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Forum Post: Can someone explain something

Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 22, 2011, 5:42 p.m. EST by OWSOWSOWS (5)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

With power comes money, and with money comes power, so why do you want to raise taxes and give the government more power?

If everyone here is capable of creating this hugely successful push, you're perfectly capable of getting a job and providing for yourself and not letting the government provide for you. After all, the government is unreliable; take it upon yourself to provide for yourself.



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[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Is it right for the Forbes 400 richest Americans to hold trillions of dollars in wealth? Is it all right with you that so few people hold so much wealth, more wealth than many billions of people combined? Doesn't that remind you of medieval times, or feudalism, or slavery, or something thought to be eradicated, like polio? Is this a healthy state for our world? Does it give people optimism, hope, and the chance to dream of their futures? Does it give us incentives to do our best, develop our talents and potential, and live well?

[-] 0 points by OWSOWSOWS (5) 12 years ago

What is wrong with building wealth? If you don't like it, then you should live in a socialist state. You would probably be a happier person.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Building wealth is like building power. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Though the vast majority of people do mean well, there are a few who don't. Right?

What do you need to be happy? Do you really need billions of dollars? Hasn't someone equated that with "greed?" Is "greed good?" No, really. Do you really think building wealth is a socially worthy goal?

Many would argue in similar veins. "What's wrong with taking drugs?" is often asked. It doesn't appear to hurt anyone else, right?

Please do not insult those who are interested in solving problems by suggesting they move away. Be better than that.

[-] 1 points by OWSOWSOWS (5) 12 years ago

If you're talking about greed on behalf of the government and elected officials, then yes greed absolutely has a negative affect on the citizenry. Greed in the private sector however, has a much smaller impact on uninvolved parties. Who cares if the buffets and bransons and gates of the world have billions, it has little affect on regular people.

Comparing greed to drug abuse is like apples and oranges. 99% of heroin comes from fields in afganistan controlled by terrorist cells. If you do heroin you contribute to terrorism, period.

This country is built on capitalism, it has proven to work better than any other option. If someone likes socialism or some other method better, MOVE THERE. Don't send this great country back in time, using policies that been proven to fail.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Who cares if the government has billions; it has little effect on regular people. Right?

Government products and services are given to us in return for our taxes. Private sector products and services are given to us in return for our payments. But in your view the government is bad, while the private sector is good.

Where in our constitution does it say "capitalism" or "the free market" is the basis for our country's existence? Since when is capitalism, or even civilization for that matter, a proven concept?

Why don't you move to Afghanistan, Somalia, or other place with shrunken government? MOVE THERE yourself. Stop projecting onto others your unconscious biases and motives while you're at it. Stop being so insulting in this forum. How old are you? Try to stay on topic. Stop telling people to move. That is just not appropriate here. Be focussed. We have real problems that need real solutions. Try to grow up for a change. Get a life.

Terrorists cells flourish in places where they are allowed to flourish. Why don't you look at reality? There is no functional government in Afghanistan. You are completely deluded in thinking otherwise.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 12 years ago

Greed isn't necessarily earning a lot.

Buffett, for example, works with a partner to improve the companies that they buy a piece of. They've earned a lot doing it.

That is different from, say, GE, which closed a fully funded pension plan that hadn't cost them a penny in 10 years, so they could register an accounting advantage which inflates executive salaries. Many companies have done it. That's greed in action.

This practice has led to the demise of secure retirements for millions of employees, while jacking up SERPs, which are mega-retirements for executives, and multi-million deferred compensation schemes.

This is a rough outline of a complex mess, but the result has been to drain the middle class of resources in order to benefit the few, who have more than anyone ever needs already.

Recommended reading: The Retirement Heist

[-] 1 points by OWSOWSOWS (5) 12 years ago

Pensions are the most costly expense a company can have, In order to maintain the bottom line there are sacrifices. Without these sacrifices the entire company sinks, and everyone, including shareholders, employees and consumers, lose. The day of the pension is done, people need to learn to provide for themselves, and make personal contributions to their own retirement account. You don't need some fancy left-wing book to learn this, business 101.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Pensions are a contractual agreement.

Civilization only exists where contractual agreements are honored and upheld.

Why don't you MOVE THERE, meaning to a place where there is no government to uphold the RULE OF LAW, so you can become a happier person?

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 12 years ago

Except when the pension fund is fully funded, or even overfunded, and the company bleeds the fund through accounting gimmicks for the benefit of a few executives.

They will of course claim that they have no choice, the company has to do it to be competitive. Sometimes that's sort of true. One way to tell: they have the top chosen few making sacrifices.

Research has shown, however, that it is often a lie. It's an effective and widely accepted lie.

The wider (not just pension issues) research on how executives and board members use corporate resources to benefit themselves rather than the shareholders or other stakeholders is called "the agency problem". Please google it. You won't be able to read all of it, because it is a huge mass of material, and academic economic research is tough slogging. But just skim the variety of what has been found on the topic.

[-] 2 points by MichaelSJordan (3) 12 years ago

Fact is the government is so shattered and broken up, nothing gets done, and that is how big businesses like it.

The whole system needs retooling. Our government was build on papers designed to organize rich slave owners that were worry about losing profits from abolitionism.

[-] 2 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

This is the absolute truth. Surely we can do better than this, with our relatively new found ability to communicate and organize so rapidly. Surely we can improve on old, inequitable systems.

[-] 1 points by OWSOWSOWS (5) 12 years ago

The problem is not business. GE paying zero tax is not GE's fault, it's the governments fault for allowing it to occur in the first place. I think everyone agrees that it's wrong, but remember to differentiate between smart business and weak governmental leadership.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

You display an appalling naivete regarding lobbyists' financial power to get congress to pass laws representing their special interest in, say, reversing the progressivity of the tax code just for those at the very top of the income pyramid. You're just a mouthpiece spewing their talking points. It's the "broken record" approach to brainwashing the rest of us. Pretty soon you'll just be ignored.

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Who says the problem is business? Who said that? Where do you get your talking points? Is someone paying you? Are you being fed these lines by one of those very greedy socioopathic tenth of a percent who own billions of dollars? Or maybe you are one of them yourself, since you seem absolutely immune to reality.

This is not to say that every, or even most, wealthy people are sociopathic. Sociopathic people should not be allowed power over others, since they will actually act cruelly. But the vast majority of people, wealthy or poor, are decent and want what's best for everyone, not just themselves. The very wealthy often create a show of philanthropy, however. I prefer to express my patriotism by paying my taxes every April 15.

[-] 1 points by MichaelSJordan (3) 12 years ago

All you need is a hand full of positions in the pocket and it breaks any changes that might save us all allot of problems.

[-] 1 points by poltergist22 (159) 12 years ago

check it out this is what we should do and what has caused this www.nationalday911.org

[-] 1 points by OWSOWSOWS (5) 12 years ago

Sorry, I don't give the government one penny more than I have to. The idea of yet another federal fund boggles my mind. It's a great idea, but any money that goes into the governments hand will be either stolen or misspent.

[-] 1 points by poltergist22 (159) 12 years ago

What if we could put a group together that is above corruption,ideology,or influence? They are few and far between but this would honestly put into perspective how we CARE. We could show the world we CARE and we will sacrifice to make things better for everyone. It wouldn't just be about the money it would be a huge psychological boost uniting everyone in a cause for good. After 9/11 and everything that followed would one day make a difference .......

[-] 1 points by ebri (419) 12 years ago

Are you really sorry? Are you really sorry that humanity ever came up with the concept of government in the first place? Are you sorry that capitalism was ever allowed to thrive? Are you sorry Adam Smith meant "the invisible hand" of the free market can only operate with transparency of information? Are you sorry democratic systems of government were ever invented, and then transferred to our continent two hundred forty years ago? Are you sorry we developed anti-trust legislation and allowed unionization? Are you sorry we developed cures for many major diseases through corporate-government-university research and development and cooperative efforts like that? Are you sorry we ever came out of the Great Depression?

You are merely a shill and after this I have no more time or energy for you. Your delusion is self-evident.