Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Chomsky on Capitalism

Posted 3 years ago on Feb. 10, 2014, 3:37 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80 (6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

50 Comments

50 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 8 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

''The 99% are the hard working backbone of this country and every country, and they deserve a fair piece of the profit pie. The kind of arrogance shown by the 1% makes me think that they won't change on their own. They're not getting the message. And, that is a problem, because if we continue down this path of growing income inequality and "Let them eat cake" mentality it will get ugly. Have these people not had enough of a warning? What is it they don't understand? Do they know nothing of history?'' (bw : http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-the-hell-is-the-outrage-by-richard-eskow/#comment-1022065 ) & in compliment, I append :

Thanx for a great three and half minute video about Totalitarian Crapitalism and it is core OWS viewing I'd suggest. Solidarity Andy.

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Capitalism is unsustainable, immoral and exploitative. Capitalism should be abolished and replaced by democracy.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

''Chomsky On Democracy'' : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaXy1t0I44 may be over 25 years old but it's still highly relevant and an excellent use of of the just under 9 minutes it takes to watch it.Your ''Abolish Capitalism'' : http://occupywallst.org/forum/abolish-capitalism/ forum-post & thread, is also second to none. Thanx for all your work here Andy and in compliment :

"Most ordinary people gravely underestimate our own potential to play a role in changing the world. We should follow Sawant’s shining example and commit ourselves to this cause for which there is no greater reward. Nothing in life is more meaningful than fighting alongside other working-class people to end inequality, oppression, and environmental devastation." Also fyi :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

And thanks for all the great links you've provided! :)

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

''How to Ruin an Economy ; Some Simple Ways" - Noam Chomsky : (Video) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37640.htm also consider ..

''The Problem is Civil Obedience'' - Howard Zinn (Video & Transcript) : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36950.htm .

solidaritet ...

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33169) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Capitalism ( CRAPITALISM ) has nothing to do with democracy ( except to hinder it destroy it ) - CRAPITALISM is not restricted to abusing Democracy alone either - CRAPITALISM "IS" the 1% - The Few The GREEDY WORLD WIDE - who want it all for themselves and screw everyone else - Because - "They Have Theirs" and could give a Fuck about anyone or anything else!!!

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Remember though that the financial elite are just doing what the system requires them to do. Yes they are greedy douchebags, but it's the system that's causing this behavior. There has to be a systemic change.

Private ownership of the means of production (capitalism) must be replaced by collective ownership of the means of production

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33169) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Remember though that the financial elite are just doing what the system requires them to do.

EDIT - No - THAT is a sad sob story fed to the public = But but but WE HAVE TO ( EDIT ) -> That's just as lame of an excuse as the criminals from the WWII death camps saying - but we were just following orders.

What is referred to as American Crapitalism is no different than any other form of greed in operation around the world.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

I think we should be a little careful with bringing Nazi-Germany into this. That was a different system in a different time.

The capitalists and the financial elite have to be greedy in order to survive in the market. If they try to be nice, they'll be replaced by someone who isn't. This is what you get when there's private ownership of the mop. Humans aren't greedy and cynical in nature, it's the system that encourages humans to behave like this.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33169) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

I think we should be a little careful with bringing Nazi-Germany into this. That was a different system in a different time.

NO - To forget history "IS" to allow it to repeat. The horror of Nazi Germany - one of the horrors anyway - is that the vast public allowed it to happen.

Humans aren't greedy and cynical in nature, it's the system that encourages humans to behave like this.

What system? crapitalism? Because "that" is the system of every country in the world. That is where the 1% of the world thrive - thrive on the blood of the 99%

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Who said anything about forgetting history? I was talking about the analogy.

Yes, capitalism --or to be more precise: state-capitalism. It is a system in which most of the means of production are owned privately. That means that the ones participating in this market have to be greedy in order to survive. It's a competition for profits -- a competition with winners and losers. The ones who don't think profit will eventually be replaced by the ones who do. In other words, it's the greedy douchebags that will rise to the top in most cases. It's built into the system that these will be the winners. They are the product of the system.

State-capitalism has gone global. And this system must eventually be brought down and replaced by a participatory democracy with collective ownership of the mop. Then we'll be able to create a society in which human need is the focus, not short term profit.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

distrust of human intention has been used to convince us

to put or economy to the invisible hand of the market

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Speaking of the invisible hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaZORYaygo0

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

except that humans are greedy. it was a survival strategy in nature that still remains in our animal. the system is creating an avenue for this greed to flourish. it's both things making it worse. I agree it's not the fault of anyone for being human, and that we cannot solve systemic problems with topical solutions. I think we need a movement toward independent communities to relieve mass distribution and end capitalism.

[-] 6 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

No, actually cooperation and altruism have been the main factors thruout our evolution. This notion that human beings only think about personal gain is a myth created by Ayn Rand, Friedman and the rest of them. They're way off. Science has debunked this myth many times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8C-ntwUpzM

http://struggleforfreedom.blogg.no/1323868733_human_nature_and_libe.html

It is the system that's the main cause of the greed we see today. Capitalism encourages and in many cases requires individuals to be greedy.

These conditions are no laws of nature. Society can be (and has been) organized differently.

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

No? I'm not saying that people aren't amazing creatures, don't get me started. But altruism, personal gain, greed, ego, even competition are all words that describe self preservation. All i was saying is that greed is definitely still part of our animal.

Take a look at little kids who act the way they do without having been introduced to this system that you're saying is the main cause of greed. And some people never grow up.

We have a spectacular brain, but it still retains the reptilian beginning, the most basic programing. Consciousness is a whole nother world because it can see this animal and can make choices beyond it, but i think that we're in a kind of transition and that's a best case scenario.

[-] 3 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

First of all, you can see altruism and cooperation among children as well (here's one example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVNLQ9Sl-gY ). Secondly, children aren't fully developed; having experienced a 9 year old brat behaving badly is not very relevant. I'm talking about adults.

Human nature certainly allows a lot of different behavior, good as well as bad, but our core characteristics are overwhelmingly good. There is something in our nature that in many cases enables us to distinguish between what is good and what is bad, and there's a reason why most people consider helping people, taking care of one another etc, as "good"

Cooperation, helping one another and so on, have all been important factors thruout our evolution -- they are a huge part of our nature.

What we should do is to create a society which encourages our good traits, and discourages the bad ones. In other words, we should work to dismantle all tyrannical hierarchies, capitalism included, systems that encourage greed, oppression etc, and eventually establish a libertarian socialist society.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Of course kids share too. You said "Humans aren't greedy and cynical in nature." That's what I was responding to. We still have the reptilian brain at its core. This is where greed comes from, that animal ego. But please stop playing this like I'm disagreeing with everything else.

Now correct me if this is wrong, but you were saying that the system makes people greedy, and that otherwise they wouldn't be. That's not what the guy claimed in that video, and show me where science proves that, because it doesn't.

Greed comes from the animal ego, and the system is taken advantage of by that nature in people. Such has been happening all throughout recorded history, no matter what system we have in place, greed is always attempting to dominate.

That doesn't mean people aren't so much more. But you can't deny that greed isn't part of the animal we are made of. Ask yourself why nobody likes to loose an argument (self preservation, aka greed).

A system which makes the domination impossible would certainly help aid in our transition to something more conscious, or however you want to put it. Maybe save our species from extinction.

[-] 2 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

"Greed" means an individual's extreme desire for personal gain/material goods. That's what I'm talking about, not someone wanting to have the last word in a debate. This is not normal behavior for human beings. There is a certain amount of self interest of course, people wanting to have decent lives, learn more etc, but that's different than greed.

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Semantics? You're still saying that greed, desire for personal gain, is not normal behavior for humans. But it always has been, and not just in regard to capitalism.

I get what you're saying. Some cultures that don't have a lot of carrots don't have a lot of desire. That people living in a natural way are commonly a humble people (not always). I totally agree. Take video games for example, the ego is constantly promoted, excessively. Our society is making it a hell of a lot worse. I've written a lot about that.

But greed is already there, that's where it comes from. It's at the primal core of our brains just like any other animal. It's the basic programming that made it possible for us to even be here. It's part of us, and it certainly reacts well to proper stimulation, that's why it's embellished in popular culture.

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Greed isn't "already there". Having an extreme desire for personal gain and material goods is not a natural feeling. Normal, healthy human beings don't act that way.

It's not the case that individuals are greedy douchebags when they're with friends, family, colleagues etc. In our ordinary lives, when we're less affected by the capitalist economy, people don't behave like this. However, capitalists and the people at Wall St do act like this to a large extent --why? because it's required of them, it's taught.

A system that encourages and in many cases requires us to be greedy, will of course "produce" many greedy individuals.

[-] 1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Here's something you might like. Nature doesn't face you. Nature doesn't glorify your existence in any way. Yet we have created a society full of signs and slogans, constantly pointing at us with recognition. Also carrots and desire at every turn. Our sense of ego and self is constantly being stroked, all the time, all for you, yes you, you. Nature doesn't stimulate that sense (except your reflection in water).

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Ok I get it. You're saying that the word greed describes someone who is extremely greedy, and that is in fact the definition of the word. Take the word greed out of it and look at what I've been saying though. That the "muscle" for greed is part of the animal ego.

This is about semantics, so no more arguing.

But on that note, greediness does appear despite society, and it comes from that "muscle" deep down in our animal ego. And definitely this capitalistic society makes it 1000% more stimulated.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

mass distribution is all ready in place

with railroads, ships and trucks

[-] -3 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

yeah, 10 pounds of fuel is attached to every pound of food that 4 billion people eat. but regardless of the evironmental impact it has, the worst part is that we are all being fed by a single, corrupted dictatorship in a way that creates dependancy.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

Humans are not naturally greedy.

It's a learned trait.

"BIG", More important "humans" IE: corporations. are greedy by charter.

The two are often confused.

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Tell every baby and kid on the planet that they've learned it from their long lives in society. If team occupy the forum is so sure we do not have greed in our animal then I wish you guys would try saying something factual, instead of just twinkle stinkle manipulation. The pattern on this forum is not subtle.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

Babies and kids, haven't had long lives.

See what I mean about how you confuse them with the "super human" corporations?

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

You said "Humans are not naturally greedy."

Don't be twisting this around now, you're not going to confuse me.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

And you said.

"Tell every baby and kid on the planet that they've learned it from their long lives in society."

I can't make you, what you already are.

Greed is actually an illness called neoplexia.

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Dood, kids are pretty good evidence that greed is part of our animal and not something learned by society. Now I dare you to back your opinions up with something substantial.

If the example of kids isn't good enough for you then how about history? Since the beginning, no matter what the social structure, greed has always attempted to dominate.

So do you have an argument that isn't circular?

[-] 4 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

Greed has been more or less absent in many societies thruout history. Hunter-gatherer societies (which were the first kinds of societies and which still exist today in some parts of the world) have to a large extent been based on cooperation, egalitarianism and so on, while greed has been considered unacceptable or unwanted behavior. What we've seen is that as capitalism has become more and more dominant, the more greed we've seen.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

Where is it you think we came from?

Greed is NOT innate.

It's a learned behavior.

It's got absolutely NOTHING to do with semantics.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

I ate until I was full yesterday

I've learned today when I have no food, I should have eaten more yesterday

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

I'm not going to look up all the research I've read, some of which I've already posted here a long time ago. You can look it up yourself.

The real teller is in isolated tribes, who consider what we call greed, a form of illness.

The Greeks had a name for it too...........neoplexia.

I would say many use your belief as an excuse for their own bad behavior, but it really doesn't wash.

[-] -2 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/chomsky-on-capitalism/#comment-1024651

I've had about enough of this, believe what you want. Considering greed an illness is a good way to put it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the reason we're here today. I'm not advocating greed, but if you forget where we came from it might just bite you in the arse.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 3 years ago

Not just babies, whole attitudes about greed change.

http://phys.org/news/2012-08-greed-middle-ages.html

Greed is a learned behavior. As such, it can be unlearned.

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Aye, privately owning the vital resources that effect everyone seems like a recipe for dictatorship. They might as well be the government, and be regulated as such.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

+1 (please don't bump threads)

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

What are you talking about?

And seriously, -2 points for saying that private ownership of resources that effect everyone is lame? They've dominated the world we all live in. I thought you guys were against this stuff.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

oh voting is rather arbitrary here

anyone could stinkle a post

except me, my voting has been disabled

so I up vote your comment with my name

[-] -1 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Nice.

Seems like the voting gets so manipulated that it might help to disable it all around. To see that something someone says is at -3 has psychological impact. Let the words speak for themselves.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

the first 400 times

[-] 2 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

Gotta love that, "let the words speak for themselves" gets negative votes. Just funny.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

I don't believe in the profit pie

not do i believe distribution every had anything to do with what was "earned"

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 3 years ago

But you believe in ''pie'' tho' right ? Also fyi :

fiat justitia ...

[-] 0 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

"strategic alliances, effectively act together."

what was the definition of conspiracy again?

[-] 1 points by struggleforfreedom80 (6584) 3 years ago

That's no secret conspiracy. Corporations interact with or own other corporations.

[-] -2 points by bullfrogma (448) 3 years ago

That's right, the definition is secret. Well at least treason works.