Forum Post: Capitalism is killing people, animals and the planet
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 6:29 p.m. EST by TheAncientMariner
(100)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Just as tribalism and Feudalism had their day in the sun and disappeared from the stage of History – so now, should Capitalism. If it does not go it will not only block the economic and social development of humanity, It will destroy us as a race. Some will say that this is not a bad thing as our absence will result in a better world for the creatures remaining in it. We are currently living through the Holocene extinction – the extinction of species caused directly by human activity. The consensus among the scientific community is that, “up to 20 percent of all living populations could become extinct within 30 years (by 2028). Biologist E. O. Wilson estimated in 2002 that if current rates of human destruction of the biosphere continue, one-half of all species of life on earth will be extinct in 100 years.” Why is this? Are humans inherently evil? Do we do this deliberately in some form of “dominance over nature”, cultural imperative? The answers to these questions are, of course, emphatically no! It is the dominance of a minority perpetuated economic system which is responsible.
"Too much and too long, we seem to have surrendered community excellence and community values in the mere accumulation of material things. Our gross national product ... if we should judge America by that - counts air pollution and cigarette advertising, and ambulances to clear our highways of carnage. It counts special locks for our doors and the jails for those who break them. It counts the destruction of our redwoods and the loss of our natural wonder in chaotic sprawl. It counts napalm and the cost of a nuclear warhead, and armored cars for police who fight riots in our streets. It counts Whitman's rifle and Speck's knife, and the television programs which glorify violence in order to sell toys to our children.
"Yet the gross national product does not allow for the health of our children, the quality of their education, or the joy of their play. It does not include the beauty of our poetry or the strength of our marriages; the intelligence of our public debate or the integrity of our public officials. It measures neither our wit nor our courage; neither our wisdom nor our learning; neither our compassion nor our devotion to our country; it measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile. And it tells us everything about America except why we are proud that we are Americans."
Robert F. Kennedy Address, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, March 18, 1968
A freaking men.
I am English and I know about everyone of those references. Speck was the sick fuck who murdered nurses and then took hormones in jail to develop breasts and take it up the ass as someone's bitch to survive Whitman was the disturbed son of an abusive father who took a snipers nest to kill innocents from a tower at a university in Texas. WTF has that got to do with anything? OWS is about a change to the system that isn't about eulogising your country fuckwit! It is about changing things that people like JFK stood for! His father earned his money through bootleg liquor and supported Hitler over Britain as ambassador to Britain at the start of WW2. Choose your hero's more wisely as the one you quote was an immoral womanising member of the elite society that this movement is determined to remove. Stop quoting imaginary hero's and celebrate the real hero's in lower Manhatten tonight!
The quote is from RFK, not JFK. You miss RFK' s point in its entirety. Let me explain it to you. Ready?
The point is that under a neoclassical economic system, growth is the only goal, so the knife Speck used and the rifle Whitman used are counted as successes since their production and sale contributes to economic growth statistics, despite the fact that these items were used for horrific ends. This quote is fully consistent with OWS.
Just to get the facts straight and to wrap this up, it was the Bush family that, though an investment bank in NY, financed Germany before WWII.
You see, you have to be able to read and think. Good luck.
Additional flames cheerfully ignored.
Thank you for that educational insight - I stand corrected, but stand by my comment about Joseph Kennedy :-) Keep the faith as long as it is humanistic and not religious! Forgive my stridency, but I have waited many years to see days like these. By the way - I also know about Chase Manhattens role in financing the Nazi's :-)
Go ahead and look at what is wrong and extrapolate that to everything else. It's stupid, but go ahead and do it if you want. You (Bobbie) didn't mention a single break through drug that has extended life for millions. Not one gain in agricultural science to increase production to feed more of the world. You only account for what is wrong. How sad.
Actually, they are accounted for. He is saying that the "successes" won't mean much if you have no air, no water, if your children are poisoned, if breast cancer caused by pollutants is out of control, if you have no peace or peace of mind.
Another example of those so invested in the current system that they cannot see the truth or a way out. Talk about sad. FCI.
I walked outside after I read that. We have air. It didn't kill me when I took a deep breath. The faucet in the kitchen ran nice cool safe water and I'm confident the shower will provide me with nice warm water in the morning. We have two high school age sons who are the picture of health as evidenced by their physique, academic achievement, athletic endeavors and the results of their regular doctor visits. My wife had breast cancer. It was the type caused by the hormonal changes during menopause. Thanks for reminding me of a fun time in our lives. We are very grateful for the advances in breast cancer treatment which was produced, not by some collective in lower Manhattan, but by efforts of many for-profit companies. Her care was excellent and she has been cancer free for five years because of what capitalism has produced. Our current system isn't perfect, and it never will be. Look back at your remarks. You used the word "if" four times. Now, look at my response. I stated things as they are, not in a theoretical "iffy" kind of way.
What separates humans from other species is we have the ability to make logical choices to plan for the future. You and your children have all of these things now, but through logical processes, we can see that infinite growth will not allow us to sustain this economic model. the point isn't about what some people have at the moment, but it's about what everyone will need inthe future. Sure, the future of the Earth doesn't care if we as a species survive or become extinct. But we are slowly and surely killing ourselves through competition for profits and this is a problem. You are a human being with the same logical capabilities as myself. Doesn't this inevitable fate concern you in the very least?
Nope, because I don't buy into your inevitable fate. Yes, I worry, but what I worry about are how many dimwits we have out protesting.
Frankly, I we have a lot of dumb people now. My proposal is to take all the warning labels off of everything and the the problem will take care of itself.
I see. I thought you were on here for a constructive debate, but you just sound like an asshole.
A constructive debate doesn't start with "Capitalism is Killing People." I guess the ass hole is the one that started this, eh?
Ok I can agree with your statement. Maybe the Poster came up with a title that is a little extreme. Maybe it would be more accurate to say "People are Killing People" or "Our Socio-Economic Model is Killing People". Roughly 40% of world's population can not buy food everyday when we have a society of over abundance. Just the food the government throws away is sickening. Were you aware that the government throws away food in order to decrease the supply and drive up prices? I don't mean throwing away garbage, I mean throwing away perfectly edible food. There is something seriously wrong when it's more important to manipulate prices than it is to feed people. So maybe capitalism isn't killing people, but our economic model is systematically letting people die.
What you just described isn't an economic model, but rather a government model. The food is destroyed because of the government bought it to prop up prices as one of the subsidies for agriculture. They don't buy all the time, but when conditions are good and yields are high. Sadly, those subsidies, and many others has become a significant part of the way our federal government governs. We need to get the government out of our daily life and back to performing the tasks it should.
And the 40% of the world that is hungry isn't because of capitalism. That is just silly. The hunger is largely caused by failed governments through out the undeveloped world. Hunger is an issue in America, but it is nothing compared to Africa, where capitalism is quite sparse.
Thank mother nature that she can take so much abuse from greedy rich humans and still provides clean air to breathe.
Don't mess with nature, the consequences will be disastrous.
Don't believe in Global warming ? There never was a year in which so many countries had such devastating floods.
Worst is yet to come, stay tuned.
you only blamed greedy rich people........why don't you ever go after the greedy poor people? They are just as greedy.
If I am poor and greedy ? How many people can be affected by me ?
I don't really give a rat's ass. Greedy is as greedy is.
What the hell is your point?
If I am a billionaire, I can jack up everyone's Gas expense by buying up Crude oil in Commodities market. Do you get the point ?
As a rich greedy man, I can cause pain to a lot of people unlike a poor greedy person !
So you are saying that a rich greedy many can (and does?) corner the crude oil market by controlling enough futures contracts?
I remember reading in a book once.......look for the year of record floods...that will be the year that the earth begins to fall apart for ever......
Wait, Noah proved that wrong. Come on. You need more than the random nature of the timing of floods.
Hey, buddy. FCI means flames cheerfully ignored. Actually, for you we will change that to TCI.
Hey, buddy. FCI means flames cheerfully ignored. Actually, for you we will change that to TCI.
So, an opposing viewpoint is a flame? How tolerant of you.
I just wonder, KnowledgeableFellow, if you would have been able to say all that if you had been unemployed? My wife also had cancer, and would be dead now if I had not been LUCKY enough to have a job with a good health plan. None of us knows what lies ahead of us - can those of us that are fortunate enough to be in the 1% really afford to be so contemptuous of the other 99%? You obviously love your wife and children - do you want their well-being in the future to be completely dependent on your ability to provide for them, or for them to provide for themselves? All I, and many others here, want for my children is a life as good as I have been fortunate enough to have. If we continue on the current track, I think the chances of that are zero.
What is the incentive for a private insurance company to provide the best possible care for a patient ?
Answer: There is no such incentive and hence their motive is the least expensive care or deny care altogether.
This is the truth of private health insurance company.
I much prefer to rely on providing for ourselves than to rely on others to provide for us. You referred to those of us in the 1%. We are not in the 1%, though you may be. The need to work on ways to provide healthcare to more people is not a reason to destroy the system that has produced incredible breakthroughs in medical care. It's not a medical care issue, it's a medical care funding and distribution issue.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-is-killing-people-animals-and-the-plane/#comment-163750
It's the private healthy insurance industry that's the root of the problem.
please explain why? I hear that all the time. Come on, I have never lost a debate on this.......
If you can't understand what I have written, there is no point in having a discussion.
you got nothing......................hahahahahah
you say the health insurance industry is the root of the problem. That's all, just that. So, I ask you to come up with the goods to prove you point. You ONLY answer is that if I can't understand what you have written ( I'll reprint it here......" It's the private healthy (the typo is yours) insurance industry that's the root of the problem.") You said NOTHING other than an accusation. An now for you to take the pompous attitude that you explained everything only shows how deficient your argument is.
Damn you!!!!!!!!!!!! Now my side hurts from laughing AT you !!!!!!
"You are confused. It is the doctor/hospital/clinic operations that provide care for the patient. The role of the insurance company is to pay for part or all of the care as originally agreed upon in the insurance contract. Your question is bogus."
Lets see. You goto a doctor with your problem. The doctor decides on a treatment after his diagnosis, and now he can't give you the treatment unless it's approved by the insurance company. He calls the insurance company and the doctors employed by the insurance company will decide if this treatment is really necessary or not. It's the decision of the doctor who works at the insurance company which is final. This doctor's only goal is to recommend cheaper treatment options and reduce cost for the insurance company. Your personal doctor doesn't decide he just recommends.
That is all part of the process in determining if the procedure is covered by the insurance contract. The insurance company is not required to pay for procedures for which they have not been collecting premiums. Obama demonized insurance companies so much that people don't even know how insurance of any kind works. Insurance is not a "we will pay for every possible thing" contract. The insurance company is contractually obligated to pay for what they had agreed to pay, so long as the premium has been paid. They are not obligated to pay for things that are not covered by the contract. That's all pretty simple. Now, there can be a dispute as to what was covered in the contract, but that is contract law and that is one reason we have a judicial system.
In you example, the insurance company was saying that it was not a covered procedure. Your example is bogus.
I guess you read this question, anyways let me know if you have an answer to below question and then we will talk.
What is the incentive for a private insurance company to provide the best possible care for a patient ?
You are confused. It is the doctor/hospital/clinic operations that provide care for the patient. The role of the insurance company is to pay for part or all of the care as originally agreed upon in the insurance contract. Your question is bogus.
its industry ....they rip off people...they take someone in a 3rd world country with no rights...make them work in a sweatshop pay them pennies..then they come over to the 1st world and charge us 20 dollars for it./..its fucking disgusting..they take from the producer and the consumer..they do it communist countries they do it in capitalist countries
for years industry would just dump waste in the rivers because properly disposing their waste cut in on their revenue...the industrial revolution birthed capitalism and some aspects of capitalism work..but here is how capitalism works
people need food...oh lets capitalize on that and sell them food people need shelter..oh lets capitalize on that and sell them shelter people need clothing...utensils...healthcare oh lets capitalize on that and sell them what they need
meanwhile lets put them to work so that they can pay for all the things they need...if they dont work they dont get paid and thus they dont have food shelter or clothing...somthing primitive peoples had as just basic requirements are neglected from people in our medieval society
as natives our shelter cost nothing...our food cost nothing..and we made everything we needed...in this world you dont necessarily have the time to make the things you need...so you have to buy them
I remember 30 years ago that industrial robots and computers would lead to more leisure time for all as profits could be made with less of a need for human labour. Wonder what happened to that idea? Oh yeah they just let the robots make people redundant and kept the profits to themselves.
Don't think we have a higher standard of living now then we did 30 years ago?
No we don't, and I can cite many examples of why we don't if you want to give it a go! By we - I mean the 99% obviously - the 1% have a far higher standard of living!!!!!
I would have been dead by now if I was born 30 years earlier. I had a strange kidney defect that was only possible to fix with the most advanced medical technology that we have today. So I think my standard of living is just a teensy weensy bit higher
Please, give some examples.
Ok here is number 1. I am a citizen of the UK. I left school in 1975 and employers competed with each other to give me a job. My friends who had left school 2 years earlier were given apprenticeships to become Welders / Platers / Miners / Steelworkers etc. Most of them had little or no academic qualifications. they started their adult life, confident that their future was secured. Many started families and used their salaries to get a mortgage on a house. The 1980's arrived and along came Thatcher and Reagan. Capitalism needed to be de-regulated to maximise profits and get higher returns for shareholders. This would lead to a "trickle down" economy where the benefits for the rich would go down the social scale to the uncapitalised working class. Nope! 3rd world markets were there to be exploited - all the traditional industries went to third world countries where the capitalists invested in factories and paid starvation wages - the jobs in the west in manufacturing were exported. Before Thatcher in the UK - 2% youth unemployment. After Thatcher 20% youth unemployment. Today 25% youth unemployment. The remaining 75% comprise of the 1% of the wealthy who are guaranteed a future and the 74% who work in part time jobs at fast food outlets or in the black economy for unscrupulous non-tax paying wannabe capitalist moguls.
I don't know what it is like in the UK, but I think it is pretty simplistic to group everyone into those 2 categories.
I am in the 99% but I have a good job and a nice house with a pool. I have central air and heat so I am always comfortable. I have a nice car that is a lot safer than the ones being made 30 years ago. I have a 55-inch HD TV with about 400 channels. We have personal computers and high speed internet access (which obviously you also have). I am able to take a few weeks vacation every year and maybe go somewhere in the Caribbean to sip martinis.
I can say the same thing for nearly all of mine friends and family, and we are all well within the middle class. To say that the standard of living has not improved in 30 years is nonsense. Like I said though, I don't know what things are like in the UK.
Ever been to another neighbourhood or do you always just hang out with the same crowd lol? I suppose the people who didn't have access to the education you did are just workshy parasites on social welfare because they just want to sponge from honest taxpayers? Did you know there are more black men in your prisons today than were owned as slaves at the start of your civil war? I suppose that statistic is because all blacks would rather commit crime, smoke crack and kill people than the average white man? Hmmn? Maybe there is another explanation? Maybe it's because capitalism is invariably unfair and allows social cliques to disadvantage otherwise worthy participants in the process of commerce and the legal system - just a shot in the dark there :-) Maybe it's because people like you who are doing just fine under the system therefore reach the conclusion that the same opportunities are available to everyone if "they just work hard".? Get outside your comfort zone and have a look at what your system does to the children of people who aren't in your social clique. Think what could happen to your children, or your children's children if they slipped a few rungs down the social ladder due to bad luck or ill health. Then tell me everything in the future for you and yours is going to be tickety boo! If you do then fair enough. I will then conclude you don't give a flying fuck for anyone else's kids.
I, for one, don't venture much outside my gated community, don't want to be exposed to that lifestyle. black men in prison- explain how 12% of the US population commits 70% of the violent felonies? As to my children and heirs. I work very hard, save capital and have ownership in assets; my kids won't be sponges on society. As to other children, I am concerned that this next generation will grow up thinking they are entitled to it all; well guess what, not from my family's pocket.
I went to public schools (and most of them were not that great) my entire life so everyone did have that same access.
And I didn't say that a lot of people don't have it rough. They obviously do. I was just commenting on your original post, trying to point out that there are a lot of people between the fast food workers and the 1% and they saw a dramatic improvement in quality of life over the last 30 years.
Sorry m8 but you sound like a really nice guy to me and I hate to argue with someone who wants to do good but can't see the wood for the trees. I'm not trying to denigrate your achievements. I am sure you worked hard to do everything you have achieved. The fact is that there are vastly more unemployed people in the 1st world now than there were when I left school in the 70',s. The global economy has benefited a small proportion of the elite in every country it touches. It does little to benefit the poor in the countries that capital moves to, and it widens the gap between the rich and the poor where capital is exported from. I am not an economist but nor am I a fool. And by your own description of your lifestyle I am incredibly poor. I am not jealous of this - what I lack in financial riches I am rich in the family I have around me. I raised five children and recently welcomed my 2nd grandson and have a 5th grandaughter expected on November 7th. I do not want to see your lifestyle destroyed after a lifetime of hard work. What I do want to see is the end of some people letting money work for them while they do nothing. I want to see the end of a system which allows idiots to gamble with other peoples money whilst they have nothing to lose! the world is in crisis because people who fail to do their jobs properly still reward themselves what would be a multi lifetime salary for most families in an annual bonus, when they have done nothing to deserve it. We are in a financial crisis because the system benefits the 1% and expects the 99% to pay for it! This is morally corrupt.
"as natives our shelter cost nothing...our food cost nothing..and we made everything we needed...in this world you dont necessarily have the time to make the things you need...so you have to buy them"
Despite the developments of the wheel, soap, agriculture, money, computers and other material advancements, our civilization has just as many problems as before them. Societal trends evolve, and overtime, we adjust with them. It is just a matter of how willing are the people.
You paint the native era as some kind of utopia. Everything was free, shelter, food. Why they just made everything they needed. What do you think they did all day? They hunted for food. They made and protected their shelters. In other words, they worked all the time to scrape together the bare necessities. Now that's some kind of life, isn't it. So when people offer you food that is more plentiful than ever, at lower and lower real prices, you only think about the 1% margin they made? Are you really that jealous of industrious people who provide for others? And the people who make your jeans are supposed to do it just so you have jeans? Good luck with that. By the way, with others producing food and jeans and whatever, what they hell do you contribute?
the food you talk about is mostly reconstructed corn product. over 70% of the food americans eat is some kind of corn, be it starch, syrup, grain, or straight off the cob. Which is highly subsidized by our government, and has lead to the current obesity epidemic. How nice for us that we dont have to work so hard to eat!
Just because it's on the shelf doesn't mean you have to buy it. I don't eat that shit, and no one is forcing you to either. I just love these people who consistently divert responsibility by complaining that something was "there" and so, what could they do? Eat something else, that's what they can do. It's ridiculous to blame the grocery store for one's own lack of willpower. Guess what, they stock those shelves based on what sells. If people really care that much, all they gave to do is stop buying the crap. Wonder what would happen then? It would magically disappear from the shelves!
That is a strange comment which has nothing to do with the prior post or mine. I agree that we should get rid of the agricultural subsidies. But that is quite a stretch that the ag subsidies has led to the obesity issue.
Frogs shouldn't have five eyes and three legs.
Fuck you, you communist bastard, my friends and family have served this country to give you the freedom to protest, and all you can think of to do is sit your unemployed ass outside of the offices of people who are working a hell of a lot harder than you? You are a communist, hippie, and GDI you piece of shit. 100% proud to be the 1%
HeHeHeHe - you never joined a war yet that wasn't already half won you moron. And btw fuck you you capitalist bastard! How many kids will die today in africa because of the great wars of liberation you fought? How many kids in your great old US of A go without healthcare because their parents are on minimum wage and can't afford healthcare? How many will go to bed hungry tonight? You live in a bubble where the rich in your country can own islands in the pacific and the poor starve to death and freeze in winter on your streets. And the good christians who go to church 3 times a week walk past their bodies and don't give a damn. BTW I'm not a citizen of your fucked up country, I am a citizen of another fucked up country. I do work and I love being called a hippy and a communist. Both of those ideologies if lived as they were originally proposed would suit me fine - not the filthy, media creations they eventually came to mean under the nasty self serving poison views of morons like you.
if you want to see where the real 1 percent come from check this out totalfratmove.com
You are what is wrong with america. You are the kind of scum that bitches about the system with no plans to change it, you whine and cry that I make more money than you do because you obviously do not have the talent or drive to hold down a real job. And if communism ever actually worked it would be a great system, but the fact is it is impossible to actually create due to the fact that people will always use the power they have and that before communism comes a dictatorship. You are the kind of pussy GDI shit that couldn't do shit with your life. You can go serve your country then talk about where it should be headed.
Idiot - I am not a citizen of your country! I am a supporter of the movement the rest of the world has been waiting for. the silent majority in your ridiculously unequal country to get a voice and start to use it! My heart is soaring because arseholes like you are being worried by it! I have an IQ of 146! I have academic achievements that morons like you couldn't even dream of because you have neither the intelligence or the imagination to envisage. I have raised 5 children in your capitalist hell and will have my seventh grandchild in a few weeks time! All of this in the face of the shitty system you support by deadly force. I am a survivor! My progeny are survivors - and because we are so much more intelligent than you we will prevail! Go to the mountains of Oregon or Montana - start to hoard your weapons and practice skinning beavers or whatever it is that you fucking Nazi's do. You are on your way out and the 99% of humanity who don't benefit from your greedy corrupt immoral system will win!
My father never went to college and still built a successful company, that is what made me a part of the one percent. So how in the fuck does that make me greedy? What country are you from? How is your economy doing? If you really have any type of academic achievement I couldn't dream of why are you not making more money?
Because I ended up working for uneducated greedy fuckwits! Sound familiar? Every person who worked for me worked hard - as did I - problem was we were working for people who weren't interested in providing a safe, efficient and renewably productive environment for the benefit of workers and shareholders. We were just as disposable as the robots who populated much of the factory. I had a young man who worked for me who had a newborn baby die. I was expected to pressurise him to come back to work within 3 days! I had a man who's sister had her head blew off by a sawn off shotgun by her ex partner who I was supposed to keep at work rather than attend her funeral because she wasn't his parent,spouse or child! That is why I am not making money - your greedy corrupt system stinks - and because I have a brain capable of seeing the injustice they eventually sacked me because I was unable to do the things they asked of me and became mentally ill. Try sleeping on the things they asked me to do - unless you are a heartless, greedy bastard who thinks that people are usable commodities you can't sleep! Their own company doctor told me that if you beat your head against a brick wall all you achieve is brain damage for yourself. He was right! I hate your system and the inequality and savagery it promotes! Do an anonymous survey of your employees and see how many bullies in the workplace you uncover, because capitalism is a bullies charter! I am from the UK and I find it impossible to work with the mental problems I have after 11 years of employment with those conditions. If I did I would rapidly be in a mental institution, serving a prison sentence or dead! My employer was a major car manufacturer. People weren't assets - they were disposable assets!
Ayn Rand. Says it all. You can't change evil.
\/
You are just another greedy moocher who loves to make excuses for why they are on welfare, go read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" then tell me that everything you say is true.
Rofl I don't even live in your country you big hearted lovable dear you :-) Last time I heard Moocher it was in the Cab Calloway classic Minnie The Moocher. I take it by moocher you mean someone who is on benefits because they are unemployed, who hasn't a hope in hell of getting a job because there aren't any and is disadvantaged by your shit education system which can't even teach geography? You just don't even realise how brainwashed you sound to the rest of the world! We laugh at you because even people like you who have probably had some form of education are incredibly ignorant lol!
"If you want to see pollution go to China. America is far from the hell hole they created. WHat a load of al gore."
We all inhabit the same planet, China's problems are our problems too. Population density wise, America is not a bad place at all, and we need to keep it that way. We need to lead by example and become a more responsible nation in terms of population awareness. This isn't eugenics, this is maths with a little common sense thrown in. Science and engineering can only help wrangle those last few drops, and until we become a competent space faring civilization, this fact needs to be kept in mind.
Issues like this will take some time before they're ever accepted in our society. Many people in this country still can't come to terms with evolution or climate change, which is saddening.
The University of Michigan reports ( http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/human_pop/human_pop.html ) that every hour, 10,000 new people are born into the world. At the current estimated rate of growth, the population will double before the end of century. At this rate, combined with the original post's main points, leads me to believe that a mass human extinction will occur. Why? If the rich continue to get richer and neglect the global ramifications of personal attainment and wealth, 1% will own 100% of the resources while the other billions of people die off in masses. genocide.
Except that birth rates are dropping across the globe and have been for some time.
Only, slightly though. Plus, birth rates don't matter by itself though at this point.. Let me explain. Even though there may be a lower birth rate, there is still a significant number of people. Therefore, even with a low birthrate, you can still increase significantly, which is a problem.
actually, corporate oligarchy is killing everything, capitalism has never existed.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
you could just move to a country that has a different system then trying to change this one
I already live in a different country you jerk! Economic systems can't exist in one country and not in another - they are global you fool. I know you yanks aren't gr8 with geography - you play sports that no other country competes in and call your domestic winners world champions ffs rofl! Buy an atlas and check out the rest of the world fuckwit! The economy is GLOBAL! It needs GLOBAL solutions!!! Yawn!
tell that to north Korea
HaHaHaHaHa. you really are a moron. North Korea exists because you exist you fuckwit. GLOBAL remember! North Korea is a dictatorship of 1 class just as much as yours is! Do you think kids in the USA don't go to bed hungry every night or suffer from treatable infections because their family doesn't have the money to buy health insurance? You are a brainless media driven arsehole!
I think you need to visit north Korea. You have no idea how good you have it. In north Korea you would have been mowed down with machine guns weeks ago. Also the Media is the worst place to get news
I don't need to visit North Korea to know exactly what goes on there. It is a pariah state that treats it's people abominably and is probably the worst place on the earth to live if you believe in expressing your views freely. However, I do have to question your logic in thinking that because I oppose capitalist exploitation that i support regimes like that? Can't you see the flaws in your childish logic? I abhor North korea and the elite that maintains it. I also abhor the elite that maintains global capitalism and the repression and inequality that it also perpetuates. Go and ask George bush if he will lend you some of his money to start a business that will benefit everyone and see how much of a return he wants on his investment! Schmuck!
and what would you propose besides capitalism...
Let me see ? Would justice do for a start? Or fairness? Egalitarianism? Stopping people from thinking that owning land and property is a fundamental law of physics? Even the most fundamental religious nuts in the world say that a "benign God " created everything and, in any religion on the planet does it say that specific individuals have the right to own surface area on the planet or regions beneath it's surface? In any religious faith does it say that borders are to be drawn between members of the same species? Borders are black marks drawn on the map of the world by greedy individuals - Land ownership is a proposal fostered by greedy individuals - mineral rights are purchased from corrupt capitalist political ideology by greedy individuals! Forget your preconceptions of what economics is about and join the debate started in Madrid, continued in Wall Street, and spreading across the globe! Capitalism has benefited 1% and disadvantaged 99%! Get involved in a debate for a better system, don't ask the people who realise it is unfair, unjust and immoral to come up with an immediate answer
Let me see ? Would justice do for a start? Or fairness? Egalitarianism? Stopping people from thinking that owning land and property is a fundamental law of physics? Even the most fundamental religious nuts in the world say that a "benign God " created everything and, in any religion on the planet does it say that specific individuals have the right to own surface area on the planet or regions beneath it's surface? In any religious faith does it say that borders are to be drawn between members of the same species? Borders are black marks drawn on the map of the world by greedy individuals - Land ownership is a proposal fostered by greedy individuals - mineral rights are purchased from corrupt capitalist political ideology by greedy individuals! Forget your preconceptions of what economics is about and join the debate started in Madrid, continued in Wall Street, and spreading across the globe! Capitalism has benefited 1% and disadvantaged 99%! Get involved in a debate for a better system, don't ask the people who realise it is unfair, unjust and immoral to come up with an immediate answer
life isn't supposed to be fair. natural selection, survival of the fittest,the strong survive, remember?
Read this:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/18/141421746/income-disparity-and-the-price-of-civilization
http://www.amazon.com/Price-Civilization-Reawakening-Prosperity-ebook/dp/B004KPM1FS
It is a good start for an OWC Manifesto!
I just did and I agree with most of it with one major caveat. When did everyone buy into the media and politically driven brainwashing drive that says if you own a home and have a white collar job you are "middle" class? Unless you have capital that works for you so that you don't have to you are "working" class! Don't believe me? Try giving up your wage tomorrow and see how middle class you are! The biggest lie perpetuated in the last 100 years!
Here is more info:
http://www.occupile.com/
Oh my god! I didn't realise! I have been supporting the wrong side!!! I am going out first thing tomorrow to join a right wing fascist group that believes in taking all civil liberties away from people and installing a totalitarian regime! Phew! Thank god you saved me from my misguided political mistakes!
We don't care what you all believe. Just stop with the incessant whining. Geez.
HEHehe. More nobel prize winning contributions from the George Bush and Dan Quayle school of oratory. I love you man - I don't have to do anything but listen to you to make my point!
Sweet. Stick w that strat, and we will both be fine!
Groovy :-) Keep killing children and I will still hate you :-) And also do everything in my power - which is minimal - to destroy your peurile pathetic and ultimately self-serving view of life!
Some People are killing people and have corrupted everything they touch.
agreed!
It's not capitalism. It's human greed which is killing.
Capitalism is just a method of doing our every day business.
If we don't control human greed by providing right punishment against greed, then the exploitation and destruction will not stop.
So explain to me how capitalism militates against greed? Doesn't it operate on a level where people invest money - sit back and do nothing - then expect more money back than they put in? Hmmn? How does that work then - oh yeah - it's greed!
The only thing you need to control greed in capitalism is 90% top income tax rate for income above 500K. If we have this rule, nobody cares to earn over 500K as they know it will go to Government (Greed is automatically controlled). We need to make sure that this tax collected is spent for human development and environment conservation, instead of destructive wars !
This is what happened in USA between 1950s and 1980s. That's when the middle class and the poor did great in America.
90%? Totally agree! To hell with 40% and 50%! I could live with 90%!
Unfortunately, the rich have taken control over GOP and people like Grover Norquist have created Anti tax pledge for Republican leaders which all of them have happily signed for and will abide by it.
You see, for Republicans their ideology is more important than poor people's welfare or in a sense this country's welfare.
Unfortunately, 90% tax rate will not happen in the future unless we get another president like FDR. He understood the importance of controlling human greed even though he was born in a wealthy family.
Can't argue with that!
One more thing, when the top tax rate is 90% most of the people will stop focusing on making money and will focus on the job. Focus will be on quality of product than the profit on the product. If tax rate is 90%, CEOs pay will automatically be cut drastically and guess what CEO's will not complain that they do not earn multi million dollar salaries any more.
90% tax rate is like your stomach's capacity to eat food. After a certain amount of food, you do not like to eat more and so you will leave the food for others to eat. That is how it works !!
Unfortunately many Republicans have been misinformed about this. The conservative rich have taught them that tax is stealing man's income and should be abolished. They underestimate the destructive power of human greed !
First off your linking to completely seperate issues together. Secondly capitolisim is a great system, but like any system can be corrpted. I dont see you coming up with any soultions, all I see you doing is attacking the current system. Unless you present an alternitive your argument is like that of a five yearold arguing with his mother about eating his veggies.
The alternative system is obvious even to most 5 year olds. Remove profit from the equation and manage resources for the benefit of all and not just for the enrichment of those who already have capital. Capitalism as a system stinks to high heaven and is a recipe for nepotism, cronyism and corruption. don't come back at me with the usual crap about how socialism has been tried before and doesn't work - it just shows your lack of education and knowledge of the subject. Socialism as it was intended has never been tried and it is high time it was.
Nor has capitalism ever been implemented as intended. Maybe we should consider that all systems look good on paper, but all become corrupt over time. Maybe we should focus on getting rid of the corruption and figuring out how to keep it at bay.
You may have a point there but consider the word capitalism. It means making capital - money - work as opposed to human endevour. As long as people with capital use the system to earn without doing anything productive themselves, there will be inequality and dissatisfaction among the rest of the population. If capitalism were represented as a mathematical graph it would be an exponential series with the graph showing a steep rise or fall ending up as a flatline that changed marginally from 99% or 1% . We are at 99% / 1% and if things don't change now we are all doomed - even the 1%!!!
Capitalism is also killing our children. Watch BBC video: Michael Petit: America can fix problem of child abuse fatalities. (U.S. media not really very interested in this problem). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/15361466 We have a big lead on the rest of the developed world in child abuse, neglect and death.
What would you replace it with? I tend not to take suggestions with long term and severe effects from ghosts.
Socialism pure and simple. Remove the profit motive and pay people a fair return for their contribution to society as a whole. Elites skew systems to manipulate the personal gain they achieve whilst their contribution to the wellbeing of society is minimised.
The profit motive motivates people - hence its name. Remove motivation and you simply get stagnation and decay. It doesn't even work well in small communities - look at early American settlements whose charter stated socialist principles and was replaced with private property and capitalism because they were starving. You distribute the benefits of hard work and distribute the harm of lazy work. It incentivizes laziness.
Yeah - and we evolved to be sophisticated, thoughtful, creative beings using "the profit motive"? When we were running through the savannah chasing down animals it was the profit motive? I actually agree but with one small, BUT VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE - It was the collective profit motive! What you espouse is the selfish profit motive! People like you have evolved into the predators we always had to keep one eye over our shoulder for. Selfishness is at the root of capitalism - not altruism. When we evolved we were altruistic because survival of oneself meant the survival of the group - you lot aren't even predators! You are parasites!
Yes it was the profit motive when we were on the savannah chasing down animals. The return was food and that was worth more than the energy and time expended. When we met up back at camp and we traded food for a newly napped obsidian point we profited because we wanted the new spear tip more than we wanted all the meat (which would spoil).
You know very little about me to say anything about me let alone "people like me". If all you can offer are attacks then there is no point even attempting to have a conversation with you.
I will point out that selfishness is not wishing to keep what one has worked for however selfishness is wanting to get what someone else has worked for. You believe it is less selfish to have another labor for your gain than it is to labor for your own. Exactly which behavior better compares to a parasite?
I suggest you learn about markets before you decry them. You act as if supply has all the power in the world when it has exactly half.
Let's look at Biologist E. O. Wilson's site: "E.O. Wilson is now available for celebrity appearances, corporate appearances, personal appearances, casino appearances, tradeshow appearances, convention appearances, celebrity golf tournaments, coaching clinics, corporate sales meetings, autograph signings, endorsement deals, website endorsements, television commercials, radio commercials, store grand openings, VIP Meet & Greets, new product launch campaigns, spokesperson campaigns and speaking engagements. Hire E.O. Wilson to meet and mingle with your best corporate clients, friends and business associates. Contact our celebrity agents to find out about E.O. Wilson booking fees, costs, availability and upcoming appearance schedule." Wonder which percentage he falls into...
I wasn't holding the person up as someone to emulate on a personal level - I merely quoted a scientific analysis using work he carried out as a scientist. Some people in the 1% might share my concern for the future of our ecology but if their answer was to use genocide to reduce the impact of humans I would take up arms against the bastard!
It is NOT capitalism! It is unfettered greed. Capitalism says that if I work harder I should get paid more. And I will then invest in a business and benefit if that business does well. There is nothing bad about that (I think). What is killing people, animals, and the planet (and I agree on all that) is the uncontrolled greed (for money and power) of a relatively small number of people. There was capitalism back in the 50s, but back then, people cared about their families, their friends and neighbors, and their environment. PLEASE stop confusing greed with capitalism, you are playing right into their hands by doing that.
Though I agree that "capitalism" as a concept, if practiced with enough restraint, does not need to be scrapped entirely, the problem is that it has been allowed to run amok. And the problem is directly tied into the kind of statement that you made: "if I work harder I should get paid more" because that is not practiced in reality. Because the problem is our current society values certain work over others and as a pretty fucked up way of defining "working hard". Are you going to tell me that getting up in a mansion, driving in a BMW to a plush temperature-controlled office and sitting in it ---no matter how many "power lunches" or "strategy meetings" or "important deals" are made--- is "working harder" than someone who works three manual labor jobs outdoors all day every day? Do you see janitors advancing in the system on any kind of regular basis to become executive level management, outside the sanitation industry itself? Why not--- they are certainly "working hard"? Why? Because our society has a pretty warped view by now of what a "real job" is and what fields should be respected as "worthwhile" to society. Someone who does the necessary job of building the roads we all drive on, or scrubbing the public toilets we use is generally seen as "beneath" Wall Street crooks who "work hard" at devising ways to hog all the wealth for themselves. That's fucked up. The problem is that our society now only truly values ---and employs--- those in certain sectors: science, computers, and the manufacturing of an ever-dizzying array of useless products. Anything from the talking bass fish to cell phone charms to glow-in-the-dark condoms. These products are "conceptualized" in Very Serious Important Meetings where everyone is Working Really Hard and treated with A Whole Lotta Respect because they're Wearing Ties in order to continue justifying their existence, to continue to have the "growth" that keeps perpetuating it. The jobs of actually making the shit are outsourced to other countries, leaving gaping holes in our own, and these "innovators", these "titans of industry" become the new national heroes for all their "hard work" and anyone who doesn't subscribe to that as an ultimate purpose in life is relegated to "hippies" with "useless degrees" in things like history, art, that they should have been smarter about not pursuing... even as they were told "just work hard at whatever you do and you'll succeed... there is plenty of opportunity in this country if you just follow your passion and apply yourself." It was unfortunately a bill of goods because increasingly our country is only valuing an ever-dwindling number of occupations. Monopolies, basically. That IS based on greed, and the greed part has been allowed to dominate. If jobs were kept in this country, if there were regulations on rampant excessive capitalism, it would not be creating this endless horizon of consumption. It would have its proper limits which would funnel prosperity and job diversity back into the 99% and everyone would have a much fairer shake and many more options to pursue REAL dreams. Not just dreams of glow-in-the-dark condoms that talk.
The capitalist system is based on greed. It is practised most effectively by greedy people. It promotes self interest above the interests of communities and societies and it does not plan for any long term future. Explain to me how the "markets" will provide us with nuclear fusion or develop the next generation of antibiotics when the ones we have now become totally ineffective?
Well, I don't think that is capitalism. And the majority of what is happening in the markets is not capitalism - it is gambling. To me, capitalism means that you invest in a company, and stick with it in the hope that it will grow and prosper and you will get some of the reward. And as a part owner of the company, I expect to have some say in what goes on. But look at how Corporate America ACTUALLY works today. The FIRST ones to benefit (regardless of whether the company does well or not) are the executives. They are supported by utterly useless, rubber-stamp boards of directors that have no concept that they are supposed to be representing the owners of the company. Then the company holds sham annual meetings at which the shareholders (most of which are their cronies in the mutual fund industry) supposedly get to vote - and yet none of the votes are binding. What an absolute farce - that isn't capitalism, or at least not what I think most Americans understand what it should be. And the larger the company, the more rotten the system. Expecting politicians (you know, the ones that are owned by the corporations, but paid by us) to do anything about this is utterly futile. So the only way to change the behavior of these people is to starve them of the ONLY thing they care about - money. If you could move JUST FIVE PERCENT of your spending and your savings to community businesses, instead of just handing it all over to the corporations, that would catch their attention faster than anything else. I don't know any local shops that have offshored their jobs, but I don't know any corporate that HASN'T - which type of behavior do YOU want to reward? There are plenty of other countries that operate a capitalist system, yet they don't suffer from the uncontrolled pillaging of the middle classes that is happening in America (the Nordics is one example).
Junk science at its best.
I would love you to elaborate.
I blame it on oil. If not for oil more then half of us wouldn't have been born. Just look at the population explosion that happened after oil was turned into gas.
Capitalism also gave me diarrhea.
I fully believe that because capitalist politicians pollute the air we breathe with biological pollutants every time they talk - which is out of their arse!
Dumb.
What a great debater you are! Can you give me any tips on how I could put my opinion across better? I would really appreciate it if you would, because you manage to get your point across in such a succinct and expressive manner, that it puts my reasoned opinions to shame?
Dumb.
I can only kneel before your superior intellect and wait for more lessons from the Master!
Oh, by the way. Read "Eyes of the Tailless Animals" if you want to see what happens when the government takes over everything. You will hurl. I had to put the book down several time & work up the nerve to keep reading it. The starkest example I have ever seen of what some of the ideas coming out of this movement will do to my children.
And could you tell me pray, what the ideas coming out of this movement will do to our children? As it stands all I can see for the future of my children is increasing poverty while elites get richer! Seriously! Tell me? I mean it! I want better health care and a guarantee that everyone will get employment rather than exist in a benefit culture. Tell me how this movement detracts from that? Oh, by the way, If you are Glenn Beck - forget all that and just go away cos you are a lying self serving arsehole! That goes for you if you are Bill O'Reilly too.
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! I am a consumer, and I would personally rather support a company that I knew was green. If I found out my favorite paper company was exploiting people, trees, animals & polluting the environment & I found a company I could buy from that did not do those things, I WOULD BY FROM THE GREEN COMPANY, even if it meant I had to pay a few cents more, and I think most of us agree on that. You say these things, but then you probably also believe NAFTA was a mistake. When the other nations of the world come up to the economic prosperity that the US has, the US will no longer be able to afford to go over seas to buy goods & services. People are basically mini-economists- think about yourself & your choices. We have such great people here who want to do good, but it is so misplaced sometimes- if you want to make a difference, go start a small green, efficient business that does not depend on government for its livelihood- If you OWSers would go do that- WOW! I'd be on your side. Good luck making that difference- I'm all for it!
You totally miss the point m8. Corporations and small companies that would like to become corporations will never do what you want to see. Go buy from a "green" company if you can find one because they don't exist. Capitalism is about short term gain for a select few and long term needs are fucked by the markets. Answer me 2 questions :-
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
Capitalism is fine. Moral decay within capitalism is killing people. Once upon a time, the majority of capitalists had integrity and a code of ethics, but now the majority lacks those qualities.
Moral decay? Capitalism is fine? Can you please quote me any code of morality that stems from capitalism? Many religions espouse a moral code to justify their power over the great unwashed but I am buggered if I can think of any moral proselytisers who espouse capitalism? You have made me very curious! Go for it and teach me where this moral compass is taught to capitalists! It has obviously descended into only the most reclusive and arcane recesses of academia because I just can't find any references anywhere! Enlighten me please - I really need to read this rationale! Oh yeah - there are moral proselytisers of capitalism. I forgot - They mainly exist on Fox news :-P Sorry about that! The sight of Glenn Beck trying to make himself cry is bringing tears to my own eyes as I speak,,,,, Sorry but I'm just too upset.... I love this country! bwahh bwahahahaha
Huh? You're not responding to anything I said. Here, it's simple. Capitalism is making a profit from goods and services. It works well when all parties are honest. When it decays from lying and cheating, you get results like banks giving loans to people that can't afford them, then selling them as investments to private institutions under false pretenses, a la BoA. Or promoting an investment, then betting against it, a la Citigroup. There's nothing wrong with making a profit, it's wrong to lie to make it. Lying and cheating = moral decay, get it?
Making a profit means that things will never be self sustaining. Where does profit come from - it means getting paid for more than you contribute. Do ordinary workers make a profit by being paid a wage? The same is true for land ownership. You are definitely a supporter of the 1% and not one of the 99% I ally myself with.
You couldn't be more wrong about everything. Profit is getting paid for what you contribute after your expenses. I can't sustain myself without profit, no one can. I write music for a living and I have to charge more than it costs me to deliver my music or my effort is for free and I can't eat. When I get a gig to score a film, I have to hire an orchestra, copyists, editors, an orchestrator, a scoring stage with mixers, etc, and then there's my creative fee. If I only charged enough to pay the orchestra, etc, then I don't get my fee which is my profit or wage for my services. I think you meant you're with the 9.9 percent. The unemployed, that I'm trying to help. Btw, while the 99% slogan is catchy and a good way to promote the cause, it's in no way an accurate percentage of us vs them in reality.
Anything which uses more resources than it returns is unsustainable. As a musician you are apparently predisposed to an understanding of Mathematics. Are you aware of the word Equation? Profit is the driver of capitalism but it isn't the only economic system available! Fair reward for fair contribution is another. You only have to hire an orchestra under a capitalist system. Ever played a team game? Isn't everyone equal when you're kids? Why does it have to change when you become an adult? Sharing resources is what it's about - not letting someone steal them because the system lets them!
Knowledge, look into it. Using more resources, returns more. Capitalism may not work on your planet, but it works on Earth, when done right. No, kids are not equal. What have you shared=nothing. If you refuse to be a part of society, then you're helping the bankers that defrauded the US public and government of billions of dollars, not hurting them, which means you're just as big a problem as they are. Your ideas will work great if you're on a desert island by yourself, so have fun with that.
Rofl where did you learn to be such an idiot? Using more resources returns more? To who? Kids aren't equal? When does your eugenics programme start? Defrauding is a capitalist hobby you idiot! avoiding taxes by exporting capital to avoid taxes is an industry in itself. If you want to talk about desert islands look at some of the offshore havens that worldwide corporations use to avoid paying back some of the wealth that was created in your country!!! Look a few hundred miles away from your south east coast and you will find the Virgin Islands. Pretty inapropriate as they have been raping your tax laws for years. Check out how many of your corporations export their capital there to avoid paying taxes - moron!
Rofl where did you learn to be such an idiot? Using more resources returns more? To who? Kids aren't equal? When does your eugenics programme start? Defrauding is a capitalist hobby you idiot! avoiding taxes by exporting capital to avoid taxes is an industry in itself. If you want to talk about desert islands look at some of the offshore havens that worldwide corporations use to avoid paying back some of the wealth that was created in your country!!! Look a few hundred miles away from your south east coast and you will find the Virgin Islands. Pretty inapropriate as they have been raping your tax laws for years. Check out how many of your corporations export their capital there to avoid paying taxes - moron!
That's all I was stating, thanks for agreeing with me. Now you can fix it or keep on rambling on against yourself. You seem really angry and disoriented. With no facts and all the name calling, it's obvious that you dropped out of school in the third grade. If you would've stayed in school, you would've learned that it's not safe to eat lead paint.
become a vegetarian. lead by exampe.
I tried that very thing and had to revert to being an omnivore - with my blood group I become ill very quickly on a meat free Diet :-( However - hamburgers are definitely not on my menu!
Thank you for this. Needs to be said, I wish more truly understood (or cared about) the profoundly terrible human impact on our planetary ecosystem. The term Anthropocene is used to describe this era. Maybe Capitalocene would be more appropriate.
so did communism
Communism is one alternative to capitalism that has never been tried - argument why this is the case too long for a book let alone a comment. Communists changed their name from socialists when the media of the day made that a dirty word lol!
are you a moron its been way over tried
No m8 you are the moron - communism - or as it was originally called, socialism has never been tried. Stalinism and Maoism or any other ism are corruptions of socialism which have been gleefully exploited as examples by the capitalist system. Before you post any more comments in response to this try reading a few books of a higher order than the cat in the hat. I would suggest The communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels as a starter. It isn't very long but has a few big words in it so have a dictionary handy :-)
Worker's control has always been a fundamental tenet of socialism. It has nothing to do with nationalizing private property, which is communism, as interpreted by the Soviets. If you can't distinguish between the two, then we can't have an honest conversation.
GE Profits up 57%...but 'GE isn't the target of OWS...." What the hell ever you hypocrites!!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/22/business/ge-profit-up-despite-volatile-economy.html?_r=1
You've missed all the many posts against GE for paying 0% income tax???
Almost all those were my postings since October 13th. Seems like OWS wants to give GE & Immelt a pass because GE is in the White House with Obama. GE needs to vacate their office in the White House today!!!
What we have isn't Capitalism. We have a soft dictatorship. A ruling class. It just so happens, we're the serfs. And that sucks.
correct!
Says an American with more nuclear weapons than all the rest of the world put together. Why doesn't someone talk about the threat of 100% of the population being possibly wiped out.
OH please you are just brainwashed, this is not the real issue it’s a fake issue made up by the rich.
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there are a few things that we have done, there is no question but this planet also has a cycle. and we only affect a small part of it. so get of your high horse and leave if you dont like it and take your crazy ideas with you.
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Capitalism can be reformed.
Sheesh.
If you want to see pollution go to China. America is far from the hell hole they created. WHat a load of al gore.
And so your politicians signed up to the tokyo agreement yet? Nah profits for rich folks would suffer.
Tool.
Uninformed Brainwashed idiot. Now where did I put my dinosour?
probably in the drawer marked creation by design?