Forum Post: Can someone explain?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 16, 2011, 2:04 p.m. EST by Earthenware
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Can someone explain? Is this protest against "Capitalism" or the abuse of capitalism? Because I am still for capitalism but rewarding those that have greedily abused our system is a real problem. The government has given them money, excuse me guaranteed their loans, so they would not collapse,( preventing the loss of jobs and salaries). Well they got their money and we are still losing our jobs and our salaries are being held hostage. By them (Corporate America) keeping the money within they are loosing their consumer group, which is causing the collapse of economy. I also think that everyone needs to take a hard look at his or her own lives. See what kind of consumers that we have become. Instant/disposable, made anywhere but in the US?
Its really very simple. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. Republican Democracy as set forth in our constitution is a political system and not an economic system. Communism was a merger of socialism with a centralized government controlled economic system. What we have today is corporatism or a corporatocracy which Mussolini defined as Fascism:
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
I don't think there is a consensus right now. Fact is, people, by and large, are not protesting for a certain model of capitalism or other, or for the abolition of capitalism, or some other particular economic model, though of course some among the protesters advocate all of those things.
People are protesting against the current system which is obviously not working and is being abused and getting easier to abuse by a minority. That's bad. That's what everyone agrees on. Problems need to be recognized and taken seriously before solutions are found and implemented.
Some elements of the solution are emerging and getting broad acceptance : I think nearly everyone agrees campaign financing needs a serious look. I also think that most are not wholly against capitalism (or rather regulated free market).
I wholeheartedly agree that we have lost sight of our power as consumers and should wake up to it.
"Regulated" is the key word. Deregulation of the free market is absolutely part of the problem.
See Allan Grayson and Bill Maher on Occupy Wall Street
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQnSu0DG3Oo
Also, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=related
Grayson for president. I'd say Carlin for president if he were still alive. The silenced George Carlin for years because of his outspoken comments about the screw job Americans have been getting for decades. I've been a fan of his since the early '70's. He's always spoken the truth. Very intelligent man. Definitely missed.
Absolutely...Grayson...good person,citizen, and not a prostitute for the top 2%.
This protest is for the abuse of the 1% to the 99% though control of capitalism. Many feel capitalism is great when kept in it's proper place within our society, not used to run our society.
This protest is for the abuse of the 1% to the 99% though control of capitalism. Many feel capitalism is great when kept in it's proper place within our society, not used to run our society.
Earthenware,
Is this protest against "Capitalism" or the abuse of capitalism?
This topic has been discussed ad nauseum in this distinguished forum, it is hard to see how you could have missed it. The consensus of those with the most profound understanding of OWS came to the conclusion that:
The purpose of the this movement is to save capitalism from the capitalists.
I would like to thank all of those who responded. The majority of the posts were very helpful. Thanks.
Hmmmmm, rephrase the question. ------
If this has any effect will that be because it intiates a statewide cry for an Article V convention, the first constituional right of every American.
Congress is very afraid of an Article V because congress colludes with many, many entities unconstitutionally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
help collect this poll data, you and all the world can have that answer https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&pli=1&formkey=dFlNNHJTRlZwMWs5ZjlhTWN0NlZReHc6MQ#gid=0
we have lost sight that the resources exist to provide for the people of the United States
while some work is necessary to distribute these resources
the great balk of work is not
people don't need to work
they still want to work
to pursue projects that would enrich their lives
unfortunately many are unable to do that
because they must work for money
I think the protest, at the moment, is centered on the fact that we have lost our footing. There seems to be a general belief/consensus that the primarly reason is the undue influence of big money on the political process.
As to whether OWS is pro capitalism or against it, I don't think that a consensus has been reached on this as yet. What I find refreshing is that there is open debate and a variety of ideas are being listened to.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/october-16-concert-rally-nyc/
This fight could end in a few days if all of us would remove our funds from the banks. Without capital to deal on wall street and play with in the markets the financial system would soon realize the 99% are what make America tick.
It's the abuse of capitalism that the protest is against, if one reads more than just a few posts and seeks other information one would find several clearly written statements which support this supposition.
To Momcalled: I have 0 debt, can you say the same? My neighbors have relatively small debt, can you say the same of yours?
I've skimmed several of your replies and all of them have a negative theme. Perhaps if you presented a reasoned debate point your replies would merit a more thorough reading.
To PandoraK: Is this statement directed at me? "I've skimmed several of your replies and all of them have a negative theme. Perhaps if you presented a reasoned debate point your replies would merit a more thorough reading." Because I have taken great effort not to be negative. Negativity only attracts negative energy.
Please reread, I prefaced the comment with the Momcalled screen name.
Momcalled is a troll. Ignore it.
Sometimes it's fun to feed the trolls, give them a chance to show just how trollish they really are.
True. Some of their comments are quite entertaining.
Problem is that the bail outs and not letting the correction to occur. Also the root problem is the federal reserve creating, insuring, and giving special privileges to the large banks.
Watch this to learn more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc0T1kMc1d4&feature=share
This fight could end in a few days if all of us would remove our funds from the banks. Without capital to deal on wall street and play with in the markets the financial system would soon realize the 99% are what make America tick.
Thius fight could end in a few days if all of us would remove our funds from the banks. Without capitol to deal on wall street and play with in the markets the financial system would soon realize the 99% are what make America tick.
This would be like everyone taking a bucket of water from the well. The well would dry up and we would use all the water in our buckets just to survive.
DEAR INDIVIDUAL READING THIS, What must we as people do to fight this grave injustice inflicted upon us, by the ones who lust for power? How can we end the reign of the wicked and immoral and mete JUSTICE upon the oppressors as we have suffered from their hands-their blood stained hands... An idea of REVOLUTION-no, the act of revolution enacted by the proletarians! Must we as individuals ,as is always done, remain pawns to these people, these monoliths that we alone as individuals cannot surmounted...I surmise that we are not ignorant to the woes inflicted upon us by their enormities? We must UNIFY! Unity will be the way in which we assert ourselves!...While I realize all are not are not without income or funds and many cannot unify with this growing movement do to reasons of possible opposition and they being the people I'm question who we oppose (Wall Street), and many have responsibility they must tend to that take precedence. We must rise and vanquish this behemothto restore the equilibrium, for when disturbed it causes much chaos and strife in the hearts of man( man being neutral to represent all genders) in his mind and when mans mind and soul are in chaos as many are they rise to vanquish the pestiferous wealthy. However we should not just target these individuals, each of us individually must confront the corruption in our hearts, how can we judge the corrupt and deem them so when we cannot be amenable for ourselves we will surely be deemed hypocrites as we will be.....I am not meaning to say that this protest is in any way unjust, for far too long have we suffered, I mean that we are expected to expiate our sins -assume our parts in the problems we face and how we may have caused it. Yes, the Bankers on Wall Street are corrupt in ways we don't have evidence of without an investigation. But as we suffer soshall they, for we will make it so. But what of our government I say, my fellow citizens do not neglect to Confront the complicit in this affair for the roots of corruption are deeply seated, we have silent enemies amongst us-be warned that although succession in our goals will happen we may face a greater threat to our rights granted unto us from birth be prudent and circumspect. Another issue I wish to address is the idea of mans continual corruption as all things will be permeated with this darkness Inside our hearts.......when a system is created it always deviates from the righteous path, for nations we have learnt of in our education are littered with tales of nations that became corrupt and faded Into the ruin of collapse, we know that a society without corruption is utterly inconceivable, impossible in ways each and everyone of us know...for as long as men exist so shall our inner evil....but I digress from my original Intent of this passage and I ask forgiveness as we must forgive all in all eventual....the rising potentiality of this movement is quite an astonishment, I thought we were not capable of such things and thus I admit I had less faith in my fellow man. I see that we have all come to the realization of the need to bring the greedy to justice, although the reasons for your protesting may be unique to you, you share many goal, I had prognostications, inklings seems more appropriate of a term, that one day man would wake to realize the greater truth outside of his/her reality, and break the cycles of obsession with superficial base needs and trite motives, a dull and predictable lot we were but we've surpassed that I hope....for if not we will founder and fall Into the patterns we had grown so accustomed to, living such prosaic pedestrian lives stultified by the elite and of our own ignorance we always have the means to educate ourselves in this age, we have no limits to what we may learn based on our status in society, the powerful can no longer succeed in keeping us stupefied we have freewill to reason and learn and form our own ideas, ideas that would otherwise have died by the hands of the bigots! Our endeavours shall be crowned with fruition of our goals for our will allows it, we have broken free from the will of the oppressors......as Desmond Tutu stated "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." YOURS TRULY-Aaron Thomas Bridge
In my opinion, this isn't an issue about any "ism" because they are all based on the same monetary system. This is about an honest redistribution of wealth. Everyone should agree on where the wealth inequality comes from. It comes from land concentrated in the hands of a few. We can redistribute the wealth by taxing the rent from land and using it for the public.
The theory of economic rent has been around for some time, but land taxation has seldom been implemented throughout history. It is well known that the factors of production are composed of land, labor and capital. Land, in the economic sense, can be explained as anything with a productive capacity that has not been created by men or women, but has value created by the community. Labor is any human energy spent , whether by the mind or through brute force, that contributes to a means of production. Capital is mainly what is spent from savings for future production. Under the current system, mainly labor and capital are taxed, while the landed elite make out like bandits with the rents that are created by the community! It is no surprise that civilizations have suffered from vast inequalities since the founding of the first governments.
What we need to fight for is a redistribution of these economic rents for the sake of the people, while at the same time reducing the tax rates on labor and capital. These rents from land are the source of all wealth and are presently held by a small number of wealthy people who will speculate and slow there productive capacity in order to increase profits.
This demand goes out to the people of OWS! If there is one thing we need to change in order to promote equality, environmental protection and job creation through increased productive capacity, this is the solution we need. Please read about economic rent and land taxation in order to fully grasp the concept.
This is something proven in theory and not based on anyone's personal opinion or ideology. While we are divided on many things, it's time to come together with some real demands to benefit the majority of unrepresented individuals of the world. Lets show the top 1% that we know where their unearned wealth is coming from and that we know exactly what is needed in order to bring them back to the real world!
Are you saying you are entitled to money because you exist; that you have a claim to the .2 acres my house sits on? People do pay taxes on land which yes is determined by the area the land resides in.
And you said people pay taxes on land. Please show me where. Property taxes are not the same as land taxes. You are entitled to any improvements you make on your land. I only propose that the rent is for everyone in the community. These are two completely different things.
No, I did not say entitlement. Rent and land in an economic sense is a surplus that is created by the comminity. An example is if you have a house in the middle of nowhere, you have a set price for that land. As people move in around you your land value goes up without any additional work from you personally. This additional value is what I propose to tax. You didn't contribute to that rise in value, the division of labor of the community made that value rise. Why should you be entitled to profit from land speculation? It should be profit of the community. And I don't mean you personally, I mean anyone. This is not my opinion BTW, this is based on sound economics.
Still don't quite get it. I pay taxes which benefit my community. Many of the rural areas around me have higher taxes because there are less individuals to share responsibility for the schools and other public ammenities. I also have a hard time imagening myself being forced to pay this added tax or move because I happen to be in a place that went up in value. Sorry it's going to be a tough sell, I'm still a big believer in the abilities of individuals.
Unless you own a ton of land, this tax will be less than what you pay in income tax. The whole idea is to allow people who don't own anything to keep their wages. I don't know what you do, what you own, or what you make. But, if you work for a living and own a modest home, you will most likely pay less in taxes under this system. If you pay rent or a mortgage, you would pay no taxes.
Abuse of Capitalism. Too few control too much. You no longer have a voice. They say you do in the voting booth, but this has been sold as well.
The more I get involved, the more I believe that this is Current Administration attention diversion. Blame the Wall Street but keep away from Washington DC. This looks like Obama's Winning Scheme OWS for 2012. I am still supporting it may be I will be wrong one day.
Hallelujah! I could have written the same thing. I won't march on banks when they are only doing what Govt allows them. Some of these banks refused to take TARP money as I recall. I place all blame on our Govt. They made the rules for these banks to play by, now the banks are taking over the White House, so maybe that's what ows sees: that the wh is really wall street. My opinion is our Govt is actually hell bent on destroying America lock stock and barrel to usher in the NWO where America will be military might around the world and all opposed can live out their lives in FEMA camps. That's what I see. Obama is a criminal and traitor and so is Bernanke. It's economics 101 to lower taxes, increase interest rates, deregulation, and stop spending during economic hard times, which would have the effect of a rise in the value of the dollar and lowering of prices (deflation) which would be good for lower and middle classes. Our govt is doing the opposite because they are criminals. If we live to 2012, Ron Paul must win or America will be full blown dictatorship. There will be a revolution no matter what.
But like you, I believe Capitalism is good, not bad. What we have now is corrupted capitalism. I will read up on the fundamentals of Capitalism today. There's a free economics course on tomwoods.com and he also has excerpts from books and article on Capitalism you might be interested in. When people are ready to march on Washington, I'll join.
Many more people will come to your side when you are proactive (for “new” Business & Government solutions), instead of reactive (against “old” Business & Government solutions), which is why what we most immediately need is a comprehensive “new” strategy that implements all our various socioeconomic demands at the same time, regardless of party, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management System of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves; that is, using a Focused Direct Democracy organized according to our current Occupations & Generations. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategically Weighted Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
because we need 100,000 “support clicks” at AmericansElect.org to support a Presidential Candidate -- such as any given political opportunist you'd like to draft -- in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Most importantly, remember, as cited in the first link, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress according to your current Occupation & Generation, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Therefore, any Candidate (or Leader) therein, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. In this, sequence is key.
Why? Because there are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc.
The FIRST step in Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters according to your current Occupation & Generation.
So please JOIN the 2nd link so we can make our support clicks at AmericansElect.org when called for, at exactly the right time, by an e-mail from that group, in support of the above the bank-focused platform. If so, then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within the above strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) of your current Occupation & Generation.
"or the abuse of capitalism"
That pretty much hits the nail on the head.
I think every protester needs to know this fact (link below):
From a dailymail.co.uk article printed on Oct 15th 2011 (YESTERDAY!!)
"Meet Americas 10 highest paid bosses"- quote
"The numbers, while staggering, may not be the most shocking aspect of the list: geography is.
None of the top 10 earning CEOs are from Wall Street, or even the financial sector. Three are from healthcare companies(McKesson, Express Scripts and UnitedHealth Group), two from fashion houses (Ralph Lauren and Coach), one from real estate (Vornado Realty), one from entertainment (Disney), one from internet travel (Priceline.com), one from advertising (Omnicom Group) and one from oil and gas (Ultra Petroleum)."
DID YOU CATCH THAT? NONE of the top paid CEO's are from WALL STREET OR EVEN THE FINANCIAL SECTOR! So why did your organizers choose Wall Street in the first place?????
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049405/Meet-Americas-10-highest-paid-bosses-Forbes-list-wealthiest-CEOs.html#ixzz1ayBhM4oq
OWS movement loves capitalism and they got nothing against rich people. what they don't love is corruption, greed and fraud that wall street do every day and the way wall street has successfully bought the political system in form of donations/bribes. Democrats and Republicans they all do there bidding. That means the people of America got nothing to say any more. Democracy is basically an illusion
The "illusion" is convincing the world it doesn't exist. Democracy, voting starts at the lower levels of government. Your township/boro/town/city government. Who you vote for there represents you at the county level. And who you vote for at the county level represent you at the state level and state vote at the federal level,. One vote in comparison to all the votes in a Fed. election might seem trivial but your vote and participation at the other levels of gov. decides the electoral vote (our president), our congress and house of representatives.
Then why do ows protesters continue to scream "down with capitalism"? Why not scream "Down with Corporatism or Fascism". Why not march on Merck; they're the ones who make Gardisol to drug 12 yr old girls to "prevent" cervical cancer. Hell, ChrisBrown of Cal just made it a law; and Rick Perry would have done the same thing in Texas if he wasn't voted down. I believe the American Population is under siege from many factions: the Banksters, BigPharma, Chemical corporations, and dirty Govt.
I'm afraid that our tyrannical govt is diverting ows to do govt bidding. I do hear many people protesting want more entitlements. This is definitely in line with Obama regime goals: get the people dependent on govt until they scream for bigger govt and more handouts. No, we need the Constitution. How come no one is screaming for a return for the U.S. Constitution. Is there anything better anywhere?
I believe at least 60% don't know what they're screaming for but are just disgruntled as I am. In any case, yelling their dissatisfaction is good and I hope it mushrooms into a march on Washington. Count me in - I'm ready with torch and pitchfork.
In response to "Then why do ows protesters continue to scream "down with capitalism"? " Did you ever think that is what the media is focusing on? And to OWS, the media is a doubled edged sword. If you want your true message to get out there you have to scream louder. And I am tired of everyone blaming the government. We, the people , demand that the government do everything, be everything, instead of us taking personal responsibility.
You can all ways find nut jobs or infiltrators in a crowd its very easy. You cant look at individuals look at the crowd and the movement.
That was the reason for my original post. I don't think enough people do know the "real" (maybe I mean fundamental) reason for the movement. And think they need to know. Good luck!
Agree! But how can something that has become so complex be unraveled without unraveling.How can we regulate this system, without government involvement? Obviously self regulating hasn't worked either. We as a people need to regulate ourselves. Too many of us want those reality/rich lives now (a lot of times without putting the hard work into it) and that is how we get scammed. And capitalism isn't just the rich it's about the ability for anyone to become "rich". And riches are about more then money.