Forum Post: Burger guy vs the Computer guy, who is more important to society?
Posted 12 years ago on May 10, 2012, 7:51 p.m. EST by junglemonkeez
(208)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I say exactly Equal.
Well since anyone in society can make and flip their own burgers I would say the computer guy is more important to society. Unless the burger guy has some other skill that society really needs.
Unless you don't think computers, medical equipment, mobile phones and social media are important.
I would not go to the burger guy if I needed surgery, an eye exam, my plumbing fixed, or a check up for my dog.
It is not only the skill it is also the willingness.
Willingness skill and intent.
I " intend " to use my willingness and skill to the betterment of all.
What does intention and willingness have to do with the question?
I intend to use my willingness and skill to flip burgers? How is that as important to society as programming a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) computer.
Equal in what way?? They both have equal value as a human life.
So if Burger Guy is a part timer and has no insurance coverage, and he's bleeding to death because he accidently got sliced by his metal spatula, he will be treated in the emergency room - where some highly paid doctors will save his life.
That doesn't mean Burger Guy should necessarily have all of the same creature comforts as Computer Guy. Unless Burger Guys become extremely scarce and Burger Guy wages go up.
The value of a life is not measured in wages, dollars or cents. That's just completely dumb.
It's ok for some people to have more money. So long as there are policies and the system is working so that the majority of people have enough. And that wealth inequality does not become extreme as to lead to political inequality.
It is never ok for some people to have more when some people have to go without. Your not seeing the world. Maybe its true that no american goes hungry, but are you sure that is true for the rest of the f-ing planet.
What does the phrase, charity starts at home, mean to you?
To me it means reduce, reuse, recycle, but then I don't have a home (at least not in a conventional sence.) What does it mean to you?
In context it means that you have to take care of the people around you before you can deal with someone else. Basically, you help your family before you help your neighbor, then your neighbor before the neighborhood, then the neighborhood before the city, so on and so forth. Which to me says that you have to help everyone in the country before you can help the people in other countries because if you think that every person in the United States is fed then your information is incorrect.
For the most part I think that is a just Philosophy, but practically speaking It doesn't seem to be working. As far as food is concerned, anyone who wants to eat in America, can. I have seen no reason to believe otherwise. And even if you can find an example, then it would disprove your own philosophy.
Walk through detroit and tell me everyone there eats on a regular basis. And I only brought it up because you said there was no reason that people in other countries should be going hungry. The only reason I brought it up is that we don't take care of the people at home first which is why it isn't working.
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Luv U 2.
Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
I think some people can have more but everyone can have enough if we run the system right. Something like what FDR or JFK were doing. They wanted to raise the whole world to middle class from within the capitalist system.
But they were using traditional American capitalism, while today, we practice British free trade, which incorporates poverty as part of its economic strategy.
Well, the alternative is everyone has not enough- equally. And if you think that's a better system, think it through. And get over your utopian fantasies.
Call me selfish if you want to. I call it realistic.
Do you really believe there isn't enough?
At this very moment? It's highly theoretical. And subjective. How do you define enough? And is everyone going to agree what enough means? Enough for how long?
I can almost for sure tell you - whatever my portion is, I'm not going to be happy and I don't think it's enough. But let's say I'm super sweet and nice, and I recognize the guy next to me has more than he had before. So that's nice for him and it makes me feel a little better. I'm still not entirely happy.
But I'll play along anyway. How about yes, there's probably enough (whatever that means). If the system stopped, and the gross wealth were divied up equally, each of us would probably have enough. For however long it lasts. That's because capitalism produces alot of wealth.
But if we changed the system to some kind of communal egalitarian model, then eventually the result would be everyone not having enough - equally.
Thank you April, for at least giving the idea a look from both sides, my personal take is more opptimistic thats all. I Think there is enough and by a large margin. As a designer, I am inclined to believe that with a good plan and enough support, creating a society based on some other cause then money collection, is not fantasy, but possibility.
I'm sorry April, you didn't deseve that!
T'is ok. : )
The whole point of this Post and thread is not really about who is worth more in wages or contribution - the true heart is the fact that burger flipper deserves a living wage at the very least for doing the job. Burger flipper is needed to run the business - burger flipper needs a living wage in return for his/her time.
I'm all for economic policies that will establish a foundation where the vast majority of people have lots of opportunities available to them. To make the best wage that they can, lots of opportunities for good living wages. So they can take care of themselves and make the most of what they have to offer.
I don't know that Burger Flipping will ever be a living wage. Let's face it. Hardly anyone should settle for Burger Flipper as a life vocation. If you've become a competent Burger Flipper, you need to push yourself to the next level. And let Bathroom Scrubber Guy have a shot at Burger Flipping. Make room for the next person to have a shot at your spot. Everyone needs to push themselves as far as their talent and intellect will take them. The government's role is to set the foundational policies to allow this process to thrive.
I agree - burger flipper is not an achievement. But it is a job necessary for a business to operate. A living wage should be entry level wage in any business - as the job being done is necessary - so the individual doing the job is necessary - that newbie gains experience and moves on to something more in the business or goes to another business advancing along the way - or not - as circumstances may play out or as ambition or need may drive. But in the meantime all of those basic entry level jobs - that are still necessary to run a business will pay a living wage. Some one ( quite a few some ones ) will always be doing the basic labor that is still the life's blood of any business.
Society doesn't hire people. So, if you have a job for a burger guy you would hire the computer guy and we would go buy burgers from another store which has burgers produced by burger guys.
If you want greasy spreadsheets hire the burger guy to write your programs,
You put an ad in the paper for a worker with a certain skill set at a certain wage. If nobody shows up? What do you do? If you advertized for a computer guy and the only person that shows up is a burger guy, what do you do? Maybe I have an advantage. I have started and operated several businesses. And I have worked for many more. The real world has figured out what works. This isn't why banks fail or why corruption occurs.
You're right, it was a dumb question.
Society actually does hire people, in this case, The United States is the society and they are the single largest employeer on this planet. 2 million enlisted men eat, sleep, drink, and retire on societies dime, The US postal service employees and retires that many as well, what about social security a lot of people recieve their living that way, what about welfare more and more are figuring out how to survive on that.
I don't know who's kidding themselves, I'm simply suggesting this is the way things ARE going, that we should embrase it and make IT better.
Let me put it another way., people are hired individually for specific jobs that have a set of defined tasks and that humans are not interchangeable a a mass produced machine. Society doesn't exist as an entity that makes hiring decisions regarding individual hiring/employment transactions..
The reality is that the society that calls itself America makes decisions about hiring every day, a lot. And "not interchangeable" people change what they do, all the time, for a lot of reasons.
Not true. Societies don't kill people, people do.
Society sanctions military use for purpose of "killing people." The soldiers are just doing what they are told. Who are you talking about? And how did we go from society giving people jobs to people killing people?
Society doesn't exist outside of statistical concepts. People decide, people act people, enjoy/suffer consequences. Soldiers decide to kill or not to kill. Sometimes they believe their circumstances justify an act, sometimes they change their minds, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they suffer consequences, but the decisions are always theirs, individually. Society doesn't give jobs to people. You seem to believe in a collective consciousness. It doesn't exist. Some of the people;s decisions disagree with others. People get paid specific amounts, societies don't decide what each individual gets paid. People in societies observe multiple individual actions, organize statistics about them and make some judgements about the data as observers, not as an actor deciding to take an action as a result of the observation. Tails don't wag dogs.
No, of course not, but you will agree that the dogs body is just as important as its head. The one depends upon the other. That is the understanding of collective conscience.
Statistics is not flesh and blood. You can extend it too far and I suspect that you have done so. I will keep an eye on your posts for examples.
FAIL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops
FAIL.
"embrace"
FAIL.
Computer guy is more important to society. PERIOD.
It doesn't matter. How much are person's skills valued to the person paying them?
No, I suppose it doesn't matter, does it. That seems sad to me!
Are you willing to pay a person more merely because of their skill set?
I'm saying Pay is an antiquated system, a man should have a job simply because he was born and it should be of your own choosing, if only from the list of available jobs and only if you can't think of something better. Life is too short for living by anothers rules. Especially when they are Hypocratic.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-myth-of-hard-work/#comment-730911 also Future by Design is a good film for the better examples
isn't that how it works now? People get to pick jobs of their own choosing, and it is from the bank of available jobs. That is, unless he/she creates a job (business) for himself/herself.
Yes but he wants the guy who sits in the shade painting daisies all day to earn as much as the guy who generates millions of dollars in sales, just because it's not "fair" for one person to be paid more than another.
I see this entire page as an example of why children shouldn't be coddled and protected from reality. This junglemonkeez guy thinks that the world should be fair, but the world is not a fair place. His upbringing apparently betrayed him at some point and he's struggling to deal with the conflict between how things were in kindergarten and how things are in the real world.
I read some of his other response. He seems a little scattered. Polite...but scattered.
The job CAN be of his own choosing. If the market doesn't want the product or service that he produces, then he starves or changes to another job where there's a demand for his product or service.
It's still his CHOICE what he wants to do: produce something people want, or starve.
You're seriously comparing a person who creates jobs to a person who prepares food?
There are a lot of sad examples of desperate envy on this web site. One of the most common manifestations of that envy is the fantasy of an engineered economy where everybody earns the same amount of money. That fantasy has many variants, from the 'hour token' to the guaranteed basic living wage for all, to the resource-based economy, to the elimination of money under communism. All of those proposals seem to be coming from people who aren't successful in reality, so they fantasize about a world where they earn as much as the people who they see all around them who have been far more successful at earning higher incomes.
No offense, sir, but Yes. This experiment goes the the core of Equality.
You never did answer my question: should an EMT be paid the same as a paramedic? Even though the paramedic has years more training and more responsibility?
I thought i was clear, No Man Is Better Then Me, thats not Ego, thats Equality
"No man is better than me", isn't an answer to that question. I have no idea how much you get paid. Maybe you make more than a paramedic.
You're still going against the universe. The simple fact is that the universe is not fair. You fantasize about a world where everybody is guaranteed fairness, but that isn't the world that we live in. You fantasize about an economy where the wealth is distributed exactly equally among every person who has a pulse. You're not alone, there are a LOT of other people on this web site with the same fantasy. But that isn't possible. You're wasting your time chasing a pipe dream. In the real world, investing in learning new skills, accepting more responsibility, taking risks, working more effectively, and sometimes just being lucky can all set you up to earn more money. That's the world that we live in.
I've been saying all along, these are just my ideas that I think would help. I know how reality is as it exists, don't need your help with that. I'm just here to demonstrate that the so called truth in the Declaration about Equality is The Fallacy. Thx guys!
I think your flaw is that you are equating human worth to value to society. Those things aren't the same. Just because I think the computer guy is more valuable to society, does not mean I think the burger guy is less valuable as a human being. There are a lot of people who do more for society as a whole than I do - and I am very appreciative of them - but I don't feel like less of a man in their presence.
Just because you don't think the burger guy has the same value as the computer guy, doen't mean everyone thinks that, so I did an experiment to find out, not super scientific, but I think it made the point or maybe it didn't, you all can decide for yourselves and be so kind as to let me do the same.
It seems as though you are confusing a person's worth with the worth of the occupation they choose (or get stuck with). Life doesn't offer equal outcomes for all. It may not be fair, but that's the reality of it.
It "Doesn't offer equal outcomes," or you won't let it. Equality that The Declaration of Independence talks about is Man made or at least they should be, it says man is allowed certain rights, Life, Liberty and a pursuit of Happiness given him by the Creator, not some government. No man has the right to tell another man what he can and can't do or they have the right to Redeclare their Independence.
Life and liberty can easily be given, and you are free to chase happiness enough to actually catch it occasionally. There isn't anything we can do to make people themselves equal however, we are all different with different strengths and weaknesses. Life itself doesn't treat us with equality, our physical and mental abilities differ. One man gets cancer at 25 another dies quietly at 93. Outcomes will vary for no just reason, life itself isn't fair.
Additionally you have the basic premiss backwards with regard to employment. It isn't that anyone values one individual employee over the other. It's the consumer, who also has rights also, not the employee that sets the standard.
The employee essentially serves the consumer (pursuing his own happiness through mindless consumption sometimes). What that individual consumer is willing to pay for the product of those labors that determines what the job is worth. Circumstance, ability, education influence the choices potential employees have as to which jobs he or she is able to take.
You can't legislate equality there, you can only attempt to fix prices and costs. The individual construction workers may work harder then the engineer that designed the structure, but I value the engineer's expertise more. I value my doctor's opinion more then his receptionist's. People may all be created equal, but no legislation is going to make jobs equal in the minds of the majority of people.
"No man has the right to tell another man what he can and can't do"
Isn't the core goal of OWS to tell the whole world what they can and cannot do? To get the whole world to do what OWS wants them to do?
No.
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Then your research question is what is flawed. If you want to gage what people think about human worth, then try posting "Who is better, a hamburger guy or a computer guy" and see what kind of response you get.
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Well, lets put it this way....you cannot eat a computer!! Nor will it keep you warm at night, nor will it sustain you if there is nothing but good ole mother earth around!
Besides, if the grid, or I should say. when the grid goes down, please...somebody, anybody.... give me food....any day! I loves to eat!!!
I doubt seriously people worry about their computers after the tornadoes, earthquakes, landslides, fires, hurricanes, tsunami's, etc. have hit and destroyed their homes and lives, and families.
So, how did man exist before computers...and how will he exist afterward? Do you all believe these make believe villages will last forever?
This is too funny!!!
I'll back a person who can produce food any day, any time, any way I can!
He's not talking about a person who can produce food, he's talking about a burger flipper who prepares food. He thinks that the kid flipping burgers should be paid the same as the guy who starts a tech company that ends up employing thousands of people. Because they both work just as hard. They don't both work as effectively, but he doesn't think that should matter. He thinks that if your job is to dig holes in the ground then you should get paid as much as a doctor. Because everybody should be equal, and paying people differently isn't "fair".
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-myth-of-hard-work/#comment-730911
Well, on that note.....I still say I'll follow the people who have, flip or whatever way they cook, obtain and serve food!
Look folks, reality bites....If this ripple effect continues....aka JPMorgan...Euro collapse, there is no way in hell anyone is gonna have time to worry about who is a damn techie, because all will be lining up to eat...pure and simple...and that my friends would mean that NOBODY is getting PAID!!!! Why are you all in a fog and acting unaware of the shyt that is hitting the fan and blowing all over the damn place? Do you really know what is going on out there in La La "financial" land? You can believe the media hype about how great things are getting, but reality is and has been settling in for a long time now fellas!! Remember, those who forget the past are destined to re-live it. Find and put in your reservations for your nearest soup kitchens my friends!!!
If civilization were to collapse then there wouldn't be any factory-made ground beef patties to flip on electric griddles either.
Who said civilization is going to collapse...maybe just yours...ya think?? Besides....ever hear of farms....have you any clue on how to grow your own food? Stop acting with such fake technological savvy and learn the laws of universal survival, not the fittest!!! None will be able to make that journey of understanding except those who can face reality!!! The majority of you are still slaves to wall street and big corporate businesses and leaders who don't give a damn about any of you!! So, rely on them if you must, but I doubt they will feed you when the shyt hits the grid!!!
1 points B.G. 0 points C.G.
Thx. for playing!
Anytime!
definately the computer guy, i can make my own dam burgers, but i need the computer guy to write my xbox 360 games so I can play them, ha ha ha
Its not one or the other, balck and white. The question is does not society require both. I suspect that if all the hamburger folks went on strike, the computer guys would get pretty hungry. And if all the computer guys went on strike all the Hamburger guys would have to play Call of Duty again for the millionth time. Actually nobody gets hungry when the computer guys go on strike, at least not till all the cash registers go on the fritz. I wonder who has more social power. Just sayin!
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Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
And as for censoring your trollish comments? I wish the forum would not as that removes other contributors good material. I would like to see them collapse your comment instead.
You can ship a computer guys job to India in a heartbeat, but you can't get a burger from there. You can also invite them camping, the programmer will be useless, but the burger guy will know some basic principles about food safety and might save your life. The programmer can write a fascinating line of code buried with million of other lines feeling utterly important. The burger guy will flip one of millions of burgers and he should feel just as important.
I agree, who doesn't like a burger and a movie, pizza and video games, or using some app to find the nearest drive through. They are complimentory. But some people have this NEED to feel superior. It's the story of the lamb laying down with the lion, unless ofcourse we are people who have REASON with witch to guide our emotions.
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Luv U 2.
Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
And as for censoring your trollish comments? I wish the forum would not as that removes other contributors good material. I would like to see them collapse your comment instead.
Depends on how good the burger is...
I would say they have both have equal "potential" as far as making a contribution is concerned. The burger flipper, for example, could open his own hamburger stand, become the next McDonalds, and make significant contributions to society with his multi-million dollar a year income, and by employing many people at the entry level.
all depends they can never be equal because both have skills that are unique to them and their value is decided on those who want something done
Does anyone posting here understand what Generalizing is?
I see a four word answer to a question that's so general we could tell the story of the Universe and still not answer it. This is the premise of this entire thread. (There's no real introduction to the particular topic of discussion, or maybe it's me, and I'm the only one missing some clear concise point here. )
:D
Does anyone see the problem here?
(I've got plenty enough of everything so I'm lucky just loving this Universe where I now find myself. Enough is enough and I have found it.)
Better yet, don't answer those questions, think of something intelligent and useful, and post something about that. Just not here. No offense intended, but just let this die it's quick death as it drops away and fades to black.
Happy Posting Posters :D
The Puzzler
I see it thus. All boiled down - it is apparent that some people have a problem with the idea of a minimum living wage being paid to the most menial or basic of jobs. Irregardless of the need for that job to be done for the health and normal day to day operation of any business. This I would place to selfishness or incomprehension.
The job is needed or it would not be. Period.
If the job is needed it needs to pay a living wage. Period.
Your the best DK, thanks for your excellent clarification.
With that said, I couldn't agree more. We need the minimum wage and it has to be adjusted as needed to keep up with inflation. Going back to why there is a minimum wage in the first place, it's exactly what a country as wealthy as ours show do. It's not only compassionate, it's proven to work in lifting the wage floor so people can work and survive because they DO work. Many people who work for minimum wage DO jobs that require manual labor. These jobs aren't easy and it s hard work.
The GOP has always resisted raising the minimum wage as long as I can remember. They always fight it and cry that we should let the free market dictate to us and abolish it. They sorely want Pure Capitalism where we DO worship money as the greatest good and screw everything, everybody, and the environment as long as the rich get ALL THE MONEY.
The GOP hankers for the days when the Corporations did run this country, the days of the Robber Barons. There was no minimum wage, workers rights, and the boss was a real life Slave Driver. Yeah, them was the good ole days.
That damned past just keeps wanting to repeat itself as it finds more adherents from those too ignorant to know better.
Puzzlin
Thank you so much for the compliment.
Economic Health and Prosperity starts at the bottom - the wide part of the pyramid. This should be obvious to all. Glad to have another sane person in the battle Puzzlin.
I've been at it for a long time. And it is a long hard fight, but I never give up. It's part of my life not some moment or time, it's all the time. We always get each others back (without even saying) I just wish their was more of us. Personally, I know I've made a difference and for that I move forward. I always try to leave people with something to think about and if it spurs them to dig deeper finding inspiration to find real truths about this world then I succeeded greatly. My greatest inspiration is the search for evident truth. Ever since starting the journey for truth, it has never left me down, it only inspires me to move further into it. It fulfills my purpose in finding what I came here for. Everything flows from it, especially love.
Good Luck DK!
Puzzlin
So very well said. The journey for truth and enlightenment begins - and it never ends - sharing findings is so considerate and helpful to others just starting out - I applaud your perspective.
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People at the bottom of the pyramid are not the ones driving economic expansion, so that's not obvious to me.
Apparently you need to reexamine your world view.
Tell me why. The people at the bottom of the pyramid are not the ones generating a lot of revenue. So why would economic health start with them?
The people at the bottom "ARE" generating the revenue because they are making the product - those at the top profit from this labor of the 90% base line worker. They just do not recognize it in fair pay for their workers.
At the bottom of the pyramid are unskilled burger flippers and floor moppers who are interchangeable and who don't directly generate revenue, nor do they have the ability to create growth for the company. If we're talking about the health of the economy, then we're talking about people who can grow companies and expand the economy. A burger flipper can't do that. No matter how well he does his job, he's not going to take the company into new territory.
Fine - no burger flippers for you. Now run your burger flipping business. Remember no burger flippers.
Actually one of the hottest startups right now is The Melt, from the entrepreneur who created the Flip camera. The Melt uses an automated machine to create grilled cheese sandwiches in one step, so that no actual sandwich-grilling is required. This is a trend that will continue, and that will accelerate if the cost of unskilled workers rises.
How much for the machine? How much annually to maintain? Does it feed and unload itself? Do you still need someone to monitor and handle any of the process for it to function? Still need a cashier?
Correct, the machines at The Melt are designed to be operated by the cashier instead of by burger flippers, which effectively eliminates half of the jobs in the restaurant. You just insert bread and cheese and it makes the sandwich while you ring up the order. It's not difficult to imagine a totally automated vending machine that handles the whole process without any human involvement. A living wage for unskilled workers will motivate companies to develop that sort of technology. And I have no idea how much the machines cost to maintain but obviously they cost less over time than workers who would make $13/hr.
Again - is it cost effective? Will these fully automated vending shops be popular? Or will the product be crap? I don't know about you - but SA or Holiday gas station store sandwiches kind of suck - same shit you get out of a vending machine now. Now imagine all of the fast food shops being set-up this way as well. Well there should be a drop in fast/junk food customers - so that is not such a bad thing.
It would be a bad thing for unskilled, entry-level workers in the fast food industry.
Sounds like Quiznoes subs. Automation will happen regardless of minimum living wage. Thing is the machine still needs to be tended. The out put of these machines is rather slow at the moment as well - makes for a beautiful rush hour traffic scenario. So many satisfied customers waiting on line.
The machines do need to be tended, but if paying he unskilled machine tenders becomes expensive enough, then companies will be motivated to invest in fully automated vending machines that eliminate the rest of the unskilled jobs. Amazon is working hard on research into automated picking and packing machines. You've seen the robots that build cars. It's not so hard to imagine.
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I don't think that the original poster was commenting on the living wage.
And a lot of people think that they can force business owners to take care of people by forcing them to pay at certain levels. But the business owners still have a say, because you can't force a business to hire people. The more expensive entry-level labor becomes, the more businesses will be incentivized to eliminate those entry-level positions through outsourcing and automation. Burgers can be flipped by machines. Floors can be mopped by machines. Receptionist jobs can be outsourcd to India.
Outsourcing? Do companies do such things (?) - like hire people to work in foreign sweat shops? Like say Apple?
Let em do that then smack em in the head with tariffs when they try to bring in their sweatshop produced goods.
This is a world wide problem not just a domestic one. The world has become a very small place. What goes on - say - in China - does not just affect the Chinese - as say - what goes on in WallStreet does not just affect NY - actions around the world affect around the world.
We need to pick a point to begin cleaning up the house. Any action will need follow-up actions to support the clean-up. The job is big the mess is vast - but it only gets worse the longer it is put off.
The jobs themselves will be eliminated if paying workers becomes too expensive. The more expensive jobs become, the more motivation companies like Amazon will have to nest in automation technologies that eliminate jobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KRjuuEVEZs
Amazon is also investing a lot right now in new automation technologies to eliminate human pickets and packers. And why pay a guy a living wage to mop a floor when it's a lot cheaper over the long term to buy a Roomba robot to do it? If you mandate a universal living wage then I guarantee that you'll start to see all kinds of new robots that can do things like flip burgers.
What eliminate the jobs and remain in country? That is a formula for failure. They cant eliminate the base line jobs - that is where the work is done. 90% of any company is base line workers.
Did you watch the video? Those robots eliminated a lot of jobs already. Technologies that enable computers to have conversations with people, like Siri and IBM's Watson, will eliminate more jobs. And companies will be even more motivated to invest in new technologies that eliminate those "base line workers" if the cost of American labor rises even further.
What ROBOT'S???? Really???
Automation of processes has been going on for a very long time. Yes automation has been eliminating jobs for decades. This is not new. It also has nothing to do with paying a living wage to the lowest paid employee - anywhere.
Automation and it's elimination of jobs is another issue that needs to be looked at. Because if you are eliminating the need for a work force - what are the unemployed supposed to do to be employed.
Is it at this point in time when society will be self supporting through taxation of the wealthy and the businesses and the People will be free to pursue other things like further and free education? Or take up more fully in the Arts? Travel and see the world? Sit in on policy making and drive forward public and world projects?
So MUCH to be considered.
Yes, that's my point. A living wage mandate for unskilled, entry-level workers will encourage more automation so that those jobs can be eliminated. You don't have to pay a robot a living wage.
Those jobs are being eliminated by automation anyway. A living wage would have negligible effect on that overall trend. As to outsourcing, that has already been happening, too. Should American workers agree to the elimination of the minimum wage, overtime and safety regulations, child labor laws, and the rest in order to compete downward with five dollar a day workers overseas? Or should a domestic living wage be guaranteed and tariffs imposed to make products whose manufacture has been outsourced as expensive as those made domestically?
There are alternatives to people working full time and remaining in poverty. Other nations have largely solved that problem. Many have minimum wages that are effectively living wages. Those countries value their people above those people's skill sets. So, yes, a neurosurgeon should be paid more than a conveyor belt worker, but that conveyor belt worker should not have to be hungry while doing his job. He has worth, too, the worth of a human being.
Thank you a well thought out and presented rejoinder. A voice of reason. A statement of reality. Thank you - again.
I'm just pointing out that if you raise the price of unskilled labor then you'll reduce the demand for unskilled labor. If the people who you're trying to help out are the unskilled workers then I don't see how incentivizing the elimination of their jobs is going to help them.
Historically, that assertion has proved untrue. There has never been any major contraction of labor at any time the minimum wage has been increased, which effects the unskilled labor force more than any other. Nor has it had deleterious effects in countries that maintain a living wage standard for their workers. Your assertion is unfounded, based on speculation.
David Neumark and William Wascher studied decades of research on the conomic effects of minimum wage legislation. Their conclusions:
Recent studies show this is not true.
http://www.frbatlanta.org/filelegacydocs/ACFA7.pdf
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/lwlm99/turner.htm
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/research/minimumwage.html
http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/workingpapers/157-07.pdf
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/16/would-cutting-the-minimum-wage-raise-employment/
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=5650
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5632.html
The point is every job that needs doing needs no less then a minimum living wage.
This as an employment requirement across the board will not change business labor needs. This rectify s business labor abuse.
They can not just snap their fingers and automate or eliminate those positions. If they are going to automate that is what they will do and will have plans in place for - all they then need do is spend the money to make it happen.
Will automating some of these basic jobs be possible?
Will automating some of these basic jobs be cost effective?
Lets push the issue and find out. Get a living wage for the lowest paid individual anywhere - make it law and see what happens. Things can not get much worse for those on the bottom - unemployment and public assistance could be a step up for many. How sad is that!!!!!!!
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Right, you can't just snap your fingers and eliminate jobs with automation. It requires an investment in technology. And more expensive unskilled labor will make that investment more attractive. That's good for engineers like myself. It's not so good for unskilled workers. And I still can't see how it's good for society to encourage unskilled workers to stay unskilled.
That's quite a leap you're making. A living wage does not "encourage" unskilled workers to remain unskilled. It simply allows them to stay out of poverty. Simply remaining out of poverty is not a disincentive to wanting more, and working to get it, given the opportunity to do so.
What's more, once again, other countries have living wage standards and don't exhibit the problems you are speculating about. That evidence trumps your speculation. As an engineer, I would have thought you valued evidence over mere hypothesis.
Why encourage low wage earners to stay at low wage jobs? Supply and demand. If too many move up to mid wage jobs, low wage jobs will become mid wage jobs because of decreased labor supply.
Mid and high skilled jobs in general do not produce, they make it possible for the low skilled to be more productive. The greater the ratio between high skilled and low skilled workers, the greater the differential in wages.
You're imagining a factory full of unskilled drones cranking out widgets, with managers watching over them who don't produce anything. In reality, our economy is shifting toward the creation of value by high-skill workers. Web developers and audio engineers and graphic designers. Not people who screw the caps onto tubes of toothpaste. Our economy desperately needs more high-skill workers, not more low skilled burger flippers and floor moppers.
The same motivations as right now and the same as it has been forever to make your lot in life better. To have something more than a mindless repetition of duty. Nothing will have changed except that it will be easier to move on from a dead end job then it is now.
Who says they should stay unskilled? People enter the work place right now as newbies they pick up work experience and training on the job as to skills required by that business and they progress - those that can learn and adapt. This has always been the case.
If you can earn a living wage by flipping bugers then what's the motivation to learn new skills?
Whats a living wage? Please be specific, in numbers. I will tell you, I would strongly object to a variable living wage. If someone chooses to live in NYC, his LW should be no more than someone in Wall, South Dakota.
OMG - what a lazy fuck you are. Here then - at this point in time - if you were to go anywhere in the USA. 36,000 per year would be a good minimum living wage on 40 hour week. This would allow the reformation of the family unit as well.
So now you have a number that you can attack in your lazy manner. Do you want us to wait while you go find someone to present you with follow-up arguments?
[-] 0 points by Pequod (21) 7 minutes ago
For fucks sake, why cant you people EVER actually quantify a living wage? Give me the number in dollar form, like $15/hour? $6000/hour? Why do you guys always waffle?
No wonder this movement is going backwards. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
I am not interested in attackng it. So $18 hour should be minimum wage?
The one major issue I see would be how could a small business get started if te MW was $18 an hour? I think most large corps could handle that but start ups might struggle. Also what would prevent more offshore outsourcing/ automating? Tariffs always have unintended consequences.
community ownership
What does it cost for a single person to live in a state. Take the highest cost of living for the state - food rent insurance transportation etc.
Then like economist used to teach multiply those costs by four and you have a living wage - as nothing is static and emergency's do happen. You should never have more than a quarter of your income locked into debt/bills ( monthly basis ) this provides the ability to set money aside for savings and to also make some fairly major purchases by the expedient of cash and carry. This policy insures a built in personal safety net.
So take that basic yearly amount dived it by 40hr work weeks and you have a minimum weekly salary - divide the work week total hours into the minimum work week pay/salary amount and you have your hourly minimum living wage.
For fucks sake, why cant you people EVER actually quantify a living wage? Give me the number in dollar form, like $15/hour? $6000/hour? Why do you guys always waffle?
No wonder this movement is going backwards.
No you just need to layout millions of dollars to buy install and maintain them. How much to fully automate and maintain a burger flipper operation?
How much will you pay your advanced degree multi-skilled maintenance worker?
Will all repairs be bought off of the shelf components? You know - plug and play? Or will you want to have a small machine shop on hand for some of the maintenance work. Robot machine shop? Robot maintenance worker?
I would ask you to support your 90% stat, but "base line workers" has no generally accepted meaning or measurement so that makes it irrelevant.
Seven Ways Apple Is Fleecing The American Sheeple:
http://occupynewhampshire.org/2012/05/06/seven-ways-apple-is-fleecing-the-american-sheeple/
As a web engineer, I object to number 6. But the part about sending jobs overseas is exactly what I'm talking about. More and more jobs will be moved overseas if labor in the US becomes even more expensive. And how many call center jobs will eventually be eliminated over the long run, not outsourced but eliminated, by technologies like Siri and IBM's Watson?
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rhetorical question, not sure I see a final point yet. I do understand brithonsage's point me being a small business myself also. The real world figures out what works. Like hiring mexicans and operating under the table to compete with governmetn over regulation and over taxation is a start in my professional opinion.
Yes and government which provides millions of jobs, loses revenue and collapses, by the way mexicans that live next to you and work with you, ARE AMERICANS, there is more reality for ya!
It is not the governments role to provide jobs at least in the US.
Who is the Government? If Government is We The People, than why isn't it. Don't people want people working? Something to think about.
You: But thats not the way it is.
Me: I know.
Three million workers are about to get a raise when the minimum wage goes up. In Malaysia.
Malaysia's leaders want to turn their country into a "high-income nation." And they recognize that one of the best ways to do that is to raise the wage floor.[1]
Malaysia isn't the only place where political leaders are looking out for working people. Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver has introduced a bill that would raise New York's minimum wage -- and tie the rate to inflation so that our state's low-wage workers aren't left behind in future years.
Speaker Silver has introduced a bill in the Assembly, but Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos is blocking progress. We cannot afford to delay while so many New Yorkers suffer.
Sign the petition to tell Senator Skelos that "New York Needs a Raise."
http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=heGei6EKN9yB/63zBi0A/vt5DWUY8Cca
Malaysia's new rate doesn't seem too impressive in itself -- just $297 a month. But it is the first private sector minimum wage in that country's history, and officials plan to raise it further in coming years.
The United States used to understand that all labor has dignity and all people deserve a living wage. Somehow that's been lost. But we can get it back.
A minimum wage of $8.50 an hour, indexed to inflation, is on the table in Albany. No one is getting rich at that wage, but lives will improve. If it means that McDonald's has to charge an extra nickel for a Big Mac, that's okay.
Luckily, about three quarters of New Yorkers support the raise. Support extends across all parties -- 83% of Democrats, 65% of independents, and even 59% of Skelos's fellow Republicans are in favor of raising the wage (not to mention just about 100% of WFP voters).[2]
The momentum is on our side. It's time to make the U.S. a high-income nation again.
Tell Senator Skelos that New York needs a raise.
http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=X4MpoJFKmMj%2B3kDj1/l%2Bx/t5DWUY8Cca
http://action.workingfamiliesparty.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=5981
Thanks,
-Dan Cantor, WFP
Sources:
The average wage of the US is three times that of Malaysia in International dollars.
So?
I thought you were implying we lost our understanding and needed to learn from Malaysia.
America has lost it's way. Greed corruption and white collar crime are in control at the moment.
I posted the Malaysian article as they are on the right track in one respect - at least - promoting a living wage for the majority of the population that does not or has not had one. Thereby stimulating the economy with many people spending money - even if immediately that spending is on living necessities for awhile before expanding out to quality of life expenditures.
I don't recall Malaysia crashing the world economy, that seems to be a uniquely American accomplishment due to its unique understanding of vulture capitalism.
They couldn't if they wanted to. The state of Colorado has a larger GDP than Malaysia.
Another status 'my cock is bigger than their cock' pitch. I would expect no less of you. You are not one given to understanding any point other than your own.
You are the one who said "I don't recall Malaysia crashing the world economy"
I was just pointing out that they are not big enough to crash the world economy.
It has nothing to do with the size of your penis.
America bigger than Malaysia, America smarter than Malaysia, America perfect, never wrong. Can learn nothing from anyone else. Got ya.
I never said that. Why do you insist on misrepresenting and lying about what I said? I am beginning to see what you are about. Twisting words, and what the hell, making up your own words that nobody said, to fit your agenda.
Malaysia not big enough to crash the world economy. That is just a fact. There is no pride or ego involved.
your words to DKA, "I thought you were implying we lost our understanding and needed to learn from Malaysia."
I didn't put anything in your mouth. If you can't see the ego in that statement, you are suffering delusions.
I never said "America smarter than Malaysia, America perfect, never wrong. Can learn nothing from anyone else." Those are your words not mine.
That said, I sincerely do hope we do not learn to be more like Malaysia. It has nothing to do with ego it has to do with reality.
DKA began the comparison of Malaysia to the US not me, I was implying that we should follow Malaysia as an example of something to emulate. Malaysia is no roll model for anyone.
Human rights violations continue to occur almost on a daily basis in Malaysia. People are executed for using drugs. Homosexuality is a crime punishable with imprisonment and beatings.
This Week: The government tightened control of dissent and curtailed the right to freedom of expression and religion. Bloggers were arrested under the Sedition Act, and the Printing Press and Publications Act (PPPA) was used to control newspaper content. Ten people were arbitrarily arrested and detained under the Internal Security Act (ISA). Security forces continued to use excessive force while the establishment of an independent police complaints misconduct commission was postponed. Immigration personnel and volunteers conducted mass arrests of migrant workers. At least 22 people were sentenced to death. The number executed was unknown.
The ISA permits indefinite detention without charge or trial of any person that officials deem a threat to national security or public order.
Malaysia is on the top of many lists for human rights violations including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (HRW)
I am not suffering from delusions, I just prefer freedom and liberty over tyranny and oppression.
Yes, DKA made a comparison of another country to America. And rather than addressing the point he brought up about living wages. You immediately kick into patriotic mode and say America better, brighter, no learn from any stinking Malaysians.
Malaysia has flaws. But so the f**k does America.
ISA permits indefinite detention. What about NDAA?
We have the highest incarceration rate in the world? Why? Does that mean we have the worst people in the world living here in America?
Am I saying you look at things partially and have an obvious bias? You bet I am.
People see what they want to see. What I see is that if someone does not agree with you 100% they have an "obvious bias" and what they say is "bullshit".
If DKA were to have picked Australia, Norway, New Zealand, Ireland, South Korea, Costa Rica. I would have been fine.
By the way, the US one of the top countries when it comes to wages, benefits, services, worker rights, worker safety, vacation time, sick leave, family leave, holidays...
I see a stereotype - JOETHEFARMER. What happened? Was JOETHEPLUMBER already taken?
Sure...sure...
By the way, The US is the only highly developed country in the world that doesn't have universal health-care coverage.
DKA Picked the wrong country. The wages of America are three times those of Malaysia and working conditions here are 100 times better..
While I have railed against the NDAA on this very board, you cannot compare NDAA to the actions of teh Malaysian government under ISA. You really need to educate yourself on human rights around the globe.
I have no bias against other countries. If I were to compare I would have picked Australia, Norway, New Zealand, Ireland, South Korea, Costa Rica.
Not Malaysia please! We need to be exposing them not praising them.
Please educate yourself on the situation around the world, particularly human rights, freedom of the press, speech, and religion before posting.
I have had a whole life's worth of learning to detect bullshit. I am quite qualified to see through yours. It would not have mattered one bit who DKA picked, you would have went on the same ---- America vulture capitalism is the BEST, no need learn anybody else, don't need no talk of living wages, you bunch of whining losers----....yeah....I see right through your phony attempts at sincerity.
I see a profiler who makes assumptions based on his prejudices.
JoeTheFarmer is my nickname for the volunteer work I do for with http://americasgrowarow.org
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a Communist."~Hélder Câmara
That should be self-explanatory.
Someday I hope you realize that action is better than talk, deeds are more important than words.
I am done with you.
Hit a nerve.
Of course the burger guy, he's helping make more money for business. The computer guy is telling how everything really goes on in the U.S. so he or she is a problem, unless the computer guy is on the elites side that is.
A burger flipper prepares food. He's one step in a chain that starts at a meat factory and ends at a cash register. He's an interchangeable cog in a machine.
A software developer changes the rules. He creates new machines, that create value in new ways. A successful software developer can create entirely new jobs, new companies, and new industries. How is a burger flipper ever going to create new jobs for people?
A software developer changes the rules. Wrong. He follows orders just like any other employee - the product is just a little different.
A software developer = He's an interchangeable cog in a machine.
Though His arrogance blinds him at the moment.
Anybody interested in getting paid more and treated with more respect should maybe learn a little more about the technology boom in progress right now. Software people are not ordered around and for decades they've been writing their own rule books. I'm sure that you've heard about how companies like Google and Apple and Pixar and Microsft pander to software people to keep them happy. The current technology boom has perpetuated that phenomenon. If you can acquire the right skills then you can write your own ticket.
Example: http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/10/dev-boot-camp-is-a-ruby-success/
The reason that this happens is that the product that a software developer creates is fundamentally different from most other workers' output. A software developer's work product can become the core of a whole new company, with massive growth potential. What's the growth potential in a burger?
Junkie - Hey how ya doin? - Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can here me - is there anyone at home?
You old (?) narcissistic fuck, you arrogant asshole. Do you have a mirror strategically placed behind your monitor so you can get emotionally high all day long as you wander along on your private magical mystery tour?
public
Ad hominem.
Ad hominem.
I was referring to your argument as an ad hominem logical fallacy. For you to reply, "ad hominem", doesn't make sense, because I was referring to your argument and not to you as a person. I guess it went over your head. It's fairly common for people on this web site to resort to name-calling out of frustration when they find themselves unable to respond to a post and criticize the merits of the argument that it contains. Apparently it makes people feel better about themselves, but it doesn't further their arguments in any way.
I am impressed Junkie! Do you come up with your stuff during nod time? Then when you come around you post it? Impressive! You must live at your keyboard so that you don't forget the material that you just nodded-up.
I do indeed live at my keyboard. I'm one of those 'computer guys', and we're in such short supply that we not only get paid really well, we also have to work pretty much 24/7. Did you read the article that I posted about Dev Bootcamp? $79k/year average salary is not bad for 10 weeks of training. I hired a guy through this very forum who I've spent the last six months personally training who is now part of that world. Whereas other people prefer to spend their time tossing around insults. Who is more important to scociety, the insult slinger or the new Ruby developer? Guess who gets paid more?
the one with masters able to take money be force
Let's look at one recent software development success story. You may have heard of Instagram. You may have heard that Instagram, a company with only thirteen employees, was recently purchased for one billion dollars. Was that money "taken by force"?
the company was taken by money
I think the term is "bought." But if you like to use the term "taken by money" that works to.
In fact, my lunch today was taken by money. And it was good, too.
This was in jest. Whats most important to big business is it's machine, not anything else, both they can buy anytime easy. btw,
something something face book media hype success. insiders say facebook is nothing new. demand transparency
Damn, now if i could only figure out what you said.
internet social media has been around since the 90s
The Media made a movie about the "inventor" of facebook
when multitudes of other social media networks already existed.
The news reported that face book was big and people not previously on the internet joined.
Facebook is owned by a private company that may chose to censor any statements anytime it wishes
(insiders - those who were already on the internet)
thanx
the computer guy should program her job out of existence
If burger guy and computer guy were brothers and were riding in the car together when it crashed and were badly injured and close to death - would the paramedics arriving on the scene ask who is more important to society? No, they would not; therefore, burger guy and computer guy are equal.
hey dumbass. paramedic treat people irrespective of their occupation.
Funny how life works that way.
it takes 10 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef
Some computer guys do stuff like speculation. Others keep power grids operating. A burger flipper feeds people. Speculation is bad, electricity is good and so is food.
so, are you saying equal?
don't really know for sure, just thinking out loud.
(edit) Certainly every human being is equal in the sense that his / her life has equal value and they have equal right to do what they can do.
Should I say Equal then?
yeah I guess so...
1 points B.G. 1 points C.G. 2 points Equal
Thx. for playing!
Burger guy had the nod then pink slime showed up.Computer has porn and it does not clog the arteries.
I take it thats 1 for C.G making it
1 points B.G. 1 points C.G. 1 points Equal
Thx. for playing!
My pleasure.
What would have a greater impact if they were extinct?
No, just which is of more use to Society.
computer guy. I can make my own hamburgers.
I'll trade you a computer guy and a burger flipper for a hunter, a butcher and a farmer.......:)
Bah, a hunter that can't clean his own kill isn't worth trading for.
How about a hunter, a farmer and a... uh... shelter-maker.
1 points B.G. 2 points C.G.
Thx. for playing!
The question is wrong. Try this question: Who is more valuable, a computer guy or a FARMER. Now tabulate answers.
A burger flipper is almost worthless.
People are not equal. That is just a fact. Some people are short some are tall, some are born with rich parents and some are born in a slum. Some folks are really smart and some can make music come from a violin that will make you cry.
Some people make contributions that are of greater benefit to society than others.
Is there anyone that will argue that Martin Luther King contributed more to society than James Earl Ray?
Can you clarify that last line please.
So you agree that people make unequal contributions to society?
No, I don't agree, x can = y, apples = oranges, man = ant, No more importance to the world, no less.
So the contributions made to the world by King and the Ray were equal?
Only when you consider the martyr effect, Ray gave us King Jr. in a way that propelled his causes beyond which might never have been.
Ray deprived a wife of her husband, children of their father, a church of their pastor, and the world of the first black US president. All that and untold contributions from a brave and honorable man.
People are not equal.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal. Martin Luther King Jr
King was wrong.
We are not created equal. Just ask the child born with Down Syndrome.
Kids with Down, mostly look happy to me!
But think of equality this way: We are equal in that we are all different. I don't think that because I'm not a Basketball player, my contribution to society is somehow less. Just equal.
The number 7 and the number 5 are different, but they are not equal.
Some people contribute nothing to society some make contributions that same millions of lives.
Just like the numbers 5 and 7 the contributions are different and un-equal.
Yeah but try and take 5 out of the number set. To the set of numbers, the one has no more importance than the other. To all possible solutions the number 5 comes in handy exactly the same amount of times as the number 7. Keep trying!
Look, if you want to think your better than everyone else thats your business, I'm just saying, it's not true.
So in your analysis the contributions to society by James Earl Ray and Martin Luther King were Equal?
How about Mother Theresa and Adolf Hitler? Mahatma Gandhi and Saddam Hussein?
There are in fact many people that have a net negative effect on society while others provide great benefit.
I can't see the logic in pretending that everyone makes an equal contribution to the betterment of mankind.
Shit Head. We are all equally deserving of a quality and loving and healthy life as is possible. Go fuck your self in private - your public display is sickening.
Can we live without the insults?
The question is: are we all equal? Are we all the same height? Are we all Asian? Can we all play professional basketball or first chair violin with the NY Philharmonic?
The answer is unarguably no. We are not all equal.
The question posed "was who is more important to society?"
People confuse the term Jefferson used and King echoed "created equal" with "being equal" Jefferson was talking about equal rights. We should all have the same right to peruse happiness.
In Europe your right to education and access to knowledge and some services depended on you "class" or "station". Jefferson's contention was that in this new country, the United States of America, we would all be considered to be created with an equal right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This idea was very important to Franklin, Washington, Adams and the others.
Franklin created the first public library, first public hospital, first pubic science center, and many other public institutions. At the same time, Franklin believed "The constitution only grants you equal right to pursue happiness, you have to catch it yourself."
While is is true that we all deserve the same opportunities and freedoms, we do not all have the same importantce. Since we can all flip our own burgers that is not a very inportant skill to contribute to society.
Plumbers have a skill that less people have but everyone needs so I would say a plumber is more important to soceity (unless you like shitting in the woods)
Even less people can succesfully remove your appendix before it bursts so I would say a doctor is more important than a plumber. I can shit in the woods but I cannot remove my own infected appendix.
Now if the guy flipping burgers is contributing to society in some other way and providing a service that we really need I would increace his inporatance to society factor.
We live in a comparable society however. Our 'modern' society is nothing more than an Economic Feudal government controlled by the industrial military complex. Education, Healthcare, our very hope for a future are tied to the economic 'station' we are born into. I am sure that someone will tout the various success stories of people making something of themselves from nothing and not letting their 'station' hold them back. But, in reality those successes are rare. For every millionaire entrepreneur that was born in the ghetto there are thousands and thousands of people still stuck there, or worse buried there. I believe that Franklin (and Paine who is much more influential than given credit) is right that you have to go catch it yourself. However, our Government should not be in the business of stacking the deck against you. I equate our current form of government to a baseball game. The Government is the umpires and they are blatantly calling everything in favor of the 1% because they have been paid off. The only difference is, we can't forfeit and move on to the next game. We are stuck struggling. Sure we may score a run now and then. But, we are so far behind it doesn't matter.
I believe it has more to do with social environment than the actual money. If you parents did not go to college, or study in HS, they are less likely to encourage your to do your homework or study hard.
To say that the government supports the 1% over the poor is blatantly false. Let's take a concrete example in NJ. The spending per pupil in the poorest districts is more than twice that of the average and wealthy districts.
The two poorest districts received the most funding per pupil Newark $24,000 and Camden $23,356 and the state average is $16,491 and wealthy districts like Clinton spent $12,340 and Bernardsville $12,042
Something besides money is the answer. Something needs to change in the way we teach inner city kids. They need to be encouraged to want to learn, want to come to school. I do not know the answer but it is not what we are doing in public schools today. Not much has changes in 50 years.
True just throwing money at a small segment of the problem will not solve it. That does not negate the idea that the government does indeed support the 1% over the poor as you state.
All the things that favor a good environment for education are missing with the poor. The government favors single parent households.... can't get social services otherwise. Single parent households provide only half at best of the love and care that children need, plus provide a poor example of what a family should be. This gets perpetuated through generations.
The governments drug policies are based on prohibition which drives the price of illegal drugs up. This gives rise to an underground economy that pushes the idea of fast money if you can handle a gun. Who wants to work their way through high school only to land a job flipping burgers, when you can join a gang and make relatively big dollars quickly?
These are just a few examples... but I think you can see what I'm saying.
All of this came about because of junglemonkeez's assertion that all of those different professions should be paid the same, because all of those people are just as important to society.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-myth-of-hard-work/
The mere suggestion seems to reveal a world view where a paycheck is something handed to a person by society as a reward for contributing. An extremely left-wing mentality, where the government is synonymous with society, and it controls the distribution of wealth based on egalitarian ideals.
Of course most of us realize that it doesn't work that way. A paycheck is not a reward from the government for being born, it's compensation for work done to create value for an enterprise. The more value that a worker can create, or the more scarce his skill set, as you described, the more compensation the worker can demand. A person who can't command a high salary based on those merits might naturally fantasize about a system where the government mandates a "fair" distribution of income to everybody, so that the playground bullies don't end up with more candy than the nice kids. But that's not how our world works.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Now if we were to head out to Montana and create a new society where we live off the land without any technology, the computer guy would be less important to that society. I would hope if he went along he would develop appropriate skills.
To build this new society you would want a doctor, a hunter, an architect/engineer, a carpenter, an herbalist, a botanist... Neither a burger guy or a computer guy would have much "importance to society". If I could only pick ten people to bring they would not be on my list.
It is no more extreme than the right-wing mentality you talk of - that it is okay to prey on the weak and have a social darwinism world where all the bullies with no ethics and moral standards end up pushing others around. That is far more crazy in my book, and less human to boot.
That's not a right-wing mentality, that's just how the world works. Competition is the name of the game, and people who compete better end up getting paid more. That's not a right-wing fantasy, that's reality.
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As long as we continue to find ways to make 'others' inferior, trampling on 'others' rights will never end.
We are all equal in our right to life and the benefits of an advanced civilization. Keep spouting shit and keep expecting insults.
Bitch!!! (?) Bastard!!!! OH - Hell - Fucking waste of space. Look in the mirror when you consider undeserving.
The rights that we enjoy come from our humanity not our equality.
How do insults and profanity change the fact that some people are taller than you or better at math?
Of course people do not contribute equally to society - example - the back riders who cash in on the contributions of others - you know - like the greedy corrupt white collar criminals of wallstreet or the profiteering fossil fuel business or profiteering arms manufacturers or profiteering purchasing agents or the profiteering banks and their lovely debt slave charge cards or the health care & Insurance profiteers.
Yes there are many who not only do not contribute but at the same time they siphon off the contributions of others.
Yep there is more than one way to look at worth and contribution.
Agreed.
Some folks make great collateral contributions to society in the process of pursuing self interest. Bill Gates and Jack Kilby come to mind.
Has no relevance to who deserves to have the best quality of life that our advanced civilization can offer. The frills such as 1,000 dollar suits and 5 star restaurants and all of the other BS can be left to those who have the money for such shit. Quality of life has nothing to do with affording the excesses of life. Go snort a pound of coke and pretend you are a wallstreet big snot (shot). Bitch.
The question was are people equal, not what do people deserve.
Another question was do all people contribute to society equally. The answer to that is also no. In fact some people (take the King - Ray example) are a net negative on society.
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The Compurger guy
A person who produces $50K in services and receives $50K in wages is not beneficial at all. He provides no net benefit. A fruit tree that requires 100 Lbs of fertilizer to produce 100 Lbs of fruit is worthless because it provides no net benefit.
The most beneficial workers in society are those who are underpaid for the services they provide. The least beneficial are those who are overpaid for their services. In order for some to be overpaid, some must be underpaid.
Bill Gates worth billions or Thomas Jefferson bankrupt. Who was more beneficial?
Wrong units for comparison. 100 lbs of fertilizer need not necessarily be worth 100lbs of fruits. The correct comparison would be - $100 worth of fertilizer and $100 worth of fruits.
That's the problem with Occutards. You guys don't understand even the most basic math or logic. Wonder why that is.
The point of the analogy is to make a completely non monetary comparison. So who do you think is worth more, Bill Gates or Thomas Jeffferson?
Whatever the point may be, you cannot compare value of different substances in terms of their weight. Is 1 lbs of gold as vaulable as 1 lbs of iron?
As to who I think is worth more, frankly my opinion in this is inconsequential. Besides, I am not sure what you mean by 'worth'.
By worth I mean who was more beneficial to society.
Is there any point in making such comparison? These were two ppl who belonged to two different eras and did good in their own way. In this case of course, Thomas Jefferson was 'more beneficial' but so what? Had there been no Gates we might not have known personal computing the way it's today.
Is there any point in sitting here judging relative importance of people? And whose judgment is correct? Was Steve Jobs more important than Gates? Was George Washinton more important than Thomas Jefferson? Who decides and who is correct? More importantly, whats the point of it?
Ask a vegetarian.
Ask the Amish.
Society can and has existed without either one.
I don't think seven plus billion people would live on this earth with heat, running water, light, entertainment etc. without computers. While some people are vegans most people just don't seem able to handle that. If you could show me how seven billion Amish would make iton this planet today I'd be all for it. I don't think it's possible though.
clean water, shelter, food, air, are required for "living"-everything else is comfort or ease. People live on what they have available and the human race would continue of all computers and hamburgers disappeared tomorrow.
There are too many of us to be supported without technology now. There is no going back to a simpler, cleaner life having just the essentials.
There are plenty of us who can survive without technology. This may come as a shock to you, but people do it every day. And when the grid goes down, those who cannot survive without it will suffer and die. The human race will continue without them.
Chaos, death, roaming bands killing for food, farmers starving because they spend all their time defending land instead of farming it, survivalists in bunkers rationing the last of their freeze dried meal packets. It all makes for a great apocalypse action movie but it wasn't my point.
Yes a few could survive without technology, and yes the world might be far better off with a population of a few million people instead of a few billion. However, if the majority don't wish to simply go away and quietly die then they need technology. For most of the world's population the choice is death or the complex society we currently have.
Well Betsy, millions and billions of people want "comfort and ease." And hot running water, and heat in the cold, and light to read by, and television, and cinema, and , and, and...
I hope they get to KEEP what they WANT to keep. I hope the world is not reduced to finding out the difference between a WANT and a need.
Is living a long life without much physical pain, with mental stimulation, physical exercise, discovery, love, friendship a want or a need?
ALL of those things are possible without today's technology. If you don't know that, I'm sorry for you.
There are seven billion people on this earth heading to at least ten billions not too long from now. Can they be fed, sheltered, housed, clothed, and have the things they want as well without technology? I don't think so.
I'll take that as a no vote
You should take it as saying that asking such a simplistic question without any qualifiers as to what you mean by "important to society" is a rather pointless exercise.
ok, no answer got it!
He's referring to this conversation:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-myth-of-hard-work/#comment-730911
All men are created Equal, or their not. You all have to decide for yourselves!
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A Heads-Up For The Quislings
To "DKAtoday": What we don't know with certainty yet is who's paying you and your accomplices to subvert this forum - ostensibly for the OWS defiant - to co-opt them back into the flock of Demopublican compliant. We are painfully aware that we will never turn the lambs responsible for "99%" of the postings here into lions. But for the sake of the 1 in 100 that MIGHT raise their woolly heads, open their eyes and grow a pair, we cannot allow partisan operatives like YOU to reassure them that voting for the lesser of two corporate-controlled evils is an "exercise in democracy". You are a traitor to everything OWS stands for, "DKAtoday". And when the time is right, your protective veil of anonymity will be lifted. It was pierced several days ago. In the interim, I suggest you Google the word "Quisling".
P.S. Getting your accomplices to "ban" us once or one thousand times will change nothing.
I know everyone has a different point of view and not everyone will see things as I do. But we must encourage people who see things different than we do to participate or it is we who close our minds off to the possibility that we don't know everything.
I may not agree with all they have to say, but I will defend his right to say it.
Luv U 2.
Quisling?
Examples of QUISLING
Origin of QUISLING Vidkun Quisling †1945 Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis First Known Use: 1940 Related to QUISLING Synonyms: apostate, backstabber, betrayer, double-crosser, double-dealer, Judas, traitor, recreant, serpent, snake, turncoat
Funny.
Yeah.
Sounds just like you and your blind marching crew of greedy corrupt criminal supporters.
Good one.
Thanks for raising your hand and waving for those who might not have recognized you yet.
OH - BTW this is OWS.org I think they would likely get rid of me if I were the enemy of the movements against greed corruption and crime.
OH & BTW - my posts and comments are available for any one to review who would like to take the time and look them up.
It's all about supply & demand of the skill set. How many people can flip burgers vs.. how many can program a computer. If you value both the same - you will have more burger flippers and no programmers. Econ 101
I can understand how this kind of posts are a manifestation of your inferiority complex and that you are unable to deal with the failure that your entire life is.
You want to think that your $10/hr job makes you as much important as someone who makes $120k a year. Well, good for you, you are at the right place. There are many losers here like yourself who you scratch your back.
Keep saying this to yourself. May be at least you will start believing it.
I'm guessing you're the 120K/year guy. He may be a loser and less of a person, but he's certainly nicer and more polite. So,hmmm... who could I do without?... let me think...
120k/yr? God I am not that poor.
You got the punctuation wrong again. Let me fix it for you:
120k/yr? God, I am. Not that poor.
There. That expresses your point of view better.
No i don't think so.
Poor in other ways than monetary, perhaps? I hope not, but that is how you come across.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Who is to judge? You? Why?
I hope you are not poor in other ways. And, I'm no judge, I'm just telling you that that is how you come across. You come across as someone who lacks compassion and empathy and who is full of hubris and who is judgmental of others.
You are judgemental too, aren't you? Yes, I know how I come across. I come across as arrogant, every bit like the caricature of a banker/corporate that you have in mind. When I see people here blaming their failures entirely on someone else, I just can't help it. when i see people here proposing their 'grand unified solution for world peace' without understand a thing about economics, I just can't help it.
I understand. But, to say you aren't as "poor" as someone who earns a mere $120k per year, well that's just yuck, to be honest. Half of all Americans earn less than $26k so I guess you just look down on them all. I just don't value people the way you do so it bothers me that you come here and try to make people feel bad about their situation. There is much more to a human being than how "successful" they are materially. That is actually, imho, one of the least important ways to measure a man.
Hey that was just me being smug. Pardon me for that. My first job made around $110k actually. I do feel bad about their situation but I also think, and I may be wrong, that much of it is their own doing.
I don't think money is the only yardstick for success. I would rather prefer to be someone who made a difference to society (in my case through a new software) and I would prefer people to know me by that rather than how much money I have or don't have. I would, as Steve Jobs said, want to create a smal tiny weeny dent in the universe.
I'm not impressed by Steve Jobs, no offense. He had to write a book in order for his children to "know" him. Pretty sad. And, look how Apple employees in China are treated. And, crap, I miss record albums and big speakers. Kids today have no idea how great it was to listen to music on a real stereo. The technological improvement is questionable and definitely not necessary and definitely a huge drain on family income.
I like gramaphone records. And yes, Apple products are a little too expensive.
My dad would have slapped me if he read my "$120/yr' comment. I guess I am a little too smug.
You are a classic ass wipe
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truth hurts. Does it not?
Truth is you a afraid of the new world.
a new world where chronic losers like you will drive a Ferrari and people like me will serve you coffee? Yeah, right. I am soooooo frightened of that.
PS: I actually did serve coffee to make money during undergrad.
Dont drive a ferrari drive a Ford.Glad you went to grad school my youngest is doinig that now.You Are Not Special or above anyone.Enjoy the ride and stop with the Chicken little attitude.
I never said I am special just a bit successful. My best wishes to your youngest kid for his studies and career.
Yes, that's the fantasy that is at the core of all of these various proposals that everybody should be paid the same regardless of what they do. People who have not been successful in the real world like to fantasize about an alternate reality where they can be successful simply by being born. A world where everything is handed to them, and they're not at a disadvantage compared to over-achievers.
Believe it or not, the reality is you can hand some over or they'll just take it! The World as it exists, that you created.
I have read your posts. I would suggest another planet for your experiment but sadly, I don't see how you will ever have enough money to get there. Don't take too many supplies with your little group because you won't need them.
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Hmm, the guy who makes 120k year worth more than the guy who makes 60k...doesn't it depend on what the guy making 60k does?
After all, the guy who makes sure your toilets continue to flush probably doesn't make the mega bucks...nor does the guy who picks up your trash...but let those toilets not flush or the trash start piling up the value of those two goes up immeasurably.
Define worth? If you mean financial 'worth', may be yes. If you mean 'worth' as 'value of human life', they are both equal. If you mean 'worth' as their 'contribution to society', it depends.
I am not for a second saying people who make less are any way lesser human beings. My father made less right before retirement than what I did in my first job. I even served coffee to make extra bucks during college.
Quotes from Monetarist,
here we see the true side, "You want to think that your $10/hr job makes you as much important as someone who makes $120k a year. Well, good for you, you are at the right place. There are many losers here like yourself who you scratch your back."
and the face saving side of monetarist, "I am not for a second saying people who make less are any way lesser human beings"
this is called having your cake and eating it too.
Value is or at least should be more of a sliding scale...as I pointed out, most of us never much think about the trash guy or the guy who works making sure the drains work, at least not most of the time, but when those things aren't working, then suddenly those two skills are of great value and just maybe for a moment we appreciate them.
Yes we do appreciate them. But their skills are not as valuable as that of a programmer or manager or banker or doctor or lawyer. If the trash guy doesn't come for a day, I can take out the trash but if the doctor is not available I can't examine and operate myself.
Yeah, that's what NY City thought a several years ago...they learned different.
The only way to be valuable and vital is to become a doctor, but then.....if everybody becomes doctors, exactly who will take out the trash?
Isn't it accurate to simply say we need people to perform medical work equally as much as we need people to perform sanitorial work, but we reward those who engage in more challenging, demanding work with higher pay. Thus, the trash guy is every bit as vital to the well being of an organization.
But you seem to be saying the trash guy is expendable and unimportant because you could do his job. Yes, you could fill in for him for one day, but if you had to fill in for him everyday you would actually end up doing his job (why) because you know it is vital and valuable.
I understand your point about skilled and unskilled. Do you get my point about seeing the value in doing unskilled labor that affords the doctor the time and energy required to concentrate on saving lives, and not taking out the trash.
The trash guy isn't doing the service out of his/her love for the society. He/she is doing it because they probably are not capable enough for anything else. And neither are doctors doing any charity work by being doctors, they get paid pretty darn well for their service.
The trash is just 'much more easily' expendable than a doctor. That's the difference. In much the same way I am far more easily expendable than the CEO of my company.
I do understand that the reason the doctor can concerntrate on his work is because the trash guys does his. Which is why every individual and every occupation is important for the society (the reason I can do my work and write these forum posts without worry about my bank balance or doing trades online is because somewhere some fund manager is managing my money and making it grow, not always ;-) )
Trash guys are probably not capable enough for anything else???.......I can think of no impartial or sound reason for someone to come to that conclusion.
For no reason I can fathom, except spite, you go out of your way to belittle another's worth. True, a trash guy will never command the same air of authority and value as a doctor, but that does not give anyone a right to condescend and strip away their dignity with stupid remarks.
If you truly believe that every person is your equal and none are a lesser human being, then you would treat a trash guy with the same dignity you would want given to you.
Equal.