Forum Post: bye bye
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 18, 2011, 6:57 p.m. EST by polo
(63)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
if u hate the way our great country is run and want redistribution then leave. we would all be better off without u. but stop taking advantage of ur freedoms and dont forget there r people much worse off then u. why not help them? rather selfish not help right?
I love the way Americans want Americans with a different view then them to leave America. It's just un-American. LOL! There certainly is an ignorant bunch opposing OWS.
Yes, broken, barely English requests for me to leave my country because of my opinion are hilarious aren't they?
Quisling.
You leave. Do you not understand that our constitution says we have the right to change or get a new government if the people want it? You assholes on the right know nothing about what made this country you are more totalitarian then anyone on the left in this country.
the people dont want it! only about 1500 of u around the world do and u can even agree what u want from it
I couldn't really tell what you said do to the horrible grammar but I think you missed my point. My point is you people say you love America for the freedom yet when people exercise that freedom you tell them to leave. You're a hypocrite period. BTW there's way more than 1500 of us but i guess you don't pay much attention which seems correct.
ur not exercising ur freedom, ur exercising ur stupidity and trying to force ur idea onto the masses who dont really agree withu. but ur right i dont pay much attention to u because ur wasting ur time while im busy working to actually accomplish something with my life
I'm sure you are, and how exactly am i not exercising freedom of speech? Oh yeah it's not your opinion so i'm un-american. I forgot that's how you righties worked. Haha
ur sitting in a privately owned park in nyc and trying to block traffic while making lower manhattan smell like a dump. no talking involved
Freedom of assembly then asshole. Oh yeah and people are speaking again you're a dumb asshole.
the freedom of a few rich people should not encroach on the freedom of the many. Money should not be fundamental determining factor of the quality of a persons life. That is what we are actually mad about.
OMG the " if you don't like America then you can get out!"... It has been a long time old friend!
The answer to your first demand is 'no'. Deal with it.
Of course most of us try to help those less fortunate. This movement is an extension of that. Again, deal with it.
We have been mislead by Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and nearly every other public figure. Economic growth, job creation, and actual prosperity are not necessarily a package deal. In fact, the first two are horribly misunderstood. Economic growth/loss (GDP) is little more than a measure of wealth changing hands. A transfer of currency from one party to another. The rate at which it is traded. This was up until mid ’07′ however, has never been a measure of actual prosperity. Neither has job creation. The phrase itself has been thrown around so often, and in such a generic political manner, that it has come to mean nothing. Of course, we need to have certain things done for the benefit of society as a whole. We need farmers, builders, manufacturers, transporters, teachers, cops, firefighters, soldiers, mechanics, sanitation workers, doctors, managers, and visionaries. Their work is vital. I’ll even go out on a limb and say that we need politicians, attorneys, bankers, investors, and entertainers. In order to keep them productive, we must provide reasonable incentives. We need to compensate each by a fair measure for their actual contributions to society. We need to provide a reasonable scale of income opportunity for every independent adult, every provider, and share responsibility for those who have a legitimate need for aid. In order to achieve and sustain this, we must also address the cost of living and the distribution of wealth. Here, we have failed miserably. The majority have already lost their home equity, their financial security, and their relative buying power. The middle class have actually lost much of their ability to make ends meet, re-pay loans, pay taxes, and support their own economy. The lower class have gone nearly bankrupt. In all, its a multi-trillion dollar loss taken over about 30 years. Millions are under the impression that we need to create more jobs simply to provide more opportunity. as if that would solve the problem. It won’t. Not by a longshot. Jobs don’t necessarily create wealth. In fact, they almost never do. For the mostpart, they only transfer wealth from one party to another. A gain here. A loss there. Appreciation in one community. Depreciation in another. In order to create net wealth, you must harvest a new resource or make more efficient use of one. Either way you must have a reliable and ethical system in place to distribute that newly created wealth in order to benefit society as a whole and prevent a lagging downside. The ‘free market’ just doesn’t cut it. Its a farce. Many of the jobs created are nothing but filler. The promises empty. Sure, unemployment reached an all-time low under Bush. GDP reached an all-time high. But those are both shallow and misleading indicators. In order to gauge actual prosperity, you must consider the economy in human terms. As of ’08′ the average American was working more hours than the previous generation with far less equity to show for it. Consumer debt, forclosure, and bankruptcy were also at all-time highs. As of ’08′, every major American city was riddled with depressed communities, neglected neighborhoods, failing infrastructures, lost revenue, and gang activity. All of this has coincided with massive economic growth and job creation. Meanwhile, the rich have been getting richer and richer and richer even after taxes. Our nation’s wealth has been concentrated. Again, this represents a multi-trillion dollar loss taken by the majority. Its an absolute deal breaker. Bottom line: With or without economic growth or job creation, you must have a system in place to prevent too much wealth from being concentrated at the top. Unfortunately, we don’t. Our economy has become nothing but a giant game of Monopoly. The richest one percent already own nearly 1/2 of all United States wealth. More than double their share before Reagan took office. Still, they want more. They absolutely will not stop. Now, our society as a whole is in serious jeapordy. Greed kills.
if u just redistribute and give money to everyone there is no reason to work and then what?
I never suggested that.
"distribute that newly created wealth" sounds like u want to pass it around to everyone. by doing that without a "lagging downside" would be impossible with communism or a dictator
You're taking that line way out of context. Look further up. I made it crystal clear that we need a system to provide reasonable incentives for all those who contribute. A reasonable scale of income opportunity. Opportunity for those willing to contribute. That's not Marxism, Socialism, or Communism. That's modest Capitalism.
thats how it is now...there r plenty of opportunities but for some reason u all seem to think that bc they r hard to find u need to protest and hate on those who have capitalized on their opportunities
opportunities like serving sugar-laden coca cola, making bombs that kill people, or drilling up oil that poisons the air? The people who capitalized on those ideas have made people sick with diabetes, destroyed others homes, and made the earth filthier than we ever could have imagined. What about making art to manipulate people into buying useless junk made by wage-slaves in China? These are all lucrative opportunities, monetarily, but there is a growing number of us who don't want to do that shit. Ever. Not even for money. We'd rather go out in the street and protest than work for scum companies that tell farmers they don't own their own crops, because GMO pollen drifted into their valley and now Monsanto is filing a lawsuit against them. It's not as simple as "Go out and get a job," because some of the highest paid positions just plain fuck things up for everyone else.
Go work on the Death Star! They're hiring!
Is this really news to people? That America is an empire?
ur not happy about drinks? safety? or being able to drive? those people who have created coke bottle water and send it to earth quake victims and they make drinks that im sure u drink, unless u only like pond water? they make weapons that lock rapist and killers up. they let u drive and heat ur homes and invest capital into companies that can clean the ozone. if u really just want to walk 20miles to get water and food then move to africa.
Why wish water scarcity on anyone? Aren't the very same weapons used by the very same rapists and killers? And the weapons they sell to people to start wars the fats cats can't fight in public? Iran-Contra ring a bell? I don't drink any of coca cola's products, but why are you so sure that I do? Maybe Haiti wouldn't need bottled water if it wasn't impoverished by Neoliberal policies and international banks? Maybe they wouldn't need our help, like Cuba doesn't. Driving is more dangerous than owning a handgun or flying in an airplane, did you forget that? Hospitals kill a third of the people that they treat. You want me to go into Western medicine so I can mumble about there's no cure for cancer for 50 years? Do you realize they advertised cigarettes to children? And that they fertilized the crops with radioactive chemicals? Hell, it'd be more fun to drive if my car ran on something efficient. Safety? There are fewer and fewer safe places/things to do/jobs in this country, but trickle-down economics says that paying the rich will help the poor-- isn't happening, just ask the millions out of work. The ozone? There wouldn't be widespread environmental destruction if Americans were never sold the idea that it was moral to be an empire, to buy things they don't need and never wanted anyway, to throw them away just for the image of it. The blame-the-victim get-a-job Rah-Rah just falls on deaf ears, now, captain; too many people have seen beyond the veil.
there are lots of rapist that dont use weapons and lots of killers that u rope, kitchen knives, and alike..should that all be illegal? And cuba is what u want to be like? their cities r run down and the people r afraid of the government, thats why so many came here. Im sure this is all Americas fault right? we destroyed the ozone, china had nothing to do with that, and we morally bankrupted the world with our manufacturing. if u want to go tibet and meditate in fresh air go for it
I'd rather stay here and fight for my homeland that be pushed around by petty thugs with poor spelling and sloppy grammar. Do you remember that China conquered Tibet? Ever watched "The Power of Community?" It's not just America, captain, it's the imperialist culture that hides under the name "Globalism." Do you remember that America cut off Cuba completely, from everything? Even after the missiles had gone? I never said guns should be illegal, but I have a serious issue with making rockets that cost upwards of a million dollars to operate--- does the economics pattern mention here elucidate how convoluted 2nd Amendment issues have become these days? I can go to Walmart and buy a rifle, ammo, etc. and even go and pay to be trained how to use it, but I will never be allowed to buy my own M-1 Abrams tank or a Hum-Vee with a pain-ray mounted to it. How the hell could I fix that? Is that really what the founding Patriarchs intended: for the citizenry to pay massive taxes so a few people could benefit from the government permanently out-gunning the lower class? How is this lost on people?
i never said tibet wasnt conquered. and i dont shop at walmart so i wouldnt no
Thats not how it is now. I said reasonable incentives for productivity and a reasonable scale of income opportunity for all. $260,000,000 for a talk show host is not reasonable. Again, the heavy concentration of wealth causes hardship for the lower majority.
I agree that is a lot for a talk show host.. That person is making that because they have an audience that react to advertisers. If people stop watching or listening his salary will show it.
if u want something work hard to get it. oprah was born to unwed black signal parents in poverty in a racist south. if she can find oppertunity during that time im sure u can too. instead of hating money why not embrace it. work hard to get what u want and stop focusing in on other people.
You fail to realize that we dont hate money we hate the people who control the money and who got us into our current problems. People like Oprah are the exception rather than the rule, despite what an accomplishment she made she also had a hell of a lot of luck.
no u seem to hate the idea of them. if u herd where many of them started u would understand that they r not evil morally bankrupt people.
Where you start means nothing its what you become that matters, digging yourself out of shit by dragging other people into it does not improve you in any way.
I never said I hate the rich though, I hate the rich who use their money to abuse the system and the people. People like Steve Jobs are different because they actually bothered to improve lives other than their own, they are also firmly in the minority.
saying you don't like "rich" people is the same as saying you don't like blacks, jews, women, or whatever else sub-group.. its prejudice.. you didn't like steve jobs... the ignorance of some of the poeple in ows is disturbing
I'm doing alright. Lower middle class but I don't need much. It's the majority I'm worried about. So the answer is 'no'. I won't make any excuses for the wealth concentrating pigs.
pigs? they r people too and they have been fortunate and yes some life the ponzi schemer are terrible but most are hard working and opportunistic people who do give back.
Wow. Mcc.
You did a great job of introducing three things the original poster (polo) never mentioned- Economic Growth, Job Creation, and actual Prosperity-and then lecturing him (polo) on how wrong he is about those things!!!
I'll have to check the dictionary, but I'm fairly certain that you just demonstrated a perfect example of using rhetoric and propaganda. Well done.
Expand on that first paragraph and have a debate with me on the issues. I have all night. Bring it on.
Why thank you for the invitation. But I have no interest in debating someone who has already demonstrated that they either lack the proper knowledge of the rules and principles involved in honest, moral debate OR has zero regard for them.
But buck up. I'm sure someone who enjoys engaging in futile exercises that accomplish nothing will be along soon enough.
I'll be civil with anyone who is willing to do the same. If you think I'm wrong on the issues, then debate them with me.
I agree with you that greed is the issue. But even the poor can be greedy. It is impossible to set up any system, no matter how fair, or how honest that system is and expect it to remain honest and fair as long as people continue to be unfair and dishonest.
Systems are inert. They have no conscious. No morals. No accountability. Systems are only as good, or bad, as the people who operate within them.
You and I can debate the effects bad people cause until we both pass out from lack of oxygen and food...but it will solve NOTHING, at least not for long. The problem we need to solve is the CAUSE, not the effects.
I agree with all of that. Maybe we just have different strategies.
It doesn't matter what the strategy ends up being-if it does not address the root CAUSE-it will only be a stop gap at best. We have a system that has produced the most prosperous nation in the history of the world. Even our "poor" are WEALTHY compared to the rest of the world's poor.
And we want to destroy that system? To turn it into WHAT model that we can prove will work better? Isn't the first and most obvious answer that we remove those who are currently corrupting "the system" and replace them with people who will not-and monitor the crap out of them?
It worked much better for the majority 30 years ago. Now, it works primarily for the rich. Again, again, again, and again. I don't want to destroy capitalism. I've already stated what I want.
30 years ago people were expected to be moral, honest, and upright. We held people accountable. We were intolerant of things that had the potential to destroy our society. 30 years ago a generation of protesters demanded free love, tolerance for everything, no judgements against anything. Tolerance. Acceptance. Of everyone and everything.
And when they grew up, they started infiltrating our government. Since they don't believe in judging people as "good or bad", morally right or morally wrong- they have no problems taking money from rich evil bastards as long as it advances their own MUCH more elevated agenda. They withheld the legislation that would have prevented banks from loaning money to subprime mortgage companies because they wanted to see their vision of "everyone owns a home" come true. And when that failed, they couldn't allow the truth to get out-because people wouldn't want them in office and they have SO much more to do.
And WE are letting them stay. Why? Because WE are selfish. WE want people to view US as compassionate and smart and good, so we believe in the idiots who tell us how compassionate they are and how smart they are and how good their agenda is.
The fact is that human beings are so selfish, so ego centric, that they refuse to dig into any information or facts that could possibly reveal that they were wrong. That they took the bait. That they helped the bad guys.
Why do you think some people react with so much anger and vitriol and violence when you try to show them evidence that might prove they have been tricked or mistaken? Honest, good, moral people would be shocked, confused, completely taken aback to hear that someone may have taken advantage of them. They'd want to look at the evidence and see for themselves. And if the evidence proved they'd made a mistake, they'd be the first to admit that and try to correct it.
The guilty refuse to look, cannot afford to, and go on OFFENSE immediately to intimidate and sidetrack their accusers. The louder and more insulting they become and the faster they do it, is in direct proportion to the control their ego has over them.
Basic human behavior.
What you're referring to was more like 45 years ago.
Those sub-prime loans were put on the market because they were incredibly profitable. They artificially inflated the market for over a decade. As the home prices rose, those who fell behind on ARMs had no choice but to forfeit their homes with little or no equity. The homes were foreclosed and put back on the market for additional profit. The plan worked like a charm for over a decade. There wasn't an ounce of good will involved. It was a cruel and calculated plan in effect from it's inception in '93'. Made Henry Paulson a billionaire.
Greed is usually of a material nature. It's destroying any chance we ever had at world prosperity. That's why I'm here. Not for the kudos.
There is only one chance any of us will ever have of obtaining world prosperity. But less and less people are willing to believe in or worship or even bother to consult the one Being who has the key.
Mankind, for literally thousands of years have tried system after system, government after government, country after country. And no matter how smart or enlightened or capable or creative we've become-we have failed.
All that remains to be seen is how many more times we'll get to fail.
Idiot, this is what OWS is about - helping people "worse off" in this country
this country is doing fine in comparison. greece is overflowing with trash now and countries like china have no rights. if u want to protest do it there
Go tell it to all the jobless people whose homes were foreclosed on
they made bad decisions. thats not my fault and i would rather be homeless here then china so if u wan to protest do it there or maybe cambodia where children r sold as sex slaves
my dad could work minimum wage, go to the same college i did, get a degree in accounting and graduate with 0 debt. doing the same job for the same hours, going to the same college, and getting the same degree, it is impossible for me to graduate without thousands of dollars in debt.
this is due to the scam of the student loan system and how it works - it benefits schools, and it benefits lenders and the government, the way that the government has set it up. the lenders and government actually make more money if a student defaults on their loan. the system also puts upward pressure on prices, which is why the price is up 10x and the quality of the product is not 10x better. if you don't understand that this is one of many legit problems out there, you're an idiot.
i am in college and have over 100k in students loans but i have worked hard, gotten internships and have gotten job offers. if u take advantage of ur opportunities and work hard and dont spend stupidly then the USA is going to be great for u. laziness is ur problem
I find it ironic that you speak of laziness and yet, you can't be bothered to spell words all the way in your posts.
Oh and here's a newsflash, the country isn't doing fine. Have you had your head up your ass since 05? Hell,since 9/11/01?
the wealth have nothing to do with the terrorist attacks...
Actually, we have been going downhill financially since 9/11 and the wars. Jesus,pay attention to your surroundings.
really bc everyone was loving the economy til 07. Jesus,pay attention to your surroundings.
Not really. We had to bail out the airline industry and then there was all of the fall out from enron and then unemployment was starting to skyrocket. You really don't seem to know what you are talking about and yet,you want the people that actually give a damn to leave the country. Perhaps you should refrain from any future debates.
really our economy was failing in 05? the unemployment level was only around 5% vs. the 5.6% it was in 95. so maybe u should research before u just throw out hysteria headlines from the past 10 yrs
Yes it was. Your idiotic claim that it wasn't headed downward is absurd. The markets didn't just magically start plummeting on their own. it was a steady downfall since 9/11. It really has gotten worse and worse since then. In fact, I can destroy your whole absurd notion with one word:BUBBLE!
actually the markets got better artificially and bubbles r a economic cycle. they happen all the time in different industries, this just happened to affect more people than other bubbles have. bubbles r part of the economy, the markets reflect that and they reflect the fact that the economy was not falling in 06
How about disagreeing and correcting possible errors without the insults?
Because trolls don't deserve civility. Especially those that willfully play blind for the sake of being blind. I have no reason to be polite to those who suffer from the normalcy bias.
no, you don't understand. go look at the cost of tuition over the last 30 years and how much it has inflated. far more than health care, far more than the housing bubble, it makes that bubble look like a joke. is the quality of education that much better today than it was back then? no. just as houses cost twice as much as they should, tuition and associated college expenses cost way more than they should. this has nothing to do with working hard, internships or jobs. the pricing system is broken because of the way it works. go read about how student loans actually work - the government guarantees them and keeps increasing the amount. it's kind of like a stupid bank making loans it shouldn't but then gets constantly bailed out. the system needs reform.
really education is no better? we haven't learned anything new to teach? no knew science discoveries or math equations? u must be at a really bad school, sorry u wasted ur money. and the loans guaranteed so i u default u dont have to pay, the banks never defaulted, they borrowed from the government like everyone else and paid it back with interest!!! unlike the car companies...go protest them
it's not better with the cost. geez this is not that hard. look houses have gone up in quality since 30 years ago. but if you look at the net result of home prices, they have tracked inflation. now look at education. yes it's improved over 30 years. yes you learn new and better stuff. but it has gone up WAY WAY more than inflation. just like 5 years ago homes were totally mispriced, and we are at the correct level of home prices today, the same thing has gone on in education. get it???
and clearly population. way to inflated with u people
except every single other industry has adapted to the same thing, with no outrageous increase in price. this point is simple yet you don't appear to get it. i can explain it to you, i can't understand it for you.
All the want is more stuff, greedy in my book.
i dont want more, i just dont get why handouts are good. and why u dont realize all ur going to do if ur successful is chase all the wealthy to other countries. most of what they do now is electronic anyway so they can do it from anywhere. they want to stay and pay taxes but if u go crazy they will leave
You got it
This guy knows what he's talking about.