Forum Post: Christie takes on Occupy New Hampshire hecklers
Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 9, 2012, 8:02 p.m. EST by GirlFriday
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Occupy New Hampshire protester Walter Ducharme, 82, a Korean War veteran and former teacher who also ran a homeless shelter in his native Cambridge, Mass., says the movement still has power as Republican candidates tout their austerity plans and push for cutting government spending and reducing regulations on big business.
Ducharme's round, weather-worn face broke into a smile when asked whether the Occupiers are still being heard.
The Republicans, he said, "know we're here."
"We can tell by the way they treat us," he said. "They shout us down, push us around, try to kick us out. Oh yeah, it bothers them."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/us-election-blog/2012/01/christie-takes-on-occupy-new-hampshire-hecklers.html
I think we've just seem the tip of the iceberg.
yes he's about the size of one!
Why are people so cruel to fat/obese people? The OWS crowd aint exactly full of runway models. Why does his weight matter at all? The only real reasoning I see here is that American elites view obesity with disgust, and they’re repulsed at the notion that a very fat guy could rise to a position of symbolic leadership. It’s not a very attractive sentiment.
He has on numerous occasions told OWS members to go take a bath and get a job so he has made name calling and insults a viable part of any debate with him. Very unprofessional especially for a so called leader!
On face value I can see your point...however these stinky, germy, diseased folks should bathe and get a job. It is good advice. Any parent would tell that to there child.
Yes your right and it's so much easier for them to fit in one they should be ashamed!
I smell tuna! LOL
no it's easiier to get a job if you are neat and clean..that was good advice.
So everyone in OWS stinks and has no job! I guess your a racist to! Lady people arn't campin out there because it's fun, you should really look into the facts of this movement befor critizing it!
Oh dear ! I think you might not get a job because you are illiterate... as well as stinky. (don't know where you got the racist stuff from ??)
Your so transparently naive, but so grounded in proper etiquette, Oh my god you are so brilliant, can I wash you sacred feet!
Yep. I agree.
"Something may go down tonight..." I think he was talking about cheeseburgers.
Christie had to do anything for a living that did not involve his mouth he would die.
He could probably supply plenty of natural gas!
What, like tie his own shoes ?
I agree.
frankly my darling, I don't give a damn
hope for what? change for what?
meh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se-Nq_rBQHk
The only thing going down will be 6 triple large Mac Donald's cheese burgers, 5 large orders of fries, 2 large chocolate shakes, and a stop at a GIANT super market for a lunch time coconut cream pie. Ask anyone in NJ about Christeen Christie, union bust-in, teacher salary cutting Property tax raising hypocrite. He's always been a big supporter of big government as you can see!
DependentClass is correct about the one way tactics used by our movement. I have found during many talks with republicans that if you let them tell their side, and really listen, you can gain an opening to make a good point. Shouting just shuts the debate down."Know your enemy" Listen and you can collect verbal ammo to bolster our side. Also, sometimes we can find points to agree on. This enables us to bring our opponents to our side.
The republicans rarely debates to the "Actual" public, most of their speaking arrangements are scheduled in advanced and scripted. To “Mic Check” them is the only way your going to get a rise out of them. Do you think when they pick random people out of the audience to take questions from they are really random? No the chosen people are volunteers from the local campaign office, really people how naive can you get, think about it!
They have to bring something to the table. Few of them are capable of that simple task. I know my enemy.
It's not like their saying anything new.
It's just the same repackaged crap the (R)epelicans have been pushing for years.
'Cept Newt wants to make poor kids clean toilets for an education.
Could this be more banal?
Not by much. They have had ample time to debate the finer points and have not shown that they are capable.
Nary a sign of a platform from the lot of 'em.
Just more pointless rhetoric.
Yep and if you start one that has potential they do nothing but whine.
The one with the most money wins anyway. That's why we need a third party candidate who will refuse PAC & corporate contributions to fight these goons. I'm not a fan of ANYBODY on the ballots this year!
is there a poll for how monotonous the run offs have become
I wish. :/
Chris Christie is probably one of the trolls in this forum.
Chris Christie is a breath of fresh air. What Christie has done is the unthinkable in American politics. He has single-handedly forced the state of New Jersey to move towards eliminating its massive multi-billion deficit hole. The long-term plan is to cut expenses, balance the budget and eventually lower taxes.
Is that you, Chris?
no...I am a supporter of strong, honest leaders who are for the forgotten middle class..he does not pander to union thugs. what a brave guy.
Yes he just doomed everyone to $9.00 an hour jobs, thats about what will be available without unions. Unions are for workers. Did your taxes go down substantually with cheisty NO!
So, I guess that all the right to work states only have jobs that pay $9.00 per hour? You might want to do a little research there.
And as for taxes going down in New Jersey, rate of increase is as important to the whole picture as lowering them..........
I gues you live in NJ right... your comment on taxes does not compute clarify! Right to work gives you one right, to work for less! No I'm saying before you elect someone who claims that they are going to put America back to work remember to ask For how much an hour!
No, I do not live in New Jersey.
Do you believe that lowering property taxes is something that is simply legislated without any "cuts" in anything else? That it can be done with a stroke of the pen? Aren't you the one who suggested that the government of New Jersey needed to go "on a diet"? Last time I checked a "diet" didn't come with immediate results.
Nor did the high rate of property taxation happen immediately with a stroke of the pen. The increases over the past decades have sometimes been as much as 7% in that state in one year. This 3% increase is one of the lowest in decades for New Jersey. It is a step in the right direction....and part of the ongoing diet.
There are many places other than education that could stand cuts it's all about power with republicans and especially big mouth christy! He hated unions from day 1 in politics and swore to break them up!
Texas has the highest level of minimum wage jobs.
And there is that tired old propaganda statement again.......
An analysis by the NATIONAL Employment Law Project finds that while the majority of jobs lost during and after the recession were in mid-wage occupations, roughly three-quarters of the jobs added since job growth resumed are in low-wage occupations. (In case you don't understand - this means that NATIONWIDE 3/4's of the jobs added - and touted by the Obama Administration - are low wage occupations.)
The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimated that seven of the 10 occupations with the most job growth between 2008 and 2018 will be low-paying positions. (Again, this is NATIONWIDE not state by state - so picking out Texas does nothing but show that you are one of those who pick and choose which "truths" to put out in order to forward your own agenda).
Read more: http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/christine-l-owens-good-news-in-states-as-minimum-wage/article_3e74ea71-bb44-57d3-b8fd-ec040710c5a3.html#ixzz1j5BzwfQv
Read more: http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/christine-l-owens-good-news-in-states-as-minimum-wage/article_3e74ea71-bb44-57d3-b8fd-ec040710c5a3.html#ixzz1j5BLxocv
Sorry, Texas is just the glaring example.
Somehow, in spite of all this, CEO pay continues to rise.
Coincidence?
I don't think so.
No, Texas is the convenient scape goat for the liberal democrat who has to denigrate the fact that at least Texan's are working while ignoring the truth that nationally, 3/4's of ALL new jobs are at minimum wage or slightly higher.
Sure it is.
Do you work for minimum wage?
If Texas was so great, you'd think they would have the highest wages in the country.
They're just one of leaders in the race to the bottom.
Not with his appitite! Property taxes in NJ are nearly the highest in the country. Forget about public services, and now the quality of teaching will decline because good teachers will seek employment elsewhere. and a whole lot more!
New Jersey homeowners paid an average of 2.4 percent more for property taxes in 2011, the smallest increase in nearly two decades, showing Gov. Chris Christie’s push to restrain local levies might be working.
A Star-Ledger analysis of taxes in all 566 New Jersey towns shows the average property tax bill was $7,758 last year, an increase of about $182 from 2010.
Although more than 82 percent of the towns saw some increase in their average property tax bills last year, the 2.4 percent increase was a significantly slower rate of growth, the newspaper found. In 2010, property taxes rose 4.1 percent and year-over-year increases topped 7 percent for three consecutive years in the middle of the past decade.
The last time property taxes rose by such a small rate was 1992, when they went up 1.9 percent, according to state figures.
Christie has made reining in New Jersey’s highest-in-the-nation property taxes a big goal of his administration. Along with the Democrat-controlled Legislature, he limited property tax collections for towns, schools and counties at 2 percent, starting last January.
So your so use to paying out the wazoo for property tax that a year that only carries a 3% increase seems like a tax break! Come on $7,758 is an adverage that is high! So instead of smaller government Christy raids the unions sorry I'm not buying that as an acceptable way to solve the problem, put government on a DIET!
You imply first that Christie is responsible for New Jersey having some of the highest property tax rates. Since he has only served as Governor of that state since January of 2010, then that is quite simply not accurate.
Are teachers, firefighters and police not part of the government? They are in fact employees of the government and therefore the tax payer. Should the "diet" of the government not include ALL its parts? Do the Union negotiated benefits and pay of those government employees not contribute to the high property taxation?
New Jersey's government workers have the highest average income in the nation....any "diet" will of necessity include them.
Take a look inside a typical public employee union contract – including teacher contracts – and you’ll find provisions that give public servants a payout for any unused sick or personal leave time they have banked.
Sometimes the payouts come incrementally, like at the employees’ 10th anniversary. More often they come at retirement. The payments are almost always based on the employees’ current or final salary, rather than the amount they were making when they banked the unused day off.
New Jersey, which is on the hook “for an accumulated $825 million in unused sick days,” according to Syracuse.com. That’s the cumulative amount owed by all levels of state government, including school districts. “This works out to an average of $250 in property taxes per resident,” writes the HudsonReporter.com. http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/feeditem/union-negotiated-sick-day-compensation-system-under-fire-new-jersey
A study of teacher salaries shows the average pay for New Jersey teachers is $63,154, and the median salary is $57,467. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/nj_teachers_pay_freeze_salarie.html
By still raising them 3% he is responsible. Yes all the areas of taxpayer services you mention should be part of the cut. But I think privatization of the schools would be a win win situation for NJ, better quality, cost control, no more government intervention. The teachers pension fund from what I hear took a big hit from 2008 on because of poor investments, so there's another area where state government fumbled the ball. Those salary ranges do not seem high to me! When I worked I had a union contract that allowed employees to bank sick time! So what happens when you put money in the bank YOU SAVE IT and it grows interest. What did the state of NJ do with the money! So when I banked sick time it showed up on my pay stub and was banked that week! The government banked the sick days probably as IOU's and never put anything away, typical government, just like the fed does with social security!
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/nj_teachers_pay_freeze_salarie.html -
for information on the teacher issue.
You have very low expectations of fresh air.
Understand this about Christie,.......for all his force, he's a RHINO. I live in NJ If romney gets the nomination don't be suprised if he picks Christie for V.P.
What do you mean by RHINO? fat ass loud mouth self indulged bully, who uses tax payer dollars for chopper rides to pick up his kids at little league?
Left out the part about where he paid for the trip didn't you?
Has Pelosi paid back the US Taxpayer for her excessive use of government jets and catered food/drink for her trips home to Cali?
And what did the Obama's New York Date Night cost the US Taxpayer? Or the birthday trip to Paris for their 13 year old daughter?
If you are going to complain about the cost of things the politicians do, then cover both parties...otherwise, it means nothing.
After the media reported the incident! I didn't say what party I supported, just tellin it like it is, ask anyone who lives in NJ about Christie
My point is the same - nothing is accomplished by pointing out the inappropriate use of government funds and property by one party over another. It is done by BOTH parties all the time and will not stop until WE stop the partisan finger pointing and point that finger at all of them - regardless of party.
Is everyone in New Jersey complaining about the fact that they had one of the lowest increases in their property taxation this year in decades? They could justifiably complain that they did increase but shouldn't they make an attempt to understand why the increase was less than in those past decades? Do they believe that they just "happened" or could it be that some of the new policies regarding not only the Union benefits of State employees but other policies?
Sitting idly by really doesn't do much but encourage bad behavior!
"fat ass loud mouth self indulged bully"? you mean the first wookie?
No problem with that ticket... got to go with what we got. Maybe they can take O out.
Sounds like it.
Did you watch the video freaky friday? When the hecklers switched from “Mitt kills jobs” to “Christie kills jobs,” the larger-than-life governor stopped in his tracks. “Really?” The packed gym erupted in laughter. “You know, something may go down tonight but it ain’t gonna be jobs, sweetheart,” Governor Christie said. The crowd roared in support of Christie.
Christie Rocks
Christie has "rocks" for brains.
He had his surgically removed, so he would have more room for food.
Please get your facts straight Shnooki, given the difficulty of governing as a conservative in New Jersey, Christie's accomplishments are among the most impressive of any governor.
In his first year, Christie closed a massive deficit without raising taxes, working with a Democratic legislature. He followed up on that victory by signing a 2 percent property tax growth cap, a measure similar to a tax cap that has proven to be a significant restraint on government spending .
Nice only thing the only people that get into those rally's are Romney campaign volunteers and the media that's about it so your really not getting a cross section on the population
They were laughing at him dude!
What gets boring is the people blindly supporting the Republican party. I would expect to see present supporters of the Rep.Party sending a firestorm of complaints to those in office as well as to those running for office. Supporting inaction is not a good thing.
http://realrepubs.com/video/12
I support who is ever able to get rid of Obama.
What did He ever do to you?
Obama's vision is destroying the middle class. The Washington Post’s Fact Checker Said “Obama Is On Track To Have The Worst Jobs Record Of Any President In The Modern Era. Unless the economy turns around in the next 12 months, Obama is on track to have the worst jobs record of any president in the modern era.
Since President Obama Took Office The Nation Has Lost 1.9 Million Jobs And The Unemployment Rate Has Increased From 7.8 Percent To 8.6 Percent..Please get him out...We can not afford another 4 destructive years of Obama policies.
He's just doing as he was told and so did Bush and Clinton and so will the next guy...
"They" show the President elect the other Zapruder film, You know, the one that shows the shooter from the "grassy knoll"...and somehow a President who says he is for the people becomes the President for the corporation..
Seems plausible, because that's what has been happening every f*ckin' time.
You wasting your time, their all like mush brained, they are incapable of reading into the information in front of them!
Ignorance is much better I'm guessing..As long as you can afford it...
Unfortunately we got the two party system...so the best choice seems to be to chuck Obama, And BTW Obama seems to be owned by SEIU, CSEA, etc. everyone ignores this...and just blabs about corporations.
How many of those job loses were gifted by the teabaggers?
What your putting all that on Him? What about the prior pres who left him hanging with two wars and an economic meltdown. Then the Congress not working together to fix anything. And you blame it all on Obama!
Focus honey: Just deal with the AH we have in the WH now.. and get him out. GWB is gone...bye bye.
see
That just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Do some homework on the present members of Congress. Then campaign to get rid of the non-working AH s there! The President has little chance to get anything done if there is no support from Congress.
Is that right?
Then explain the Executive Orders and Recess Appointments.
Check out the bills coming out of the House being ignored by the Senate as an exercise in understanding who it is that is really being the obstructionist party at the moment....and let us not forget that for two years, Obama had a stacked deck in Congress....
His empty, high-sounding rhetoric has long revealed, Obama is nothing more than a true-believing liberal whose resume contains not a single important achievement, let alone one requiring exemplary leadership real world style, where a person's face is marred by dust and sweat and blood.. Obama is the problem,
Add to that vacuum the reality that we can borrow from F. Scott Fitzgerald to say youthful Barry invented just the sort of Barack Obama a person infatuated with the vast, vulgar, pretentiousness of leftist ideology would be likely to invent, and the president's failures become remarkably unsurprising, though no less pernicious.
So basically your saying that you live in a fantasy world.
No...you are obivously the brainwashed, lefty idiot...mouthing tired political MSNBC crap, Snap out of it.
Careful LaraL by your last response someone might think your getting loopy. Loopier anyway.
1 points by LaraLittletree (68) 1 minute ago
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered. ↥like ↧dislike permalink [-] 1 points by LaraLittletree (68) 1 minute ago
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered. ↥like ↧dislike permalink [-] 1 points by LaraLittletree (68) 1 minute ago
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered. ↥like ↧dislike permalink
wow..I am definitely genuinely nervous now
You really have a hard-on for Obama.
What he do? Say he wouldn't be your pen-pal or something? Un-friend you on facebook? Or did He call you a twit on twitter?
This is What The Republican Party Looks Like!
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered.
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered.
Educate your self...You are unprepared for any serious discussion. Lay off the weed and mescaline..get a decent job...stop being so me centered.
Touchy too? Did that last one hit too close to home? Is everyone telling you that you have a tail? Because if it's only one you can ignore it. Two and you could take it as a joke. But when everyone is telling you you have a tail. Maybe you should get it cropped. Open your eyes before you march into a wall or off a cliff.
The reason I like Mitt Romney's economic plan is because it doesn’t appear Obama has one. He’s been in office well over three years. Unemployment has been over 9% for these years. O just plain sucks.
And the drama about his speech highlights all the time is a real problem: The President of the United States has no spine. . I am bone tired of the President wanting to do something, Republicans blasting him for it and him backing down. It doesn’t matter what he does, Republicans will blast him; he needs to act like he’s the President rather than getting permission from John Boehner to take a piss. Obama sucks.
I watched the video LittleLyin'Laura with no degree and no job and 'nuttin' but BS. :D
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The people of NJ in a masquerade play confused a hector with a clown. Either way, OWS has a lot of work ahead.
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85% of the 99% are Dems so what's that tell ya!
The Republicans, he said, "know we're here."
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Romney took on the OWS goons in the same style that Christie did. When Mitt asked one of the lady's a question, she was speechless, like she did not even know what she was doing there or something. OWS need to get out and get jobs instead of sitting around in the parks pouting and peeing their pants all day
Thanks to Mitt, will apply at Staples, starts at $8.75 an hour, $328.12 per week awesome! It's 25 miles away so that means 3 gallons of gas a day that's $10.80 per day 54.00 per week. After taxes weekly earnings are $219.12 subtract the $54.00 for gas that leaves $165.12. I think I'll pass on this job but if you would like, I can email you the information on this job GOP2012? I can see how Mitt got so rich. he sold off all the higher paying union job, then brags about all the thousands of low wage bad benefit jobs he has created at staples. Then sells the cheapest Chinese products available at the highest markup possible! A real American patriot....don't make me sick!
Maybe you will get lucky and Staples won't hire you. Then you won't have to drive so far to sell cheap Chinese products.
Didn't apply for example only! Your depending on this man to bring back jobs? Pizza delivery and office supply sales isn't going to do it!
I am not sure how exactly I am going to vote. I do know that the assclown in the drivers seat now is taking our Country into the cesspool
This one time at band camp.....
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Well, first of all because I think Governor Romney is the best candidate to beat Barack Obama next November. And we cannot have another four years of Barack Obama in the White House. And so, first I believe that is the biggest reason to support Mitt Romney.
For me, the whole thing has descended into choosing the least among evils.
I actually like Barack Obama as a person, but the fact is that he lied to us to get elected. He had a super-majority for two years yet Gitmo is still open, we only pulled out of Iraq because they kicked us out over Obama's objections, and we added a Libya assault and new bases in Australia. We didn't get immigration reform, and the health care bill was so poorly written it's hung up in the courts with not one, but a zillion challenges (maybe they should have read the damned thing !). He lied to get elected, and I don't think we should re-elect someone who lied. The least we can do is show these politicians we won't reward them for it !
Of the republicans, Romney is the least offensive, and I frankly suspect it will be Romney/Gingrich. Romney's already strong in the northeast. He needs someone who appeals to the right and the south, and he seriously needs someone who knows how to work Congress. I actually bump Romney up a notch for his faith. After reading about the Mormons at http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Mormon/A-Portrait-of-Mormons-in-the-US.aspx , I discovered they have a real commitment to service and charity. This and his comparatively moderate stance makes Romney the least offensive of the Republicans.
Both of these candidates are taking zillions of dollars from mega-corps, and their defense policies are virtually indistinguishable (I'm positive Romney will move back to the center after the primaries when he doesn't have to pander to the right wing anymore).
What a choice huh ? Bozo or Zeppo. Take your pick.
Mark me down as "Decidedly Undecided."
Like you post but "I discovered they have a real commitment to service and charity" I wonder about this statement though? How many homes worth how much!
I suggest you read the material at http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Mormon/A-Portrait-of-Mormons-in-the-US.aspx and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormons .
Um..............I'm an ex-Mormon. It's a cult. You might want to read up a little more on that group.
I am also a former mormon and I agree that it is a cult. It is not as far on the spectrum as the F-LDS or the Moonies, but it is cultish nonetheless.
Unlike the religious right, I don't consider the mormon church a cult because of its beliefs or theology. I consider it a cult because it uses processes of emotional manipulation, group pressure, and authoritarian control. (I am from the "jello belt" so it is possible that these dynamics are not as strong in areas with low mormon populations.) These links give more information on those aspects of mormonism I consider cultish:
http://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=370
I would, and have, voted for mormons for public office and I would vote for a mormon for president. It depends on the particular candidate.
YES!!!
Sorry, I can't condemn a religion that has the same number of followers in the USA as the Jewish faith (both equal to Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu combined) as a 'cult.' I don't agree with their 'new' book, but then I suppose the Jews didn't agree when we Christians added our new book either.
The only basis for judgment of one man by another is public behavior. I care about how good a neighbor he is, not what God he worships (or what he does in the bedroom for that matter). Every single Mormon I have ever known over my 55 years has been a man of utmost character in his dealings with others. His beliefs are between he and God, not he and I.
In any faith, there are fringe groups who do disservice to the larger population of people who follow that faith; there are small groups of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Mormons to who distort the faith of the majority. Unfortunately, people outside each faith like to find the worst thing that anyone has ever done under the name of a extremist sect and use it to label all followers of the associated faith. This is just the religious equivalent of xenophobia.
As far as I'm concerned, all religions should be illegal, or, at the very least, heavily monitored. The problem is not when a person believes such and such fantasy, but when a person instills his dogmatic beliefs to his children with methods of "teaching" that I find extremely problematic.
I have two muslim nephews who are 5 and 7. They go to the madrasa every day after school where they get severely indoctrinated. One of my best friends is a gay muslim and has been rejected by his family. He is not allowed to have his own beliefs or to practice in the way that he wants, else he is rejected from his community. This is very unhealthy and is certainly not the path towards a better society.
People who teach religions to children should be honest. They should be required to draw a clear line between what is a belief, and what is science or the truth. A muslim child of 10 years of age shouldn't be taught that his religion is the truth while those of others aren't. He should be taught that his ancestors believed in the story of Mohammed, but that there is no scientific proof that it represents the truth. It should be made crystal clear that it is only a shared belief. The child should also be able to choose what to believe when he becomes older without having to fear being ostracized by his family. If religions could be taught in this way, then I would accept them.
As far as I can see, this is not how it works. The vast majority of religious people want to indoctrinate their kids with their own beliefs and they hope their children will always continue to have these beliefs. When religious parents realize their children do not share their beliefs anymore, it's usually a very dramatic situation and the parents feel they have failed miserably. It's pathetic.
oh fine, I'll go there. You would make all religion illegal because its not perfect? I haven't had the bad experiences with religion that you have.
I have many friends that are Jewish, married interfaith ( and teach their children interfaith), and a wonderful neighbor who is Muslim.
My kid knows this and I teach him that other people have different beliefs, those beliefs are just as good and we respect all of them. And everyone I know pretty much feels the same way. I can't believe I live in the the only religious tolerant community in the country. There must be many many people who feel this way.
Where I live the Church is a big part of the community serves alot of useful needs.
How can you want to condemn and make illegal all religion for the mistakes of the few? ok, so the sky creature story is a little implausible, and there's no scientific proof for it.
Beyond that, religious intolerance is the problem. Not religion.
Like I said, my problem is how religion is taught. If children are fully aware that they are learning about a belief system that only some people believe represents the truth as opposed to a scientifically proven truth, then I have no problem. Ideally, a child should be schooled on various belief systems, not only the one adopted by his parents. This way he will learn that the belief held by his parents is not "truer" in any way then the belief held by people from other religions. The child should also be aware that it's entirely possible to be an atheist, agnostic, or to simply be apathetic towards religions. In a nutshell, he should be taught that his ancestors believed such and such but that there is no proof that this belief is correct or that it is in any way superior to other beliefs. He should clearly understand the difference between a belief and a scientific fact.
I'm a hard core atheist-ignostic and anti-religious, but my wife is a practicing muslim. I don't step on her toes and she doesn't step on mine. So far, this hasn't been a problem. Our children might very well go to the madrasa, but my wife knows that if they ask me what I believe, I will be very honest with them that I am an atheist and that my stance is that they are too young to decide what their position should be. I'll encourage them to learn about all religions and believe in whatever they want.
I have two problems with religion:
Well that's alot better than making it illegal. : )
I think it can be confusing for a child to be taught different religions. It might be ideal. But its tough enough trying to teach one, and do it well. I agree you need to be honest about your own non-belief in God. But, I'm not going to go out of my way to open up this possibility with my own child. Far easier and more realistic to teach tolerance.
You should not teach religious tolerance to your child.
To tolerate denotes the action of bearing hardship, or the ability to bear pain and hardship. We tolerate mosquitos when fishing on a river deep inside the forest. We tolerate the discomfort brought about by a dentist's drill as he removes one of our cavities. Your child should not learn the idea that he must tolerate his Hindu neighbor as if he was some sort of inconvenience or pain to bear.
Similarly, accepting another's religious beliefs is also problematic. To accept means to take what is offered. We don't accept things that are desirable, we accept things that are undesirable. I don't have to accept that my wife won the lottery, I have to accept that my friend has a cancer.
If you are a Christian teaching your Christian son that he must accept or tolerate his Hindu friend, what you are teaching is the idea that this Hindu friend has a less desirable religious belief than your son, and that your son must somehow learn to bear with this undesirability. You're essentially telling your son that he must learn to "live with it".
This is a major problem in the world today, and one that most people don't understand. Of course, it also applies to races. People learn to tolerate or accept that their neighbor is Mexican, Chinese, or Russian. This idea of tolerance leads to a strange form of racism. A white person might say - "Ya, I just got a new neighbor and he's Mexican. I guess I'm going to have to learn to tolerate him. It won't be easy like it was with Mike the white guy, but I guess it will be OK. We have to tolerate and accept others right? Or else that's racist right?" Our white friend here is being racist without realizing it because he has been taught the idea of tolerance and acceptance.
The problem is that the idea of tolerating of accepting another belief implies that the belief of the tolerator or acceptor is superior to the belief that must be tolerated or accepted. This idea that one belief is better than the other is the root of the problem. It's unhealthy and extremely dangerous.
Instead of teaching your son that he must learn to tolerate and accept the beliefs of others, you must teach him that he must learn to tolerate and accept that his belief (your belief) is not superior to other beliefs, i.e. that it is only one of many possible beliefs. This is a major dilemma because if you teach him this, it implies that your religion, Christianity, is not necessarily the bearer of truth. It implies that you admit that you don't have the faith that Christianity is the one true religion. This brings in an element of doubt, and with doubt enters the scientific method. If you doubt, you don't really have faith. But, if you have faith that Christianity is the bearer of truth, this implies that you believe that the other religions are not the bearers of truth, and that they are thus inferior to your religion.
This dilemma is what causes so many problems in the world today. It's impossible for someone to have full faith in his belief and truly respect all the other beliefs at the same time. As soon as you have 100% faith in your religion, you'll automatically consider the other religions as being false which implies that they are inferior which in turn implies that they must be accepted like a cancer, or tolerated like a mosquito in the forest.
Religious people must stop tolerating and accepting others who have different beliefs than their own, and must instead learn to tolerate and accept the uncomfortable idea that their belief is not superior to any other belief, i.e. that it is just a belief and not a provable truth. This is what religious people need to teach their children. "Son, you are going to learn about Christianity. Let me first say that this is a belief, not science. There is no evidence. You must follow using faith. I also want to tell you that your Hindu friend also has a belief, and his belief is different than yours, but, like yours, it is not supported by evidence. He also follows using faith. I hope you understand that your religion and his religion are both on the same level. One has not been proven to be truer than the other. Actually, neither is supported by any evidence of any kind."
You're right. Tolerance was the wrong word to use. Teaching respect is a better way to say it. I did use the word respect earlier, and this is more how I feel.
I don't think my religion is superior. It think all peaceful religions are good. I just happen to know mine the best, and can pass this on to my son. I think if someday he wanted to convert to Judaism, I think I would be ok with that. I would probably be disappointed. But I would really try to respect it. I certainly wouldn't disown him or reject him for it! I know that for sure!
Whatever doubt I have about my religion, I have because I don't have blind faith. That may be a real failing and send me straight to Hell. I don't know. But even if, I'm still no worse off than you.
I don't claim to know which religion is the ultimate bearer of truth. How could I possibly know this? Nobody knows. I understand what you're saying, but for me, my religion is something positive in my life, that I do because it makes me feel good. There may not be any other purpose to it than that. I don't feel any need what so ever that my religion needs to be superior. I think there are good lessons to learn from the Bible, I can apply it to my everyday life. Going to Church gives me time to think and reflect. And for me, it works. I'm sure you do things that may not have an ultimate purpose, except it makes you feel good.
And in the event that my religion is right, the ultimate bearer of truth, then I'm covered. And because I really like you, I will put in a good word! I want you to go to Heaven too. : )
And if I'm wrong, I'm really no worse off than you. Am I? And the time that I spent here on earth praying to the sky creature, I enjoyed while it lasted.
Your last argument is called Pascal's Wager, i.e. the idea that it's a better bet to believe in God than not because if we are right we will go to heaven, and if we are wrong it won't make a difference.
You have a healthy relationship with religion. This is great. Sadly, it's quite rare in my experience. Most religious people I know are quite obsessed with the idea that they are right and the others are wrong. Many believe they have a special relationship with God and thus are somehow blessed more than others. In their minds, they have been saved while the others haven't.
Pascal's Wager - I did not know that. Next time I talk about my religion I can just use that to sum it all up! I always learn something useful when I talk to you. I love that! Bonus, I get to keep my religion, mostly intact. And if I'm right, I think you're definately going to Heaven. God will forgive you and I'm putting in a word.
I know what you mean though, I actually can't stand religious fanatics. I think they're stupid. Probably for the same reason that you think it's silly to worship a sky creature at all. It makes no sense. I might be wrong and go straight to Hell for thinking that too.
Which reminds me of religion in politics. It occurred to me that the Republicans use God perversely to their political advantage in order to get votes from the Christian Evangelicals. The Democrats have the Unions and the Republicans pretty much have a lock on the religious fanatics. I suspect if religious beliefs were truly banned from politics, the Republicans would have a very difficult time running on their platform of deregulation and tax policies. The only way they get away with their lies is that the Evangelicals vote based on their religious beliefs. To the exclusion of common sense.
I disagree, and it's inappropriate to select a few cases where an extremist sect indoctrinates members in anti-social views or behaviors to condemn all religion.
Civilization and Society are like living breathing creatures that evolve much in the same way as most agnostics/atheists believe man evolves. Religion has always been with us, and even several hundred years after widespread adoption of the scientific method, the DNA for religion persists. This is because it serves a purpose in the everyday lives of men.
Man is by his nature insecure; we face death from the moment of birth, and we seek meaning. It is when we face death that religion best serves us. Anyone who has lost a loved child knows how the belief they live on with God soothes the soul and let's us continue in spite of devastating loss. It may be artifice, but it works, and it provides a meaningful 'service' to man.
Religion has also been the method by which we have historically disseminated values across society. Viewed purely from an agnostic perspective, one might say that many of the values in the Christian faith are consistent with those of the earlier schools of philosophy (recall Paul went to Greece where he engaged in debate, and the New Testament is written in their language). Philosophy, however, requires a lot of mental discipline and a belief in doing right for the sake of doing right. This is incompatible with many in the general population (the use of icons in the orthodox church is, in fact, documented to serve the general rather then intellectual population by intent). Christianity, however, provides a simpler explanation and provides both the carrot (eternal life) and stick (damnation) that justifies doing right in terms comprehensible to the general population.
No matter how attained, the belief in eternal life is also key to courage. Throughout the ages, it has empowered man to stand up for what is right even in the face of death. We can argue over the definition of 'right,' but not the empowering nature of eternal life.
I believe uncorrupted religion provides an extremely important 'service' to man. I believe, in fact, that the reduction in faith across our population accounts in part for many of the ills we face today; reduced compassion and behavior up to the limit of the law without regard for what's 'right.' We should certainly 'indoctrinate' everyone in the shared values and ethics of our society, but many are better served by the 'carrot' and 'stick' approach of religion. It has always been and will always be thus.
I would love to delve into my faith with you, but that's a long topic deserving of another post. Suffice it to say that I spent the first 20 years of my life reconciling God and Science in my head. My faith incorporates both in a fashion that cannot be refuted by another.
My religion may not be 'true,' and it cannot be proven, but neither can it be disproven, and it gives me meaning, purpose, and the ability to face death. The same is true for many of my fellow men.
Wonderful post. I agree. The way I look at it, which I explained above, religious intolerance is the problem. Not religion.
Yep. The right of one man to judge another is constrained to behavior that diminishes someone else's right to pursue their life. What a man believes is judged by God, not man. Ditto for what men choose to do in the bedroom.
I find to many people today who are obsessed with their rights, but show little regard for the rights of others. The Constitution sets religion apart from government, and any discussion of making it illegal is an infringement on the rights of others.
Since you mention it, I think religion in government is a huge problem. I made a post about this earlier today. This might not be a good thread to get into it, so I'll show you. I'd be interested in what you think!
And Thras just bombarded me below with his anti-religion views! Jeesh! I know he's going to destroy me with all his logical thought that I cannot possibly hope to counter argue without relying on "faith". I'm doomed. I knew I shouldn't go there with him! : )
http://occupywallst.org/forum/doing-gods-work/#comment-580678
See my response to Thras below at http://occupywallst.org/forum/christie-takes-on-occupy-new-hampshire-hecklers/#comment-581281 and read the short paper I link to there. That comment provides the 'scientific' basis for accepting there are things beyond knowing.
Science says there are things we can't know, and my prior comment shows personal and societal benefits to assuming certain positions regarding the unknown. Why, for example, when faced with choosing between a meaningless life of no purpose resulting from random interactions versus a life of purpose and meaning, would one choose anything but purpose and meaning ? Neither can be proven or disproven, but one produces happiness and the other despair.
Faith is literally a choice from among equally valid options. In this regard, it is similar to the way we choose to be optimistic or pessimistic. We choose optimism because it's been proven to be better for us both physically and mentally. I chose Faith for the precisely the same reason.
One can argue about the form and teachings of religion as others do in the comments below. I don't care because I don't subscribe to anyone's religion in particular. Mine is personal and it emerged from extensive study of all religions combined with study of philosophy, psychology, and physics. I often use the Christian language to explain my faith in terms most Americans can understand, but it's deeper than that. My Faith is deep and personal. It cannot be fully conveyed to another.
I'll reply in more depth tomorrow. For now, let me just say a few things.
My nephews are not part of an extremist sect. They are Javanese muslims which are very likely to be the most lax muslims in the world.
Many anthropologists and philosophers do not consider that religions existed at the beginning of mankind. They precede the age of religion with an age in which people worshipped their ancestors, not Gods.
This is an artifice, but it you need it to feel better, than so be it. I certainly don't because I feel that my life is beautiful enough as is. I don't have to add unprovable myths to make myself feel good. The fact that a belief can't be disproven is of little worth. You can't disprove the existence of miniature pink fairies dancing the Polka up in the clouds. So what? Does that make that idea worth thinking about? I don't think so.
Little pink fairies don't sooth the spirit or communicate values. Religion and Faith do. That's what makes them worth thinking about.
Furthermore, you seem uncomfortable accepting the idea that there are limits to what man can know. I am a life-long fan of physics, for example, but will never say it describes complete truth. It is simply a precise definition of what a given man will perceive. It's very useful, but cannot be proven to be all encompassing.
Read the article from Scientific American at http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=limits-on-human-comprehension . As far as I'm concerned, the limits of knowledge are obvious, but some need to hear it from 'scientists.'
You don't need religion to communicate values. Actually, I think it's much better to communicate values without religion. Religions teach values by giving intermediary reasons as to why you should do or not do one thing. You shouldn't steal because it's one of the ten commandments and you will be punished by going to hell if you do! That's weak because if the person stops believing at one point, he will no longer have a reason not to steal. It's much better to explain this value without using religion, but by explaining that stealing is wrong because it creates problems in society etc....
Some people use religion to sooth the idea that they will die. Some people use drugs. I use logic. I understand that death is final, and I understand that this is the best possible outcome. Living eternally would be the most boring thing in the world. It would be the most horrible punishment.
I already argued that society should teach ethics and the rational for them more fully to propagate it's values that serve to fill the gaps in law. Some will remain who need a 'carrot' and a 'stick.' If you had children, you'd know that.
You can have 'faith' in your logic. That's your choice, and I will make no effort to make the religion of 'logic' illegal. Please do not advocate making mine illegal.
By the way, you constrain the divine with human views (anthropocentrism) when you say eternal life would be boring. You presume you'd still endure as a separate entity apart from God and thinking like a human. This error is similar to the one made when people imagine God as a human, and that's one reason some religions prohibit naming God anything other than 'that which is eternal and unknown;' the act of naming implies you are capable of comprehending Him, and that leads to projection of human properties on the divine.
Also see my response to April at http://occupywallst.org/forum/christie-takes-on-occupy-new-hampshire-hecklers/#comment-581310 .
I don't rely on faith when I follow or use science.
You fool yourself.
They track members that try to leave the church. You may leave but you have to jump through hoops to get them to leave you the hell alone and even then.........
This accounts for their numbers.
A church that calls, visits, talks, and otherwise seeks to remain in contact with folks who have 'strayed' so they can be 'saved' is hardly a cult. Mainstream churches do that all the time. It's called 'follow-up'.
We call that stalking.
The word 'stalking' has a negative connotation that the stalker intends harm, and the church seeks to aid rather than harm. It may be annoying, but it is not dangerous or threatening. Mere annoyance doesn't qualify a church as a 'cult.'
Please don't dismiss the experience and opinions of former mormons. Many of us consider the church to be a cult, while still acknowledging the many good parts of the religion, culture and people. (See my post above at : http://occupywallst.org/forum/christie-takes-on-occupy-new-hampshire-hecklers/#comment-581068 ). I think it is hard for someone who hasn't experienced it, to really understand.
This is a cult. You don't have to agree with it, you don't have to like it but I am quite sure that if you investigated it, then it would become apparent. Churches that track you, your parents or your children qualify as stalking. Especially, when it occurs after x amount of years. We call that stalking. I am well aware of the PR attempt through NPR.
not gonna happen dems out number gop 3 ot 1
Romney looks best on TV.
He gets the nod, for NO other reason.
excellent...him and Christie would be a killer ticket... Christie and Romney 2012 !!
If this happened I think I would commit suicide, I would take a counter seat at Dunkin Donuts and continuously eat donuts until I exploded!
Cool.
Let the World see what fascist pigs still look like.
The sad part is, those two bozos won't even be able to get the trains to run on time.
What Christy have a coronary and Mitten pop an aneurism? Yah I guess that could be termed as a killer ticket.
you are very negative,,,We got through almost 4 years w/ the current crackhead.
Yes replace crack head with Donut Hole!
LaraL you have no grounding in reality. Seek medical help and then seek an education, consider it a part of your therapy.
Done it all....and learned that being a liberal is a true mental disorder. Thank God..I got away from those psycho's. You might want to go to rehab for your personality disorder.
I bet the heels on you platforms come to a razor sharp point that you force into the exposed buttock flesh of those male leather bound pigs that you dominate!
wow. That's an awesome thought.
Is that you Ms. Coulter?
Your "radiation health bath" is ready.
Just like you said, it's all natural.
Please watch your step, while getting in, you don't want to slip.
So that's how you did it, you pushed her while "helping" her into the tub.
That poor wife of yours.
Whatever. Thanks for sharing ( nothing ). Be sure to stop back in when you have nothing more to add.
So, just so we are clear here, you are not the least bit interested in his political stance is. Correct?
what are you talking about girlfriday? You are on too much med's....maybe?? or maybe you need more. What don't you get?
You heard me the first time. You are not the least bit interested in Romney's political stance, are you?
We have a moral responsibility not to spend more than we take in. Bottom line freakyfriday. now get lost.
Maybe an intellectual responsibility. I wouldn't call it moral though
I disagree...think about it....we all ready are passing on so much debt to future generations....it is immoral
Explain how it is everyone else's fault that the government is in debt because citizens, as far as I know, don't actually have any debt on the government level, only personal debt accumulated by their own actions.
Exactly, they always (politicians) describe the debt as "taxpayer Debt" Don't hang that sh_it on us!
I never did. Its poor policy on the government parts.
If I may take this digression one step further, I think we all remember that during the Clinton Administration, our national debt was (or at least was well on it's way to being) paid off. Military bases were closed, municipalities around those bases became ghost towns, the government was "reorganized", reductions if force occured, etc. There were significant sacrifices made by people in the name of reducing the national debt. Now 15 years down the road, we're right back where we were in the mid-nineties and worse. As someone said, the definition of insanity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.
Yes people of this country are going to have make sacrifices in order to solve our problems. And at this point it may take more than one generation.
There is nothing moral about you. You lack the capacity to debate Romney's politics. You have the intellect of a gnat.
Have a blessed day!
I can debate the GOP as a group, a bunch of millionaires who want to retain greater and greated power through favors that they grant to large corporations and wall street that they inturn receive "Campaign Contributions" for.
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Are you telling me you do not know how to do it one on one?
What's to debate..... one on one or otherwise! They all came out of the same mold, wake up!
Oh, I agree.
I thought you were a Romney supporter or backer.....supporter sounds like a jock strap!
I don't back Romney. I think he is a jack ass.
Staples..freakin staples...average salary 7 to 10 hr. Who the hell can live on that kind of money. And the media treats him like light shines out of his ass hole! He closes down the businesses with the high paying union jobs and gives us thousands of low paying crap retail jobs!
I don't like the man. He is destructive to his society AND he tells you that he aligns himself with those very same destructive elements. There are no excuses.
that's not being nice to the gnat... your intellect must be on par w/ a dead worm
LaraL may as well try campaigning for an argyle write-in candidate. None of the other socks have even tried to show that they can be an original thinker.
Good point.
Yo waz up Girl Friday? Are u going be hanging in NYC tomorrow?
LaraL is not going to talk about Mitten's politics as Mitten does not know where He stands.
Honestly, I don't think it is capable of discussing Romney's politics.
Cheerleader without a clue.
Looks to be about the size of it.
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The shouting down is on the protesters part. They're the ones that make a point, but then won't listen for an answer. They're the ones that shout slogans time after time, long after the point is made.
NJ is broken. It's broken because of unions and borrowed money. It's broken because of people like Ducharme that forgot somewhere along the way that government is supposed to operate for the benefit of its citizens, not just its employees.
I think NJ is "broke" because of the inability and/or lack of desire to pay for that which is required in order to maintain and serve it's citizens. There seems to be a great deal of the "hooray for me and the hell with everybody else" mentality going around, not just in NJ, but all over.
No, it's what's required in order to serve its EMPLOYEES. The purpose of government shifted away from serving its people and to merely serving its workers a long time ago.
Could you provide any links that would underpin your assertion?
You're a grown up, do it yourself. Unions resist virtually every reform there is. It isn't just here, it's the same thing in Europe. Look at Wisconsin, it's a great example. When the unions didn't get their way with their bosses, they leapt at a recall campaign to try to change their bosses. They're voting quite clearly and directly as citizens, not to boost their interests as citizens, but to bolster their situation as employees. Government meeting the needs of its employees takes primacy over meeting the needs of its citizens. Wrestling it back for the citizens is a monumental task fought by the unions at every turn.
In your reply to me you're refering to limitations placed on Wisconsin state workers' rights to collectively bargain on non-wage issues, correct? As far as the "you're a grown-up, do it yourself" thing...you're the one who wrote about serving "...it's EMPLOYEES", not I. I thought I could make the attempt at seeing this through your "lens", and so I requested information from you that perhaps I might not have access to for any number of reasons. Have a great day!
EDIT: State employees in Wisconsin includes teachers, as I'm sure you're aware.
You have the internet. Use it. I'm not your librarian.
Yes, I realize that teachers are involved too in Wisconsin. I know they pull the "it's for the children" bullshit as some perverse shield for their excesses.
Non-wage issues ultimately are wage issues. Non-wage issues underscore basic elements of who runs the workplace, the people via management or the employees. Non-wage issues are about productivity. They're just as important as wages themselves.
Wisconsin was ripe for reform. The unions didn't like the result, so they hit the polls. Use your little computer and google on the Wisconsin recalls. They spin their cap around and use their role as voter to get what they want as employee. They elect their bosses and have terribly corrupted the system. It's badly broken. Unions advocate for higher taxes, simply because they work there.
there is no need to hear response from repelicans - for we know they will lie - we can tell they will lie - as soon as they wag their tongues.
Why are you here?
To debate politics. I know OWSers don't like to know that most people disagree and debate doesn't go over real well, but we're here. As long as you self-importantly claim to represent 99% and not the more honest 5%, people like me are here.
Shout-downs are a cheap substitute for debate and ideas.
This is not a general political debate forum. This is specifically an OWS forum.
"Why are you here" is a legitimate question, pointing out that if your post does not try to further, even if via critique, OWS, it is entirely inappropriate. Coming here to grandiosely let everyone know you are opposed to OWS is nothing more than gate-crashing.
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What gets boring is the people blindly supporting the Republican party. I would expect to see present supporters of the Rep.Party sending a firestorm of complaints to those in office as well as to those running for office. Supporting inaction is not a good thing.
http://realrepubs.com/video/12
When the Tea Party targeted establishment GOP candidates in 2010, they were referred to as Tea Baggers and Racists amid claims that they were "astroturf" and mainly "old, white, Republicans". These same people are not letting Romney walk away with the nomination; they are continually casting "not Romney" votes in the polls.....
When the Tea Party members attended Town Halls and held their politicians accountable, they were called "rude" and "agitators" and "mobs". Now that OWS is using the "peoples mic" to disrupt and shout down the politicians, it is considered the right thing to do....
The hypocrisy of all of this is sometimes mind boggling.
And when the teabagge(R)s hold town halls, they want to charge admission.
Their hypocrisy is indeed mind boggling.
Teabagge(r)s raised my taxes!!!
They are (R)epelicans with silly hats!!!
More misinformation.
Admission fees are not for "Town Halls", they are for organized opportunities for speeches...i.e. various Associations - these are "private" speeches and/or fundraising events.
Even if you were correct that "Town Halls" required an admission fees, you are speaking of politicians and not the Tea Party itself - which is made up of individuals who do not hold public office for the most part.
Charging admission is not something new - in fact, Melissa Bean - a Democrat - was accused of doing the same thing..........in 2009
Town Hall Breakfast meeting with Congresswoman Melissa Bean. Hear her positions on Healthcare, Railroads, Taxes and more. Questions and answers following. Multi-Chamber event.
Includes Full Breakfast. Advance registration required. $25 per person. Includes full breakfast. RSVP required by August 24.
Then she changed it to "Chamber Breakfast" after the news broke!
How did "Teabaggers" raise your taxes?
I don't care who does it, charging for town halls is wrong.
Even if you get a sandwich.
If you don't know "how" teabagge(r)s raised my taxes, you haven't been paying attention.
They are NOT charging for Town Halls, they are holding speaking gigs at places where it is customary for admission to be charged. To present it otherwise is to spread misinformation.
No, I have been paying quite close attention to things nationally. IF a "teabagger" raised your taxes, then it must be a local issue....for isn't it the mantra of the Obama Administration that he lowered taxes for 95% of Americans?
If you cannot prove that a "teabagger" increased your taxes, then you might just want to stop saying it.
It's a fact, so I won't stop reminding you.
Teabagge(r)s raised my taxes.
Yes they did.
They did it to offset, yet another corporate tax break.
In a State that was already among the lowest in corporate taxes.
Teabagge(r)s are a nasty, lying, hateful bunch.
I can only surmise that their backers are politically lazy.
You don't name your state, so your "fact" cannot be backed up.
You don't state which taxes have been raised, so your "fact" cannot be backed up.
Some could construe that as you being the liar what say?
Awwwww.
Can't figure it out?
Teabagge(r)s never could, figure out much.
Most still think Reagan never raised taxes.
He did.
This has been a test of the teabagge(r) intelligence network.
You failed.
Teabagge(R)s raised my taxes.
No, you don't supply information needed to "intelligently" process the "facts" you supposedly are reporting..........
Nice try deflecting the fact that you can't back up your statement that "teabaggers" raised your taxes.
You teabaggers will have to use your tremendous powers, of government watching to figure it out.
I've watched what teabagge(R)s have done, in my State and others.
You have not.
That's the bottom line.
You didn't pay much attention beyond the press releases.
Shame on you, not on me.
Teabagge(R)s raised my taxes!!!!
Again, you don't name your state or the others in which you claim that "teabaggers" are responsible for tax increases. You are asking that your "fact" be taken on faith to be one in which some truth resides.
If you truly wanted to convince others that your statement that "teabaggers" have increased your taxes, you would provide sourcing to at least try to see the truth. Instead, you cry "shame" on one who is asking you to provide the sourcing. Methinks the "shame" lies on you.
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"It's broken because of unions and borrowed money. It's broken because of people like Ducharme that forgot somewhere along the way that government is supposed to operate for the benefit of its citizens, not just its employees."
The above that you have written is not debate material. Please do let me know when you return to anything worthy of political debate.
You quote!! "It's broken because of unions and borrowed money" That is one reason why there should be no unions, they have about destroyed the US already. They were once useful but now they are going the way of the dinosaur
Destroyed?????????
Get off the RuperRush Juice.
You want to tell me how they "destroyed" our auto industry?
Where do you get this crap?
You start a small business and the first person you hire needs to be the union leader. I don't care if you do it with your money or put your home up for collateral. Let everyone know how it went in six months.
Most of the other frogs I've met, don't think that shallow.
Too much Atrazine?
I see, yet another talker that can't walk it.
hell, start one without a union and see how well you do with minimum wage at 18/hr and do make sure you provide benefits for all employed
right, ain't happening
just talk
Why would I want to do that?
I'm retired, and caring for my disabled wife.
You really need to lay off the Atrazine. It's affecting your hormones.
I hear there's a lot of it in RupertRush Juice.
I have no idea what you are talking about and don't care. I'm sure your wife is disabled mentally from suffering you unless you likely were physically abusive to her, it's only right you should be her maid and beaotch. BTW.... what breed is she and is she papered other than being another dependent welfare/medicaid leech?
Why YOU WON'T DO what you think everyone else should is because you lack the spine to have your own business, which is why you've never been anything more than a minion on somebody else's time clock.
Otherwise, you'd have more real world empathy towards people who do provide good jobs and understand how many good people lost everything due to public ownership of companies and labor unions.
I won't have anyone work for me that doesn't have a vested interest in my company and their job, nor will I accept investment money from any entities who do not work in my company. Incorporated, but, no publicly owned shares and nobody has ever even remotely entertained forming a union.
I bet you are one of the majority 99%ers that plays the stock market NASDAQ ponies and gambles the S&P like most degenerates. Protest greed yet you have your money in their crooked hands to extract wealth from the actual work of others, who are often underpaid and without any benefits.
Save your empty rhetoric, you're a hypocritical leech like many others here.
Now you insult my wife??????
And then speak of empathy?????
The body of your post is assumption based hyperbole, and you accuse me of being rhetorical?
Froggy, you're almost a laugh, but your really a cry.
You insult most anyone who doesn't hump your socialist lefty union gobbling point of view. Get over it and learn to get what you give, punk.
Then you're idiot ass plays the grammar Nazi that seemingly above doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're".
Typical union inept fool.
You insulted my wife!!!!!!!!!!!
You have no class!!!!!
You have no intelligence!!!
You have nothing more to say!!!!!
You have shown the blackness of your heart!!!!!!
I did indeed and the same applies for you 10X on behalf of everyone else you've insulted. Pinhead.
Unionized auto workers pissed and moaned every year or so until they got a higher raise. They also demanded premium insurance etc. Unions in the past were useful and today they mainly protect the useless worker. In fact unions of today love to have members that are lazy. If you want to see what the unions did to the auto industry then go to either Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, MI. The higher cost has resulted in a lot of US jobs going overseas
Every year???????
They got 3% in the last contract, after being frozen for almost 10 years.
You just spew FLAKESnews style crap.
You should spend a a decade or two on an assembly line, learn some reality..............If that's possible.
Learn reality on an assembly line? Like how to be an over-paid nimbot with no critical thinking ability required?
You're out there with the rest of the mediocrity.
Why are so many fearful of owning part of the company they work for instead of thinking they are entitled to more than they produce for just showing up with a weak pulse?
More assumption.
=
More hyperbole.
=
More ignorance.
Plus you insulted my wife.
I see, your goldbricking inept ass is the only one with license to insult people?
I see no denial nor do I see you opening a business with a union work force.
Screw you frog brain!!!!!!!!!
You insulted my wife!!!!
YOU are the lowest of the low.
You eat flies and spit out lies!!!!!
whateva....... my condolences and sympathies to your wife for putting up with your childish ass
I took engineer tours of many UAW plants and watched 3-5 alleged adults, being paid 30+ an hour with fat bennies, taking 2 hours to accomplish, with clean and shiny new parts, what the same factory paid ONE line technician 0.5 hours at typically less than 20/hr flatrate with slim bennies, to diagnose and fix on a greasy FUBAR rig.
Dealer techs have to know their shit and be able to perform. The UAW idiots come out of high school, barely literate and inept fools, and go on to make 100K a year working the Union way.
Don't even get me started on the Aviation Unions and their abuse of government contracts paid for by gouged and reamed citizens.
I know complete morons that make 250K+/year building military planes that couldn't pass an actual 8th grade proficiency test. Show up on Sunday for triple time, be there 45 minutes and the guy in front of you on the line has a technical problem, leave and get paid triple time for the whole day. Shit like that.
And none of the cowards walked off their jobs when Regan fired the air traffic controllers, that's when I lost all respect for labor unions.
I worked in a union shop for 12 years and I know what it is all about. The shop closed after 12 years and it was because of the union. They like you say protected the lazy no good workers that constantly demanded more money better benefits, etc. I own my own business now (non union)
If my crew even hinted at forming a union, I'd reply by severing them all, with prejudice, and replacing them instantly. They seem rather happy and I've never heard any such garbage.
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Wrong answer. Because the GOP (and some Democrats) elected officials have raided the pension funds is no reason to kick the unions to the curb.
Wrong answer because the unions enabled workers to cry and pout until there demands were made. Unions in the past were useful and today they mainly protect the lazy worker
Do you have a job???
Yes I do, I am a business owner and at my shop there is no union
Why do you have such a lack of clarity?
Are you a lazy owner?
I worked in a unionized shop for 12 years as an industrial journeyman electrician, until the shop closed. So please do not tell me how good unions are because I had plenty of experience with them.
I have over 30 years at Ford.
Yeah, some skilled trades were lazy whiny bums.
Scared of actual work.
That is the point that I was trying to make. If there is all good workers then yes union is good. But as you have seen it also that some of the workers were lazy yet the union kept them in their position regardless
Actually, it was management that was lazy.
It was management that "destroyed" the auto industry.
It was management that tore off reject tags and sent bad parts to the assembly line.
I asked many supervisors, and the few superintendents, who were personable enough, why they "chose" to go into management.
Each and ever one of them said they did so because they didn't want to work.
Because they were lazy.
That's a given but don't try and play like being a UAW assembly line worker is anything that minimum wage illegals can't do. Intelligence isn't required, only the ability to follow orders with reasonably capable hands.
I like Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham
I call BS.
Not that you can produce, or ever have produced, anything but keystrokes and tepid rhetoric with your community planning Education Connection laser printed degree.
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FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 26, 2011, 3:23 p.m. EST (delete) It gets me bothered to read you ranting about Fracking.
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 26, 2011, 10:27 a.m. EST (delete) Oh, and I think you vaporize the "reply" button with your mystical powers.
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 26, 2011, 10:20 a.m. EST (delete) I'm sorry, you cannot lawfully decline without acknowledging the nearly 100 million dollars financed abroad to pay for the revolutionary war, with the debt being discharged during Andy's term. BTW.... I watched several of the nation's well respected political talking heads discussing their inability, along with those of top law review groups, to comprehend and understand exactly what is meant by many pieces of legislation, like Obamacare for instance, of which you seem more than a little flippant about how easy most of these laws are for reasonable people to understand. Hell, most people don't have time to read so many novels, even if they weren't written in artfully deceptive legalese, economistjibber, insuranceblather, medicalatin, etc... I say you are full of it and I shall perform a hedonistic cleansing on our honeymoon. Where are we going?
GirlFriday said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 9:58 p.m. EST (delete) I'm sorry, but again, thank you for the offer but, I will have to decline.
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 9:24 p.m. EST (delete) Excellent, I make sure the tank is full and I'll drive because my night vision is of xrayted superhero caliber.
I'm stuffed to the point of dullness and think I shall retire for the evening. I am still waiting for your affirmative answer. ;-)
GirlFriday said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 3:19 p.m. EST (delete) I never behave. :)
GirlFriday said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 3:18 p.m. EST (delete) As lovely as your offer is, I will have to decline. Thank you very much for asking.
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 2:42 p.m. EST (delete) Damnit! I forgot the 72 VW tin top camper with a hopped up big mota that makes it do wheel stands. I'll let you drive it if you promise to behave.
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 2:16 p.m. EST (delete) Oh, ferocious and very protective blue puppies included too
FrogWithWings said 2 weeks ago at Dec. 25, 2011, 2:15 p.m. EST (delete) I'll consider not voting for Ron Paul IF, you have my babies and we'll home school them. Included in the package, a 31' cabin cruiser, big house paid for although I'd like to build an off-the-grid earth ship, other various pleasure toys, and a kitchen proficient man who isn't afraid of vacuum cleaners or washing machines, yet can still design and build things worthy of the label, "QOL enchancing performing art".
Think about that, deals like that don't come around often.
FrogWithWings said 3 weeks ago at Dec. 15, 2011, 12:21 p.m. EST (delete) Ok, Kerberos works and I dig it. Thanks again, you took a load off your seemingly political nemesis, this week.
Truly, I have my doubts if Dr Paul will be able to restore the pre-1871 Constitution without being assassinated, however, if it can be done (and of course changing minor things like "reasonable man" to "reasonable man or woman" as well as a few other details to insure attorneys do not hold public office and slavery of course, is no longer legal... you'll never convince me it would be the wrong way to go.
Having done much legal battle in our courts, the return of common law and Constitutional Courts would be a huge benefit to all.
Anyhow, thanks again on the name help. Somehow I knew you'd be the one to ask since it is obvious, even though I have no idea what you really suggest to be a viable solution, you have a sexy brain just the same. Nibbling on it bore fruit! ;-)
FrogWithWings said 3 weeks ago at Dec. 15, 2011, 12:13 p.m. EST (delete) Chantico sticks for the girl for sure. I had to investigate the meaning and origin. Thanks. I'm kicking about Cerberus as I have a hard time rolling it off my supermodel perfect lips. Yes, you knew it all along, I am a lip, ear lobe and big toe supermodel.
GirlFriday said 3 weeks ago at Dec. 15, 2011, 11:54 a.m. EST (delete) Hmmmmm.................Cerberus and Chantico
FrogWithWings said 3 weeks ago at Dec. 15, 2011, 11:37 a.m. EST (delete) Help me name my puppies or I'll likely throw a temper tantrum.
See, more tepid rhetoric. That's all.
You will need to develop a reasonable argument. Thus far you have only had a wingnut conspiracy theory to offer. Come back to play when you have something worthwhile to debate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxYDnYgQ5MQ
You need to learn how to produce just anything of value.
No in fact I do very well unlike you I do not set in the park and pout all day long
One doesn't "set", in a park.
One sits in a park.
I'll bet your business is booming.
That's a startling lack of a grasp English.
Do you also get your secretary to type for you?
Lazy boy?
I call BS.
Wrong answer.
You couldn't wait to get your hands on the money and now you want to figure out how to get out of paying what is owed.
That quote nails it. New Jersey is a mess, just like Illinois, as the public employee unions chock it to death. Their answer: higher taxes and more debt. Christie's answer: reform before it truly is too late.
Government union employees advocate for a bigger and more costly government, not for any benefit as citizens, but simply because they work there. It's broken.
Sorry to burst in on your group think fantasy of representing the "99%".
Just so we are clear. New Jersey decided not to contribute to the pension fund as they were supposed to for ....how many years? New Jersey has taken money out of the pension fund and used it for something else how many times? Yet, you maintain that it is the unions fault?
You have all of these people that have x amount of money taken out of their checks to be put into a pension. Starting under Whitman who decided to shift the money into other things for election applause you began to encounter problems. Then there is Orin Kramer who shifted some $72 million into private money managers that forced retired pensioners into a hell of a loss. The deal was that if they could make some "quick money" then they wouldn't have to pay back all the money that had 1)not been paid and 2)raided from the fund.
Not to mention that the majority of the people that work in the public sphere do not receive overtime. They receive something called comp time, yeah? This is called one more way that you have figured out how not to pay the public employees.
It should be noted that GirlFriday leaves out parts of the story...i.e. that this issue didn't start with Republican Whitman but with Democrat Florio. When she names Orin Kramer in the same paragraph as she does Whitman, she leaves out that he was appointed by Democrat McGreevey.
And the use of the word "you" in the last sentence is questionable. Does she believe that DependentClass wrote the laws regarding comp time vs overtime himself?
In 1990 the country was hit by a recession, and the new Democratic governor, James Florio, responded with a wildly unpopular $2.8 billion income and sales tax increase to balance the budget. Two years later, facing another budget shortfall, he turned to the state pension system for help. With almost unanimous support in the legislature, he pushed through the Pension Revaluation Act of 1992.
We'll spare you the minutiae of pension accounting and just say that the law permitted the state to recognize investment gains in the fund more quickly than under previous rules. It also lifted the projected rate of return on the fund's investments to 8.75% from 7% (since lowered to 8.25%). These "adjustments" had a big impact: According to an official Benefits Review Task Force report published in 2005, they allowed the state to cut its pension contributions by more than $1.5 billion in 1992 and 1993.
Republican Christine Todd Whitman, running on a tax-cutting platform, defeated Florio in the 1993 governor's race. To help pay for her promised tax cuts, Whitman, like her predecessor, turned to the pension fund. In 1994, at her urging, the legislature adopted another pension "reform" act that allowed her to reduce state and local contributions to the plan by nearly $1.5 billion in 1994 and 1995, according to the task force report. Florio's and Whitman's accounting changes were "the one-two punch from which the retirement system has never recovered," says Douglas Forrester, who was the assistant state treasurer under Kean. ...
Democrat James McGreevey, who became governor in 2002, hoped that professional money managers would improve the plan's returns. At the time New Jersey was the only state other than Texas to run its pension fund without outside help.
McGreevey appointed Orin Kramer, a money manager who had been finance chair of his unsuccessful 1997 gubernatorial campaign, as head of the State Investment Council, which sets policy for the pension plan. Kramer pushed the council to turn over some of the fund's assets to Wall Street professionals and to diversify into alternative investments such as hedge funds and private equity. But it took time for Kramer to devise a strategy and put it into action, so money didn't flow to alternative investments until 2006, on the eve of the bear market that would crush nearly all asset categories.
It should be noted that Concerned failed to pull the source for his lengthy essay which in turn leaves out the whole story. You will find that story here: http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/12/news/economy/benner_pension.fortune/index.htm
"And the use of the word "you" in the last sentence is questionable. Does she believe that DependentClass wrote the laws regarding comp time vs overtime himself?"
I firmly believe that DependentClass is completely and totally aware of exactly what the issues are but is refusing to acknowledge them.
Thank you GirlFriday for posting the source, which of course, shows that you indeed did leave out of your portrait of the issue those Democrat's who also share responsibility for the pension issue faced by New Jersey.
Again, did DependentClass WRITE the laws that allow comp vs overtime pay for the employees of the state of New Jersey? Your use of the word "you" implies that he/she did....which is a separate issue from whether or not he/she is "completely and totally aware" of what the issues may be.
No problem, Concerned, as it shows that you decided to extract only that information that you felt was vital pertaining to the discussion and thus taking it out of context.
Again, DependentClass knows precisely what issues are at stake as do you. Notice that I have also used the word YOU here as well. Your attempt to detract attention from the issues at stake is duly noted, however, I will not allow YOU to spin the shit to meaninglessness simply because you disagree with the points being made.
Taking what out of context? The fact that the issue of pension raiding began under a DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR of the state of New Jersey.
How is that out of context with your post - which was about the raiding of the pension fund? Methinks you are reaching a bit....
Equal sharing of the responsibility for what ails this country is only meaningless to those who want to blame it all on one side.........
That is what I thought.
[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (2667) 5 hours ago Wrong answer. Because the GOP (and some Democrats) elected officials have raided the pension funds is no reason to kick the unions to the curb. ↥like ↧dislike reply edit delete permalink
What does the above say? Huh?
Now, are you actually going to address the raiding of the pension fund or is this your way of distracting to where the actual point doesn't matter? If I was a betting woman that is where I would lay my money.
I did not respond to the statement you posted above...if you'll note the thread outline, I responded to the following:
GirlFriday wrote - "Just so we are clear. New Jersey decided not to contribute to the pension fund as they were supposed to for ....how many years? New Jersey has taken money out of the pension fund and used it for something else how many times? Yet, you maintain that it is the unions fault?
You have all of these people that have x amount of money taken out of their checks to be put into a pension. Starting under Whitman who decided to shift the money into other things for election applause you began to encounter problems. Then there is Orin Kramer who shifted some $72 million into private money managers that forced retired pensioners into a hell of a loss. The deal was that if they could make some "quick money" then they wouldn't have to pay back all the money that had 1)not been paid and 2)raided from the fund.
Not to mention that the majority of the people that work in the public sphere do not receive overtime. They receive something called comp time, yeah? This is called one more way that you have figured out how not to pay the public employees."
My response to you was in context to that posting for which my reply was written - as that post regarded how the pension funds began to be raided.
IF you want to pick hairs, then yes - you did appear to have written (some democrats) in an earlier post written by you - however, since you left out party affiliation and the Democrat who started the whole process of pension raiding in your next post, then my reply was in context to how the issue began...........
Here is what you wrote next (and the part to which I was replying):
"Starting under Whitman who decided to shift the money into other things for election applause you began to encounter problems"
You wrote "starting under Whitman" when it actually started under Florio. And neglected to mention that the next person after Whitman you blamed was appointed by a Democrat Governor..........
So, in reality - of the four politicians mainly responsible for pension raiding - 3 of them were Democrats.
Now, that we've established the context of my post as it pertained to your post under which it was written.....and the fact that both parties are responsible for it........what would you like to discuss?
That pension raiding is wrong? It is. That it simply kicked the can down the road to where the state is now? It did. Those points are clear and do not need to be debated.
What is relevant now is how to fix it...is there somewhere within this thread that you address the fix rather than just the issue?
[-] 1 points by DependentClass (58) 7 hours ago That quote nails it. New Jersey is a mess, just like Illinois, as the public employee unions chock it to death. Their answer: higher taxes and more debt. Christie's answer: reform before it truly is too late. Government union employees advocate for a bigger and more costly government, not for any benefit as citizens, but simply because they work there. It's broken. Sorry to burst in on your group think fantasy of representing the "99%". ↥like ↧dislike reply permalink
Planning on correcting his ass or do you mind if I do it?
Go for it. And then we'll see if anything needs adding.
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Oh, but I am. Born that way. I just don't fit into your Little House on the Prairie mold.
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Maybe they should just raise taxes and shovel that money at the unions too. LOL. That's what the union supports. At some point, that'll be all that's left. Citizens that don't happen to work for the government at some point simply get sick of it. Then, the union can try to tax itself.
It's time for reform. Christie represents this. The unions represent insolvency.
Not a viable response. You forget that those people that work for the government also pay taxes and when their pensions are raided and they are repeatedly asked to do without ALSO get fed up. They are counting on people like you to pay attention.
No, they're counting on people like me NOT to pay attention. They'd prefer to use their union and its influence to elect pliable negotiating partners that'll hand over even more of the store. They've erected a public benefits edifice that's collapsing. And the tone deaf unions and the union employees have the balls to tell taxpayers already dinged up by the recession to fork over even more so that their retirements remain untouched.
It's a fight for the mission of government. Is it to exist for its citizens or just the people that work there? Places like New Jersey and Illinois seem clearly to be siding with the employees. Wisconsin and Indiana have a shot that citizens can end the corruption and take things back, but their fate remains uncertain.
Government workers do pay taxes, that's true. But how dumb to you have to be not to understand the lopsided incentives they face. Sure, they get pinched by higher taxes. But they benefit much more by bloating government. For every dollar they bloat government, they give back 8 or 10 cents in state taxes. Unions and their employees are constant advocates for a larger government and higher taxes, not for any benefit as citizens, but merely to pad their situations as employees. It's broken.
Even the liberal icon FDR knew better than to unleash government unions. He was right.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Did you pay attention to raiding of the pension funds?
Read this: http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf
If a dollar was put in the bank for every time you post, "Why are you here?" we would not need this movement.
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unjoin!
You joined Jan 8th? I dont understand. I joined back a few weeks after this site started. I get kicked because, the people on here want to be Kings and rule what other say or thing just like a corporation does to its employees. I log back in with another name. So you posting Jan 8 was a pretty idiot thing to do,,,, BOSS LADY. Can I have my minimum paycheck now?
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How did you get kicked off of here? Down votes haven't been known to kick someone off the forum. You are the idiot. Or are you the idiot that forgot his password?
I ran an internet service with 10,000+ members for five years. I DONT FORGET passwords and you cant be an idiot. What is your excuse?
Yeah, sure.
I don't have an alt, sweet pea.
I forgot my password once :(
Awww.....:(
But, you didn't act like an ass either.
More Occupy parasites. What proud Americans these delusional jerk offs must think they are.
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As opposed to you an unAmerican delusion bottom-feeder.
Now,now no need to be so hard on yourself.
You should work on your skillz moar.
I'm sorry I glanced at your lame post so quickly that I didn't realize you were actually trying to insult me.
"skillz moar"? Having an off night?
Your a known troll and you need to work on your skillz moar.
Thank you I won't take that in to consideration.
Then remain the boring troll that you have become.
Yes I can tell,you're so very bored.
"skillz moar" Did you get that off some cheezy Jay Z rap album or just make that up yourself?
Go Governor Christie! We support you!
"Really?" Christie replied, laughing. "Something may go down tonight, but it's not going to be jobs, sweetheart."
This is Christie taking on protesters? Sounds like He's having problems with His Viagra. If you have an -------- lasting over 4 hours contact your Doctor.
Give him a chance. You are so negative. Look @ what he's already accomplished in NJ. It is remarkable for the crucial fact that he is the governor of a deep-blue, union-friendly state. Given the difficulty of governing as a conservative in New Jersey, Christie's accomplishments are among the most impressive of any governor. In his first year, Christie closed a massive deficit without raising taxes, working with a Democratic legislature. He followed up on that victory by signing a 2 percent property tax growth cap, a measure similar to a tax cap that has proven to be a significant restraint on government spending in Massachusetts. This year, Christie signed a public employee benefits reform bill that limits collective bargaining by workers for benefits, raises the retirement age, requires a greater employee contribution for benefits, and suspends automatic cost of living allowances. Overall, according to Christie, the reform will save the state $130 billion. While the state's public employee pension fund is still badly underfunded, Christie deserves credit for taking the first step toward bringing New Jersey's long-term liabilities into line with its revenues. The underfunding of public workers' pensions and health care benefits is sort of the analogue to the long-term entitlements problem on the national stage. Christie's experience would prepare him well to take on the debt issue
I don't always have a prooblem with the way Christie handles New Jersey, I have a problem with the disrespectful way he treats people who have a different view than him. I have heard him verbally beat down older individuals who called him out on problems in their lives. It's his way or no way a lot of the time.
oh please...we need somebody with some guts..I don't care if they are verbally aggressive...I think that is a plus...do you know that the word nice....originally meant stupid? (check word origins). Don't drink the koolaid
You forgot Quote "main stream media"
hey waz up Paul? missed chatting w/ you. hope u r doin fine. Get Obama out in 2012!!!
and replace him with a person that would not invoke indefinite detention without disclosure
Obama is the one who wants indefinite detention, etc. Obama signed the Act chiefly because he said it benefited crucial services for service members and their families, and vital national security programs that must be renewed. Said he had serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists.
I am not convinced that secrecy is vital for security
congress passed it goes a little beyond the president
I don't think that the government is concerned that you are not convinced of the vitality of secrecy, Matt..focus on one thing, >>>Getting Obama and his beast of wife out of the White house in November.
the government should be transparent
Yeah..yeah ....and I should have turquoise wings..and pink shoes studded with diamonds and pearls.
just be honest
Brother..what are you smoking? Your observations and wishes although honorable, are down right ridiculous and unrealistic. You must be about twenty or twenty one...and are you in school?
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Austerity for everyone but the wealthy, right? Hitler's accomplishments were pretty impressive too.
stop the drama.. you guys are for austerity for all...What do you want...Communism? bread lines...The government to do for you and control your life? Think this through...your cause is perverse and evil.
So, by your logic, someone who is well-connected and had all the breaks should get his 386 million dollar pay package while some equally hard-working guy can't even support his family. And you don't see the perversity in that? What the hell is wrong with you? No one's calling for Communism or even complete fairness just rational reform. You're the one who needs to think this through. We've already got the bread lines - over 40 million Americans on food stamps. And when the Republicans shut that spigot what do you think is going to occur?
Great point HitGirl. I've told anyone who will listen to me something very similar these last few months. Either those in power are going to stop and take a look at this nation and see the deep shit we're in and then start working for the good of everyone and not just the 1%. Or a GOP, business-as-usual, crony capitalist is going to seize power, and start chopping off any and all humane aid to the 40+ million people teetering on destitution in this "land of plenty" with the result being violent, bloody, armed revolution.
I noticed she didn't try to answer my questions. Republicans must just zone out like zombies when face with reality.
Romney is in a troublingly analogous position. At a time of economic crisis, he too is running on his biography, as a businessman who knows how to create jobs. Like Kerry, Romney faced weak opposition, at least until Gingrich's rise a couple of months ago. Timid Pawlenty and Tongue-Tied Perry tried to land a few blows, but they were barely up for a pillow fight. Gingrich, by contrast, is causing Romney some pain--and Romney is making things worse by saying things like "I like being able to fire people who provide services to me."
romney will make things better...hope and change
The only ones Romney will make things better for are Corporations. Remember he believes they are people too. If we think things are bad now with one in every two people in American considered poor or on the edge of being poor, it will be down to the HAVES AND THE HAVE NOTS. How is that making things better? I just want it to be fair, and it's not!!!
Oh shut the hell up...you sound like a big cry baby. who the hell is life fair to? Everyone has a raw deal..And all of these politicians suck..left, right and center....But we should all just focus on one goal>>>
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Thanks, fantastic....another conservative....have a great night.
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Better for CEOs maybe. But Romney screwed Newt in Iowa and Newt isn't about to let it go. If "Prince of Bain" isn't already out it soon will be. Even if Romney were a rational well-meaning man under that Republican exterior he won't escape his past and that's only fair.
Austerity now. No more libs in HitGirls trailer.
McCain made it official saying, "I'm really only here for one reason... to make sure that we make Mitt Romney the next president of the United States of America and New Hampshire is the state that will catapult him onto victory..." Bygones ..."I know jobs and the economy will be the dominant theme in this campaign ... But I also think we've got to understand our nation's security. I guarantee one thing. No one will ever say that Mitt Romney will lead from behind. He will lead from the front like Ronald Reagan did."