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Forum Post: Community

Posted 11 years ago on March 7, 2013, 11:21 a.m. EST by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The preferred economic system is free market capitalism. In theory it provides us with the things we want and need at the best prices and in the required quantities. There's little debate about that.

There's also little debate that we all need and/or want in common: food, clothing, shelter, medicine, energy, communications and transportation. The theory of capitalism rests on the belief that Finance [FIRE] in general and banks in particular facilitate the distribution of the goods and services we need and want in common. FIRE is capitalism. Capitalism is FIRE. Some may quibble with that. More will challenge anyone else's determination of what is a want and what is a need.

None whose heads are visible will challenge the fact that 21st Century Capitalism is concentrating wealth with the few and failing to adequately distribute the things we want and need to the majority of people who want and need them. The most stalwart defenders of Capitalism also refuse to allow our government to make up for the deficiencies of their concentration of wealth machine. That is: they won't allow anything to be done about the failure of Capitalism, because they are benefiting from it.

Until we get our heads into the open air and realize that an economy is about providing the things we want and need in common, our economy will continue to threaten rather than facilitate the existence of the majority of human beings. Common. Community. Think about it!



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[-] 4 points by Middleaged (5140) 11 years ago

So we have Capitalism with a bunch of other things that have to be separated out right?

1) Realpolitik - politics or diplomacy based primarily on power and on practical and material factors and considerations
2) Hegemony - Trying to influence all countries in the world
3) Exclusionism - Influence all Countries to accept our banking and capitalism and petitions for oil and natural resources, while excluding Socialism, Communism, Marxism selected through soveriegn democratic practices .... but we do except dictators if they play ball with us for natural resources. We will call in the Jackels and the CIA to create Regime Change if not.
4) Isn't our Capitalism a Marriage between Government & Corporations - isn't this Fascism in the USA. We deregulate for big corporations, give them subsidies and tax abatements ... while we create barriors for small businesses in the USA, small banks can't compete against TBTF Wall Street banks, small Farms are gone, Milk Farms are prosecuted for selling milk products other than milk to be pasturized, there are few mom & pop stores left to compete against the Walmarts and Giant Stores. In fact - won't Obama Care drive more small businesses out of the business? Ah, maybe not with fewer that some number of employees (30 employees?)
5) What Kind of Capitalism has higher cost of Living and Higher Cost of Business every two years or so? It is like you need to raise prices or expand your business to stay in business. There is no holding steady sales unless you want to take a lower Income/Salary. Higher Rents, higher Insurance, Higher taxes, Higher Utilities, higher employee costs/personnel costs ... it is always something going up isn't it???
6) And what is it with Military Wars overseas, so far away that the country can't ever hit us with a rocket, missile, or airplane if they had them. It has to be for Natural Resources to keep our US Way of Life and Way of Consumption going ... since we know our way of life is unsustainable. We use more stuff, generate more trash, and use more food and electricty that can possibly be realistic 50 or 100 years from now. So American (US) Capitalism is based on Debt & Consumption of Resources we don't have. Therefore we have to strategically take it, steal it, or win it from other countries. Or absorb those other countries into the USA. NAFTA, CAFTA, and the New American States including South America, the Carribean & Cuba.

So what are we talking here? It is not just Capitalism from an Economics book. We have a Mixed Economy including Social Programs and therefore Socialism with Capitalism. We have a Limited Republic not a pure democracy. It seems like in the Real World there is no pure Ideology or pure system.

Just like Free Markets could not exist without the structure of Regulations that make them work. Rules and Laws make the US Markets work and put Trust into the Use of these markets and the contracts that come out of the Markets. Fraud is always a Risk in Markets, but so far financial managers & Bankers Trust the markets risk of fraud is low.

**What kind of a Market or Capitalism is it when many people see Naked Short Selling, High Speed Computer Trades, Algo Trading, unregulated financial Products, unreliable Ratings Agencies, unreliable Independent Audit Agencies, AAA Rated Junk, Many Off Shore Corporations avoiding tax responsiblities, many Shell Companies, Many Account Control Frauds Listed in Wikipedia, and Reluctance of Foreign Investors to buy US Financial Products....

The only lesson is that there are many financial players with money to invests who are willing to continue to invest in the US Markets inpreference to other markets. Business goes on, but financial Reform does not. Like US Politics nothing gets Fixed. We see this in history: The Vatican and Catholic Church is all about Power and not about Reform, Transparency, or the feelings of the community. And we see this in China which is all about Power not about Reform, Transparency, or feelings. But at least China is investing in Infrastructure and Investing in their Economy.

If TBTF Banks won't invest in Small Businesses and if the Federal Government won't Invest in Infrastructure like Bridges, highways, national Parks, and Utilities like Water and Power ... Our Capitialism has a Big Hole In It

If we don't invest in our students, Small Businesses, and Infrastructure ... the better Investment may actually be in china ... and China might have less Risk for the Future ... after all Wages are stagnant in the US and "Good Jobs" are not really keeping up with the population increases since at least 1980. You can make the point that Job Wages have been out of balance and have corrected, but the trend still looks like we lost key and important manufacturing jobs that will not come back. If we don't reward service jobs and if service jobs don't lead to skills training, continuous learning, and some techical skills advancement ... then we have huge parts of service sector jobs that will never add to the workforce skilled workers, and will never provide compensation and wages needed to stimulate consumption and new debt = a Clear Risk to Growth in the USA whether measured in GDP or Disposable Income or American Buying Power.

There is a discussion that says we will never really increase our US manufacturing in existing industries that have gone overseas ... and they say we would not want those jobs back. But the GDP and Economy need Americans to build something, we need a new industry if we don't build something. The simple answers would be Infrastructure investment, roads, bridges, utilities... But don't privatize these things. We don't want to pay to cross a bridge or drive down the road - jesh that makes me think of Europe for some reason. No public Private deals, no privitization. In fact no Banks. Use the Treasury as a Bank to create money.


[-] 4 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

Too prolix!

Whatever it is it's broken. If we sterilize the children of the rich investors before puberty and confiscate their wealth, as we communitize all of FIRE, energy, medicine, giga agribusiness, communications and mass transportation we'll be on the way towards an economy that can support our existence.

The masters won't pay us enough to live or allow our government to assure our survival.

Common. Community. Think about it!

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 11 years ago

It is Probably this Generation of Politicians FOCUS on Networking with Corporations & Lobbyist, but they don't know how to Budget OR Say "NO" to a deal ... and they don't know how to do their Job without making deals with anyone that whines that their corporation needs a Tax Break or a Subsidy.

Just look at the Budgets from George W. Bush onward in the Federal Government. They Doubled the Federal Spending in 10 Years. Ended a War in Iraq, then left all the spending in place in the Budget.

There is no Leadership, Discipline, Budget Sense, Money Sense, ... and No one ever takes responsiblity for any little thing, No one gets Fired, No one loses a Job, they take Failures like Tim Geithner, Ben Bernanke, and the PTB know they got them on the hook and they will do anything to be in the Crony Club. They are FAILURES as Regulators, but hey ... they are our guys and they are players.

It is Fascism. Carte Blanche to the Big Corporate players & More Regulations for the common man and small business woman/man. The Marriage of Corporate Interests with Government Executives. They are in Bed together. War is just a new opportunity to get our guys to claim more of the Public funding or privatize more government functions. We finance the war, we make the weapons for war, we invent newer weapons and communications for war, we put in our war consumtants, we put together Logistics support for the war in new corporations, but lets privatize more air express shipping too... lets put the post office out of bsuiness so we can take all the military air express shipping services, privatize them all.

And don't touch our private security forces we need more contracts and more opportunities for foreign service ... we are going after more oil and strengthening more embassies for the next big push against the local governments. Privatize the army ... we'll call it private security contracts.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Breed Greed out of society?

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

Kaiser's Eugenics may not catch on but the communitization better or we ain't gonna make it. Are we?

And it's non the worse for having already been asked by the young John Conners.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

Well - one really need not sterilize em - if you stop and think about it - if things keep going the way they are - then - the greedy will become natural targets for elimination by many people - their living to die of old age will become a rare event as time goes by..

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

Whatever works! But where's the fun in that?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 years ago

I am sure those who make sure that the assholes do not die of old age - will have to be creative as time goes by.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

Won't be me either. I'm too old for that kinda shit. But I'm inclined, like you and Marx 150 years ago, to predict something like that. KM also spoke of history repeating itself:

Marx said, "Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce."

Not having learned much, we're doomed to repeat our failures in ever more convincing ways.

[-] 3 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 11 years ago

There is no doubt that capitalism could be reformed to something like it was after the New Deal was enacted; the question is, will that be enough?

While many of us look at that time as the high-point for the 99%, we should also remind ourselves, that a vast portion of our population was left behind, and it is also the time when we blindly heightened our assault on our environment

This was made especially evident for anyone who traveled through the Deep South, or visited the inner cities in the '60s, where blinding poverty was often the norm, or for anyone who witnessed the devastation we brought to our waters, land, and the air that we breathe

What we have to realize is that we are entering an era with huge new challenges which threaten our very existence, and most of them were brought on by our neglect, or ignorance.

Inarguably the first and foremost problem we face is an environment that is on the brink

So how can we support any economic system which inherently does not promote sustainibility, but rather requires constant growth, hence the constant degradation of our planet to obtain it

WE are in a crisis, and we should take advantage of it, as that is the time that we should.... at the very least... set us ourselves on a course to look for the really BIG answers to the really BIG predicaments we find ourselves in

So our top priority, I believe MUST BE wresting control away from the plutocrats, and putting it back in the the hands of the people

Only then will we have a chance..............


[-] 2 points by gsw (3410) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 11 years ago

So our top priority, I believe MUST BE wresting control away from the plutocrats, and putting it back in the the hands of the people

Odin, You like populist ideas. Don't know if you saw this http://www.cusdi.org/index.html

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 11 years ago

Almost everyone in Occupy has gravitated to what either they are best at or what interests them most

Having a model for an alternative.. more participatory, and accountable form of government is a really good thing and I am glad people here are working on it, but i have not devoted much time to it honestly

There is a lot to digest in your link, and much of what I see is good, but may be difficult to implement. The latter should not be a deterrent though

I don't know for sure, but i think we should strive for a transitioning period where we could work out the old ways that have not worked well for us for a long time, and replace them with the new ideas that we need for the 21st century and beyond

Much thought must be given to the human condition though....that is, what most of us need on an everyday basis so that our spirits can continue to grow and thrive as individuals in a free society

Developing a new set of ethos for a society that has digressed away from what is important in life... which we all share the blame for... will be essential in the new world we want

Although I feel this period of passage is needed to retain stability, we have no choice, but to do it in an expeditious and prioritizing manner especially due to the enviromental crisis we find ourselves in

Anyway, I have been concentrating my efforts mostly on growing this movement and empowering people, both from here and Occupy Town Square

Because if we do not succeed there, nothing else can be accomplished


[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 11 years ago

I"m not sure if that was a 'slight' or a compliment. It's late, I'll check it out tomorrow, thanks

Our whole political and justice system has broken down

History has left us the blue-prints

It's up to us if we choose to use them



[-] 2 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 11 years ago

The most intelligent system is not a money-based system, it's a resource-based system.


Let's do our homework people, and then tell me why we shouldn't be uniting to go full steam in this direction.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 11 years ago

Although I still think free market capitalism is the best system, when a small group within reaches a critical political and economic mass, their power over the economy becomes so great that the system fails to benefit the majority.

Capitalism needs to have a reset button depressed every generation to relieve that unjust balance of economic and political power. Something similar to the Jubilee year in the Torah where all debts are erased and land is returned to the original owners. If we don't do this soon, either the economic policies of the wealthy will cause the world economy to implode or the people to rise up and explode.

[-] 1 points by satohirona (-20) 11 years ago

The preferred economic system is free market capitalism. In theory it provides us with the things we want and need at the best prices and in the required quantities. There's little debate about that.

There's a huge debate on whether capitalism is the best economic system. Times are changing. In the 21st century, an economic system is not just about providing people with the things they want and need at the best prices. The "how" those things are provided has become almost as important as the price. People are starting to realize that we can't destroy the planet. We don't want products if they destroy some animal species. We don't want products that cause Global Warming. It's not just about money anymore.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 11 years ago

Community isnt about "isms"... Versions of those isms have been around for a very very very long time.

IMO, community has nothing to do with the isms, but a lot to do with the people that make it up. A well functioning community doesnt need any ism to function. It simply needs to care, and to be accountable,

Right now, we may still care, but we are not accountable.


[-] -1 points by HCabret (-327) 11 years ago

Capitalism and Socialism are equally as bad. Neither will provide freedom, both only strive to provide material wealth and to distribute the material wealth as the state sees fit.

[-] 4 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

"The vision of Christ that thou dost see is my vision's greatest enemy."

When Blake like insight is applied to the capitalism v socialism we see that the capitalist propaganda has it that socialism is just another way to dominate the population. That vision is pure projection. The 20th Century failed socialist experiments provide no true visionary experience.

[-] -1 points by HCabret (-327) 11 years ago

I am not basing my statement on history, but on principle. Both philosphies fetishize money and wealth, they just disagree on who should pocess the money and wealth and how much certain people should have.

[-] 0 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

Either way it's still based on the propaganda of capitalists, which is largely projection of their own evil greed. All that you apparently know of socialism is what your masters programmed into you.

Don't bother to challenge me to de-program you. You will only know the truth if you will it.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 11 years ago

I said that capitalism is just a bad as socialism. Youd think if they had successfully brainwashed me, that I would attack socialism, while praising capitalism, but I am in reality bashing both equally.

Capitalism IS BAD. Socialism IS BAD. How much clearer can I be?

[-] 2 points by peacehurricane (293) 11 years ago

I would think that you would know better than to admit to being brainwashed, thanks for the clarification that you are a victim. Hello in there all is good the rest is a result of outside non existers.

[-] 2 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

I know what you said. It's not clarity you lack. It's the capability of vision.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 11 years ago

Your opinion: socialism is good, capitalism is bad.

My opinion: socialism is bad, capitalism is bad.

Capability? This thread isnt about alternatives, it is about the merits of the already proposed systems.

Money is bad.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (2516) from Fredericksburg, TX 11 years ago

You apparently read my words but understood none of them. This isn't a discussion. You aren't able to keep up. I'll waste no more time trying to talk to you.

[-] -2 points by HCabret (-327) 11 years ago

The prefered system is no system.