade Iran.
We should support Pres Obama efforts to undo the atmosphere of fear and endless war against terror. That is required to change our war footing.
Peace
The number of countries the president is bombing where people are dying is not relevant to you? That's ridiculous.
This is exactly why I say you do not support peace. You support war.
And we've been invited in? You know nothing of truth or current events when it comes to who we are bombing. You're probably referring to Pakistan who asked us to stop a while ago.
Pakistani Objection to U.S. Drones puts ‘Nations at War’
http://kucinich.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=301624
but whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your support for warmongers I guess. .....
How many countries has Obama bombed since he's been in Office? Don't deflect. Answer the question or don't reply.
WE SHOULD STOP SUPPORTING WARMONGERS. ALL OF THEM. GET THEM ALL OUT. Don't let these warmongers fulfill their oil prophecies and take out the rest on that list of 7 countries.
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war
Ok but Pres Obama has NOT invaded Iran right? I certainly don't like the beating of war drums but I also recognize that the real warmongers are disgusted with Pres Obama because he has resisted their pressure to attack Iran.
Pres Obama hasn't sent 1/2 a million troops to any country. He has resisted the right wing war mongers. Just like Pres Clinton did. (Just because Pres Clinton use war rhetoric isn't the same as Bush 1/2 a mlllion invasion force)
I'm against drone attacks. I recognize our current militaryuse DOES represent progress. With the right pressure and support Pres Obama will make more progress.
Peace
How many countries has Obama bombed?
Obama not being Bush doesn't mean he isn't a warmonger. He's bombed more countries than Bush. Death toll might be lower than under Bush... BUT IT'S STILL NOT OKAY
List of 7 countries from 2007 -Which ones have been crossed off the list since then and which places are the talk of the town? Posted 5 years ago - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ARihMrxdjU
It is inappropriate for you to tell me to "stop saying peace" I hope you don't believe you have some authority over me.
I am anti war. not a pacifist. but anti war. I am against the drone assassinations, I also recognize they are an improvement over 1/2 a million troops invading a country like repub "doctrine of overwhelming force"
I support active protest, pressure, agitation against any foreign policy action I disagree with. I won't retreat from the political battle, or surrender the political arena to the conservatives war mongers who proudly serve the 1% plutocrats.
I support a progressive agenda and I believe we must attempt to get it (1st money out of politics) passed. Can't do that if I curl up and retreat until 2016.
Agitate for direct democracy. Elect progressives. Pressure all pols to get money out of politics.
Peace, love, & understandin' (whasso funny 'bout it?)
Do you or do you not plan on supporting someone that will be bombing several countries in 2013?
That is why I tell you that you do not support peace. War is not peace. Claiming less war than Bush is not peace. War is war.
List of 7 countries from 2007
Which ones have been crossed off the list since then and which places are the talk of the town?
Posted 5 years ago - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ARihMrxdjU
It's taken much longer than 5 years. Iran is their prize in the center
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. ... for the sake of protecting our friends and allies, the United States will lead a mighty coalition of freedom-loving nations and disarm Saddam Hussein." George W Bush
President Obama stated on January 24, 2012, "Let there be no doubt: America is determined to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, and I will take no options off the table to achieve that goal."
U.S. policy toward Iran must begin with an understanding on Iran’s part that a military option to deal with their nuclear program remains on the table. - Mitt Romney
"The Price Is Worth It" - Madeline Albright - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo
HR 4310 prepares for war with Iran. Sections 1221 and 1222.
I am not ignorant about the drone bombings. I am fully aware of them Your accusation is not accurate. That I find the number of countries irrelevant is not about ignorance. It's about a well thought opinion. I'm against drone bombings whether it is 1 country or 7.
The number is not relevant. I hold your republicans responsible! they have created the emdless war on terror atmosphere. They have pressured all pols to be militaristic. They have pushed the country right, and they have been the fear mongerers. Finally your House repubs have neglected to hold the necessary hearings to end the drone bombings.
Your republicans also have continued to pressure Pres Obama to invade Iran. I'm happy to recognize Pres Obamas success at resisting the right wing war mongers on that.
Your repubs also defeated Kucinich (who you claim to support) when he voted to repeal the repub ndaa offense.
Please refrain from the hostile, vulgar insults.
You should be aware of every country our government is bombing. That is the end of it.
You should pay attention to every country that our government is bombing. It's kind of important. But that's just my well thought out opinion.
Later. This thread is long enough. Reread all of my previous comments if you have anything else to say about how you are voting for bombs in foreign countries.
I'm against drone bombings. I know it represents progress from your republican doctrine of overwhelming force.
I support constant protest/pressure against drone bombings. And I know Pres Obama will continue the progress that your republicans would never do.
Peace
You're deflecting. How many countries has Obama bombed? How many from that list of 7 countries from 2007 also?
Being anti-war is not a GOP agenda. You calling me a republican is just idiotic.
Are anarchists republicans in your opinion too? Are Marxists republicans too? Is the green party republican too?
Nothing I've mentioned is even remotely close to a GOP agenda.
Speaking out against the use of Black Water under Bush and Obama is not a republican agenda.
Speaking out against bombing nations that did not attack us is not a GOP agenda.
You are an idiot if you think being anti-war is republican doctrine.
I've found that some people are totally blinded by their party loyalty. They refuse to see the corruption within their own group and would rather continue to believe a pleasant fantasy than a brutal truth.
The reality of truth is so painful, when confronted by it's grotesque features, that they can't face it. That the lie they have been embracing for decades, is a sham and everything they invested in it was a complete and total loss.
And so they continue believing a lie, and continue to be trapped in it's iron bars that prevent the light of reason from ever entering. What a sad and miserable state they choose, preferring the false comfort of convenient lies over the splendid dignity of righteous truth.
For sure!
I'm voting to end the wars. I refuse to vote for someone that wants to continue Bush's war on terror. I will never vote for a pro-war candidate again. Anyone trying to get me to do otherwise is just a warmonger in my eyes.
Replacing troops with drone strikes is not ending war. Replacing troops with Black Water is not ending war.
On the war in Afghanistan - video from 2010 - "If Afghanistan can become the central Asian 'roundabout,' to use President Karzai's term, to where it can be the new Silk Road, think of the implications for that, recalling that, of course, Afghanistan is blessed with the presence of what are trillions, with an 'S' on the end, trillions of dollars worth of minerals if, and only if, you can get the extractive technology, the human capital operated, the lines of communication to enable you to get it out of the country and all the rest of that. Very big 'if.' And of course, there's a foundation of security that would be necessary on, on which to build all of that. But, again, the prospects are very significant if you can achieve objectives." -- Gen. David Petraeus, Meet the Press, Sunday, August 15th, 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvQJcMmPmsY&feature=share
I thought his job is to suck.Is that not what Golman ordered?
[Removed]
Randi Rhodes Daily News | http://www.randirhodes.com/main.html
Aug 2, 2012
Yesterday was Chick-fil-A Anti-Gay Day! Sorry if you missed it. You’ll just have to spend today being intolerant on your own. Technically, it was Chick-fil-A Appreciation Day, but what the people who showed up really appreciated was just how intolerant Chick-fil-A President Dan Cathy is of gay people. I don’t know if a boycott of Chick-fil-A would work. Have you ever noticed how many Tea Party types are morbidly obese? I think Chick-fil-A could thrive on their business alone. For every 10 people who refuse to eat at Chick-fil-A, they can just have one Tea Party person eat 10 times as much from Chick-fil-A. I’m sure there will be plenty of willing volunteers.
Despite yesterday’s show of support from homophobic cholesterol addicts, the Chick-fil-A brand has been damaged... not as much as their customers’ arteries, but still pretty bad. Pretty soon, Chick-fil-A will be totally dependent on a very small but fanatically devoted following—exactly like the Republican Party is. Heck, they’re exactly the same followers! Most Chick-fil-A franchises are in the South. That’s good for them. If you’re depending on having a customer base that’s motivated by intolerance, you’re a lot better off in states where Newt Gingrich did well in the primary.
Yesterday a whole range of Affordable Care Act healthcare provisions for women started to kick in. To Republicans... that’s a day that will live in infamy. GOP Representative Mike Kelly (R-PA) compared the new women’s healthcare provisions to Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Kelly listed off Pearl Harbor Day and 9/11 and said “remember August 1, 2012 — the attack on our religious freedom. That is a date that will live in infamy, along with those other dates.” Sorry Mike, but I don’t think the History Channel will be putting together a retrospective for this one.
Loony GOP Rep. Steven King (R-IA) is making birther statements about Obama being born in Kenya. The shocking thing is that this is the least crazy thing Steven King has said in recent days. Steve has been praising dog fighting and babbling about how it’s legal to impregnate 13-year olds in this country. Having him babble about the President being from Kenya is actually a step forward.
Romney makes VP pick to solidify base Chick Fillet
Wonder if Chick Fil A is an ALEC member??
We know who they contribute to.
[ D = R ] = THE TRUTH ABOUT OUR TWO PARTY TYRANNY
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/05/18/americans_have_3_choices_bushbamney_third-party_or_nobody
Does anybody draw? I'm a "Harvey Pekar" political cartoonist, need illustrator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTbLslkIR2k&feature=player_embedded
You may not see what the most of us see and that is the hand that feeds is giving money to both of them. Both parties are the same in the corruptness. similarities in policy making are there but are not dead on.
as some one who is against the corrupt of the world i am against the tyranny of both parties that is why they are the same.
a man has two hands - so does a monkey
a man has language - so does a monkey
a man can use tools - so does a monkey
a man has a brain - so does a monkey
a man is different from a monkey
no matter how many similarities there are
A monkey obediently submits to the dominant monkey. A man obediently submits to the party leader. The monkey can only obey, the man has a choice.
A hand that feeds is a metaphor "A metaphor is a literary figure of speech that describes a subject by asserting that it is, on some point of comparison, the same as another otherwise unrelated object."
Its a metaphor for the symbol of money the hand that feeds is the money and you do not bite the hand that feeds because it doesn't give you anymore money. Dem and Rep both do the same on this issue whether you choose to acknowledge this fact is pointless.
Which if your actually read into what OWS was about getting money out of politics of either side but your a smart man and have been here awhile so you should know that we dont care about political parties we care about the money that is being dumped into government to force us the people to do things we do not wish to do.
so enough with this political batter its actually hurting the movement not helping.
You Bensdad are responsible for destroying the progress of this movement by posting this garbage on here. There is plenty of other sites that you can do this on.
[Removed]
How much money. Does you whore self get from the DNC to post this propaganda?
bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . troll . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha TROLL BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . ha BWA hahaha . . . bwa ha ha ha ha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha TROLL BWA hahaha . . . hahaha ….. .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha… ..TR0LL HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . TROLL bwa hahahaha . *… . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE…*……………….. BWA hahaha . . . bwa ha ha ha ha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . … . hahaha HE HE HE BWA hahaha . . . troll ….. .bwa hahahaha . TROLL. . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . bwa hahahaha . . . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . . . hahaha . .bwa hahahaha . …….. . hahaha HEHEHE BWA hahaha . .troll
Pro-Obama propaganda on an OWS website = BS
Let's not forget that both sides of congress deregulated Wall Street in 1999 by repealing glass steagall
Let's not forget that both sides of congress voted yes on the war in Iraq.
Let's not forget that Obama signed for the republican JOBS act that didn't create a single job and repealed regulations put in place after the ENRON scandal.
He also joined republicans by signing the patriot act several times.
And his administration covered up torture photos that could have been used to incriminate Bush.
And he's bombed more countries than Bush.
Fuck Mitt Romney and Fuck Obama... they're both payed for by Goldman Sachs.
The few good things are just to cover for all the BULLSHIT
Even Bush signed the GI bill... still a terrible president.
So lots of Anti Obama crap. One Pro Bush item. Nothing positive on Obama! And nothing Negative about Bush.
Seems pretty obvious where you stand.
But ok. You don't want us to Vote for Obama I get it. What do think we should do to fix our problems!
No suggestions? Just partisan attacks on the president.?
Peace
Lulz nothing negative about Bush? Did you miss the part where I said he was a terrible president and that he is responsible for torture?
Don't try to distort my words.
I want people to stop voting for who the money wants. In 2008 money in politics convinced millions of democrats that a pro-war and pro-patriot act democrat was a better option than the one democrat running that actually tried to impeach Bush for his crimes.
In 2012 money in politics got republicans to support a 1% tool like Romney.
I want people to vote for those that work for the people and not special interests and the MIC. Believe it or not there is more than 2 choices for president. The leading 2 are the wrong direction.
Do some research on money in politics.
PEACE
Oh yeah "still a terrible president" balances things out. Thats a fuckin joke. You ain't kiddin anyone. maybe if you acknowledged that our problems have their roots in conservative policies. But you never state that.
Your just another silly "parties are the same " nutjob who level anti dem partisan crap and throw in a little "fuck the repubs" in to claim balance. BS
LMFAO.
Who do you want people to vote for.? What policies should we change.? What policies should we implement?
Clouded glasses indeed. I see better than you want!
Peace
And maybe if you partisan folk understood that our problems have roots in Empire's imperialist policies we could start having honest discussions. There are brilliant political theorists who have taken the time to write objective analysis' of our country. One such man is Sheldon Wolin, professor emeritus of politics at Princeton University.
Professor Sheldon Wolin wrote: "What is democracy doing bearing the stigma of empire? Recall that the United States was born in a revolution against imperial power. Recall as well, however, that the Founders favored a republic over a democracy because the latter could not be accommodated to an "enlarged sphere," to a huge geographical expanse. And recall that the American citizenry has a long history of being complicit in the country's imperial ventures. The imperial impulse is not a tic afflicting only the few. The difference may be that, unlike, say, the Roman and British empires, the American empire is repressed in the national ideology.
"Virtually from the beginning of the nation the making of the American citizen was influenced, even shaped by, the making of an American imperium. The nineteenth-century expansion of the country to the west and southwest was achieved by military victories over various Indian nations and Mexico. It brought new opportunities for enterprise, exploitation, and ownership. It made conquest and violence familiar, part of everyday experience.”
He continues... "It makes no sense to ask how the democratic citizen could "participate" substantively in imperial politics; hence it is not surprising that the subject of empire is taboo in electoral debates. No major politician or party has so much as publicly remarked on the existence of an American empire. Imperial power is not about restraint, and the consequences of empire are evident in domestic policies: in military expenditures, subsidies to globalizing corporations, mounting deficits, and the decimation of social programs and environmental safeguards."
If you'd like to start having honest discussions about our problems then maybe we should start talking about the systemic issues, and use our wise and brilliant intellectuals to help guide us through this mess, rather than continuing to listen to the plethora of partisan hacks who are blinded by their own ideology. I mean, look at you... you are basically foaming at the mouth and verbally attacking people when they write anything that makes your team look bad - even the things that are the complete truth. It's sad. Find a way to be more objective and look at the systemic issues first, then come back and apologize for being a rabid guard dog for your team.
So your saying I am engaging in dishonest discussion? I disagree!
Your saying I'm foaming at the mouth? Nope. A rabid dog? Again you are mistaken. But like most you have resorted to name calling. For me that means you have lost the discussion.
I agree with the professors comment that you cut and pasted. So what.?
YOUR comments are simply offemsive. No substance. You haven't added to the intelligent discussion. Do you have any thoughts on the issues/policies that hurt the 99%, that benefit the 1% plutocrats. Which should we repeal? what should we implement?
Peace
Your own words, above and below, are enough to answer the first two questions. And imagine that... you disagree! And, my comment is only offensive to you because I'm calling you out... any person with an objective brain could understand that. But go ahead and continue to play the poor little ole victim. I'm not really impressed with your insult baiting tactic.
Whatever. We disagree! That much is clear.
Good luck to you.
Support OWS! Vote out conservative pro plutocrat politicians!
Peace
Yeah, whatever... go ahead and ignore your own words that prove you use logical fallacies (a form of dishonesty) when pushing your agenda. That much is clear.
I do support Occupy -- every time I show up to GAs and committee meetings. Make sure to remember to vote out the pro-Empire politicians too, and don't forget that many of them where the label Democrat.
So you are anti democrat?
I'm anti-empire, and anti-imperialist... and anti-corporate democratic and republican party. I'm a true democrat in that I believe real democracy is the answer. Until people can understand that this country is NOT a democracy, or a Republic, but an Empire then we will go nowhere. The last sentence is backed up by some of our most brilliant political sages that are alive today.
But go ahead and continue to run on the the hamster wheel of illusion... maybe just re-consider your choice of using logical fallacies when arguing with those who choose to look at the systemic issues of empire in a logical and objective way.
Agreed, both the L and R Doors lead to an empires door. This is why we need to devolve the world banks from privet sector to public sector. Transparency is key, and there is none.
Yeah yeah yeah. I'm against the system too. the party duopoly. the Repub conserv support for plutocrat policies, and the dems betrayal of progressive principles.
I also want to recreate the govt from the bottom up with horizontal real direct democracy. I agree all the great sages. Anarchy!!! Blah blah blah.
I'm with you. I've marched. confronted the police. and will do so again. But I won't surrender more power to repubs. And I won't stop pressuring all pols (especially Dems) to pass progressive policies.
I certainly won't start telling people they aren't allowed to express their opinions. And I won't seek to silence or ban anyone. That is for fscists. no? The great sages aren't fascists are they?
Support OWS. Vote out anti immigrant politicians
"I certainly won't start telling people they aren't allowed to express their opinions. And I won't seek to silence or ban anyone. That is for fscists. no? The great sages aren't fascists are they?"
Nobody suggested otherwise... this is another a logical fallacy - straw man argument.
All you've done is try to silence me. You put me down as some empire supporter because I don't agree with you.
Open your mind. embrace your fellow man. Let the love wash over you. Put aside your anger and hostility. What are you afraid of?. I think it was a great sage who said.
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hatred leads to suffering."
I think that was the professor emeritus of Litenup University.
Peace, Love, & Understanding.! (whasso funny 'bout it?)
I've done two things here: highlight your constant use of logical fallacies, and promote the idea that the US Empire and its imperialist policies are one the root problems we are facing today, and the fact that both the democrats and republicans have swore allegiance to the very thing that is creating so many of the problems in this country. And I plugged a credible and authoritative source to back this up. But you don't want to hear it, and want to continue using logical fallacies, and then have stooped so incredibly low by trying to discredit and undermine one of the most brilliant political theorists of our day.
And, what do you know? You used more logical fallacies in this last post too...
"Do you have any thoughts on the issues/policies that hurt the 99%"
I mentioned the repeal of glass steagall which was passed with bipartisan support.
All you did was call me a conservative.
So I ask you - "Do you have any thoughts on the issues/policies that hurt the 99%??"
Because I've been bringing them up.
I also mentioned the Iraq war and the republican JOBS act that didn't create a single job and only further deregulated Wall Street. Do you want to talk about those or just continue to call me a secret republican?
repeal of Glass steagall was conservative policy passed with only some dems support.
dems betray the progressives because progressives have gotten demoralized, and apathetic. A strong growing progressive movement is the prescription for getting dems back from the right.
The war/foreign policy of Pres Obama is light years better than Neocon repub policy. We haven't sent 1/2 a million troops into any countries last time I checked. Thats real progress!
You've only mentioned failures of Pres Obama, Repubs and the conservative policies they proudly trumpet are at the root of our problems.
The Repub Jobs act IS useless. We need the Pres jobs act that the repubs have watered down (transportation bill) or refused to pass Green tech jobs program.
We must support the progressive policies that will help the 99%.
Raise taxes on the wealthy as Pres Obama and dems are pushing. Cut taxes for middle class (as repubs are holding hostage unless wealthy get cuts)
Vote out pro Norquist, anti Buffet rule politcian.
Peace
You said
"dems betray the progressives because progressives have gotten demoralized, and apathetic. A strong growing progressive movement is the prescription for getting dems back from the right."
No they betray them because of money in politics. This is very apparent as the vote for the GLB was heavily lobbied for.
The war policy of Obama being "light years better than Neocon repub policy" does not make anything Obama has done in regards to supporting the patriot act or bombing numerous nations acceptable or legal. They have yet to provide the legal authority for the targeted killing program which is why the ACLU has filed a lawsuit demanding the information.. So far the case keeps getting pushed back because of abuse of power.
You said "The Repub JOBS act IS useless." I 100% agree with that. It's bogus and shows exactly how big of frauds the repubs are. Should also make you wonder why there was no VETO. Stimulus is the way to go. I agree with that too.
Norquist is a clown and doesn't understand how government works. Anyone who agrees with him needs to go. I agree there too.
See how much better things go when we talk policy?
Progressive pols certainly betray their principles for 1% money. I agree. but I do not give people a pass. A strong active movement is required to get progressive policies passed.
I want publicly funded campaigns and no contributions. but people can and should protest and agitate for change. There is nothing people can't do.
I support ACLU lawsuits (against NDAA, etc) In fact I know this is the proper approach to undo these conservative policies. the progressive ACLU is acting for the people! the people can do anything!
But like the ACLU I recognize that this Pres has made progress on all these issues in the face of massive plutocratic resistance. We face the most powerful evil force that the world has ever seen in these conservative plutocrats. That this Pres and progressive people have made the minimal progress we have is truly amazing.
Pres Obama drone assassinations (I'm against) or foreign policy choices may not be acceptable or legal. But it still represents an improvement.in the face of massive conservative plutocratic efforts to go the way of Bush. We have to recognize that. While still protesting and sueing. We should always remember that the conservatives would be doing a great deal more illegal, unacceptable. military actions. And will again if they gain power again.
Change is up to us. Not one President. Vote out pro conservative plutocrat policy Politicians
Peace
I don't even think we should call them conservatives. Let's call them what they are... hired goons.
I believe people should not forget that the political spectrum has not been rescinded in America.
Conservative policy created the plutocratic takeover of our govt/country and we must call it what it is or uninformed voters may be fooled further.
Stating that progressive policies are the solution and conservative policies benefit the 1% plutocrats is critical if we are to educate/inform the people.
Support OWS. Vote out conservative pro 1% plutocrat politicians.
hired goons? SEIU
For your consideration.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/of-the-people-by-the-people-for-the-people-an-open/
Cool. thanks
Anytime.
Okay Obama 2012 campaign guy.
What I find funny is people on an OWS site preaching for the current system.
If you don't like Romney and you don't like Obama... that means you're a nut job? You're an idiot.
Get real VQ.
And you have nothing of substance. Just name calling and the schoolyard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney!!!!
Progressives are inclusive and spread love.
Conservatives are selfish, greedy, intolerant, who resort to name calling bullying because there arguments are selfish and greedy.
Your tactics betray your political persuasions.
Just tryin to stay real. Bully boy.
Peace
says the guy calling anyone who doesn't support Obama a nut job.
I agree with you about conservatives. I am not a conservative. It just so happens I also don't support Obama because of his terrible foreign policy. Even the ACLU agrees with me that Obama has a terrible foreign policy. Anthony Romero called it disgusting.
I ain't called anyone a nutjub. I avoid the insults and vulgarity that is indicative of weak empty arguments.
I thought ACLU praised the President for:
Ending torture,
Calling water boarding torture.
Ending secret prisons.
Ending extraordinary rendition
Attempted to close Gitmo (signed order, repubs in congress refused to fund)
Progress for LGBT rights
Ending Bush;s illegal Iraqi oil war.
Are you talkin about the drone assassinations? Yeah I'm against that also. we'll get there. Gotta keep protesting! Recognize (like the ACLU) all the progress Pres Obama has made and give him support.
Acknowledge that the real problem with NDAA ( House dems tried to repeal in May, repubs defeatedrepeal) which has been struck down by left wing brooklyn judge (thank you ACLU), and patriot act, and warrentless wiretap is the fear mongering, endless war on terror that Bush and the repubs created when they exploited the 9/11 attacks.
That atmosphere is the 1st thing that has to change! An President Obama has begun that slow effort by refusing to use the war on terror, by eliminating the ridiculous color coded threat level.
Gotta recognize all these little efforts at progress (that repubs would never do) that Presi Obama has achieved in the face of Repub obstruction.
Hang in there. Be patient. He can't just hit a switch and undo what the neocons have done over the previous 10 years, but he has begun.
Peace
The ACLU has filed a lawsuit demanding Obama release torture evidence.
ACLU files law suit against the Obama administration for war crimes... not the first time either.
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/al-aulaqi-v-obama
"I'm not disgusted at President Obama personally. It's President Obama's policies on civil liberties and national security issues I'm disgusted by." - ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero
http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0610/ACLU_chief_disgusted_with_Obama.html
"The Obama administration’s adoption of the stonewalling tactics and opaque policies of the Bush administration flies in the face of the president’s stated desire to restore the rule of law. ... when these photos do see the light of day, the outrage will focus not only on the commission of torture by the Bush administration but on the Obama administration's complicity in covering them up." - ACLU
http://www.aclu.org/2009/05/13/obama-administration-reverses-promise-to-release-torture-photos
They have much more on their website.
Also Obama has repeatedly supported the patriot act just as Bush did.
I can't support anyone with a violent and illegal foreign policy. Be the change. When i vote for warmongers I am voting for war. End of story.
Someone other than obama could have done the few positive things you mentioned and even more. But money in politics tricked everyone into voting for the Goldman Sachs candidate in 2008 instead of the 1 guy that tried to impeach Bush and is much more progressive than Obama by light years. dennis kucinich.
Kucinich will never be President, You can't be serious.
I support the ACLU lawsuits. That is the right approach. I will let that play out. Your ACLU quotes are kinda old but valid and worthy of consideration. However the ACLU has also praised Pres Obama for the things I mentioned.
The pictures and case for war crimes against Bush is less important to me than improving the lives of the 99%. And ending Bushs illegal wars (1 down, 1 almost done, No others started)
Seems to me releasing the torture pictures might make things worse because muslims will be offended.
All the policies regarding the threats to our constitutional rights (patriot act, warrentless wiretaps, NDAA) will change only when the atmosphere of fear, and endless war on terror ends. Pres Obama has begun to undo that but it cannot be done as quick as you want it. The right wing plutocrats have too much control. It will only change when people sue successfully and rise up and protest/agitate for demilitarization. It won't happen if repubs regain power. It may happen if we recognize and support the slow progress the dems have made.
Peace
What do you have against Kucinich? He's only been right about everything and has a flawless voting record.
Or do you mean he can't be president because of money in politics and lack of a large progressive movement?
you said "Seems to me releasing the torture pictures might make things worse because muslims will be offended." - I'd rather see someone punished for the crimes and I think the muslims would too. Letting the known torture go unpunished is much more offensive. I think the world would be happy to see Bush behind bars for war crimes.
you also said "All the policies regarding the threats to our constitutional rights (patriot act, warrentless wiretaps, NDAA) will change only when the atmosphere of fear, and endless war on terror ends. Pres Obama has begun to undo that..."
How has he begun to undo that when he has voted in favor of the patriot act again and again... and signed the NDAA? Do you know who wouldn't have done either of those things... Dennis Kucinich. Which is why his voting record has a big NO next to each of them. Like I mentioned before he was also the only guy in 2008 running for president that tried to impeach Bush. Where was Obama on that?
I think I agree with much of Kucinich's positions. I think the 2 party duopoly/plutocrat ctrl DOES preclude his possible election. His agenda is clearly against the plutocrat monied interests and so they would never allow it. Truth is we cannot achieve what we need within the system. In so far as "the system" we must ensure that conservatives get no more power, and get more Kucinich progressives elected, implement whatever progressive policies/repeal whatever conservative policies we can get by the plutocrats in power (not much I guess). While we work towards the real solution which is recreating a govt based on direct democracy.! He is also too old.
Torture pix/war crimes trial, There is already enough evidence, I thought Cheney and/or Rumsfeld were already indicted/charged. When the trials happen let the pix be forwarded to the world court. This issue is less important to me than correcting the conservative plutocrat policies that hurt the 99%. I'm with you though I support trials, I support releasing photos to world court. I'm focused on other issues.
Threats to Constitutional rights: (Kucinich will never be Pres! I'm sorry. The powers that be will never allow it. He is to radical) One day someone like him WILL be our leader whatever that leader is called.
undoing these threats will take years. The deep fear mongering is so pervasive, and so useful to the conservative plutocrat agenda that a slow progress is our best option (until we recreate the govt with some real direct democracy). The constant war, and atmosphere of endless war on terror will require a change in approach to international disputes. I want no war as an option! That can't happen overnight. I hope you don't believe it can.
1st we must stop the massive/overwhelming Bush/Powell doctrine. That is critical! Pres Obama has done that.
We must cut the military. Pres Obama has begun that. (not enough but it is progress)He will do more!
Stop using/spending money on mercenary forces. Pres Obama has begun that. He WILL end that.
Stop torture, do not claim waterboarding is acceptable technique, end extraordinary rendition, end secret prisons. Pres Obama has done this.
Work with Muslim countries (and other allies) with respect. Allow their govt choices to stand without the historical interference that has created so much strife for muslims and allows us to claim some war on terror. Pres Obama has done this.
NDAA, Patriot act, Warrentless wiretaps. Most difficult. Most disappointing. These threats will require that the people rise up. bring court cases. Protest, The plutocrat monied interests have so much control no one politician can undo this with out the people.
But ending the use of the "war on terror"rhetoric, and ending the color coded threat level rhetoric is a 1st small step. Which Pres Obama has begun. Really it is up to us.
All of these changes will require us to change the right wing mood of the country. We cannot stand on the side and snipe at one politician to do everything we want. We must recognize the progress. acknowledge who is working for what we want (however limited the success). Recognize who is standing in resistance (conservatives) at the behest of the plutocrats.
And protest, Agitate, for the real change that can only come when we recreate the govt/country with some form of direct democracy.
I hope that clarifies my positions. Please refrain from nasty offensive insults even if we disagree.
Peace
only a nut job would say "I don't care which one gets it"
oh no now both Obama 2012 campaign guys are harassing people and calling them nut jobs.
You 2 are hilarious. Do you hang out on weekends and harass people about supporting Obama too?
Sharing facts is cool... but going around and calling people names because they won't vote for Obama is just harassment. Obama would not approve.
Also I don't want either one of those men to "get in" ...
How's hchc doing anyway?
How are the people in Pakistan? I heard they've asked Obama to stop bombing them. What's the death toll of children over there? Or do kids qualify as militants now in the US government books?
Oh right. You dismiss that stuff because... of some odd reason
You're a hypocrite. You talked about warmongering under Bush yet you accuse anyone for speaking out against the wars under Obama as secret republicans. Just because it's not "as bad" in your eyes doesn't make it okay. In fact it's still wrong, illegal. and fucking terrible. It's bad on our image in the world and it's bad for the innocent that have died from it. All this is fostering more support for the "enemy" in other countries which is making the situation worse.
And as you have pointed out many times Romney will stop all the wars, right? I mean it's not like the last Republican didn't get into all this shit, no wait a minute that's exactly what happen, people listened to idoits like you and voted for Nader, and we got Bush and a bunch of wars, I remember now, so you figure we should do it again?
lol you're going to blame the guy that supports the 99% wanted free college and free healthcare again? I blame people voting for warmongers. I don't blame people voting for peace. Do you know what common sense is? A majority of voters are lacking.
Also Bush won due to fraud and the supreme court. Gore won the popular vote. Stop bringing up you're everything is Nader's fault bullshit theory.
Why are the wars still happening? Why has obama bombed even more countries than Bush? Why are warships currently surrounding Iran?
Romney will continue it all. Have you ever watched him speak?
We agree Romney is a fuck up warmonger. We disagree on Obama... that is why Obama is the focus of the argument.
How many US citizens has Obama and the CIA assassinated without charging them with a crime and without providing evidence? 3. That's why the ACLU has yet again filed a lawsuit over the matter.
These presidents are committing war crimes. I spoke out against Bush when he did it... and I'm not going to be a hypocrite now because propaganda brainwashes other people into thinking war is acceptable if a democrat does it.
I spoke out against Black Water when Bush used them... I'm going to speak against it under Obama as well.
Tell me again how Obama hasn't committed a war crime when the evidence is right in front of you?
there you go with that word blame as if blaming somebody would do something, this has nothing to do with blame it's just what happened, if we forget the past we repeat it and end up with more wars
Why do you work so hard for Romney's election then?
So you think our disagreeement is more important than doing something to help the country?
If we agree Romney would be worst why do you not join with me to help defeat him?
Are you really so egotisacal that our disagreement is more important than the country? That doesn't make sense, I think you just support Romney but won't tell us the truth.
RepobliCon MO is exactly that, "disagreement is more important than the country"!
It is their MO, the winning is everything to those ruled by their own egos, when we seek to elevate all of us, only then can we truly rise.
Damn it’s like the Dalai Lama just took over my keyboard.
In the Con Jihad what do the proven followers get? Forty v... ??? New Tax havens? Trees all the right height? Ira Glass back stage passes? 7-11 cookies? Country club memberships????
extended
defeating romney accomplishes nothing
allowing Romney to win through inaction does quite a bit I would think, unless of course you think things like CU are nothing much
"Inaction" is all that the PTB (powers that be) want!
TM and MH are useful idiots to the Cons!
let me know when brown people in foreign countries stop getting murdered.
You're voting for bombs and death and deals for Goldman Sachs. It's a fact.
Obama 2012 and Romney 2012 are propaganda brought to you by money in politics.
inaction is all that is required to stop dropping bombs
from your point of view I guess Bush did nothing, Romney will do nothing, there really is no point in even trying to do anything, I mean if you can find no (or not enough) difference between Obama and Romney I would think only someone very out of touch would not be able too, of course if you care little about wealth inequality and more about war I could see that, as I recall OWS was focused on wealth issues more so than war, I guess that would be a sort of "co-opting" where you shift the focus from wealth to war, it does seem based on that we do have some co-opter's maybe to the extend that OWS shifts in that direction it loses support, after all hard to get people riled up about stopping a war that ended 6 months ago or one that will end within another coulpe as long as peop[le support Obama, so given that the wars are already being brought to an end by Obama, the only way that gets screwed up is if Romney wins, but then we get back to you having trouble finding a difference
from my point of view, Sanders made a speech to blur the definition of war
I'm tired of these dummies, who drag us all down
It defeats 8 more years of exponential RW regression as seen on Bush-Cheney Years TV.
You can be naive, but why should we have to suffer for it?
write in NO WAR
I'm tired of these apologist
You are full of shit, Factsrfun. Nothing about that posting is pro-Romney and nothing suggests the poster is working for Romney. Being anti-Obama or anti-Democrat does NOT mean someone is pro-Romney or pro-Republican, so stop posting your counterrevolutionary perpetuate two-party tyranny crap!
so you believe one of these two will not be president next year? go ahead make your case if you have one, I'll be here waiting, but I don't expect to see one, you know your purpose here is help the GOP as does everyone else
I'm voting for the guy from Harvard
Lies, lies and more lies, Factsrfun. NOBODY in their right mind could read ANY of our posts or articles ANYWHERE and come away with the idea we're out to "help the GOP". Fuck the Democrats. Fuck the Republicans. Fuck Obama. Fuck Romney. Fuck Wedge Issues. Fuck Rigged Elections. Fuck Two-Party Tyranny. Fuck Partisan Posers. Fuck Pro-Regime Plants. Fuck Fair Weather Revolutionaries. Fuck Slacktivists. And FUCK YOU.
http://open.salon.com/blog/watchingfrogsboil/2012/05/18/americans_have_3_choices_bushbamney_third-party_or_nobody
Why doesn't Obama just put Congress on his kill list?
I wonder if that thought has not crossed his mind?
I think half of America would applaud a drone strike on Congress. I am so going to hell for saying that.
We all die - hell the world of torture for the sinner is a lie - hell by the definition in the bible is the land of the dead - by the bible definition death is the absence of life no consciousness no thought no awareness at all.
So the only torture of hell is man made and exists here in this life. A hell on earth.
Don't get the wrong impression, I don't believe in hell in the biblical sense at all.
Good - because that hell is not real. It is an invention to scare the masses into worship. Psychological warfare part of man made religion.
Fear is a great motivator. It is often abused by those in authority who want to control behavior.
FYI
http://occupywallst.org/forum/of-the-people-by-the-people-for-the-people-an-open/
Absolutely - like prostitution - a very ancient practice - a very ancient tool of power.