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Forum Post: Climate Science in Motion

Posted 2 years ago on July 28, 2012, 1:42 p.m. EST by shoozTroll (17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Here's a site where you can see it in action.

Yes, they even disagree from time to time.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/start-here/

w@rning......Rush Limbaugh never posts here........:)

72 Comments

72 Comments


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[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6000) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If you're not careful here you wander into course work, danger young Will, learning ahead!!

It makes my brain hurt to learn things, but maybe I can make a game of it.

This is a really good site, how do you find them?

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I read a lot of science sites.

You should check out Geo's link too. It gives us a little history.

It's not as new an idea as you might think.

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6000) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'll check it out have you seen this one?

http://www.gapminder.org/

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Cool. the washing machine guy................:)

That's great stuff...........:)

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6000) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

"washing machine guy"? The only one of those I know of is Fred Maytag, the guy who saved good beer in America, (with the help of Buffalo Bob, he bought Anchor Brewing in the sixties and kept beer alive till America was ready again)

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Yeah!!!

The washing machine guy.

http://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans-rosling-and-the-magic-washing-machine/

Love this video.............:)

It always frees up half the population.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6000) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I’ll see your washing machine and raise you 49, actually I really like this, and you may have seen this one,

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/marcin_jakubowski.html

I posted it here I think this guy is great:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-smartest-guy-in-the-world-today-this-is-how-we/

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Many months ago, I provided a blueprint for an open source political party that would have allowed OWS to maintain it's anarchistic core, yet provided a path to change the system we have in place now.

As with most outside the box ideas around here, it is now buried.

BTW. I really enjoyed Jakubowski's talk.......:)

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6000) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Always good to bump it back in, there's a lot of traffic.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It was already deep within another thread.

Impossible to find now.

One must wonder if someone besides us pays any attention to this forum.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Awesome - tweeted!

People this is the stuff that needs to be circulated out onto other social media. Education awareness outreach. Good Food for Thought.

The more who tweet a site of information or tweet an issue for public consideration - the more of the public is likely to see and access that information.

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's where scientists actually involved in climate studies interact, so it's in constant motion, yet always factual to a fault.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

A good source for information. It's nice to have good sources that can be accessed by the public.

[-] 1 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

No such thing as factual to a fault when dealing with science. Facts muddy up politics.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Sorry Geo, I guess I was tying to make a point to the doubters.

In science, "facts" are often what's in motion.

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

No need to apologize. :) Facts aren't in motion, facts just are.... interpretation of the facts/observations, is what is in motion.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Anyone interested in the history of AGW Theory from the very beginnings in the 19th century to modern times check out this link from the American Institute of Physics (AIP). Links to the original groundbreaking papers are included:

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm/

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Thanks Geo, very nice explanation of how the theory was developed.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4829) 2 years ago

Great link shooz.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

The Koch's have got to love this:

Muller in October released results from the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature (BEST) project, set up for global warming skeptics, that showed that since the mid-1950s, global average temperatures over land have risen by 0.9 degrees Celsius (1.6 degrees Fahrenheit). Advertise | AdChoices

In his new statement, Muller said, "Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause."

He credited his turnaround to "careful and objective analysis" by BEST, explaining: "our results show that the average temperature of the earth's land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and one half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of the increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gasses. These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United nations Group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming...."

Watch the Top Videos on NBCNews.com

Money for the BEST study came from five foundations, including one established by Microsoft founder Bill Gates and another from the Charles Koch Charitable Foundation, set up by the billionaire coal magnate and widely seen as a source of money for conservative organizations and initiatives that have fought efforts to curb greenhouse-gas emissions.

That's OK, a written apology is all that is required, no need for flowers.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

There are some who won't believe it until a coconut falls on their head while walking down the street in Fairbanks.

Maybe not then.

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

You are right. See the troll, bearclaw, below.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Mr. claw doesn't want to respond to me........:(

Musta got hit in the head with a coconut.........:)

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I agree with you, but i have visited Fairbanks in the winter. Believe me, we still have a little time before we have coconuts falling out of trees there. lol

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Yeah.

I usually say Woodward Avenue, but most folks here have no idea where and what that is, so I substituted the first Alaskan city that came to mind.

The concept still works............:)

[-] -2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Fairbanks is unusual as it can be one of the coldest places in the winter, and yet one of the warmest places in Alaska in the summer. Woodward Ave....errr...i think I''m one of those folks who has no idea where and what that is. I remember having an outdoor keg party in Fairbanks when it was -30 or so. We had to keep the keg close enough to the fire to keep the tap from freezing, but not that close that the beer got warm. It is amazing how innovative you can be when you need to be.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's biggest claim to fame is as the first paved road in America.

http://www.woodwardavenue.org/Tour/Woodward+History-23.html

Although history does abound around it too.

Nowadays it's home to the Woodward Dream Cruise.....a celebration of exhaust fumes, which I try hard to avoid...........:)

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks, it makes sense the first paved roads were in Detroit.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Well, at this rate, we will be growing palm trees before too long.......:(

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Agreed, and people of Swedish ancestry, like me, are known to be hard-headed so I should be OK. ;-)

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I'm thinking of marketing steel umbrellas.........:)

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Graphite - better conductor of electricity. {:-O

[-] 4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

The idea, my friend, is to protect from falling coconuts.

What were you thinking of?

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Lightning storm - steel umbrella = good conductor

Graphite better conductor. Lighter too. Probably be more painless. {:-])

I mean if coconuts are growing in Fairbanks Alaska - things have got to be pretty desperate.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Sweet idea, eh??

The day is coming. We need electricity from wherever we can get it, and that's a powerful free force..........and one that we are capable of attracting.

Can we catch it? Can we store it?

I've been saying for years that better batteries are the future too.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I believe that there are areas that get quite the regular lightning strikes - I imagine that one bolt of lightning could put power into quite a few of those liquid metal batteries. The demo I saw had them set-up in like one of those big metal shipping containers creating one massive battery. One lightning bolt could probably service over an acre of those things maybe more. Get a tall non conducting pole with a conductive crown string cables from the crown to the batteries. Huh.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Never thought of the lightening thing.

There could be a market for Hi capacity lightening charged battery farms in the future.

Anyone here good at macro engineering?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (22310) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Wonder if that could work with those liquid metal battery's. Harvest the lightning.

[-] -1 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Always the entrepeneur, eh?

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

More of a cynic, really.............:) and you can toss in a dose comic wannbe...........:)

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

It's easy to get cynical, but you have to fight it. The youth who are the main drivers of this movement keep me positive.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

It's hard not to be.

Especially now that I realize what has transpired, and who is really causing such damage all over the World.

Neolibe(R)tarians are no joke.

At least I now see that some others are beginning to understand.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Conservative-Millennials--by-Thom-Hartmann-120729-503.html

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

The more that you learn the more depressing it is. Still though, "Attitude is the difference between ordeal, and adventure." author unknown We are on an adventure with a lot of good, like-minded people.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Neoliberalism is, I believe a misnomer.

It was as a term itself, popularized, if not coined by neolibe(R)tarian think tanks.

A kind of cover for their co-option of politics and economics all over the World..........

A way to implicate liberals, while they were actually busy taking over the "right" wing parties with organizations like ALEC, CATO Mackinaw Center, etc.

Every single time you follow the money, it leads back to more neolibe(R)tarians.

The shoe still fits.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Thanks, I'll check it . The shoe does still fit though.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Depressing?

No, I find it enlightening.

The depressing part is the refusal of many to understand the concept.

They continue to think inside the D & R box, and refuse to accept the significance of the neolibertarians.in all aspects of American politics.

Let alone their influence on the World stage.

The thing is, this shoe fits.

From the military industrial complex, to the shock doctrine, to the propaganda mills that support those things.

It fits. Better than any other shoe we've found so far.

It fits all the evidence.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I agree neoliberalism is the driving force behind all that ails us, and it is a powerful force which will require an equally strong force to defeat. It reminds me of the company towns of the early 20th century, which to my mind are a microcosm of what is going on today. Hopefully our victory can happen without the bloodshed that they endured.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4829) 2 years ago

Thank you Brightonsage, for good post.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

Thank you for the thank you.

[+] -6 points by bearclaw (-152) 2 years ago

Global warming has been debunked a long time ago.

[-] 3 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

Of course you are wrong. And you have just changed aliases, because you have a record you don't want to defend.

[-] 1 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

Yep, I have a few aliases, but I don't think I'm the person you're thinking about. I spread the information out between names so as not to pigeon hole any one of them. The posts have a much better chance of getting read without bias.

I can't post too often (time constraints). I find it far easier to get the news bits I need to get out to the masses this way. I'm not interested in building a 'persona' with one name any more, or points either. Getting the information out is the most important thing. There's a couple of people here who know who I am. That's good enough for me.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

A curious blend of honesty.

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[-] 1 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

Hopefully both parties are done. We need to move on from the status quo. Both parties promise lower taxes...yet we get higher taxes. Both parties promise more jobs...yet we lose jobs. Both parties promise alternate energy...yet we get oil oil oil. Both parties promise better education...yet our kids are getting dumbed down. And on and on. Something's amiss...wouldn't you say?

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[-] 1 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

Something tells me you've been involved in, and/or seen, some pretty freaky sh#t ZenDog. Paranoia is a pretty normal reaction to that, I suppose. Trust me, there's plenty to be paranoid about. But the only thing I want to divide is the masses perception of the global elites' from their psyches, relative to how the elite think compared to us. The only thing I want to conquer are the elite themselves so as to set humanity free by letting the masses know 'truth' relative to the illusion of life that they are living now. Happy posting ZenDog !

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[-] 0 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

I see...and that's why you're here at ows? Because you don't give a f#ck? Ok.

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[-] 1 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

Just a little on the reactionary side is all. Other than that, there's a healthy perspective, truth...good enough. Peace Zen!

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[-] 1 points by FreedomReigns (72) 2 years ago

You're reading too much into this Zen. I am sooooo not bearclaw.

Time to kick back with a soothing tea of choice I think, and r-e-l-a-x.

This is one of the reasons I don't work with one persona any more. Too much time spent back and forth defending motives. I got quite caught up in it I'll admit. Its just so useless. At least to me, it is.

If staying anonymous by using multiple names to get important information out without getting 'labelled' as one thing or another, then, so be it. I don't need adulation, or even recognition for that matter. Who I am, is of no importance. Only the information.

You do it your way, and I'll do it mine. My mission (when time allows), is to get the important points out.

That's it for now Zen. Time to move on. Peace.

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[-] -3 points by bearclaw (-152) 2 years ago

In my County in Mi there will be hardly no apples this year because the trees were hit with frost!!!! Dam Global warming hahahahahahahahhaha

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Then you really don't understand what AGW means if you think that it won't frost. Local weather is not an indicator of the global average.

[-] -2 points by marvelpym (-184) 2 years ago

science is always in motion:

"Why Politicized Science is Dangerous

Imagine that there is a new scientific theory that warns of an impending crisis, and points to a way out. This theory quickly draws support from leading scientists, politicians and celebrities around the world. Research is funded by distinguished philanthropies, and carried out at prestigious universities. The crisis is reported frequently in the media. The science is taught in college and high school classrooms.

I don't mean global warming. I'm talking about another theory, which rose to prominence a century ago.

Its supporters included Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Winston Churchill. It was approved by Supreme Court justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis, who ruled in its favor. The famous names who supported it included Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone; activist Margaret Sanger; botanist Luther Burbank; Leland Stanford, founder of Stanford University; the novelist H. G. Wells; the playwright George Bernard Shaw; and hundreds of others. Nobel Prize winners gave support. Research was backed by the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations. The Cold Springs Harbor Institute was built to carry out this research, but important work was also done at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and Johns Hopkins. Legislation to address the crisis was passed in states from New York to California.

These efforts had the support of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Medical Association, and the National Research Council. It was said that if Jesus were alive, he would have supported this effort.

All in all, the research, legislation and molding of public opinion surrounding the theory went on for almost half a century. Those who opposed the theory were shouted down and called reactionary, blind to reality, or just plain ignorant. But in hindsight, what is surprising is that so few people objected.

Today, we know that this famous theory that gained so much support was actually pseudoscience. The crisis it claimed was nonexistent. And the actions taken in the name of theory were morally and criminally wrong. Ultimately, they led to the deaths of millions of people.

The theory was eugenics, and its history is so dreadful --- and, to those who were caught up in it, so embarrassing --- that it is now rarely discussed. But it is a story that should be well know to every citizen, so that its horrors are not repeated."

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Oh boy, just what we need, more Alex Jones crap.

Wasn't Mr. P enough?

[-] -1 points by marvelpym (-184) 2 years ago

Not Alex Jones. I have to admit that I needed to look him up since I'd never heard of him. I don't listen to the radio because I don't have a car and I use public transportation everywhere, which is good for the environment, but I don't have to tell you that. I'm sure you always use public transportation too.

[-] 2 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

"But it is a story that should be well know to every citizen, so that its horrors are not repeated."

There is a very clear line between science and politics. Science deals with discovery, politics deals with policy.

Whenever you hear people proposing solutions, thats policy. Whenever actions are suggested, that is policy.... not science. Science may guide policy suggestions to test the soundness of such solutions, but science does not propose policy.

Organizations like the NAS and AMA and IPCC are political organizations. They may fund science and collate results but they are politically motivated, they perform no science. When such organizations suggest policy well.... I already covered that.

Since scientists are indeed human, things can get confusing. A finding published in a journal is scientific reporting. When the scientist is interviewed and asked his opinion on an issue.... then he is wearing his political agenda hat should he respond, he is no longer acting as a scientist. By the same token, politicians and lay people who claim to speak for science and advocate policy are being political.

If the public and scientists can keep these distinctions fresh and in the forefront of thought when dealing with issues a great deal of grief can be avoided.

Its supporters included Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and Winston Churchill. It was approved by Supreme Court justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis Brandeis, who ruled in its favor.

Politicians with an agenda.

The famous names who supported it included Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone; activist Margaret Sanger; botanist Luther Burbank; Leland Stanford, founder of Stanford University; the novelist H. G. Wells; the playwright George Bernard Shaw; and hundreds of others. Nobel Prize winners gave support. Research was backed by the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations

Inventors, playwrights, writers, are not authorities. Even Nobel Prize winners if commenting on policy should immediately send up the red flag of suspicion that science is no longer being discussed. And the most important part I highlighted in bold - science does not operate by consensus.

[-] 0 points by marvelpym (-184) 2 years ago

Great comments. As a skeptic (not a denier), the worst thing to me is the bit about how those who opposed eugenics were shouted down and insulted. Just like today It's almost impossible to have a real discussion about climate anymore.

[-] 3 points by geo (2638) from Concord, NC 2 years ago

Einstein was shouted down and insulted after he published his General Theory of Relativity. Books were written by German scientists that proclaimed him wrong, some very famous names of the day were included.

But as stated above and by Einstein himself, science is not run by consensus, it is objective in nature and as he stated, 'one hundred authors? It would take but one person to prove me wrong if I was.'

The debate over AGW should never have entered the public arena in the first place. The public unfortunately is as unqualified to determine what is objective truth in Einsteins case as it is with AGW. The public relies on faith, faith that the talking heads, and media outlets, they have the most trust in are telling them the truth about the subject.

What troubles people most about AGW isn't even the truth of theory. What bothers them are the implications of the theory if it is correct. Therefore, the science gets attacked. Discredit with misinformation the science and one doesn't have to deal with the implications. Shoot the messenger because we don't like the message.